TED2008
Philip Zimbardo: The psychology of evil
Philip Zimbardo: A psicoloxía do mal
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Philip Zimbardo sabe o fácil que é que a xente boa se volva malvada. Nesta charla comparte información e fotos non publicadas dos xuízos de Abu Ghraib. Pero logo salta ao outro lado: o doado que é converterse nun heroe, e como podemos asumir ese desafío.
Philip Zimbardo - Psychologist
Philip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib. His book The Lucifer Effect explores the nature of evil; now, in his new work, he studies the nature of heroism. Full bio
Philip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib. His book The Lucifer Effect explores the nature of evil; now, in his new work, he studies the nature of heroism. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
Filósofos, dramaturgos, teólogos
00:13
Philosophers, dramatists, theologians
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00:16
have grappled with this question for centuries:
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enfróntanse a esta cuestión
desde hai séculos:
desde hai séculos:
00:18
what makes people go wrong?
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que leva á xente a facer o mal?
00:20
Interestingly, I asked this question when I was a little kid.
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Curiosamente, eu véñome preguntando isto
desde que era un neno.
desde que era un neno.
00:23
When I was a kid growing up in the South Bronx, inner-city ghetto
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Medrei no South Bronx,
un gueto de Nova York,
un gueto de Nova York,
00:25
in New York, I was surrounded by evil,
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e estaba rodeado polo mal,
como todos os nenos
que medran nun barrio marxinal.
que medran nun barrio marxinal.
00:28
as all kids are who grew up in an inner city.
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00:30
And I had friends who were really good kids,
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E tiña amigos
que eran bos rapaces,
que eran bos rapaces,
00:32
who lived out the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde scenario -- Robert Louis Stevenson.
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que facían realidade o Dr. Jekyll
e Mr. Hyde de R.L. Stevenson.
e Mr. Hyde de R.L. Stevenson.
00:36
That is, they took drugs, got in trouble, went to jail.
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Consumían drogas, metíanse en liortas,
ían parar á cadea.
ían parar á cadea.
00:40
Some got killed, and some did it without drug assistance.
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Algúns mataron,
e algúns mesmo o fixeron sen drogarse.
00:44
So when I read Robert Louis Stevenson, that wasn't fiction.
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Así que cando lin a Stevenson,
para min non era ficción.
para min non era ficción.
00:47
The only question is, what was in the juice?
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A única pregunta é,
que había naquel caldo?
que había naquel caldo?
00:48
And more importantly, that line between good and evil --
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E o máis importante:
esa liña entre o ben e o mal
esa liña entre o ben e o mal
00:53
which privileged people like to think is fixed and impermeable,
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--que os privilexiados queren pensar
que é fixa e impermeable,
que é fixa e impermeable,
00:56
with them on the good side, and the others on the bad side --
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con eles no lado bo, e os outros no malo--
00:59
I knew that line was movable, and it was permeable.
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eu sei que é móbil, permeable.
01:02
Good people could be seduced across that line,
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As boas persoas poden verse inducidas
a cruzar a liña,
a cruzar a liña,
e en condicións adecuadas e infrecuentes,
os nenos malos poden recuperarse
os nenos malos poden recuperarse
01:05
and under good and some rare circumstances, bad kids could recover
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01:08
with help, with reform, with rehabilitation.
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con axuda, con corrección,
con rehabilitación.
con rehabilitación.
01:12
So I want to begin with this this wonderful illusion
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Xa que logo, quero empezar
con esta preciosa ilusión
con esta preciosa ilusión
01:14
by [Dutch] artist M.C. Escher.
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do artista holandés M.C. Escher.
Se a miran enfocando no branco,
verán un mundo cheo de anxos.
verán un mundo cheo de anxos.
01:17
If you look at it and focus on the white,
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01:18
what you see is a world full of angels.
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01:20
But let's look more deeply, and as we do,
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Pero miremos con máis atención,
e ao facelo,
e ao facelo,
01:23
what appears is the demons, the devils in the world.
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aparecen os diaños, os demos do mundo.
Isto dinos varias cousas.
01:27
And that tells us several things.
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01:28
One, the world is, was, will always be filled with good and evil,
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Unha, que o mundo está, estivo, e estará
cheo de bondade e de maldade,
cheo de bondade e de maldade,
01:31
because good and evil is the yin and yang of the human condition.
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porque o ben e o mal son o yin e o yang
da condición humana.
da condición humana.
01:34
It tells me something else. If you remember,
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Pero a min dime algo máis.
Como vostedes saben,
o anxo preferido de Deus era Lucifer.
o anxo preferido de Deus era Lucifer.
01:36
God's favorite angel was Lucifer.
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01:39
Apparently, Lucifer means "the light."
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Seica Lucifer significa "Portador da luz".
Significa tamén, nalgún texto,
"luceiro da mañá".
"luceiro da mañá".
01:42
It also means "the morning star," in some scripture.
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01:44
And apparently, he disobeyed God,
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E disque
desobedeceu a Deus,
01:47
and that's the ultimate disobedience to authority.
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o que vén sendo a máxima
desobediencia á autoridade.
desobediencia á autoridade.
01:50
And when he did, Michael, the archangel, was sent
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E cando o fixo, Deus mandou
ao arcanxo Miguel
ao arcanxo Miguel
01:54
to kick him out of heaven along with the other fallen angels.
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para expulsalo do ceo
canda os demais anxos caídos.
canda os demais anxos caídos.
01:57
And so Lucifer descends into hell, becomes Satan,
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E Lucifer baixou aos infernos,
e converteuse en Satán,
e converteuse en Satán,
02:01
becomes the devil, and the force of evil in the universe begins.
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converteuse no demo,
e o mal apareceu no Universo.
e o mal apareceu no Universo.
02:03
Paradoxically, it was God who created hell as a place to store evil.
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Paradoxalmente, Deus foi
quen creou o inferno,
quen creou o inferno,
un lugar onde encerrar o mal.
Non conseguíu mantelo dentro.
02:09
He didn't do a good job of keeping it there though.
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02:10
So, this arc of the cosmic transformation
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Así, este arco da transformación cósmica
do anxo preferido de Deus no demo,
do anxo preferido de Deus no demo,
02:13
of God's favorite angel into the Devil,
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02:15
for me, sets the context for understanding human beings
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para min define o marco
para comprender os seres humanos
para comprender os seres humanos
02:19
who are transformed from good, ordinary people
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que pasan de ser boas persoas, xente
normal, a ser axentes do mal.
normal, a ser axentes do mal.
02:22
into perpetrators of evil.
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02:24
So the Lucifer effect, although it focuses on the negatives --
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O efecto Lucifer,
aínda que se centra no negativo,
aínda que se centra no negativo,
02:28
the negatives that people can become,
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no negativa que pode volverse a xente,
02:31
not the negatives that people are --
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non no negativa que é a xente,
02:32
leads me to a psychological definition. Evil is the exercise of power.
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lévame a unha definición psicolóxica.
O mal é un exercicio de poder.
02:38
And that's the key: it's about power.
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E esta é a chave: isto vai de poder.
02:40
To intentionally harm people psychologically,
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Para danar psicoloxicamente
ás persoas á mantenta,
ás persoas á mantenta,
para mancalas, para destruír
as persoas ou as ideas,
as persoas ou as ideas,
02:44
to hurt people physically, to destroy people mortally, or ideas,
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02:47
and to commit crimes against humanity.
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e para cometer crimes contra a humanidade.
