TED2012
Jon Ronson: Strange answers to the psychopath test
Jon Ronson: Čudni odgovori na testu za psihopate
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Postoji li čvrsto određena linija između ludosti i normalnog? U uzbudljivom govoru, Jon Ronson, autor Testa za psihopate, objašnjava središnja područja između. (Uz uživo remiksiranu glazbu Juliana Treasurea i animaciju Evana Granta.)
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmaker
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
This story starts: I was at a friend's house,
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Priča ovako počinje: bio sam kod prijateljice
00:19
and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual,
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i ona je na polici imala DSM priručnik --
00:23
which is the manual of mental disorders.
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priručnik o mentalnim poremećajima.
00:26
It lists every known mental disorder.
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To je popis svih poznatih mentalnih poremećaja.
00:29
And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet.
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U 50- ima je to bio veoma tanka knjižica.
00:32
And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger,
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I onda je postajao sve veći i veći,
00:35
and now it's 886 pages long.
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pa sad ima 886 stranica.
00:38
And it lists currently 374 mental disorders.
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Trenutno broji 374 mentalna poremećaja.
00:42
So I was leafing through it,
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Listao sam priručnik
00:44
wondering if I had any mental disorders,
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pitajući se imam li ja koji mentalni poremećaj
00:46
and it turns out I've got 12.
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i ispalo je da ih imam 12.
00:49
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
00:50
I've got generalized anxiety disorder,
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Imam opći anksiozni poremećaj,
00:52
which is a given.
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to se podrazumijeva.
00:54
I've got nightmare disorder,
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Imam poremećaj spavanja s noćnim morama,
00:55
which is categorized
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što je kategorizirano kao
00:57
if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure --
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stalno sanjanje progonjenja ili nekog neuspjeha --
01:01
and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street
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i svi moji snovi uključuju ljude koji me love po ulici
01:05
going, "You're a failure."
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pritom govoreći: ''Ti si neuspjeh.''
01:07
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
01:09
I've got parent-child relational problems,
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Imam problem s odnosom roditelj-dijete,
01:11
which I blame my parents for.
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za što krivim svoje roditelje.
01:14
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
01:15
I'm kidding. I'm not kidding.
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Šalim se. Ne šalim se.
01:18
I'm kidding.
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Ma, šalim se.
01:19
And I've got malingering.
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Još sam i simulant.
01:21
And I think it's actually quite rare
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I mislim da je zapravo jako rijetko da je netko
01:23
to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder,
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i simulant i da boluje
i od općeg anksioznog poremećaja,
i od općeg anksioznog poremećaja,
01:26
because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious.
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zato što me simuliranje čini jako tjeskobnim.
01:29
Anyway I was looking through this book,
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I tako sam listao ovu knjigu,
01:30
wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was,
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pitajući se jesam li sam luđi
nego što sam mislio da jesam,
nego što sam mislio da jesam,
01:33
or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder
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ili možda nije dobra ideja dijagnosticirati
sam sebi mentalne poremećaje
sam sebi mentalne poremećaje
01:37
if you're not a trained professional,
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ako niste obrazovani stručnjak,
01:39
or maybe the psychiatry profession has a strange desire
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ili možda psihijatrijska profesija ima neobičnu želju
01:43
to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder.
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etiketirati normalno ljudsko ponašanje kao mentalni poremećaj.
01:49
I didn't know which of these things was true,
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Nisam znao što je od toga točno,
01:50
but I thought it was kind of interesting.
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ali sam mislio da je zanimljivo.
01:52
And I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry
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I pomislio sam da bih se trebao susresti
s kritičarem psihijatarije
s kritičarem psihijatarije
01:55
to get their view.
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kako bih shvatio njihov pogled.
01:56
Which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists.
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Tako sam završio na ručku sa Scijentolozima.
02:01
It was a man called Brian
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To je bio Brian,
02:03
who runs a crack team of Scientologists
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čovjek koji vodi odličan tim Scijentologa
02:05
who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies.
