ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Frans de Waal - Primatologist
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate.

Why you should listen

Dutch/American biologist and ethologist Frans de Waal draws parallels between primate and human behavior, from peacemaking and morality to culture. Looking at human society through the lens of animal behavior, de Waal's first book, Chimpanzee Politics (1982), compares the schmoozing and scheming of chimpanzees involved in power struggles with that of human politicians. Named one of the 100 Most Influential People Today by Time Magazine, de Waal has written hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific articles, and his popular books have been translated in over 20 languages. He is a professor in Emory University's psychology department and Director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, in Atlanta. His next book is on animal and human emotions, entitled Mama's Last Hug (Norton, 2019).

More profile about the speaker
Frans de Waal | Speaker | TED.com
TEDxPeachtree

Frans de Waal: Moral behavior in animals

Filmed:
4,770,589 views

Empathy, cooperation, fairness and reciprocity -- caring about the well-being of others seems like a very human trait. But Frans de Waal shares some surprising videos of behavioral tests, on primates and other mammals, that show how many of these moral traits all of us share.
- Primatologist
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:15
I was born in Den Bosch,
0
0
2000
Nacín en Den Bosch
00:17
where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.
1
2000
3000
onde o pintor Hieronymus Bosch
tomou o seu nome
00:20
And so I've always been very fond of this painter
2
5000
2000
por iso sempre me sentín
moi preto del,
00:22
who lived and worked in the 15th century.
3
7000
3000
que viviu e traballou no século XV.
00:25
And what is interesting about him in relation to morality
4
10000
2000
O interesante entre el e a moralidade
00:27
is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,
5
12000
3000
é que viviu cando a influencia
da relixión minguaba
00:30
and he was sort of wondering, I think,
6
15000
2000
e foi unha persoa que se preguntaba
00:32
what would happen with society
7
17000
2000
que lle sucedería á sociedade
00:34
if there was no religion or if there was less religion.
8
19000
3000
se non houbese relixión ou
se non a houbese.
00:37
And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"
9
22000
3000
E por iso pintou o seu famoso
cadro: "o Xardín das Delicias"
00:40
which some have interpreted
10
25000
2000
que algúns intrerpretan
00:42
as being humanity before the Fall,
11
27000
2000
a humanidade sen perder Inocencia
00:44
or being humanity without any Fall at all.
12
29000
3000
ou a humanidade sen
ningunha perda en absoluto.
00:47
And so it makes you wonder,
13
32000
2000
E iso fai que se pregunten,
00:49
what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,
14
34000
3000
que tería sucedido se non probaramos
da froita da sabedoría,
00:52
and what kind of morality would we have?
15
37000
3000
que tipo de moralidade teriamos?
00:55
Much later, as a student,
16
40000
2000
Máis tarde, como estudante,
00:57
I went to a very different garden,
17
42000
2000
fun a un xardín moi diferente,
00:59
a zoological garden in Arnhem
18
44000
3000
o xardín zoolóxico de Arnhem
01:02
where we keep chimpanzees.
19
47000
2000
onde viven chimpancés.
01:04
This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
20
49000
2000
Este son eu moi novo cun bebé chimpancé.
01:06
(Laughter)
21
51000
3000
(Risas)
01:09
And I discovered there
22
54000
2000
E alí descubrín
01:11
that the chimpanzees are very power hungry and wrote a book about it.
23
56000
3000
que eles teñen fame de poder
e escribín un libro sobre iso.
01:14
And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research
24
59000
3000
Daquela a atención na investigación animal
01:17
was on aggression and competition.
25
62000
2000
estaba na agresión e na competencia.
01:19
I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom,
26
64000
2000
Retratei unha imaxe do reino animal,
01:21
and humanity included,
27
66000
2000
e incluín a Humanidade,
01:23
was that deep down we are competitors,
28
68000
2000
eramos no fondo competidores,
01:25
we are aggressive,
29
70000
2000
agresivos,
01:27
we're all out for our own profit basically.
30
72000
3000
movémonos polo noso propio beneficio.
01:30
This is the launch of my book.
31
75000
2000
Este é o inicio do meu libro.
01:32
I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,
32
77000
2000
Non sei se os chimpacés o leron,
01:34
but they surely seemed interested in the book.
33
79000
3000
mais pareceron interesados no libro.
01:39
Now in the process
34
84000
2000
Durante o proceso
01:41
of doing all this work on power and dominance
35
86000
2000
todo este traballo sobre o poder
01:43
and aggression and so on,
36
88000
2000
a dominación, a agresión...
01:45
I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.
37
90000
3000
descubrín que os chimpancés se reconcilian
despois das liortas.