02:51
If you Google "evil," a word that should surely have withered by now,
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Se meten 'mal' en Google, unha palabra
que xa debería estar esgotada,
que xa debería estar esgotada,
02:54
you come up with 136 million hits in a third of a second.
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sairanlles máis de 136 millóns
de entradas en 300 milisegundos.
de entradas en 300 milisegundos.
02:58
A few years ago -- I am sure all of you were shocked, as I was,
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Hai uns poucos anos, seguro que vostedes,
coma min, quedaron conmocionados
coma min, quedaron conmocionados
03:02
with the revelation of American soldiers
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ao saberen que soldados estadounidenses
abusaran de prisioneiros nun lugar estraño
abusaran de prisioneiros nun lugar estraño
03:05
abusing prisoners in a strange place
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03:08
in a controversial war, Abu Ghraib in Iraq.
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nunha guerra controvertida,
Abu Ghraib, en Irak.
Abu Ghraib, en Irak.
03:11
And these were men and women
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Tratábase de homes e mulleres
03:12
who were putting prisoners through unbelievable humiliation.
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que someteron aos prisioneiros
a incribles humillacións.
a incribles humillacións.
Eu quedei conmocionado,
pero non sorprendido,
pero non sorprendido,
03:18
I was shocked, but I wasn't surprised,
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03:19
because I had seen those same visual parallels
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porque xa vira imaxes semellantes
03:22
when I was the prison superintendent of the Stanford Prison Study.
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cando fun supervisor de prisión
no Estudo da Prisión de Stanford.
no Estudo da Prisión de Stanford.
03:25
Immediately the Bush administration military said ... what?
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Que dixo inmediatamente
a Administración militar de Bush?
a Administración militar de Bush?
O que di calquera Administración
cando xorde un escándalo
cando xorde un escándalo
03:28
What all administrations say when there's a scandal.
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03:30
"Don't blame us. It's not the system. It's the few bad apples,
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"Non nos culpen. Non é o sistema.
Son unhas poucas mazás podres,
Son unhas poucas mazás podres,
uns poucos soldados ruíns".
03:34
the few rogue soldiers."
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03:35
My hypothesis is, American soldiers are good, usually.
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A miña hipótese é que os soldados
estadounidenses son, polo xeral, bos.
estadounidenses son, polo xeral, bos.
03:38
Maybe it was the barrel that was bad.
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Se cadra o podre era o cesto.
03:40
But how am I going to -- how am I going to deal with that hypothesis?
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Pero como contrastar esta hipótese?
03:43
I became an expert witness
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Eu actuei como perito para un dos gardas,
03:44
for one of the guards, Sergeant Chip Frederick,
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o sarxento Chip Frederick, e por esa vía,
03:46
and in that position, I had access to the dozen investigative reports.
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tiven acceso a ducias
de informes de investigación.
de informes de investigación.
03:50
I had access to him. I could study him,
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Tiven acceso a el.
Puiden estudalo,
leveino á miña casa, coñecino,
leveino á miña casa, coñecino,
03:54
have him come to my home, get to know him,
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03:55
do psychological analysis to see, was he a good apple or bad apple.
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fíxenlle avaliacións psicolóxicas
para ver se era unha mazá sa ou podre.
para ver se era unha mazá sa ou podre.
03:59
And thirdly, I had access to all of the 1,000 pictures
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E, en terceiro lugar, tiven acceso
á totalidade das 1.000 fotografías
á totalidade das 1.000 fotografías
04:03
that these soldiers took.
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que sacaran os soldados.
Eran fotos de natureza violenta ou sexual.
04:05
These pictures are of a violent or sexual nature.
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04:07
All of them come from the cameras of American soldiers.
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Todas sacadas coas cámaras
dos soldados estadounidenses.
dos soldados estadounidenses.
Porque todo o mundo ten
unha cámara dixital ou un móbil,
unha cámara dixital ou un móbil,
04:11
Because everybody has a digital camera or cell phone camera,
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04:13
they took pictures of everything. More than 1,000.
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sacaron fotos de todo, máis de mil.
04:16
And what I've done is I organized them into various categories.
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E eu organiceinas en varias categorías.
04:18
But these are by United States military police, army reservists.
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Pero isto fixérono policías militares
estadounidenses, reservistas do exército.
estadounidenses, reservistas do exército.
04:24
They are not soldiers prepared for this mission at all.
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Non eran para nada soldados
adestrados para esta misión.
adestrados para esta misión.
04:27
And it all happened in a single place, Tier 1-A, on the night shift.
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E todo isto pasou nun único lugar,
a Galería 1-A,
a Galería 1-A,
na quenda de noite. Por que?
04:32
Why? Tier 1-A was the center for military intelligence.
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A Galería 1-A era o centro
da intelixencia militar.
da intelixencia militar.
04:35
It was the interrogation hold. The CIA was there.
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Era a central de interrogatorios.
Alí estaba a CIA.
E interrogadores da Titan Corporation,
todos alí,
todos alí,
04:39
Interrogators from Titan Corporation, all there,
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04:41
and they're getting no information about the insurgency.
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E non conseguían información
sobre a insurrección.
sobre a insurrección.
Así que presionaban a estes soldados,
04:45
So they're going to put pressure on these soldiers,
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04:46
military police, to cross the line,
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policías militares,
para que cruzaran a liña,
para que cruzaran a liña,
04:49
give them permission to break the will of the enemy,
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déronlles permiso para quebrar
a vontade dos inimigos,
a vontade dos inimigos,
04:52
to prepare them for interrogation, to soften them up,
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para preparalos para os interrogatorios,
para abrandalos,
para abrandalos,
04:54
to take the gloves off. Those are the euphemisms,
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para que quitasen os guantes.
Todo eufemismos,
Todo eufemismos,
04:56
and this is how it was interpreted.
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e así é como se interpretaron.
Entremos nos calabozos.
05:00
Let's go down to that dungeon.
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05:01
(Camera shutter)
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(Son de máquina de escribir)
[Abusos na Prisión de Abu Ghraib, Irak,
2003. Fotografías dos policías militares]
2003. Fotografías dos policías militares]
[Estas imaxes inclúen espidos
e contidos violentos]
e contidos violentos]
(disparo de cámara)
05:38
(Thuds)
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(golpes xordos)
05:45
(Camera shutter)
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(disparos de cámara)
05:59
(Thuds)
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(disparo de cámara)
06:09
(Breathing)
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(respiración)
06:17
(Bells)
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(campás)
06:49
So, pretty horrific.
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Arrepiante.
Esta unha das...
representacións gráficas do mal.
representacións gráficas do mal.
06:52
That's one of the visual illustrations of evil.
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06:55
And it should not have escaped you that
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E non se lles debe escapar que
06:56
the reason I paired the prisoner with his arms out
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a razón de que eu emparellara
ao prisioneiro cos brazos abertos
ao prisioneiro cos brazos abertos
07:00
with Leonardo da Vinci's ode to humanity
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coa oda á humanidade de Leonardo da Vinci
07:03
is that that prisoner was mentally ill.
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é que este prisioneiro era
un enfermo mental.
un enfermo mental.
07:05
That prisoner covered himself with shit every day,
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Cubríase de merda todos os días,
07:07
and they used to have to roll him in dirt so he wouldn't stink.
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Tiñan que rebozalo en lama
para que non fedese.
para que non fedese.
07:10
But the guards ended up calling him "Shit Boy."