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koji su odlučni uništiti psihijatriju.
02:10
They're called the CCHR.
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Zovu se CCHR.
02:11
And I said to him, "Can you prove to me
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Pitao sam ga: ''Možete li mi dokazati
02:14
that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?"
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da je psihijatrija kvazi-znanost
kojoj se ne može vjerovati?''
kojoj se ne može vjerovati?''
02:18
And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you."
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A on je rekao: ''Da, možemo ti to dokazati.''
02:20
And I said, "How?"
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Upitao sam: ''Kako?''
02:22
And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony."
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Odgovorio je: ''Upoznat ćemo te s Tonyjem.''
02:26
And I said, "Who's Tony?"
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Ja sam pitao: ''Tko je Tony?''
02:28
And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor."
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A on je rekao: ''Tony je u Broadmooru."
02:31
Now Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital.
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Broadmoor je bolnica.
02:34
It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane.
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Prije je bila poznata kao
Broadmoor azil za mentalno bolesne kriminalce.
Broadmoor azil za mentalno bolesne kriminalce.
02:39
It's where they send the serial killers
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To je mjesto gdje šalju serijske ubojice
02:41
and the people who can't help themselves.
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i ljude koji ne mogu pomoći sami sebi.
02:43
And I said to Brian, "What did Tony do?"
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Pitao sam Briana: ''Što je Tony učinio?''
02:46
And he said, "Hardly anything.
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A on je rekao: ''Gotovo ništa.'
02:49
He beat someone up or something,
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Pretukao je nekoga ili tako nešto
02:52
and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence.
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i odlučio je odglumiti da je lud
kako bi izbjegao zatvorsku kaznu.
kako bi izbjegao zatvorsku kaznu.
02:57
But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor
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Ali predobro je odglumio i sad je zapeo u Broadmooru
03:02
and nobody will believe he's sane.
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i nitko ne želi povjerovati da je zdrav.
03:04
Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?"
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Želiš da te pokušamo ubaciti u Broadmoor da upoznaš Tonyja?
03:08
So I said, "Yes, please."
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Rekao sam: ''Da, molim te.''
03:10
So I got the train to Broadmoor.
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Ušao sam na vlak za Broadmoor.
03:12
I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park,
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Počeo sam nekontrolirano zijevati
negdje kod Kempton Parka,
negdje kod Kempton Parka,
03:16
which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious --
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što navodno čine i psi kad su nervozni --
03:19
they yawn uncontrollably.
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nekontrolirano zijevaju.
03:21
And we got to Broadmoor.
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I stigli smo u Broadmoor.
03:22
And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate
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Vodili su me kroz niz vrata, jedna za drugima,
03:27
into the wellness center,
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do wellness centra
03:29
which is where you get to meet the patients.
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gdje možete upoznati pacijente.
03:30
It looks like a giant Hampton Inn.
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Izgleda kao veliki hotel Hampton Inn.
03:34
It's all peach and pine and calming colors.
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Posvuda su boja breskve,
borova i ostale umirujuće boje.
borova i ostale umirujuće boje.
03:38
And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons.
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I jedine žarke boje su crveni gumbi za uzbunu.
03:43
And the patients started drifting in.
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Pacijenti su počeli dolaziti.
03:46
And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants
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Svi su bili prilično debeli i obučeni u trenirke
03:51
and quite docile looking.
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i izgledi su pitomo.
03:53
And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me,
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Scijentolog Brian šapnuo mi je:
03:55
"They're medicated,"
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''Pod lijekovima su'',
03:57
which to the Scientologists is like the worst evil in the world,
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što je za scijentologe najveće zlo na svijetu,
04:01
but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea.
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ali ja sam mislio da je to vjerojatno dobra ideja.
04:03
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
04:05
And then Brian said, "Here's Tony."
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Tad je Brain rekao: ''Evo Tonya.''
04:08
And a man was walking in.
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Ušao je čovjek
04:10
And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape.
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koji nije bio debeo, bio je u vrlo dobroj fizičkoj formi.
