TEDxEastEnd
Juno Mac: The laws that sex workers really want
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Everyone has an opinion about how to legislate sex work (whether to legalize it, ban it or even tax it) ... but what do workers themselves think would work best? Activist Juno Mac explains four legal models that are being used around the world and shows us the model that she believes will work best to keep sex workers safe and offer greater self-determination. "If you care about gender equality or poverty or migration or public health, then sex worker rights matter to you," she says. "Make space for us in your movements." (Adult themes)
Juno Mac - Sex worker and activist
Juno Mac campaigns for better working conditions for sex workers by fighting criminalization and supporting public education projects around issues relating to sex worker rights. Full bio
Juno Mac campaigns for better working conditions for sex workers by fighting criminalization and supporting public education projects around issues relating to sex worker rights. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I want to talk about sex for money.
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I'm not like most of the people
you'll have heard speaking
you'll have heard speaking
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about prostitution before.
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I'm not a police officer
or a social worker.
or a social worker.
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I'm not an academic,
a journalist or a politician.
a journalist or a politician.
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And as you'll probably have
picked up from Maryam's blurb,
picked up from Maryam's blurb,
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I'm not a nun, either.
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(Laughter)
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Most of those people would tell you
that selling sex is degrading;
that selling sex is degrading;
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that no one would ever choose to do it;
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that it's dangerous;
women get abused and killed.
women get abused and killed.
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In fact, most of those people would say,
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"There should be a law against it!"
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Maybe that sounds reasonable to you.
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It sounded reasonable to me
until the closing months of 2009,
until the closing months of 2009,
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when I was working two dead-end,
minimum-wage jobs.
minimum-wage jobs.
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Every month my wages would just
replenish my overdraft.
replenish my overdraft.
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I was exhausted and my life
was going nowhere.
was going nowhere.
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01:02
Like many others before me,
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I decided sex for money
was a better option.
was a better option.
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Now don't get me wrong --
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I would have loved
to have won the lottery instead.
to have won the lottery instead.
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But it wasn't going
to happen anytime soon,
to happen anytime soon,
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and my rent needed paying.
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So I signed up for my first
shift in a brothel.
shift in a brothel.
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In the years that have passed,
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I've had a lot of time to think.
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I've reconsidered the ideas
I once had about prostitution.
I once had about prostitution.
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I've given a lot of thought to consent
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and the nature of work under capitalism.
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I've thought about gender inequality
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and the sexual and reproductive
labor of women.
labor of women.
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I've experienced exploitation
and violence at work.
and violence at work.
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I've thought about what's needed
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to protect other sex workers
from these things.
from these things.
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Maybe you've thought about them, too.
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In this talk,
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I'll take you through
the four main legal approaches
the four main legal approaches
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applied to sex work throughout the world,
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and explain why they don't work;
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why prohibiting the sex industry
actually exacerbates every harm
actually exacerbates every harm
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that sex workers are vulnerable to.
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Then I'm going tell you about what we,
as sex workers, actually want.
as sex workers, actually want.
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The first approach
is full criminalization.
is full criminalization.
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Half the world,
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including Russia, South Africa
and most of the US,
and most of the US,
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regulates sex work by criminalizing
everyone involved.
everyone involved.
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So that's seller, buyer and third parties.
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Lawmakers in these countries
apparently hope
apparently hope
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that the fear of getting arrested
will deter people from selling sex.
will deter people from selling sex.
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But if you're forced to choose
between obeying the law
between obeying the law
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and feeding yourself or your family,
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you're going to do the work anyway,
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and take the risk.
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Criminalization is a trap.
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It's hard to get a conventional job
when you have a criminal record.
when you have a criminal record.
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Potential employers won't hire you.
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Assuming you still need money,
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you'll stay in the more flexible,
informal economy.
informal economy.
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The law forces you to keep selling sex,
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which is the exact opposite
of its intended effect.
of its intended effect.
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Being criminalized leaves you exposed
to mistreatment by the state itself.
to mistreatment by the state itself.