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Pero os gardas deron en alcumalo
"Shit Boy" (Mozo Merda)
"Shit Boy" (Mozo Merda)
07:12
What was he doing in that prison
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Que facía este home nunha cadea
en vez de estar nun psiquiátrico?
en vez de estar nun psiquiátrico?
07:14
rather than in some mental institution?
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07:17
In any event, here's former Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.
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En calquera caso, aquí está
o ex-Secretario de Defensa, Rumsfeld.
o ex-Secretario de Defensa, Rumsfeld.
07:20
He comes down and says, "I want to know, who is responsible?
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Baixa á area e di,
"Quero saber quen é o responsable"
"Quero saber quen é o responsable"
07:22
Who are the bad apples?" Well, that's a bad question.
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"Quen son as mazás podres?"
Esta é unha pregunta errónea.
07:25
You have to reframe it and ask, "What is responsible?"
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Tería que reformulala, preguntar,
"Que é o responsable?"
"Que é o responsable?"
07:28
Because "what" could be the who of people,
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"Que" pode ser o "quen" das persoas,
07:30
but it could also be the what of the situation,
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pero pode ser tamén o "que" da situación,
07:32
and obviously that's wrongheaded.
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e, obviamente, está mal formulada.
07:34
So how do psychologists go about understanding
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Como tratan de entender os psicólogos
estas transformacións do carácter humano,
estas transformacións do carácter humano,
07:36
such transformations of human character,
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07:38
if you believe that they were good soldiers
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se pensamos que eran bos soldados
07:40
before they went down to that dungeon?
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antes de entrar naquel alxube?
07:42
There are three ways. The main way is -- it's called dispositional.
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Hai tres formas.
A principal é a denominada disposicional.
A principal é a denominada disposicional.
07:44
We look at what's inside of the person, the bad apples.
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Miramos dentro das persoas,
as mazás podres.
as mazás podres.
07:48
This is the foundation of all of social science,
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Esta é a base de toda ciencia social,
07:51
the foundation of religion, the foundation of war.
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a base da relixión, a base da guerra.
Os psicólogos sociais coma min
imos alén, dicimos: "Si,
imos alén, dicimos: "Si,
07:55
Social psychologists like me come along and say, "Yeah,
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07:57
people are the actors on the stage,
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as persoas son actores no escenario,
07:59
but you'll have to be aware of what that situation is.
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pero temos que ser conscientes
da situación.
da situación.
08:01
Who are the cast of characters? What's the costume?
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Cal é o elenco de personaxes?
Cal é o vestiario?
Cal é o vestiario?
08:04
Is there a stage director?"
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Hai un director de escena?"
08:05
And so we're interested in, what are the external factors
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E deste modo interesámonos
polos factores externos
polos factores externos
08:08
around the individual -- the bad barrel?
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que rodean ao individuo: o cesto podre.
08:10
And social scientists stop there, and they miss the big point
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Os científicos sociais paran aquí
e ignoran o punto crucial
e ignoran o punto crucial
08:13
that I discovered when I became an expert witness for Abu Ghraib.
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que descubrín cando actuei
de perito para o caso Abu Ghraib.
de perito para o caso Abu Ghraib.
08:16
The power is in the system.
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O poder está no sistema.
08:18
The system creates the situation that corrupts the individuals,
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O sistema crea a situación
que corrompe os individuos,
que corrompe os individuos,
08:21
and the system is the legal, political, economic, cultural background.
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e o sistema é o marco legal, político,
económico, cultural.
económico, cultural.
08:26
And this is where the power is of the bad-barrel makers.
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Aí reside o poder
dos que producen cestos podres.
dos que producen cestos podres.
08:29
So if you want to change a person, you've got to change the situation.
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Se queres cambiar unha persoa,
cambia a situación.
cambia a situación.
08:32
If you want to change the situation,
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E para cambiala debes saber
que o poder reside no sistema.
que o poder reside no sistema.
08:33
you've got to know where the power is, in the system.
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08:35
So the Lucifer effect involves understanding
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Así que o efecto Lucifer supón comprender
08:37
human character transformations with these three factors.
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as transformacións do carácter humano
con estes tres factores.
08:43
And it's a dynamic interplay.
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É unha interacción dinámica.
08:44
What do the people bring into the situation?
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Que lle achega a persoa a esta situación?
08:46
What does the situation bring out of them?
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Que saca a situación da persoa?
08:48
And what is the system that creates and maintains that situation?
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E cal é o sistema que crea
e mantén esa situación?
e mantén esa situación?
08:52
So my book, "The Lucifer Effect," recently published, is about,
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O meu libro "O efecto Lucifer" trata de
08:54
how do you understand how good people turn evil?
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explicar como as boas persoas viran malas.
08:57
And it has a lot of detail
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E inclúe moitos detalles
sobre o tema do que lles falo hoxe.
sobre o tema do que lles falo hoxe.
08:58
about what I'm going to talk about today.
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"O efecto Lucifer" do Dr. Z.,
aínda que se centra no mal,
aínda que se centra no mal,
09:01
So Dr. Z's "Lucifer Effect," although it focuses on evil,
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09:04
really is a celebration of the human mind's
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en realidade é unha celebración
da infinita capacidade da mente humana
da infinita capacidade da mente humana
09:06
infinite capacity to make any of us kind or cruel,
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para facer a calquera de nós
bondadoso ou cruel,
bondadoso ou cruel,
09:10
caring or indifferent, creative or destructive,
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solícito ou indiferente,
creativo ou destrutivo,
creativo ou destrutivo,
09:13
and it makes some of us villains.
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para converter a algúns en viláns.
09:15
And the good news story that I'm going to hopefully come to
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E as boas novas que, afortunadamente,
achegarei como remate
achegarei como remate
09:18
at the end is that it makes some of us heroes.
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é que converte a algúns en heroes.
09:20
This is a wonderful cartoon in the New Yorker,
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Esta estupenda viñeta do New Yorker
resume toda a miña charla:
resume toda a miña charla:
09:23
which really summarizes my whole talk:
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09:25
"I'm neither a good cop nor a bad cop, Jerome.
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"Nin son un poli bo
nin un poli malo, Jerome.
nin un poli malo, Jerome.
09:27
Like yourself, I'm a complex amalgam
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Coma ti, son unha mestura complexa
09:29
of positive and negative personality traits
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de trazos de personalidade
positivos e negativos
positivos e negativos
que emerxen ou non, dependendo
das circunstancias."
das circunstancias."
09:32
that emerge or not, depending on the circumstances."
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09:35
(Laughter)
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(Risos)
09:37
There's a study some of you think you know about,
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Hai un estudo do que algúns de vdes.
xa oíron falar,
xa oíron falar,
09:40
but very few people have ever read the story. You watched the movie.
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pero que pouca xente leu.
Vostedes viron a película.
09:44
This is Stanley Milgram, little Jewish kid from the Bronx,
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Este é Stanley Milgram,
un mozo xudeu do Bronx,
un mozo xudeu do Bronx,
09:47
and he asked the question, "Could the Holocaust happen here, now?"
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que se preguntou "Podería producirse
o Holocausto aquí, agora?
o Holocausto aquí, agora?
A xente respondeu: "Non, aquelo foi
a Alemaña nazi, Hitler, xa sabes, 1939".
a Alemaña nazi, Hitler, xa sabes, 1939".
09:51
People say, "No, that's Nazi Germany,
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09:52
that's Hitler, you know, that's 1939."
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09:54
He said, "Yeah, but suppose Hitler asked you,
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E dixo, "Si, pero supón
que Hitler che pregunta,
que Hitler che pregunta,
09:56
'Would you electrocute a stranger?' 'No way, not me, I'm a good person.' "
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"Electrocutarías a un descoñecido?"