01:48
And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.
38
93000
3000
O que ven aquí son dous machos
que acaban de rifar.
01:51
They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.
39
96000
3000
Rematan na copa da árbore,
sostendo a man doutro.
01:54
And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree
40
99000
3000
Segundos máis tarde fixen a foto,
xuntos na galla da árbore
01:57
and they kissed and embraced each other.
41
102000
2000
bicándose e apertándose un a outro.
01:59
Now this is very interesting
42
104000
2000
Isto é moi interesante
02:01
because at the time everything was about competition and aggression,
43
106000
3000
porque daquela todo era arredor
da competencia e da agresión,
02:04
and so it wouldn't make any sense.
44
109000
2000
así que non tería sentido.
02:06
The only thing that matters is that you win or that you lose.
45
111000
2000
O único que importa é se gañas ou perdes.
02:08
But why would you reconcile after a fight?
46
113000
2000
Por que reconciliarse
despois de rifar?
02:10
That doesn't make any sense.
47
115000
2000
Non ten sentido.
02:12
This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.
48
117000
3000
Esta é a forma na que os bonobos o fan.
Usan o sexo para todo.
02:15
And so they also reconcile with sex.
49
120000
2000
Así que tamén para se reconciliaren.
02:17
But the principle is exactly the same.
50
122000
2000
Mais o principio é exactamente o mesmo.
02:19
The principle is that you have
51
124000
2000
A máxima é que tes
02:21
a valuable relationship
52
126000
2000
unha relación valiosa
02:23
that is damaged by conflict,
53
128000
2000
que está danada por un conflito,
02:25
so you need to do something about it.
54
130000
2000
así que necesitas facer algo.
02:27
So my whole picture of the animal kingdom,
55
132000
2000
Daquela a miña idea do reino animal,
02:29
and including humans also,
56
134000
2000
e inclúo tamén aos humanos,
02:31
started to change at that time.
57
136000
2000
empezou a mudar naquela altura.
02:33
So we have this image
58
138000
2000
Ben, temos esta imaxe
02:35
in political science, economics, the humanities,
59
140000
2000
en ciencias políticas, económicas,
02:37
philosophy for that matter,
60
142000
2000
humanidades e filosofía,
02:39
that man is a wolf to man.
61
144000
2000
que o home é un lobo para o home.
02:41
And so deep down our nature's actually nasty.
62
146000
3000
Así que o máis profundo da nosa
natureza é noxenta.
02:44
I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.
63
149000
3000
Eu creo que a imaxe é moi inxusta co lobo.
02:47
The wolf is, after all,
64
152000
2000
O lobo
02:49
a very cooperative animal.
65
154000
2000
é un animal moi cooperativo.
02:51
And that's why many of you have a dog at home,
66
156000
2000
Razón pola que teñen un can na casa,
02:53
which has all these characteristics also.
67
158000
2000
que ademais ten estas características.
02:55
And it's really unfair to humanity,
68
160000
2000
E é moi inxusto coa humanidade,
02:57
because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic
69
162000
4000
porque a humanidade é sen dúbida
moito máis cooperativa e empática
03:01
than given credit for.
70
166000
2000
do que se cre.
03:03
So I started getting interested in those issues
71
168000
2000
Empecei a interesarme por eses temas
03:05
and studying that in other animals.
72
170000
2000
e a estudalos noutros animais.
03:07
So these are the pillars of morality.
73
172000
2000
Estes son os alicerces da moralidade.
03:09
If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"
74
174000
4000
Se preguntas a alguén: "en que
se basa a moralidade?"
03:13
these are the two factors that always come out.
75
178000
2000
os dous factores que sempre aparecen son
03:15
One is reciprocity,
76
180000
2000
a reciprocidade,
03:17
and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.
77
182000
3000
asociada a ela está a noción de xustiza
e o senso de equidade.
03:20
And the other one is empathy and compassion.
78
185000
2000
E a outra é a empatía e a compaixón.
03:22
And human morality is more than this,
79
187000
3000
E a moralidade humana é máis ca isto,
03:25
but if you would remove these two pillars,
80
190000
2000
pero se retiran estes dous piares,
03:27
there would be not much remaining I think.
81
192000
2000
non ficaría, creo, moito.
03:29
And so they're absolutely essential.
82
194000
2000
Polo que son absolutamente esenciais.
03:31
So let me give you a few examples here.
83
196000
2000
Permítanme aportarlles dous exemplos.
03:33
This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center
84
198000
2000
Este vídeo vello do Yerkes
Primate Center
03:35
where they train chimpanzees to cooperate.
85
200000
3000
onde adestraban chimpacés para cooperar.