04:14
And he wasn't wearing sweatpants,
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I nije bio obučen u trenirku,
04:15
he was wearing a pinstriped suit.
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već je nosio odijelo na prugice.
04:18
And he had his arm outstretched
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Ispružio je ruku
04:20
like someone out of The Apprentice.
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poput nekog iz emisije Pripravnik.
04:23
He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit
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Izgledao je kao čovjek koji želi nositi odijelo
04:25
that would convince me that he was very sane.
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kako bi me uvjerio da je potpuno zdrav.
04:30
And he sat down.
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Sjeo je.
04:31
And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?"
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Pitao sam ga: ''Je li istina
da si odglumio kako bi došao ovdje?''
da si odglumio kako bi došao ovdje?''
04:34
And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17.
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Odgovorio je: ''Da. Da. Zbilja.
Pretukao sam nekoga kad mi je bilo 17.
Pretukao sam nekoga kad mi je bilo 17.
04:38
And I was in prison awaiting trial,
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U zatvoru sam čekao suđenje
04:40
and my cellmate said to me,
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kad mi je moj cimer iz ćelije rekao:
04:42
'You know what you have to do?
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''Znaš li što moraš napraviti'?
04:43
Fake madness.
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Glumiti da si lud.
04:45
Tell them you're mad. You'll get sent to some cushy hospital.
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Reci im da si lud. Poslat će te u neku udobnu bolnicu.
04:48
Nurses will bring you pizzas.
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Sestre će ti donositi pizze.
04:51
You'll have your own Playstation.'"
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Imat ćeš svoj Playstation.''
04:53
So I said, "Well how did you do it?"
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Pa sam ga pitao: ''I, kako si to učinio?''
04:54
He said, "I asked to see the prison psychiatrist.
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Odgovorio je: ''Javio sam se zatvorskom psihijatru.
04:57
And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash'
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A baš sam bio pogledao film ''Fatalna nesreća"
04:59
in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.
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u kojem ljude seksualno uzbuđuje
zalijetanje autom u zid.
zalijetanje autom u zid.
05:03
So I said to the psychiatrist,
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Pa sam rekao psihijatru:
05:05
'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'"
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''Seksualno me uzbuđuje zalijetanje autom u zid.''
05:09
And I said, "What else?"
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Pitao sam ga: ''Što još?''
05:11
He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist
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On je rekao: ''O, da. Rekao sam psihijatru
05:13
that I wanted to watch women as they died
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da želim gledati žene kako umiru
05:17
because it would make me feel more normal."
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zato što se onda osjećam normalnijim.''
05:19
And I said, "Where'd you get that from?"
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Zatim sam pitao: ''Otkud ti ta ideja?''
05:21
He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy
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I on je odgovorio: ''Iz biografije Teda Bundyja
05:23
that they had at the prison library."
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koja je bila u zatvorskoj knjižnici.''
05:25
Anyway he faked madness too well, he said.
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Rekao mi je da je predobro odglumio ludost.
05:29
And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital.
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I nisu ga poslali u neku udobnu bolnicu.
05:31
They sent him to Broadmoor.
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Poslali su ga u Broadmoor.
05:33
And the minute he got there,
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Istog trena kad je stigao,
05:35
he said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist,
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pogledao je to mjesto,
zatražio razgovor sa psihijatrom
zatražio razgovor sa psihijatrom
05:38
said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding.
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i rekao: ''Došlo je velikog nesporazuma.
05:40
I'm not mentally ill."
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Ja nisam mentalno bolestan."
05:42
I said, "How long have you been here for?"
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Pitao sam: ''Koliko dugo si ovdje?''
05:44
He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison for the original crime,
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Odgovorio je: ''Da sam u zatvoru
služio kaznu za svoj zločin,
služio kaznu za svoj zločin,
05:49
I'd have got five years.
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dobio bih pet godina.
05:50
I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years."
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U Broadmooru sam 12 godina."