"Nunca, eu son unha boa persoa".
"Nunca, eu son unha boa persoa".
10:00
He said, "Why don't we put you in a situation
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El dixo, "Por que non te poñemos
na situación
na situación
10:01
and give you a chance to see what you would do?"
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e che damos a oportunidade
de ver o que farías?"
de ver o que farías?"
10:03
And so what he did was he tested 1,000 ordinary people.
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E así o fixo, puxo a proba
a mil persoas normais.
a mil persoas normais.
10:07
500 New Haven, Connecticut, 500 Bridgeport.
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Cincocentas en New Haven, Connecticut,
Cincocentas en Bridgeport.
Cincocentas en Bridgeport.
10:10
And the ad said, "Psychologists want to understand memory.
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O anuncio dicía, "Psicólogos interesados
no estudo da memoria.
no estudo da memoria.
10:14
We want to improve people's memory,
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Queremos mellorar a memoria,
porque é a chave do éxito".
porque é a chave do éxito".
10:15
because memory is the key to success." OK?
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Vale?
10:18
"We're going to give you five bucks -- four dollars for your time."
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"Pagámosche cinco dólares,
catro dólares polo teu tempo.
catro dólares polo teu tempo.
Non queremos universitarios.
Buscamos homes entre 20 e 50 anos".
Buscamos homes entre 20 e 50 anos".
10:24
And it said, "We don't want college students.
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10:25
We want men between 20 and 50."
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10:27
In the later studies, they ran women.
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Fixeron estudos posteriores con mulleres.
10:28
Ordinary people: barbers, clerks, white-collar people.
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Xente corrente: barbeiros, curas,
administrativos.
administrativos.
10:32
So, you go down, and one of you is going to be a learner,
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Así que empezamos,
un de vostedes será un alumno,
outro será profesor.
outro será profesor.
10:35
and one of you is going to be a teacher.
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10:36
The learner's a genial, middle-aged guy.
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O alumno é un tío simpático,
mediana idade.
mediana idade.
10:38
He gets tied up to the shock apparatus in another room.
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Está enchufado a un xerador de
descargas noutro cuarto.
descargas noutro cuarto.
10:41
The learner could be middle-aged, could be as young as 20.
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Podía ser un home de mediana idade,
ou novo, duns 20 anos.
ou novo, duns 20 anos.
10:44
And one of you is told by the authority, the guy in the lab coat,
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E a un de vostedes unha autoridade,
un tipo con bata branca dilles:
un tipo con bata branca dilles:
10:48
"Your job as teacher is to give this guy material to learn.
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"A súa tarefa como profesor é
darlle material a aprender.
darlle material a aprender.
Se o fai ben, recompensa.
10:51
Gets it right, reward him.
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10:52
Gets it wrong, you press a button on the shock box.
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Se falla, prema un interruptor
no emisor de descargas.
no emisor de descargas.
10:54
The first button is 15 volts. He doesn't even feel it."
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O primeiro interruptor é de 15 volts.
Apenas se sente".
Apenas se sente".
10:58
That's the key. All evil starts with 15 volts.
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Esta é a chave.
A maldade empeza con 15 volts.
11:01
And then the next step is another 15 volts.
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E entón o seguinte paso
son outros 15 volts.
son outros 15 volts.
O problema é que ao final
da serie son 450 volts.
da serie son 450 volts.
11:04
The problem is, at the end of the line, it's 450 volts.
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11:06
And as you go along, the guy is screaming,
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E conforme avanza, o tipo berra.
11:09
"I've got a heart condition! I'm out of here!"
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"Padezo do corazón!
Quero marchar de aquí!"
Quero marchar de aquí!"
11:11
You're a good person. You complain.
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Vostede é boa persoa. Protesta.
"Señor, quen é o responsable
se lle pasa algo?"
se lle pasa algo?"
11:13
"Sir, who's going to be responsible if something happens to him?"
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11:15
The experimenter says, "Don't worry, I will be responsible.
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O experimentador responde,
"Non se preocupe, o responsable son eu".
"Non se preocupe, o responsable son eu".
11:18
Continue, teacher."
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Continúe, profesor".
11:19
And the question is, who would go all the way to 450 volts?
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E a pregunta é: quen seguiría
até os 450 volts?
até os 450 volts?
Teñan en conta que nos 375
11:24
You should notice here, when it gets up to 375,
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11:26
it says, "Danger. Severe Shock."
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indícase"Perigo. Descarga forte".
Chegado a ese punto temos a tripla X.
A pornografía do poder.
A pornografía do poder.
11:28
When it gets up to here, there's "XXX" -- the pornography of power.
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11:31
(Laughter)
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Milgram preguntoulles a 40 psiquiatras,
11:32
So Milgram asks 40 psychiatrists,
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11:33
"What percent of American citizens would go to the end?"
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"Que porcentaxe de estadounidenses
chegaría até o final?"
chegaría até o final?"
Responderon que só o 1 por cento.
11:37
They said only one percent. Because that's sadistic behavior,
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Porque se trata dunha conduta sádica,
e os psiquiatras sabemos
e os psiquiatras sabemos
11:40
and we know, psychiatry knows, only one percent of Americans are sadistic.
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que só o 1 por cento
dos estadounidenses son sádicos.
dos estadounidenses son sádicos.
11:44
OK. Here's the data. They could not be more wrong.
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Vale.
Aquí están os datos.
Non podían equivocarse máis.
Non podían equivocarse máis.
11:48
Two thirds go all the way to 450 volts. This was just one study.
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Dous terzos chegaron aos 450 volts.
Era só un estudo.
11:53
Milgram did more than 16 studies. And look at this.
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Milgram fixo dezaseis máis.
E miren isto.
11:56
In study 16, where you see somebody like you go all the way,
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No estudo 16, onde ven a alguén
coma eles chegar até a fin,
coma eles chegar até a fin,
12:00
90 percent go all the way. In study five, if you see people rebel, 90 percent rebel.
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o 90 por cento chega até alí.
No estudo 5, onde ven
persoas que se rebelan,
persoas que se rebelan,
o 90 por cento rebélase.
12:06
What about women? Study 13 -- no different than men.
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Que pasa coas mulleres?
Estudo 13: non hai diferenzas cos homes.
Estudo 13: non hai diferenzas cos homes.
Así que Milgram cuantificou a maldade
12:10
So Milgram is quantifying evil as the willingness of people
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como a disposición das persoas
12:13
to blindly obey authority, to go all the way to 450 volts.
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a obedecer cegamente á autoridade,
a chegar até os 450 volts.
a chegar até os 450 volts.
12:16
And it's like a dial on human nature.
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Isto é como o dial da natureza humana.
12:18
A dial in a sense that you can make almost everybody totally obedient,
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Un dial en canto que podes facer
que obedeza practicamente todo o mundo,
que obedeza practicamente todo o mundo,
12:23
down to the majority, down to none.
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que o faga a maioría,
ou que non o faga ninguén.
ou que non o faga ninguén.
12:25
So what are the external parallels? For all research is artificial.
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Cal son os paralelismos externos?
Todo experimento é artificial.
Que validez ten no mundo real?
Que validez ten no mundo real?
12:29
What's the validity in the real world?