03:38
So this is already about a hundred years ago
86
203000
3000
Aproximadamente hai uns cen anos
03:41
that we were doing experiments on cooperation.
87
206000
3000
que estamos a facer experimentos
sobre a cooperación.
03:44
What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,
88
209000
3000
O que teñen aquí son dous chimpacés novos
que teñen unha caixa,
03:47
and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.
89
212000
3000
a caixa é demasiado pesada para que
un chimpancé turra só dela.
03:50
And of course, there's food on the box.
90
215000
2000
Por suposto, dentro da caixa hai comida,
03:52
Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.
91
217000
2000
senón non turrarían tan forte.
03:54
And so they're bringing in the box.
92
219000
2000
Aquí vémolos turrando da caixa.
03:56
And you can see that they're synchronized.
93
221000
2000
E poden observar que están sincronizados.
03:58
You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.
94
223000
3000
Poden ver que traballan xuntos,
turran ao mesmo tempo.
04:01
It's already a big advance over many other animals
95
226000
3000
É un gran avance con respecto
a outros animais
04:04
who wouldn't be able to do that.
96
229000
2000
incapaces de facer tal cousa.
04:06
And now you're going to get a more interesting picture,
97
231000
2000
Agora temos unha imaxe máis interesante,
04:08
because now one of the two chimps has been fed.
98
233000
3000
porque un dos chimpancés recibe comida.
04:11
So one of the two is not really interested
99
236000
2000
Aquí un dos dous xa non quere colaborar
04:13
in the task anymore.
100
238000
3000
no asunto
04:16
(Laughter)
101
241000
3000
(Risas)
04:23
(Laughter)
102
248000
5000
(Risas)
04:34
(Laughter)
103
259000
3000
(Risas)
04:50
Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
104
275000
3000
Agora ollen o que pasa ao final.
04:56
(Laughter)
105
281000
2000
(Risas)
05:07
He takes basically everything.
106
292000
2000
Adónase basicamente de todo.
05:09
(Laughter)
107
294000
3000
(Risas)
05:12
So there are two interesting parts about this.
108
297000
2000
Hai dúas cousas interesantes aquí.
05:14
One is that the chimp on the right
109
299000
2000
Un é que o chimpacé da dereita
05:16
has a full understanding he needs the partner --
110
301000
2000
entende que necesita un parceiro,
05:18
so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.
111
303000
2000
e entende que necesita cooperación.
05:20
The second one is that the partner is willing to work
112
305000
3000
O segundo ten intención de traballar
05:23
even though he's not interested in the food.
113
308000
2000
aínda que non está interesado na comida.
05:25
Why would that be? Well that probably has to do with reciprocity.
114
310000
3000
Poida que teña que ver coa reciprocidade.
05:28
There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals
115
313000
2000
Hai evidencias en primates
05:30
that they return favors.
116
315000
2000
e outros animais que devolven os favores.
05:32
So he will get a return favor
117
317000
2000
Conseguirá que lle devolva o favor
05:34
at some point in the future.
118
319000
2000
máis adiante.
05:36
And so that's how this all operates.
119
321000
2000
Así como todo isto funciona.
05:38
We do the same task with elephants.
120
323000
2000
Fixemos o mesmo con elefantes.
05:40
Now with elephants, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.
121
325000
3000
É moi perigoso traballarmos con elefantes.
05:43
Another problem with elephants
122
328000
2000
Outro problema con eles
05:45
is that you cannot make an apparatus
123
330000
2000
é que non podes facer aparatos
05:47
that is too heavy for a single elephant.
124
332000
2000
xa que son demasiado pesados.
05:49
Now you can probably make it,
125
334000
2000
Agora podes probablemente facelo,
05:51
but it's going to be a pretty flimsy apparatus I think.
126
336000
2000
mais acho que será un trebello moi fráxil.
05:53
And so what we did in that case --
127
338000
2000
Así que o que fixemos nesta ocasión
05:55
we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --
128
340000
3000
foi levar adiante estes estudos
en Tailandia por Josh Plotnik
05:58
is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.
129
343000
3000
e facer un aparato circular que ten
unha única corda
06:01
And if you pull on this side of the rope,
130
346000
2000
e se turras deste lado da corda,
06:03
the rope disappears on the other side.
131
348000
2000
a corda desaparece doutro lado.
06:05
So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time and pull.
132
350000
3000
Dous elefantes teñen que turraren delas
á vez.
06:08
Otherwise nothing is going to happen
133
353000
2000
Se non o fan nada sucederá
06:10
and the rope disappears.
134
355000
2000
e a corda desaparece.