05:56
Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane
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Tony je rekao da je mnogo teže
uvjeriti ljude da si normalan,
uvjeriti ljude da si normalan,
06:00
than it is to convince them you're crazy.
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nego uvjeriti ih da si lud.
06:03
He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal
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Rekao je: ''Mislio sam da je
najbolji način da izgledam normalno
najbolji način da izgledam normalno
06:04
would be to talk to people normally about normal things
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da razgovaram s ljudima na normalan način o normalnim stvarima
06:07
like football or what's on TV.
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poput nogometa ili o televizijskom programu.¸
06:09
I subscribe to New Scientist,
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Pretplaćen sam na New Scientist
06:11
and recently it had an article
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i nedavno su objavili članak
06:13
about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives.
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o tome kako američka vojska
trenira bumbare da nanjuše eksploziv.
trenira bumbare da nanjuše eksploziv.
06:18
So I said to a nurse,
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Rekao sam sestri:
06:18
'Did you know that the U.S. army is training bumblebees
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''Znaš li da američka vojska trenira bumbare
06:22
to sniff out explosives?'
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da nanjuše ekspoloziv?''
06:23
When I read my medical notes,
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Kad sam čitao svoje nalaze,
06:25
I saw they'd written:
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vidio sam da su napisali:
06:26
'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'"
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''Vjeruje da bumbari mogu nanjušiti eksploziv.''
06:30
He said, "You know, they're always looking out
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Rekao je: ''Znaš, uvijek traže
06:33
for non-verbal clues to my mental state.
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neverbalne tragove mog mentalnog stanja.
06:35
But how do you sit in a sane way?
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Ali kako sjediti na normalan način?
06:39
How do you cross your legs in a sane way?
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Kako prekrižiti noge na normalan način?
06:41
It's just impossible."
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To je jednostavno nemoguće.''
06:43
And when Tony said that to me,
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Kad mi je to Tony rekao,
06:44
I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist?
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pomislio sam: ''Sjedim li kao novinar?
06:48
Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?"
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Jesam li prekrižio noge kao novinar?''
06:51
He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me
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Rekao je: ''Znaš, s jedne mi je strane davitelj,
06:57
and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist on the other side of me.
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a s druge strane silovatelj.
07:00
So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening.
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Bojim ih se pa zato često ostajem u svojoj sobi.
07:04
And they take that as a sign of madness.
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A oni to vide kao znak ludosti.
07:06
They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose."
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Kažu da to dokazuje da sam ravnodušan
i da patim od osjećaja grandioznosti.''
i da patim od osjećaja grandioznosti.''
07:09
So only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers
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Samo je u Broadmooru znak ludosti
to što se ne želite družiti
to što se ne želite družiti
07:14
be a sign of madness.
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sa serijskim ubojicama.
07:15
Anyway he seemed completely normal to me -- but what did I know?
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Meni se činilo potpuno normalnim -- ali, što sam ja znao?
07:19
And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden.
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Kad sam došao doma, poslao sam e-mail njegovu liječniku, Anthonyju Madenu.
07:22
I said, "What's the story?"
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Pitao sam ga: "Što je na stvari?"
07:23
And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness to get out of a prison sentence
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Odgovorio je: "Prihvaćamo da je Tony glumio
da je lud kako bi izbjegao zatvorsku kaznu
da je lud kako bi izbjegao zatvorsku kaznu
07:29
because his hallucinations that had seemed quite cliché to begin with
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zato što su njegove halucinacije
koje su se činile klišejem
koje su se činile klišejem
07:33
just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor.
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jednostavno nestale istog trena
kad je stigao u Broadmoor.
kad je stigao u Broadmoor.
07:36
However, we have assessed him.
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No, prošao je našu procjenu
07:38
And we have determined that what he is is a psychopath."
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i zaključili smo da je on psihopat.''
07:42
And in fact, faking madness
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U biti, glumljenje ludosti
07:44
is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath.
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je upravo podmukao i manipulativan čin psihopata.
07:49
It's on the checklist: cunning and manipulative.
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To je na listi: podmukao i manipulativan.