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12:30
912 American citizens committed suicide or were murdered
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912 cidadáns estadounidenses
suicidáronse ou foron asasinados
suicidáronse ou foron asasinados
12:34
by family and friends in Guyana jungle in 1978,
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por familiares e amigos
na selva da Guyana en 1978,
na selva da Guyana en 1978,
12:37
because they were blindly obedient to this guy, their pastor --
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porque obedecían cegamente
a este individuo, o seu pastor,
a este individuo, o seu pastor,
12:40
not their priest -- their pastor, Reverend Jim Jones.
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non o seu párroco, o seu pastor,
o reverendo Jim Jones.
o reverendo Jim Jones.
12:42
He persuaded them to commit mass suicide.
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Persuadiunos para un suicidio colectivo.
12:46
And so, he's the modern Lucifer effect,
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E así, el é o efecto Lucifer moderno,
12:47
a man of God who becomes the Angel of Death.
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un home de Deus que se converte
no Anxo da Morte.
no Anxo da Morte.
12:52
Milgram's study is all about individual authority to control people.
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O estudo de Milgram ocúpase do uso
da autoridade individual
da autoridade individual
para controlar á xente.
12:56
Most of the time, we are in institutions,
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Botamos a maior parte do tempo
en institucións,
en institucións,
polo que o Estudo da Prisión de Stanford
é sobre o poder das institucións
é sobre o poder das institucións
13:00
so the Stanford Prison Study is a study of the power of institutions
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13:03
to influence individual behavior.
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para influír na conduta individual.
13:05
Interestingly, Stanley Milgram and I were in the same high school class
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Curiosamente, Stanley Milgram e mais eu
estudamos na mesma clase no instituto,
estudamos na mesma clase no instituto,
13:08
in James Monroe in the Bronx, 1954.
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no instituto James Monroe, no Bronx, 1954.
Fixen o estudo
cos meus estudantes de posgrao,
cos meus estudantes de posgrao,
13:13
So this study, which I did
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13:14
with my graduate students, especially Craig Haney --
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nomeadamente Craig Haney,
e tamén empezamos cun anuncio.
e tamén empezamos cun anuncio.
13:16
we also began work with an ad.
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13:17
We didn't have money, so we had a cheap, little ad,
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Era un anuncio breve,
13:19
but we wanted college students for a study of prison life.
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queriamos universitarios
para un estudo da vida en prisión.
para un estudo da vida en prisión.
13:22
75 people volunteered, took personality tests.
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Presentáronse 75 voluntarios,
fixeron tests de personalidade,
entrevistámolos.
entrevistámolos.
13:25
We did interviews. Picked two dozen:
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Escollimos dúas ducias:
os máis normais, os máis sans.
os máis normais, os máis sans.
13:27
the most normal, the most healthy.
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13:29
Randomly assigned them to be prisoner and guard.
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Asignámoslles ao chou
o papel de preso e de garda.
o papel de preso e de garda.
13:31
So on day one, we knew we had good apples.
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Así que o primeiro día tiñamos mazás sas.
13:33
I'm going to put them in a bad situation.
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Eu ía poñelos nunha situación mala.
13:35
And secondly, we know there's no difference
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En segundo lugar, sabiamos
que non había diferenzas
que non había diferenzas
entre os mozos que ían ser gardas
e os que ían ser presos.
e os que ían ser presos.
13:38
between the boys who are going to be guards
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13:39
and the boys who are going to be prisoners.
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13:41
The kids who were going to be prisoners,
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Aos presos dixémoslles,
"Agardade na casa,
"Agardade na casa,
13:42
we said, "Wait at home in the dormitories. The study will begin Sunday."
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"o estudo comeza o domingo"
Non lles dixemos
13:45
We didn't tell them
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13:46
that the city police were going to come and do realistic arrests.
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que a policía local ía proceder
a arrestalos como se fose real.
a arrestalos como se fose real.
(Vídeo) (Música)
[Día 1]
14:22
(Video) Student: A police car pulls up in front, and a cop comes to the front door,
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Estudante: Un coche da policía para diante
e un policía achégase á porta,
e un policía achégase á porta,
14:28
and knocks, and says he's looking for me.
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e chama, e di que me busca.
14:30
So they, right there, you know, they took me out the door,
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Así, como cho conto,
detivéronme na porta,
detivéronme na porta,
14:33
they put my hands against the car.
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puxéronme as mans contra o coche.
14:36
It was a real cop car, it was a real policeman,
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Era un coche da policía real,
un policía de verdade,
un policía de verdade,
14:39
and there were real neighbors in the street,
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e eran veciños de verdade
os que estaban na rúa, non sabían
os que estaban na rúa, non sabían
14:40
who didn't know that this was an experiment.
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que era un experimento.
14:44
And there was cameras all around and neighbors all around.
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E había cámaras e veciños todo arredor.
14:47
They put me in the car, then they drove me around Palo Alto.
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Metéronme no coche
e leváronme a Palo Alto.
e leváronme a Palo Alto.
14:52
They took me to the police station,
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Leváronme a comisaría,
metéronme no soto da comisaría.
metéronme no soto da comisaría.
14:55
the basement of the police station. Then they put me in a cell.
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Metéronme nun calabozo.
15:05
I was the first one to be picked up, so they put me in a cell,
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Fun o primeiro detido,
así que me meteron nunha cela,
así que me meteron nunha cela,
15:07
which was just like a room with a door with bars on it.
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que era como un cuarto
cunha porta con reixa.
cunha porta con reixa.
15:12
You could tell it wasn't a real jail.
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Pode dicirse que non era un cárcere real.
15:13
They locked me in there, in this degrading little outfit.
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Pecháronme alí,
con aquela roupa degradante,
con aquela roupa degradante,
Tomaban o experimento moi en serio.
15:19
They were taking this experiment too seriously.
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15:21
Philip Zimbardo: Here are the prisoners who are going to be dehumanized.
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Velaquí os presos, que van ser
deshumanizados, converteranse nun número.
deshumanizados, converteranse nun número.
15:23
They're going to become numbers.
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15:24
Here are the guards with the symbols of power and anonymity.
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E velaquí os gardas, cos seus símbolos
de poder e de anonimato.
de poder e de anonimato.
15:27
Guards get prisoners
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Os gardas obrigaban os presos
a limpar o váter coas mans,
a limpar o váter coas mans,
15:28
to clean the toilet bowls out with their bare hands,
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15:30
to do other humiliating tasks.
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e a outras tarefas humillantes.
15:32
They strip them naked. They sexually taunt them.
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Poñíanos en fila nús.
Vexábanos sexualmente.
Vexábanos sexualmente.
15:34
They begin to do degrading activities,
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Comezaron a obrigalos a actos degradantes,
como simular sodomía.
como simular sodomía.
15:36
like having them simulate sodomy.
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15:38
You saw simulating fellatio in soldiers in Abu Ghraib.
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Vostedes viron felacións simuladas
así en Abu Ghraib
así en Abu Ghraib
15:41
My guards did it in five days. The stress reaction was so extreme
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Os meus gardas fixérono en cinco días.
A reacción de estrés foi tan extrema
15:46
that normal kids we picked because they were healthy
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que os rapaces que seleccionáramos
porque eran sans
porque eran sans
15:48
had breakdowns within 36 hours.
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crebaron en 36 horas.
15:50
The study ended after six days, because it was out of control.
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O estudo rematou aos seis días,
porque estaba fóra de control.
porque estaba fóra de control.
15:54
Five kids had emotional breakdowns.
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Cinco rapaces tiveron crises emocionais.
15:58
Does it make a difference if warriors go to battle
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Terá algunha influencia
que os guerreiros muden de aspecto
para entrar en batalla?
para entrar en batalla?