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In many places you may be coerced
into paying a bribe
into paying a bribe
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or even into having sex
with a police officer
with a police officer
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to avoid arrest.
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Police and prison guards
in Cambodia, for example,
in Cambodia, for example,
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have been documented
subjecting sex workers
subjecting sex workers
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to what can only be described as torture:
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threats at gunpoint,
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beatings, electric shocks, rape
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and denial of food.
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Another worrying thing:
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if you're selling sex in places
like Kenya, South Africa or New York,
like Kenya, South Africa or New York,
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a police officer can arrest you
if you're caught carrying condoms,
if you're caught carrying condoms,
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because condoms can legally be used
as evidence that you're selling sex.
as evidence that you're selling sex.
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Obviously, this increases HIV risk.
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Imagine knowing if you're busted
carrying condoms,
carrying condoms,
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it'll be used against you.
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It's a pretty strong incentive
to leave them at home, right?
to leave them at home, right?
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Sex workers working in these places
are forced to make a tough choice
are forced to make a tough choice
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between risking arrest
or having risky sex.
or having risky sex.
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What would you choose?
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Would you pack condoms to go to work?
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How about if you're worried
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the police officer would rape you
when he got you in the van?
when he got you in the van?
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The second approach to regulating
sex work seen in these countries
sex work seen in these countries
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is partial criminalization,
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where the buying and selling
of sex are legal,
of sex are legal,
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but surrounding activities,
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like brothel-keeping or soliciting
on the street, are banned.
on the street, are banned.
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Laws like these --
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we have them in the UK and in France --
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essentially say to us sex workers,
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"Hey, we don't mind you selling sex,
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just make sure it's done
behind closed doors
behind closed doors
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and all alone."
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And brothel-keeping, by the way,
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is defined as just two or more
sex workers working together.
sex workers working together.
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Making that illegal means
that many of us work alone,
that many of us work alone,
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which obviously makes us
vulnerable to violent offenders.
vulnerable to violent offenders.
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But we're also vulnerable
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if we choose to break the law
by working together.
by working together.
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A couple of years ago,
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a friend of mine was nervous
after she was attacked at work,
after she was attacked at work,
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so I said that she could see her clients
from my place for a while.
from my place for a while.
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During that time,
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we had another guy turn nasty.
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I told the guy to leave
or I'd call the police.
or I'd call the police.
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And he looked at the two of us and said,
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"You girls can't call the cops.
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You're working together,
this place is illegal."
this place is illegal."
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He was right.
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He eventually left
without getting physically violent,
without getting physically violent,
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but the knowledge
that we were breaking the law
that we were breaking the law
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empowered that man to threaten us.
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He felt confident he'd get away with it.
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The prohibition of street prostitution
also causes more harm
also causes more harm
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than it prevents.
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Firstly, to avoid getting arrested,
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street workers take risks
to avoid detection,
to avoid detection,
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and that means working alone
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or in isolated locations like dark forests
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where they're vulnerable to attack.
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If you're caught selling sex outdoors,
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you pay a fine.
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How do you pay that fine
without going back to the streets?
without going back to the streets?
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It was the need for money
that saw you in the streets
that saw you in the streets
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in the first place.
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And so the fines stack up,
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and you're caught in a vicious cycle
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of selling sex to pay the fines
you got for selling sex.
you got for selling sex.
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Let me tell you about Mariana Popa
who worked in Redbridge, East London.
who worked in Redbridge, East London.
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The street workers on her patch
would normally wait for clients in groups
would normally wait for clients in groups
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for safety in numbers
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and to warn each other about how
to avoid dangerous guys.
to avoid dangerous guys.
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But during a police crackdown
on sex workers and their clients,
on sex workers and their clients,
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she was forced to work alone
to avoid being arrested.
to avoid being arrested.
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She was stabbed to death
in the early hours of October 29, 2013.
in the early hours of October 29, 2013.
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She had been working later than usual
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to try to pay off a fine
she had received for soliciting.
she had received for soliciting.