07:51
So faking your brain going wrong
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Dakle, glumljenje da ste ludi
07:53
is evidence that your brain has gone wrong.
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dokaz je da je vaš mozak otišao k vragu.
07:56
And I spoke to other experts,
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Razgovarao sam i s drugim stručnjacima
07:58
and they said the pinstriped suit -- classic psychopath.
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i rekli su: "Prugasto odijelo -- klasični psihopat.
08:02
Speaks to items one and two on the checklist --
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Doprinosi prvoj i drugoj stvari na popisu --
08:04
glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth.
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rječitost, površan šarm
i grandiozan osjećaj samovrijednosti.
i grandiozan osjećaj samovrijednosti.
08:08
And I said, "Well, what, he didn't want to hang out with the other patients?"
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Rekao sam: ''Pa što ako se nije družio
s ostalim zatvorenicima?''
s ostalim zatvorenicima?''
08:11
Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy.
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Klasični psihopat -- objašnjava osjećaj
grandioznosti i nedostatak empatije.
grandioznosti i nedostatak empatije.
08:16
So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony
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Sve stvari koje su se činile
najnormalnijima u vezi Tonyja
najnormalnijima u vezi Tonyja
08:20
was evidence, according to his clinician,
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bile su dokaz, prema njegovim liječnicima,
08:22
that he was mad in this new way.
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da je on lud.
08:24
He was a psychopath.
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On je psihopat.
08:26
And his clinician said to me,
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Njegovi liječnici rekli su mi:
08:28
"If you want to know more about psychopaths,
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''Ako želiš znati više o psihopatima,
08:30
you can go on a psychopath spotting course
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možeš ići na tečaj uočavanja psihopata
08:33
run by Robert Hare who invented the psychopath checklist."
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koji vodi Robert Hare koji je smislio
listu obilježja psihopata."
listu obilježja psihopata."
08:36
So I did.
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Pa sam to i učinio.
08:37
I went on a psychopath spotting course,
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Otišao sam na tečaj uočavanja psihopata,
08:39
and I am now a certified --
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i sad sam potvrđeni --
08:43
and I have to say, extremely adept --
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i moram reći, iznimno vješt --
08:46
psychopath spotter.
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uočavatelj psihopata.
08:48
So here's the statistics:
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Evo statistike:
08:51
One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath.
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Jedan od sto normalnih ljudi je psihopat.
08:56
So there's 1,500 people in his room.
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U ovoj prostoriji je 1,500 ljudi.
08:59
Fifteen of you are psychopaths.
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Petnaest od vas su psihopati.
09:05
Although that figure rises to four percent
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Taj iznos raste do četiri posto
09:07
of CEO's and business leaders.
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među menadžerima i šefovima.
09:10
So I think there's a very good chance
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Zato mislim da je velika vjerojatnost
09:13
there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room.
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da je u ovoj prostoriji 30 ili 40 psihopata.
09:18
It could be carnage by the end of the night.
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Moglo bi doći do pokolja do kraja večeri.
09:21
(Laughter) (Laughs)
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(Smijeh) (Smije se)
09:24
Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless
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Hare kaže da je to zato što nemilosrdni kapitalizam
09:30
rewards psychopathic behavior --
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nagrađuje psihopatsko ponašanje--
09:33
the lack of empathy, the glibness,
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nedostatak empatije, rječitost,
09:38
cunning, manipulative.
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prepredenost, manipulativnost.
09:40
In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless,
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U biti, kapitalizam je, u svom najnemilosrdnijem obliku,
09:43
is a physical manifestation of psychopathy.
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fizička manifestacija psihopatije.
09:47
It's like a form of psychopathy
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To je oblik psihopatije
09:49
that's come down to affect us all.
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koji će imati utjecaja na sve nas.
09:53
And Hare said to me, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor
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Hare mi je rekao: ''Znaš što?
Zaboravi na tog tipa u Broadmooru
Zaboravi na tog tipa u Broadmooru
09:56
who may or may not have faked madness.