16:00
changing their appearance or not?
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16:02
Does it make a difference if they're anonymous,
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Como tratan ás súas vítimas
desde o anonimato?
desde o anonimato?
16:03
in how they treat their victims?
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16:05
We know in some cultures, they go to war,
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Nalgunhas culturas vaise á guerra
sen cambiar o aspecto.
sen cambiar o aspecto.
16:06
they don't change their appearance.
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16:07
In other cultures, they paint themselves like "Lord of the Flies."
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Noutras, píntanse como en
"O señor das moscas".
"O señor das moscas".
16:09
In some, they wear masks.
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Nalgunhas levan máscaras.
16:11
In many, soldiers are anonymous in uniform.
302
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Noutras, os soldados fanse
anónimos co uniforme.
anónimos co uniforme.
16:14
So this anthropologist, John Watson, found
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O antropólogo Jon Watson agrupou
23 culturas en dúas categorías.
23 culturas en dúas categorías.
16:17
23 cultures that had two bits of data.
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16:19
Do they change their appearance? 15.
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Cantas mudan de aspecto? 15.
16:21
Do they kill, torture, mutilate? 13.
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Cantas matan, torturan, mutilan? 13.
16:23
If they don't change their appearance,
307
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Se non mudan de aspecto, só nunha de oito
16:25
only one of eight kills, tortures or mutilates.
308
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mata, tortura ou mutila.
16:27
The key is in the red zone.
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A chave está na zona vermella.
Se cambian de aspecto,
Se cambian de aspecto,
16:29
If they change their appearance,
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16:30
12 of 13 -- that's 90 percent -- kill, torture, mutilate.
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12 de 13, o 90 por cento,
matan, torturan, mutilan
matan, torturan, mutilan
Ese é o poder do anonimato.
16:35
And that's the power of anonymity.
312
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16:36
So what are the seven social processes
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Entón, cales son os 7 procesos sociais
16:38
that grease the slippery slope of evil?
314
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que engraxan a esvaradía costa do mal?
16:40
Mindlessly taking the first small step.
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Dar o primeiro paso inconscientemente.
16:42
Dehumanization of others. De-individuation of Self.
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Deshumanización dos outros.
Desindividuación dun mesmo.
Desindividuación dun mesmo.
16:45
Diffusion of personal responsibility. Blind obedience to authority.
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Difusión da responsabilidade persoal.
Obediencia cega á autoridade.
Conformidade acrítica coas normas grupais.
16:49
Uncritical conformity to group norms.
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16:50
Passive tolerance to evil through inaction or indifference.
319
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Tolerancia pasiva perante o mal
por inacción ou indiferenza.
por inacción ou indiferenza.
16:54
And it happens when you're in a new or unfamiliar situation.
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E isto sucede cando un se atopa
nunha situación nova.
nunha situación nova.
16:56
Your habitual response patterns don't work.
321
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Os padróns de resposta
habituais non serven.
habituais non serven.
A personalidade e a moralidade
están desconectadas.
están desconectadas.
16:59
Your personality and morality are disengaged.
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17:01
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer;
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"Nada máis doado ca denunciar ao malvado;
17:04
nothing more difficult than understanding him," Dostoyevksy tells us.
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nada máis difícil ca comprendelo".
Dostoievski.
Dostoievski.
17:07
Understanding is not excusing. Psychology is not excuse-iology.
325
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Comprender non é escusar.
A psicoloxía non é "escusoloxía".
A psicoloxía non é "escusoloxía".
17:12
So social and psychological research reveals
326
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A investigación social
e psicolóxica revelan
e psicolóxica revelan
17:13
how ordinary, good people can be transformed without the drugs.
327
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como a xente normal, boa,
pode transformarse sen axuda de drogas.
pode transformarse sen axuda de drogas.
17:17
You don't need it. You just need the social-psychological processes.
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Non se necesitan. Só se necesitan
os procesos socio-psicolóxicos.
os procesos socio-psicolóxicos.
17:20
Real world parallels? Compare this with this.
329
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Paralelismos no mundo real?
Comparen isto con isto.
James Schlesinger --remato con isto--, di,
17:26
James Schlesinger -- and I'm going to have to end with this -- says,
330
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17:28
"Psychologists have attempted to understand how and why
331
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"Os psicólogos tratan de entender
como e por que
como e por que
17:31
individuals and groups who usually act humanely
332
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persoas e grupos que normalmente
actúan humanamente
actúan humanamente
17:33
can sometimes act otherwise in certain circumstances."
333
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3000
ás veces poden actuar doutro modo
baixo certas circunstancias"
baixo certas circunstancias"
Iso é o Efecto Lucifer.
17:37
That's the Lucifer effect.
334
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17:38
And he goes on to say, "The landmark Stanford study
335
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E segue dicindo,
"O famoso estudo de Stanford
"O famoso estudo de Stanford
17:40
provides a cautionary tale for all military operations."
336
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4000
é unha advertencia
para calquera operación militar".
para calquera operación militar".
17:44
If you give people power without oversight,
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Se lle dás á xente poder
sen supervisión,
sen supervisión,
estás a dar licenza para abusar.
17:47
it's a prescription for abuse. They knew that, and let that happen.
338
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Eles sabíano, e deixaron que pasase.
17:50
So another report, an investigative report by General Fay,
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Outro informe, un informe
de investigación do xeneral Fay,
de investigación do xeneral Fay,
di que o sistema é culpable.
17:55
says the system is guilty. And in this report,
340
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Neste informe afirma que foi o ambiente
o que provocou Abu Ghraib,
o que provocou Abu Ghraib,
17:57
he says it was the environment that created Abu Ghraib,
341
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18:00
by leadership failures that contributed
342
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polos erros de mando que contribuíron
a que se producisen os abusos,
a que se producisen os abusos,
18:02
to the occurrence of such abuse,
343
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1000
18:03
and the fact that it remained undiscovered
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e porque os mandos superiores
18:05
by higher authorities for a long period of time.
345
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os ignoraron durante moito tempo.
18:07
Those abuses went on for three months. Who was watching the store?
346
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Os malos tratos prolongáronse tres meses
Quen estaba mirando para alí?
18:11
The answer is nobody, and, I think, nobody on purpose.
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A resposta é: ninguén.
Eu penso que adrede.
Eu penso que adrede.
Déronlles permiso aos gardas
para facer aquilo,
para facer aquilo,
18:14
He gave the guards permission to do those things,
348
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1000
18:15
and they knew nobody was ever going to come down to that dungeon.
349
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e eles sabían que ninguén
ía baixar a aquel alxube.
ía baixar a aquel alxube.
18:18
So you need a paradigm shift in all of these areas.
350
1086000
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Cómpre un cambio
de paradigma nestas áreas.
de paradigma nestas áreas.
18:21
The shift is away from the medical model
351
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2000
O cambio do modelo médico
que se centra só no individuo,
que se centra só no individuo,
18:23
that focuses only on the individual.
352
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2000
18:25
The shift is toward a public health model
353
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2000
ao modelo da saúde pública
18:28
that recognizes situational and systemic vectors of disease.
354
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3000
que recoñece os vectores situacionais
e sistémicos das enfermidades.
e sistémicos das enfermidades.
18:31
Bullying is a disease. Prejudice is a disease. Violence is a disease.
355
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O acoso é un trastorno.
A discriminación, outro.
A discriminación, outro.
A violencia, outro.