06:12
And the first tape you're going to see
135
357000
2000
Na primeira gravación que van ver
06:14
is two elephants who are released together
136
359000
2000
hai dous elefantes que ceibamos a un tempo
06:16
arrive at the apparatus.
137
361000
2000
e chegan até o trebello.
06:18
The apparatus is on the left with food on it.
138
363000
3000
O aparato está á esquerda con comida.
06:21
And so they come together, they arrive together,
139
366000
3000
Van xuntos, chegan xuntos.
06:24
they pick it up together and they pull together.
140
369000
2000
Recollen e turran xuntos pola corda.
06:26
So it's actually fairly simple for them.
141
371000
3000
Para eles é algo moi sinxelo.
06:30
There they are.
142
375000
2000
Velaquí.
06:39
And so that's how they bring it in.
143
384000
2000
E así é como o traen.
06:41
But now we're going to make it more difficult.
144
386000
2000
Mais agora ímolo facer máis difícil.
06:43
Because the whole purpose of this experiment
145
388000
2000
Porque o propósito deste experimento
06:45
is to see how well they understand cooperation.
146
390000
2000
é saber o ben que entenden a cooperación.
06:47
Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
147
392000
3000
Enténdena tan ben como os chimpancés,
por exemplo?
06:50
And so what we do in the next step
148
395000
2000
O noso seguinte paso é
06:52
is we release one elephant before the other,
149
397000
2000
ceibar un elefante antes ca o outro,
06:54
and that elephant needs to be smart enough
150
399000
2000
e ese elefante necesita ser intelixente
06:56
to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --
151
401000
2000
para ficar alí e agardar sen turrar
06:58
because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.
152
403000
3000
porque se turra, desaparece
e todo o experimento remata.
07:01
Now this elephant does something illegal
153
406000
2000
Agora este elefante fai algo ilegal
07:03
that we did not teach it.
154
408000
2000
que nós non lle ensinamos.
07:05
But it shows the understanding that he has,
155
410000
2000
Mais explica o entendemento que ten,
07:07
because he puts his big foot on the rope,
156
412000
3000
porque pon a súa pata sobre a corda,
fica sobre ela
07:10
stands on the rope and waits there for the other,
157
415000
2000
e espera até que o outro chega,
07:12
and then the other is going to do all the work for him.
158
417000
3000
así o outro fará todo o traballo por el.
07:15
So it's what we call freeloading.
159
420000
3000
Iso é que chamamos "a sopa boba".
07:18
(Laughter)
160
423000
2000
(Risas)
07:20
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.
161
425000
3000
Isto amosa a intelixencia que teñen.
07:23
They develop several of these alternative techniques
162
428000
3000
Desenvolven varias destas
técnicas alternativas
07:26
that we did not approve of necessarily.
163
431000
3000
que non aprobamos necesariamente.
07:29
So the other elephant is now coming
164
434000
5000
Agora o outro elefante aparece
07:34
and is going to pull it in.
165
439000
3000
e disponse a turrar da corda
07:53
Now look at the other. The other doesn't forget to eat, of course.
166
458000
3000
Agora olla ao outro. O outro non
se esquece de comer.
07:56
(Laughter)
167
461000
4000
(Risas)
08:00
This was the cooperation, reciprocity part.
168
465000
2000
Esta foi a cooperación, a reciprocidade.
08:02
Now something on empathy.
169
467000
2000
Agora algo sobre a empatía.
08:04
Empathy is my main topic at the moment of research.
170
469000
2000
A empatía é a miña especialidade-
08:06
And empathy has sort of two qualities.
171
471000
2000
A empatía ten dúas cualidades.
08:08
One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition:
172
473000
3000
Unha é entender ao outro. A definición
habitual é a abilidade
08:11
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
173
476000
2000
de entender e compartir os sentimentos.
08:13
And the emotional part.
174
478000
2000
E a parte emocional.
08:15
And so empathy has basically two channels.
175
480000
2000
A empatía basicamente
ten dúas canles.
08:17
One is the body channel.
176
482000
2000
Unha é o corpo como canle.
08:19
If you talk with a sad person,
177
484000
2000
Se falas cunha persoa triste,
08:21
you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,
178
486000
3000
adoptarás unha expresión e postura triste,
08:24
and before you know it you feel sad.
179
489000
2000
e antes de que o saibas.
08:26
And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,
180
491000
3000
Esa é a canle corporal
da empatía emocional
08:29
which many animals have.
181
494000
2000
que teñen os animais.
08:31
Your average dog has that also.
182
496000
2000
O voso can tamén a ten.
08:33
That's actually why people keep mammals in the home
183
498000
2000
Razón pola que temos mamíferos
nas casas
08:35
and not turtles or snakes or something like that
184
500000
2000
e non tartarugas ou cobras
ou cousas
08:37
who don't have that kind of empathy.