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koji možda jest ili možda nije glumio da je lud.
09:57
Who cares? That's not a big story.
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Koga briga? To nije velika priča."
09:59
The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy.
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Rekao je: "Velika priča je korporativna psihopatija.
10:02
You want to go and interview yourself some corporate psychopaths."
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Trebaš intervjuirati korporativne psihopate.''
10:06
So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people.
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Pa sam pokušao. Pisao sam ljudima u Enronu.
10:09
I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison
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Pitao sam: ''Mogu li doći i intervjuirati vas u zatvoru
10:11
to find out it you're psychopaths?"
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da saznam jeste li psihopati?''
10:13
And they didn't reply.
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Nisu mi odgovorili.
10:17
So I changed tack.
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Pa sam promijenio taktiku.
10:20
I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap,
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Poslao sam e-mail "Chainsaw Al" Dunlapu
10:23
the asset stripper from the 1990s.
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koji je rasprodavao imovinu 1990-ih.
10:26
He would come into failing businesses and close down 30 percent of the workforce,
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Preuzeo bi propadajuće tvrtke
i zatvorio 30 posto proizvodnje,
i zatvorio 30 posto proizvodnje,
10:31
just turn American towns into ghost towns.
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pretvorio bi američke gradove u gradove duhova.
10:34
And I emailed him and I said,
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Poslao sam mu e-mail i rekao:
10:36
"I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly
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''Vjerujem da imate vrlo posebnu anomaliju mozga
10:38
that makes you special
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koja Vas čini posebnim
10:40
and interested in the predatory spirit and fearless.
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i zato Vas zanima predatorski duh
i neustrašivost.
i neustrašivost.
10:45
Can I come and interview you
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Mogu li doći i intervjuirati Vas
10:46
about your special brain anomaly?"
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o Vašoj posebnoj anomaliji mozga?''
10:48
And he said, "Come on over."
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A on je rekao: ''Dođi.''
10:52
So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion
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I tako sam otišao u veliku vilu Ala Dunlapa na Floridi
10:55
that was filled with sculptures of predatory animals.
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koja je bila puna
skulptura grabežljivih životinja.
skulptura grabežljivih životinja.
10:59
There were lions and tigers.
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Ondje su bili lavovi i tigrovi.
11:02
He was taking me through the garden.
228
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Vodio me kroz vrt.
11:03
There were falcons and eagles.
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Ondje su bili sokoli i orlovi.
11:06
He was saying to me, "Over there you've got sharks."
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Rekao mi je: ''Ondje su morski psi.''
11:08
He was saying this in a less effeminate way.
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To je govorio na nešto manje otmjen način.
11:11
"You've got more sharks and you've got tigers."
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''Ondje ima još morskih pasa i tigrova.''
11:16
It was like Narnia.
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1995
Bilo je kao u Narniji.
11:18
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
11:22
And then we went into his kitchen.
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Onda smo otišli u njegovu kuhinju.
11:24
Now Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies.
236
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4176
Ala Dunlapa pozvali bi kako bi spasio propadajuće tvrtke.
11:28
He'd close down 30 percent of the workforce.
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A on bi zatvorio 30 posto proizvodnje.
11:31
And he'd quite often fire people with a joke.
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I vrlo često bi otpustio ljude uz šalu.
11:34
For instance, one famous story about him,
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2805
Na primjer, zna se da mu je netko prišao
11:37
somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car."
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2915
i rekao: ''Upravo sam si kupio novi auto.''
11:40
And he said, "You may have a new car,
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I on bi mu rekao: ''Možda imaš novi auto,
11:42
but I'll tell you what you don't have, a job."
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5723
ali reći ću ti što nemaš, posao.''
11:47
So in his kitchen -- he was standing there with his wife, Judy,
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Dakle, u kuhinji-- stajao je tamo sa svojom ženom, Judy,
11:50
and his bodyguard Sean -- and I said, "You know how I said in my email
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2873
i tjelohraniteljem Seanom. Rekao sam:
''Znate kako sam u svom e-mailu rekao
''Znate kako sam u svom e-mailu rekao
11:53
that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?"