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So if criminalizing
sex workers hurts them,
sex workers hurts them,
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why not just criminalize
the people who buy sex?
the people who buy sex?
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This is the aim of the third approach
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I want to talk about --
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the Swedish or Nordic
model of sex-work law.
model of sex-work law.
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The idea behind this law
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is that selling sex
is intrinsically harmful
is intrinsically harmful
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and so you're, in fact, helping
sex workers by removing the option.
sex workers by removing the option.
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Despite growing support
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for what's often described
as the "end demand" approach,
as the "end demand" approach,
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there's no evidence that it works.
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There's just as much prostitution
in Sweden as there was before.
in Sweden as there was before.
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Why might that be?
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It's because people selling sex
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often don't have other options for income.
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If you need that money,
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the only effect that a drop
in business is going have
in business is going have
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is to force you to lower your prices
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or offer more risky sexual services.
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If you need to find more clients,
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you might seek the help of a manager.
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So you see, rather than putting a stop
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to what's often descried as pimping,
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a law like this actually gives oxygen
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to potentially abusive third parties.
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To keep safe in my work,
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I try not to take bookings from someone
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who calls me from a withheld number.
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If it's a home or a hotel visit,
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I try to get a full name and details.
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If I worked under the Swedish model,
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a client would be too scared
to give me that information.
to give me that information.
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I might have no other choice
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but to accept a booking
from a man who is untraceable
from a man who is untraceable
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if he later turns out to be violent.
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If you need their money,
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you need to protect
your clients from the police.
your clients from the police.
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If you work outdoors,
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that means working alone
or in isolated locations,
or in isolated locations,
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just as if you were criminalized yourself.
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It might mean getting into cars quicker,
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less negotiating time
means snap decisions.
means snap decisions.
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Is this guy dangerous or just nervous?
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Can you afford to take the risk?
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Can you afford not to?
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Something I'm often hearing is,
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"Prostitution would be fine
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if we made it legal and regulated it."
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We call that approach legalization,
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and it's used by countries
like the Netherlands, Germany
like the Netherlands, Germany
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and Nevada in the US.
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But it's not a great
model for human rights.
model for human rights.
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And in state-controlled prostitution,
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commercial sex can only happen
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in certain legally-designated
areas or venues,
areas or venues,
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and sex workers are made to comply
with special restrictions,
with special restrictions,
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like registration
and forced health checks.
and forced health checks.
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Regulation sounds great on paper,
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but politicians deliberately make
regulation around the sex industry
regulation around the sex industry
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expensive and difficult to comply with.
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It creates a two-tiered system:
legal and illegal work.
legal and illegal work.
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We sometimes call it
"backdoor criminalization."
"backdoor criminalization."
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Rich, well-connected brothel owners
can comply with the regulations,
can comply with the regulations,
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but more marginalized people
find those hoops
find those hoops
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impossible to jump through.
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And even if it's possible in principle,
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getting a license or proper venue
takes time and costs money.
takes time and costs money.
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It's not going to be an option
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for someone who's desperate
and needs money tonight.
and needs money tonight.
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They might be a refugee
or fleeing domestic abuse.
or fleeing domestic abuse.
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In this two-tiered system,
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the most vulnerable people
are forced to work illegally,
are forced to work illegally,
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so they're still exposed to all
the dangers of criminalization
the dangers of criminalization
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I mentioned earlier.
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So.
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It's looking like all attempts to control
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or prevent sex work from happening
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makes things more dangerous
for people selling sex.
for people selling sex.
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Fear of law enforcement makes them
work alone in isolated locations,
work alone in isolated locations,
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and allows clients and even cops
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to get abusive in the knowledge
they'll get away with it.
they'll get away with it.
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Fines and criminal records force
people to keep selling sex,
people to keep selling sex,
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rather than enabling them to stop.
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Crackdowns on buyers drive sellers
to take dangerous risks
to take dangerous risks
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and into the arms
of potentially abusive managers.
of potentially abusive managers.
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These laws also reinforce stigma
and hatred against sex workers.
and hatred against sex workers.