185
502000
2000
que non teñen esa clase de empatía.
08:39
And then there's a cognitive channel,
186
504000
2000
E temos tamén a canle cognitiva.
08:41
which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.
187
506000
2000
que é máis que captar a perspectiva doutro
08:43
And that's more limited.
188
508000
2000
e iso é máis limitado.
08:45
There's few animals -- I think elephants and apes can do that kind of thing --
189
510000
2000
Hai poucos animais
08:47
but there are very few animals who can do that.
190
512000
3000
quen de facelo. Os elefantes e
primates poden.
08:50
So synchronization,
191
515000
2000
A sincronización,
08:52
which is part of that whole empathy mechanism
192
517000
2000
que é unha parte do mecanismo
da empatía
08:54
is a very old one in the animal kingdom.
193
519000
2000
é moi antiga no reino animal.
08:56
And in humans, of course, we can study that
194
521000
2000
e en humanos podemos estudala
08:58
with yawn contagion.
195
523000
2000
co bocexo contaxioso.
09:00
Humans yawn when others yawn.
196
525000
2000
Os humanos bocexamos cando outros bocexan.
09:02
And it's related to empathy.
197
527000
2000
e está relacionado coa empatía.
09:04
It activates the same areas in the brain.
198
529000
2000
Activa a mesma área do cerebro.
09:06
Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion
199
531000
2000
Sabemos que quen ten
o bocexo contaxioso
09:08
are highly empathic.
200
533000
2000
é moi empáticos.
09:10
People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,
201
535000
2000
Por exemplo, os nenos autistas
09:12
they don't have yawn contagion.
202
537000
2000
non teñen bocexo contaxioso.
09:14
So it is connected.
203
539000
2000
Así que hai unha conexión.
09:16
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.
204
541000
3000
E o estudamos nos chimpances poñéndoos
ante unha cabeza animada.
09:19
So that's what you see on the upper-left,
205
544000
2000
O que se ve na esquina
superior esquerda
09:21
an animated head that yawns.
206
546000
2000
é unha cabeza animada que bocexa
09:23
And there's a chimpanzee watching,
207
548000
2000
e hai un chimpacé ollando,
09:25
an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen
208
550000
3000
un chimpancé de carne e óso que
olla unha pantalla
09:28
on which we play these animations.
209
553000
3000
sobre o que se ven estas animacións.
09:35
(Laughter)
210
560000
2000
(Risas)
09:37
So yawn contagion
211
562000
2000
Bocexar é contaxioso
09:39
that you're probably all familiar with --
212
564000
2000
algo co que estamos familiarizados.
09:41
and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --
213
566000
3000
E se cadra vós comezan
a bocexar axiña.
09:44
is something that we share with other animals.
214
569000
3000
É algo que compartimos con outros animais
09:47
And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization
215
572000
3000
e está relacionado co canal
corporal da sincronización
09:50
that underlies empathy
216
575000
2000
que está á súa vez relacionado coa empatía
09:52
and that is universal in the mammals basically.
217
577000
3000
e que é universal entre os mamíferos.
09:55
Now we also study more complex expressions. This is consolation.
218
580000
3000
Ademais estudamos expresións
máis complexas. O consolo.
09:58
This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,
219
583000
3000
Este é un chimpacé macho que rifou
e está berrando,
10:01
and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him
220
586000
2000
e un novo achégase e rodéao co seu brazo
10:03
and calms him down.
221
588000
2000
e acóugao.
10:05
That's consolation. It's very similar to human consolation.
222
590000
3000
Iso é o consolo. É moi semellante
ao consolo humano.
10:08
And consolation behavior,
223
593000
3000
E o comportamento do consolo
10:11
it's empathy driven.
224
596000
2000
está impulsado pola empatía.
10:13
Actually the way to study empathy in human children
225
598000
3000
Hoxe se estuda a empatía nos nenos
10:16
is to instruct a family member to act distressed,
226
601000
2000
facendo que un membro da familia
10:18
and then they see what young children do.
227
603000
2000
actúe angustiado e así ven que fan.
10:20
And so it is related to empathy,
228
605000
2000
E iso está relacionado coa empatía,
10:22
and that's the kind of expressions we look at.
229
607000
3000
e ese é o tipo de expresión que vemos.
10:25
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.
230
610000
3000
Hai pouco publicamos un experimento
10:28
It's on altruism and chimpanzees
231
613000
3000
sobre o altruísmo e os chimpacés
10:31
where the question is, do chimpanzees care
232
616000
2000
e pregúntase: preocúpanse
os chimpancés
10:33
about the welfare of somebody else?