18:35
And since the Inquisition, we've been dealing with problems
356
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2000
Desde a Inquisición, levamos enfrontando
o problema a nivel individual.
o problema a nivel individual.
18:37
at the individual level. And you know what? It doesn't work.
357
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Non funciona.
18:40
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn says, "The line between good and evil
358
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3000
Alexander Solzhenitsin afirma:
"A liña entre o ben e o mal
"A liña entre o ben e o mal
18:43
cuts through the heart of every human being."
359
1111000
2000
atravesa o corazón de cada ser humano".
18:45
That means that line is not out there.
360
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2000
Isto significa que a liña non está fóra.
18:47
That's a decision that you have to make. That's a personal thing.
361
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É unha decisión que cada un ten que tomar,
unha cuestión persoal.
unha cuestión persoal.
18:50
So I want to end very quickly on a positive note.
362
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3000
Quero rematar rapidamente
cunha nota positiva.
cunha nota positiva.
18:53
Heroism as the antidote to evil,
363
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2000
O heroísmo é o antídoto da maldade,
promovendo o imaxinario heroico,
18:56
by promoting the heroic imagination,
364
1124000
1000
18:57
especially in our kids, in our educational system.
365
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3000
especialmente na infancia,
no sistema educativo.
no sistema educativo.
19:00
We want kids to think, I'm the hero in waiting,
366
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2000
Queremos que os nenos pensen
"son un heroe á espera,
"son un heroe á espera,
19:02
waiting for the right situation to come along,
367
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2000
á espera da situación adecuada,
19:05
and I will act heroically.
368
1133000
1000
na que actuarei como un heroe".
19:06
My whole life is now going to focus away from evil --
369
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2000
A partir de agora vou deixar,
de ocuparme do mal,
de ocuparme do mal,
19:08
that I've been in since I was a kid -- to understanding heroes.
370
1136000
3000
no que levo desde que era neno,
e vou ocuparme dos heroes.
e vou ocuparme dos heroes.
19:11
Banality of heroism
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1707
A banalidade do heroísmo.
19:13
is, it's ordinary people who do heroic deeds.
372
1140707
2293
É a xente normal a que fai heroicidades.
19:15
It's the counterpoint to Hannah Arendt's "Banality of Evil."
373
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3000
É o contrapunto á "banalidade do mal"
de Hannah Arendt.
de Hannah Arendt.
19:18
Our traditional societal heroes are wrong,
374
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3000
Os nosos heroes tradicionais non valen,
porque son a excepción.
porque son a excepción.
19:21
because they are the exceptions.
375
1149000
1000
19:22
They organize their whole life around this.
376
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2000
Organizan a súa vida arredor do seu
heroísmo. Por iso os coñecemos.
heroísmo. Por iso os coñecemos.
19:24
That's why we know their names.
377
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1000
19:25
And our kids' heroes are also wrong models for them,
378
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2000
E os heroes infantís tamén
son malos modelos,
son malos modelos,
19:27
because they have supernatural talents.
379
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2000
porque teñen poderes sobrenaturais.
Queremos que os nenos saiban
que os mais dos heroes son xente normal,
que os mais dos heroes son xente normal,
19:30
We want our kids to realize most heroes are everyday people,
380
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2000
19:32
and the heroic act is unusual. This is Joe Darby.
381
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4000
e que o inusual son os actos heroicos.
Este é Joe Darby.
19:36
He was the one that stopped those abuses you saw,
382
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2000
Foi quen puxo fin aos abusos que viron,
19:38
because when he saw those images,
383
1166000
2000
porque cando viu aquelas fotos,
19:40
he turned them over to a senior investigating officer.
384
1168000
3000
denunciounas ante un superior.
19:43
He was a low-level private, and that stopped it. Was he a hero? No.
385
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3000
El era un soldado raso, e parouno.
Era un heroe? Non.
19:47
They had to put him in hiding, because people wanted to kill him,
386
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3000
Tiveron que poñerlle protección,
porque querían matalo,
porque querían matalo,
19:50
and then his mother and his wife.
387
1178000
1000
tamén á súa nai e á súa muller.
19:51
For three years, they were in hiding.
388
1179000
2000
Durante tres anos, estiveron agochados.
19:53
This is the woman who stopped the Stanford Prison Study.
389
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3000
Esta é a muller que lle puxo fin
ao Estudo da Prisión de Stanford.
ao Estudo da Prisión de Stanford.
19:56
When I said it got out of control, I was the prison superintendent.
390
1184000
3000
Cando dixen que estaba fóra de control
eu era o superior da cadea.
eu era o superior da cadea.
19:59
I didn't know it was out of control. I was totally indifferent.
391
1187000
3000
Non sabía que estaba fóra de control.
Tanto me tiña todo.
Tanto me tiña todo.
20:02
She came down, saw that madhouse and said,
392
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2000
Ela viu aquela tolería e dixo:
20:04
"You know what, it's terrible what you're doing to those boys.
393
1192000
3000
"Sabes? o que lles estás a facer
a estes rapaces é terrible.
a estes rapaces é terrible.
20:07
They're not prisoners, they're not guards,
394
1195000
1000
Non son presos nin gardas,
son rapaces, e ti es o responsable".
son rapaces, e ti es o responsable".
20:08
they're boys, and you are responsible."
395
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2000
20:11
And I ended the study the next day.
396
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2000
Cancelei o experimento ao día seguinte.
20:13
The good news is I married her the next year.
397
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2000
A boa noticia é
que casei con ela un ano despois.
que casei con ela un ano despois.
20:15
(Laughter)
398
1203000
3000
(Risos)
20:18
(Applause)
399
1206000
7000
(Aplausos)
20:25
I just came to my senses, obviously.
400
1213000
2000
Volvín ao meu ser, por suposto.
20:27
So situations have the power to do, through --
401
1215000
2000
As situacións teñen o poder
de facer [tres cousas]
de facer [tres cousas]
Pero o caso é que a mesma situación
20:31
but the point is, this is the same situation
402
1219000
1000
20:32
that can inflame the hostile imagination in some of us,
403
1220000
4000
que pode prender no imaxinario
hostil dalgún de nós,
hostil dalgún de nós,
20:36
that makes us perpetrators of evil,
404
1224000
2000
que nos fai perpetradores do mal,
20:38
can inspire the heroic imagination in others. It's the same situation.
405
1226000
3000
pode inspirar o imaxinario
heroico noutros.
heroico noutros.
É a mesma situación,
e podemos estar dun ou doutro lado.
e podemos estar dun ou doutro lado.
20:42
And you're on one side or the other.
406
1230000
1000
20:43
Most people are guilty of the evil of inaction,
407
1231000
2000
Moita xente peca de maldade
por pasividade,
por pasividade,
20:45
because your mother said, "Don't get involved. Mind your own business."
408
1233000
3000
porque súa nai lle dixo: "Non te metas.
Métete nas túas cousas".
Métete nas túas cousas".
20:48
And you have to say, "Mama, humanity is my business."
409
1236000
3000
Hai que replicar, "Mamá,
a humanidade é cousa miña".
a humanidade é cousa miña".
20:51
So the psychology of heroism is -- we're going to end in a moment --
410
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2000
A psicoloxía do heroísmo consiste en ver
--estamos a rematar--
--estamos a rematar--
20:53
how do we encourage children in new hero courses,
411
1241000
4000
como meter aos nenos
en cursos para novos heroes,
en cursos para novos heroes,
20:57
that I'm working with Matt Langdon -- he has a hero workshop --
412
1245000
3000
niso estou a traballar con Matt Landon
- el ten un obradoiro para heroes-
- el ten un obradoiro para heroes-
21:00
to develop this heroic imagination, this self-labeling,
413
1248000
3000
para desenvolver este imaxinario heroico,
esta auto-etiqueta,
esta auto-etiqueta,
21:03
"I am a hero in waiting," and teach them skills.