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When France temporarily brought in
the Swedish model two years ago,
the Swedish model two years ago,
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ordinary citizens took it as a cue
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to start carrying out vigilante attacks
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against people working on the street.
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In Sweden, opinion surveys show
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that significantly more people want
sex workers to be arrested now
sex workers to be arrested now
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than before the law was brought in.
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If prohibition is this harmful,
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you might ask, why it so popular?
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Firstly, sex work is and always
has been a survival strategy
has been a survival strategy
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for all kinds of unpopular
minority groups:
minority groups:
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people of color,
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migrants,
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people with disabilities,
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LGBTQ people,
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particularly trans women.
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These are the groups most heavily profiled
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and punished through prohibitionist law.
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I don't think this is an accident.
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These laws have political support
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precisely because they target people
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that voters don't want
to see or know about.
to see or know about.
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Why else might people support prohibition?
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Well, lots of people have
understandable fears about trafficking.
understandable fears about trafficking.
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Folks think that foreign women
kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery
kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery
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can be saved by shutting
a whole industry down.
a whole industry down.
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So let's talk about trafficking.
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Forced labor does occur
in many industries,
in many industries,
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especially those where the workers
are migrants or otherwise vulnerable,
are migrants or otherwise vulnerable,
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and this needs to be addressed.
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But it's best addressed with legislation
targeting those specific abuses,
targeting those specific abuses,
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not an entire industry.
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When 23 undocumented Chinese migrants
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drowned while picking cockles
in Morecambe Bay in 2004,
in Morecambe Bay in 2004,
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there were no calls to outlaw
the entire seafood industry
the entire seafood industry
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to save trafficking victims.
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The solution is clearly to give
workers more legal protections,
workers more legal protections,
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allowing them to resist abuse
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11:04
and report it to authorities
without fear of arrest.
without fear of arrest.
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The way the term trafficking
is thrown around
is thrown around
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implies that all undocumented
migration into prostitution is forced.
migration into prostitution is forced.
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In fact, many migrants
have made a decision,
have made a decision,
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out of economic need,
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to place themselves into the hands
of people smugglers.
of people smugglers.
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11:21
Many do this with the full knowledge
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that they'll be selling sex
when they reach their destination.
when they reach their destination.
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And yes, it can often be the case
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11:28
that these people smugglers
demand exorbitant fees,
demand exorbitant fees,
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coerce migrants into work
they don't want to do
they don't want to do
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and abuse them when they're vulnerable.
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11:36
That's true of prostitution,
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11:37
but it's also true of agricultural work,
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11:39
hospitality work and domestic work.
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11:42
Ultimately, nobody wants
to be forced to do any kind of work,
to be forced to do any kind of work,
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11:46
but that's a risk many migrants
are willing to take,
are willing to take,
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because of what they're leaving behind.
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If people were allowed to migrate legally
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11:52
they wouldn't have to place their lives
into the hands of people smugglers.
into the hands of people smugglers.
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11:56
The problems arise
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11:57
from the criminalization of migration,
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just as they do from the criminalization
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12:01
of sex work itself.
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This is a lesson of history.
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If you try to prohibit something
that people want or need to do,
that people want or need to do,
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12:07
whether that's drinking alcohol
or crossing borders
or crossing borders
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12:11
or getting an abortion
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12:12
or selling sex,
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12:14
you create more problems than you solve.
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12:16
Prohibition barely makes a difference
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12:18
to the amount of people
actually doing those things.
actually doing those things.
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12:20
But it makes a huge difference
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12:22
as to whether or not
they're safe when they do them.
they're safe when they do them.
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12:25
Why else might people support prohibition?
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12:28
As a feminist, I know
that the sex industry is a site
that the sex industry is a site
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12:32
of deeply entrenched social inequality.
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12:35
It's a fact that most buyers of sex
are men with money,
are men with money,
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12:38
and most sellers are women without.
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12:40
You can agree with all that -- I do --
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12:43
and still think prohibition
is a terrible policy.
is a terrible policy.