233
618000
2000
sobre o benestar doutro?
10:35
And for decades it had been assumed
234
620000
2000
Durante décadas asumimos
10:37
that only humans can do that,
235
622000
2000
que só o podemos facer os humanos,
10:39
that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.
236
624000
3000
que só os humanos nos preocupamos
do benestar dos demais.
10:42
Now we did a very simple experiment.
237
627000
2000
Fixemos un experimento moi sinxelo.
10:44
We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,
238
629000
3000
Fixémolo con chimpancés que viven
en Lawrenceville,
10:47
in the field station of Yerkes.
239
632000
2000
nunha estación de campo en Yerkes.
10:49
And so that's how they live.
240
634000
2000
E así é como viven.
10:51
And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.
241
636000
3000
Chamámolos para que entren nun cuarto
e experimentamos con eles
10:54
In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side.
242
639000
2000
Neste caso, poñemos un
a carón doutro.
10:56
and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.
243
641000
3000
Un ten unha bolsa con fichas, as pezas
teñen diferentes sensos.
10:59
One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,
244
644000
3000
Unha das fichas alimenta só
ao parceiro que escolle,
11:02
the other one feeds both of them.
245
647000
2000
a outro alimenta a ámbolos dous.
11:04
So this is a study we did with Vicky Horner.
246
649000
3000
Este é un estudo que fixemos
con Vicky Horner.
11:08
And here you have the two color tokens.
247
653000
2000
Aquí tedes as fichas de dúas cores.
11:10
So they have a whole bucket full of them.
248
655000
2000
Así que teñen unha bolsa enteira delas.
11:12
And they have to pick one of the two colors.
249
657000
3000
E teñen que escoller unha
entre as dúas cores.
11:15
You will see how that goes.
250
660000
3000
Agora veredes como funciona.
11:18
So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,
251
663000
3000
Se este chimpancé fai a escolla egoísta,
11:21
which is the red token in this case,
252
666000
3000
que é neste caso a ficha vermella,
11:24
he needs to give it to us.
253
669000
2000
necesita devolvérnola.
11:26
So we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,
254
671000
3000
Nós poñémola sobre a mesa
onde hai dúas recompensas,
11:29
but in this case only the one on the right gets food.
255
674000
3000
neste caso só o da dereita obtén comida.
11:32
The one on the left walks away because she knows already.
256
677000
2000
A que está á dereita marcha porque xa sabe
11:34
that this is not a good test for her.
257
679000
3000
que este non é un bo resultado para ela.
11:37
Then the next one is the pro-social token.
258
682000
2000
Entón o próximo é a ficha pro-social.
11:39
So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --
259
684000
3000
Aquel que escolle, esa é
a parte interesante,
11:42
for the one who makes the choices,
260
687000
2000
para quen escolle,
11:44
it doesn't really matter.
261
689000
2000
non ten neste caso importancia.
11:46
So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.
262
691000
3000
Así que entrega unha ficha pro-social
e ambos reciben comida.
11:49
So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.
263
694000
3000
O que escolle sempre obtén
unha recompensa.
11:52
So it doesn't matter whatsoever.
264
697000
2000
polo que quen escolla non ten relevancia.
11:54
And she should actually be choosing blindly.
265
699000
2000
E ela debería entón escoller a cegas.
11:56
But what we find
266
701000
2000
Mais o que nos atopamos
11:58
is that they prefer the pro-social token.
267
703000
2000
é que prefiren a ficha pro-social.
12:00
So this is the 50 percent line that's the random expectation.
268
705000
3000
Esta é a liña cincuenta por cento que
é o esperable no azar.
12:03
And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
269
708000
3000
Se o compañeiro atrae a atención
sobre el escollen máis,
12:06
And if the partner puts pressure on them --
270
711000
3000
e tamén se o compañeiro lles mete presión.
12:09
so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --
271
714000
3000
Se o compañeiro comeza
a cuspir e intimidalos
12:12
then the choices go down.
272
717000
3000
entón diminúen as escollas.
12:15
It's as if they're saying,
273
720000
2000
É como se dixesen,
12:17
"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."
274
722000
2000
"se non te comportas non
serei pro-social"
12:19
And this is what happens without a partner,
275
724000
2000
E isto é o que pasa sen compañeiro,
12:21
when there's no partner sitting there.
276
726000
2000
cando non hai un parceiro sentado aí.
12:23
And so we found that the chimpanzees do care
277
728000
2000
Agora sabemos que os chimpacés
12:25
about the well-being of somebody else --
278
730000
2000
se preocupan de que os demais estean ben
12:27
especially, these are other members of their own group.
279
732000
3000
especialmente, se son membros
do seu mesmo grupo.