414
1251000
3000
"son un heroe en espera",
e ensinarlles a selo.
e ensinarlles a selo.
21:06
To be a hero, you have to learn to be a deviant,
415
1254000
2000
Para ser un heroe,
hai que aprender a diverxer,
hai que aprender a diverxer,
porque vai haber que ir
contra a conformidade do grupo.
contra a conformidade do grupo.
21:09
because you're always going against the conformity of the group.
416
1257000
2000
21:11
Heroes are ordinary people whose social actions are extraordinary. Who act.
417
1259000
4000
Os heroes son xente normal que
fan cousas extraordinarias, que actúan.
fan cousas extraordinarias, que actúan.
21:15
The key to heroism is two things.
418
1263000
2000
A chave do heroísmo son dous puntos:
21:17
A: you've got to act when other people are passive.
419
1265000
2000
A: Actuar cando outros quedan parados.
B: Actuar sociocentricamente,
non egocentricamente.
non egocentricamente.
21:20
B: you have to act socio-centrically, not egocentrically.
420
1268000
3000
21:23
And I want to end with the story that some of you know,
421
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2000
E vou rematar cunha historia, a de Wesley
Autrey, heroe do metro de Nova York
Autrey, heroe do metro de Nova York
21:25
about Wesley Autrey, New York subway hero.
422
1273000
2000
21:27
Fifty-year-old African-American construction worker.
423
1275000
2000
Un obreiro da construción afroamericano
de 55 anos.
de 55 anos.
21:29
He's standing on a subway in New York.
424
1277000
2000
Está na estación do metro.
Un tío branco cae ás vías.
Un tío branco cae ás vías.
21:31
A white guy falls on the tracks.
425
1279000
1000
21:32
The subway train is coming. There's 75 people there.
426
1280000
3000
O tren está chegando.
Hai 75 persoas na estación.
Hai 75 persoas na estación.
21:35
You know what? They freeze.
427
1283000
1000
E saben que? Quedan pegados.
21:36
He's got a reason not to get involved.
428
1284000
2000
El ten razóns para non meterse.
21:38
He's black, the guy's white, and he's got two little kids.
429
1286000
2000
É negro, o tío é branco,
e el está cos seus dous nenos.
e el está cos seus dous nenos.
Pero déixalle os fillos a un descoñecido,
21:41
Instead, he gives his kids to a stranger,
430
1289000
1000
21:42
jumps on the tracks, puts the guy between the tracks,
431
1290000
3000
salta ás vías, move ao tío
cara ao medio dos raís,
cara ao medio dos raís,
21:45
lies on him, the subway goes over him.
432
1293000
2000
bótaselle enriba,
o tren pásalles por riba.
o tren pásalles por riba.
21:47
Wesley and the guy -- 20 and a half inches height.
433
1295000
3000
Wesley e o tío,
52 centímetros de altura.
52 centímetros de altura.
O espazo que deixa o tren é de 53,5 cm.
21:51
The train clearance is 21 inches.
434
1299000
2000
21:53
A half an inch would have taken his head off.
435
1301000
2000
Un centímetro e medio
e levaríalle a cabeza.
e levaríalle a cabeza.
21:56
And he said, "I did what anyone could do,"
436
1304000
3000
E di: "Fixen o que faría calquera"
Saltar ás vías non é para tanto.
Saltar ás vías non é para tanto.
21:59
no big deal to jump on the tracks.
437
1307000
1000
22:00
And the moral imperative is "I did what everyone should do."
438
1308000
4000
E o imperativo moral é
"fixen o que faría calquera".
"fixen o que faría calquera".
22:04
And so one day, you will be in a new situation.
439
1312000
2000
Así que calquera día,
atoparanse nunha situación nova.
atoparanse nunha situación nova.
22:07
Take path one, you're going to be a perpetrator of evil.
440
1315000
2000
Se collen o camiño un,
serán axentes do mal.
serán axentes do mal.
22:09
Evil, meaning you're going to be Arthur Andersen.
441
1317000
3000
O mal no sentido de que serán
Arthur Andersen.
Arthur Andersen.
22:12
You're going to cheat, or you're going to allow bullying.
442
1320000
2000
Mentirán, ou permitirán abusos.
22:14
Path two, you become guilty of the evil of passive inaction.
443
1322000
2000
Co camiño dous, serán culpables
do mal por pasividade.
do mal por pasividade.
22:17
Path three, you become a hero.
444
1325000
1000
Co camiño tres, serán heroes.
22:18
The point is, are we ready to take the path
445
1326000
3000
A cuestión é: estamos listos para coller
o camiño que leva a ser heroes normais,
o camiño que leva a ser heroes normais,
22:21
to celebrating ordinary heroes,
446
1329000
2000
22:23
waiting for the right situation to come along
447
1331000
2000
a esperar pola situación adecuada
22:25
to put heroic imagination into action?
448
1333000
2000
para poñer en práctica
o imaxinario heroico?
o imaxinario heroico?
22:27
Because it may only happen once in your life,
449
1335000
3000
Porque isto só pasa unha vez na vida.
e cando che pasa, sábelo.
22:31
and when you pass it by, you'll always know,
450
1339000
1000
22:32
I could have been a hero and I let it pass me by.
451
1340000
3000
Eu puiden ser un heroe
e deixei pasar a ocasión.
e deixei pasar a ocasión.
22:35
So the point is thinking it and then doing it.
452
1343000
2000
Así que a cousa é pensalo e logo facelo.
22:37
So I want to thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
453
1345000
3000
Quero darlles as grazas, grazas, grazas.
22:40
Let's oppose the power of evil systems at home and abroad,
454
1348000
3000
Opoñámonos ao poder dos sistemas do mal
na casa e fóra dela.
na casa e fóra dela.
22:43
and let's focus on the positive.
455
1351000
2000
E concentrémonos no positivo.
22:45
Advocate for respect of personal dignity, for justice and peace,
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Avoguemos polo respecto á dignidade
das persoas, á xustiza e á paz,
das persoas, á xustiza e á paz,
22:48
which sadly our administration has not been doing.
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cousa que, por desgraza,
a Administración non fai.
a Administración non fai.
22:50
Thanks so much.
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Moitas grazas.
22:51
(Applause)
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(Aplausos)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Philip Zimbardo - PsychologistPhilip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib. His book The Lucifer Effect explores the nature of evil; now, in his new work, he studies the nature of heroism.
Why you should listen
Philip Zimbardo knows what evil looks like. After serving as an expert witness during the Abu Ghraib trials, he wrote The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil. From Nazi comic books to the tactics of used-car salesmen, he explores a wealth of sources in trying to explain the psychology of evil.
A past president of the American Psychological Association and a professor emeritus at Stanford, Zimbardo retired in 2008 from lecturing, after 50 years of teaching his legendary introductory course in psychology. In addition to his work on evil and heroism, Zimbardo recently published The Time Paradox, exploring different cultural and personal perspectives on time.
Still well-known for his controversial Stanford Prison Experiment, Zimbardo in his new research looks at the psychology of heroism. He asks, "What pushes some people to become perpetrators of evil, while others act heroically on behalf of those in need?"
Philip Zimbardo | Speaker | TED.com