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12:46
In a better, more equal world,
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12:48
maybe there would be far fewer
people selling sex to survive,
people selling sex to survive,
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12:52
but you can't simply legislate
a better world into existence.
a better world into existence.
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12:56
If someone needs to sell sex
because they're poor
because they're poor
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2486
12:58
or because they're homeless
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1442
13:00
or because they're undocumented
and they can't find legal work,
and they can't find legal work,
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13:03
taking away that option
doesn't make them any less poor
doesn't make them any less poor
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13:06
or house them
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13:08
or change their immigration status.
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13:10
People worry that selling
sex is degrading.
sex is degrading.
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13:13
Ask yourself: is it more degrading
than going hungry
than going hungry
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13:16
or seeing your children go hungry?
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13:19
There's no call to ban rich people
from hiring nannies
from hiring nannies
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13:22
or getting manicures,
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13:23
even though most of the people
doing that labor are poor, migrant women.
doing that labor are poor, migrant women.
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13:27
It's the fact of poor migrant women
selling sex specifically
selling sex specifically
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13:31
that has some feminists uncomfortable.
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13:34
And I can understand
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why the sex industry provokes
strong feelings.
strong feelings.
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People have all kinds
of complicated feelings
of complicated feelings
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13:41
when it comes to sex.
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13:43
But we can't make policy
on the basis of mere feelings,
on the basis of mere feelings,
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13:46
especially not over
the heads of the people
the heads of the people
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13:48
actually effected by those policies.
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13:50
If we get fixated on
the abolition of sex work,
the abolition of sex work,
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13:53
we end up worrying more
about a particular manifestation
about a particular manifestation
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13:55
of gender inequality,
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13:57
rather than about the underlying causes.
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14:00
People get really hung up on the question,
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"Well, would you want
your daughter doing it?"
your daughter doing it?"
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14:05
That's the wrong question.
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14:07
Instead, imagine she is doing it.
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14:10
How safe is she at work tonight?
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14:13
Why isn't she safer?
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14:16
So we've looked at full criminalization,
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14:19
partial criminalization,
the Swedish or Nordic Model
the Swedish or Nordic Model
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14:22
and legalization,
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1190
14:23
and how they all cause harm.
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14:25
Something I never hear asked is:
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14:28
"What do sex workers want?"
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14:31
After all, we're the ones
most affected by these laws.
most affected by these laws.
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2668
14:35
New Zealand decriminalized
sex work in 2003.
sex work in 2003.
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14:38
It's crucial to remember
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14:40
that decriminalization and legalization
are not the same thing.
are not the same thing.
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3451
14:43
Decriminalization means
the removal of laws
the removal of laws
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14:46
that punitively target the sex industry,
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2043
14:48
instead treating sex work
much like any other kind of work.
much like any other kind of work.
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3422
14:52
In New Zealand, people
can work together for safety,
can work together for safety,
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14:55
and employers of sex workers
are accountable to the state.
are accountable to the state.
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14:57
A sex worker can refuse
to see a client at any time,
to see a client at any time,
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15:00
for any reason,
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15:02
and 96 percent of street workers
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2474
15:04
report that they feel the law
protects their rights.
protects their rights.
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3141
15:07
New Zealand hasn't actually
seen an increase
seen an increase
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2094
15:09
in the amount of people doing sex work,
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2111
15:12
but decriminalizing it
has made it a lot safer.
has made it a lot safer.
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2624
15:15
But the lesson from New Zealand
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1577
15:16
isn't just that its particular
legislation is good,
legislation is good,
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2397
15:19
but that crucially,
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15:20
it was written in collaboration
with sex workers;
with sex workers;
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15:22
namely, the New Zealand
Prostitutes' Collective.
Prostitutes' Collective.
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2309
15:25
When it came to making sex work safer,
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2329
15:27
they were ready to hear it straight
from sex workers themselves.
from sex workers themselves.
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3189
15:31
Here in the UK,
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1150
15:32
I'm part of sex worker-led groups
like the Sex Worker Open University
like the Sex Worker Open University
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3418
15:35
and the English Collective of Prostitutes.