12:30
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you
280
735000
3000
O experimento final que quero expoñer
12:33
is our fairness study.
281
738000
2000
é o noso estudo sobre a equidade.
12:35
And so this became a very famous study.
282
740000
3000
Esto chegou a ser un estudo moi famoso.
12:38
And there's now many more,
283
743000
2000
Agora hai moitos máis,
12:40
because after we did this about 10 years ago,
284
745000
2000
despois de facermos
isto hai dez anos,
12:42
it became very well known.
285
747000
2000
chegou a ser moi coñecido.
12:44
And we did that originally with capuchin monkeys.
286
749000
2000
O primeiro foi con monos capuchinos.
12:46
And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.
287
751000
3000
Vou amosarlles o noso experimento.
12:49
It has now been done with dogs and with birds
288
754000
3000
Foi feito con cans e paxaros
12:52
and with chimpanzees.
289
757000
2000
e con chimpacés.
12:54
But with Sarah Brosnan we started out with capuchin monkeys.
290
759000
4000
Mais con Sarah Brosnan empezamos
con monos capuchinos.
12:58
So what we did
291
763000
2000
Así que o que fixemos foi
13:00
is we put two capuchin monkeys side-by-side.
292
765000
2000
poñer dous capuchinos
cóbado con cóbado.
13:02
Again, these animals, they live in a group, they know each other.
293
767000
2000
Viven en grupo
e coñécense entre eles.
13:04
We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.
294
769000
3000
Tirámolos do grupo e puxémolos
nunha cámara de experimentación.
13:07
And there's a very simple task
295
772000
2000
E hai unha tarefa moi simple
13:09
that they need to do.
296
774000
2000
que necesitan facer.
13:11
And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,
297
776000
3000
Se lle dan aos dous cogombro
para faceren a tarefa,
13:14
the two monkeys side-by-side,
298
779000
2000
os dous monos un a carón doutro,
13:16
they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.
299
781000
2000
son capaces de facelo 25 veces seguidas.
13:18
So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,
300
783000
4000
Así que o cogombro, que para min
non é máis que auga,
13:22
but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.
301
787000
3000
para eles é algo estupendo.
13:25
Now if you give the partner grapes --
302
790000
3000
Agora se lle dan uvas ao compañeiro,
13:28
the food preferences of my capuchin monkeys
303
793000
2000
a comida preferida dos capuchinos,
13:30
correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --
304
795000
3000
corresponde exactamente cos prezos
no supermercado
13:33
and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --
305
798000
3000
polo tanto se lle dan uvas, unha comida
moito mellor
13:36
then you create inequity between them.
306
801000
3000
entón crean desigualdade entre eles.
13:39
So that's the experiment we did.
307
804000
2000
Ben este é o experimento que fixemos.
13:41
Recently we videotaped it with new monkeys who'd never done the task,
308
806000
3000
Hai pouco gravámolo con novos monos
que non fixeran esta tarefa
13:44
thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,
309
809000
2000
pensando que reaccionarían
máis forte
13:46
and that turned out to be right.
310
811000
2000
e tiñamos razón.
13:48
The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.
311
813000
2000
O da esquerda é o que recibe o cogombro.
13:50
The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.
312
815000
3000
O da dereita recibe uvas.
13:53
The one who gets cucumber,
313
818000
2000
O que recibe cogombro,
13:55
note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.
314
820000
2000
vexan como a primeira peza está ben.
13:57
The first piece she eats.
315
822000
3000
O primeiro anaco o come.
14:00
Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.
316
825000
3000
Agora o outro recibe unha uva,
verán que lle sucede.
14:03
So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.
317
828000
3000
Entréganos unha pedra. Esa é a tarefa.
14:06
And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.
318
831000
3000
E nós dámoslles un anaco
de cogombro e o comen.
14:09
The other one needs to give a rock to us.
319
834000
3000
O outro debe darnos unha pedra
14:12
And that's what she does.
320
837000
3000
e así o fai.
14:15
And she gets a grape and she eats it.
321
840000
3000
E ela consegue unha uva e a come.
14:18
The other one sees that.
322
843000
2000
O outro observa.
14:20
She gives a rock to us now,
323
845000
2000
Dános unha pedra
14:22
gets, again, cucumber.
324
847000
3000
e recibe, outra vez, cogombro.
14:27
(Laughter)
325
852000
15000
(Risas)
14:42
She tests a rock now against the wall.
326
867000
3000
Proba a pedra contra a parede.
14:45
She needs to give it to us.
327
870000
2000
Ten que entregárnola.
14:47
And she gets cucumber again.
328
872000
3000
E recibe cogombro outra vez.
14:52
(Laughter)
329
877000
4000
(Risas)
14:58
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
330
883000
4000
O que aquí vemos é a protesta
contra Wall Street.
15:02
(Laughter)
331
887000
3000
(Risas)
15:05
(Applause)
332
890000
3000
(Aplauso)
15:08
Let me tell you --
333
893000
2000
Permítanme,
15:10
I still have two minutes left, let me tell you a funny story about this.
334
895000
2000
permítanme contar unha historia graciosa.
15:12
This study became very famous
335
897000
2000
Este estudo chegou a ser moi famoso
15:14
and we got a lot of comments,
336
899000
2000
e recibimos moitos comentarios,
15:16
especially anthropologists, economists,
337
901000
2000
en concreto de antropólogos,
economistas,
15:18
philosophers.
338
903000
2000
filósofos.
15:20
They didn't like this at all.
339
905000
2000
Non lles gustou en absoluto.
15:22
Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,
340
907000
3000
Porque dicidiran nas súas mentes, creo,
15:25
that fairness is a very complex issue
341
910000
2000
que a equidade é un asunto moi complexo
15:27
and that animals cannot have it.
342
912000
2000
e que os animais non a teñen.
15:29
And so one philosopher even wrote us
343
914000
2000
Incluso un filósofo escribiunos
15:31
that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness
344
916000
3000
que é imposible que un mono
teña a noción da equidade
15:34
because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
345
919000
3000
porque a equidade foi inventada
durante a Revolución Francesa.
15:37
(Laughter)
346
922000
2000
(Risas)
15:39
Now another one wrote a whole chapter
347
924000
3000
Outro escribiu un capítulo enteiro
15:42
saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness
348
927000
4000
dicindo que crería que todo isto
tiña algo que ver coa equidade
15:46
if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.
349
931000
2000
se o que obtiña as uvas renunciase a elas.
15:48
Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan,
350
933000
2000
Agora o chiste esta en que Sarah Brosnan,
15:50
who's been doing this with chimpanzees,
351
935000
2000
que leva fai isto mesmo con chimpancés,
15:52
had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees
352
937000
2000
tiña unha parella de combinacións deles
15:54
where, indeed, the one who would get the grape would refuse the grape
353
939000
3000
onde, sen dúbida, aquel que recibía
a uva refugábaa
15:57
until the other guy also got a grape.
354
942000
2000
até que o seu compañeiro obtivese unha.
15:59
So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.
355
944000
3000
Aquí nos achegamos moito á
noción humana de equidade.
16:02
And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for awhile.
356
947000
4000
Acho que os filósofos necesitan repensar
a súa filosofía durante un momento.
16:06
So let me summarize.
357
951000
2000
Resumindo,
16:08
I believe there's an evolved morality.
358
953000
2000
coido que hai unha moralidade evolutiva.
16:10
I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,
359
955000
2000
e que é moito máis do que levamos falado,
16:12
but it would be impossible without these ingredients
360
957000
3000
mais sería imposible sen
estes ingredientes
16:15
that we find in other primates,
361
960000
2000
que atopamos noutros primates,
16:17
which are empathy and consolation,
362
962000
2000
que son a empatía e o consolo,
16:19
pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.
363
964000
3000
as tendencias pro-sociais, a reciprocidade
16:22
And so we work on these particular issues
364
967000
3000
e a noción de xustiza. Traballamos
para ver se podemos
16:25
to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,
365
970000
3000
crear unha moralidade de abaixo a arriba
16:28
without necessarily God and religion involved,
366
973000
2000
sen implicar a Deus e a relixión,
16:30
and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
367
975000
3000
e ver como podemos chegar até
unha moralidade evolutiva
16:33
And I thank you for your attention.
368
978000
3000
Grazas pola súa atención.
16:36
(Applause)
369
981000
9000
(Aplausos)
Translated by Xosé María Moreno
Reviewed by Natalia Outerelo

▲Back to top

ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Frans de Waal - Primatologist
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate.

Why you should listen

Dutch/American biologist and ethologist Frans de Waal draws parallels between primate and human behavior, from peacemaking and morality to culture. Looking at human society through the lens of animal behavior, de Waal's first book, Chimpanzee Politics (1982), compares the schmoozing and scheming of chimpanzees involved in power struggles with that of human politicians. Named one of the 100 Most Influential People Today by Time Magazine, de Waal has written hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific articles, and his popular books have been translated in over 20 languages. He is a professor in Emory University's psychology department and Director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, in Atlanta. His next book is on animal and human emotions, entitled Mama's Last Hug (Norton, 2019).

More profile about the speaker
Frans de Waal | Speaker | TED.com