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2095
15:37
And we form part of a global movement
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1795
15:39
demanding decriminalization
and self-determination.
and self-determination.
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3460
15:43
The universal symbol of our movement
is the red umbrella.
is the red umbrella.
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15:46
We're supported in our demands
by global bodies like UNAIDS,
by global bodies like UNAIDS,
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3101
15:49
the World Health Organization
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1600
15:51
and Amnesty International.
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1386
15:52
But we need more allies.
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15:55
If you care about gender equality
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2336
15:57
or poverty or migration or public health,
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2796
16:00
then sex worker rights matter to you.
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2504
16:03
Make space for us in your movements.
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2023
16:05
That means not only listening
to sex workers when we speak
to sex workers when we speak
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3236
16:08
but amplifying our voices.
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956662
2001
16:11
Resist those who silence us,
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2121
16:13
those who say that a prostitute
is either too victimized,
is either too victimized,
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3179
16:16
too damaged to know
what's best for herself,
what's best for herself,
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2646
16:19
or else too privileged
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967237
1736
16:20
and too removed from real hardship,
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2188
16:23
not representative of the millions
of voiceless victims.
of voiceless victims.
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3380
16:27
This distinction between victim
and empowered is imaginary.
and empowered is imaginary.
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4803
16:32
It exists purely to discredit sex workers
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2453
16:35
and make it easy to ignore us.
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1943
16:37
No doubt many of you work for a living.
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2192
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Well, sex work is work, too.
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1721
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Just like you,
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1156
16:44
some of us like our jobs,
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1606
16:45
some of us hate them.
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1401
16:47
Ultimately, most of us
have mixed feelings.
have mixed feelings.
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2643
16:51
But how we feel about our work
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2406
16:54
isn't the point.
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1174
16:56
And how others feel
about our work certainly isn't.
about our work certainly isn't.
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3018
17:00
What's important is that we have
the right to work safely
the right to work safely
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2748
17:03
and on our own terms.
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1308
17:04
Sex workers are real people.
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1875
17:06
We've had complicated experiences
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2180
17:09
and complicated responses
to those experiences.
to those experiences.
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3055
17:13
But our demands are not complicated.
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2776
17:16
You can ask expensive
escorts in New York City,
escorts in New York City,
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1024451
2797
17:19
brothel workers in Cambodia,
street workers in South Africa
street workers in South Africa
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2938
17:22
and every girl on the roster
at my old job in Soho,
at my old job in Soho,
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1030234
3119
17:25
and they will all tell you the same thing.
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17:27
You can speak to millions of sex workers
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2241
17:30
and countless sex work-led organizations.
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2457
17:32
We want full decriminalization
and labor rights as workers.
and labor rights as workers.
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3970
17:36
I'm just one sex worker
on the stage today,
on the stage today,
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2316
17:39
but I'm bringing a message
from all over the world.
from all over the world.
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2570
17:41
Thank you.
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1168
17:43
(Applause)
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6373
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Juno Mac - Sex worker and activistJuno Mac campaigns for better working conditions for sex workers by fighting criminalization and supporting public education projects around issues relating to sex worker rights.
Why you should listen
Juno Mac is a sex worker and activist with the Sex Worker Open University (SWOU), a sex worker-led collective with branches in London, Leeds and Glasgow. SWOU is focussed on advocacy, campaigning, cultural events and community support for sex workers.
Through their organizing, SWOU activists support each other through stigma and isolation, demand better working conditions by fighting criminalization and provide public education around issues relating to sex worker rights. Mac's activist work with SWOU has included delivering workshops in universities, political lobbying and campaigning, consulting with human rights organisations (including Amnesty International), appearances on radio and TV, and taking part in public panel discussions at festivals and conferences.
Mac has also curated an exhibition of sex worker art, contributed to magazines and a live storytelling night, facilitated skill-sharing and support spaces for fellow sex workers, and helped to organise SWOU's Open Conference of The Advancement of Sex Worker Rights 2015.
Juno Mac | Speaker | TED.com