245
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3814
da Vi možda imate posebnu anomaliju mozga
koja Vas čini posebnim?''
koja Vas čini posebnim?''
11:57
He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory.
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Odgovorio je: ''Da, to je nevjerojatna teorija.
11:58
It's like Star Trek. You're going where no man has gone before."
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Kao u Zvjezdanim stazama. Idete tamo gdje ni jedan čovjek prije nije išao."
12:02
And I said, "Well, some psychologists might say
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Ja sam rekao: ''Pa, neki psiholozi bi mogli reći
12:09
that this makes you ... " (Mumbles)
249
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2949
da Vas to čini...'' (Mrmljanje)
12:12
(Laughter)
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1651
(Smijeh)
12:14
And he said, "What?"
251
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1767
Rekao je: ''Što?''
12:16
And I said, "A psychopath."
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Odgovorio sam: ''Psihopatom.''
12:18
And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket.
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4182
Dodao sam: ''Imam popis
psihopatskih karakteristika u svom džepu.
psihopatskih karakteristika u svom džepu.
12:22
Can I go through them with you?"
254
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2284
Mogu li s Vama proći kroz njih?''
12:24
And he looked intrigued despite himself,
255
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Izgledao je zaintrigirano
12:27
and he said, "Okay, go on."
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i rekao: ''U redu, nastavite.''
12:28
And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth."
257
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3434
Krenuo sam: ''U redu. Grandiozan osjećaj samovrijednosti.''
12:32
Which, I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny
258
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2499
To bi mu bilo teško zanijekati
12:34
because he was standing underneath a giant oil painting of himself.
259
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3201
zato što je stajao ispod ogromne slike samoga sebe.
12:37
(Laughter)
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4477
(Smijeh)
12:42
He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!"
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Rekao je: ''Pa, moraš vjerovati u sebe!''
12:45
And I said, "Manipulative."
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Nastavio sam: ''Manipulativnost.''
12:48
He said, "That's leadership."
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3051
On je rekao: ''To je vodstvo.''
12:51
And I said, "Shallow affect:
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1866
A ja sam rekao: ''Površnost:
12:53
an inability to experience a range of emotions."
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2284
nesposobnost osjećati široki spektar emocija.''
12:55
He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?"
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On je rekao: ''Tko želi da ga sputavaju besmislene emocije?''
12:59
So he was going down the psychopathic checklist,
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I tako je prolazio kroz popis obilježja psihopata,
13:01
basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?"
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i zapravo je sve postalo slično čitanju motivacijske knjige.
13:05
(Laughter)
269
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3995
(Smijeh)
13:09
But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap.
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2700
No, primjetio sam da mi se nešto dogodilo
tog dana koji sam proveo s Alom Dunlopom.
tog dana koji sam proveo s Alom Dunlopom.
13:11
Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal --
271
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2588
Kad god bi mi rekao bilo što što je donekle normalno --
13:14
like he said no to juvenile delinquency.
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kao što je govorio protiv maloljetničke delikvencije.
13:17
He said he got accepted into West Point,
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1386
Pričao je da su ga primili u West Point,
13:18
and they don't let delinquents in West Point.
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3248
i delikvente ne primaju u West Point.
13:22
He said no to many short-term marital relationships.
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2849
Ne slaže se s kratkotrajnim brakovima.
13:25
He's only ever been married twice.
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1485
On se ženio samo dva puta.
13:26
Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers
277
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3234
Njegova prva žena navela je u papirima za razvod
13:29
that he once threatened her with a knife
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da joj je jedanput prijetio nožem
13:31
and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like,
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i rekao da ga je oduvijek zanimalo
kakvog je okusa ljudsko meso,
kakvog je okusa ljudsko meso,
13:34
but people say stupid things to each other in bad marriages in the heat of an argument
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3967
ali ljudi si kažu gluposti u lošim brakovima u žaru svađe.
13:38
and his second marriage has lasted 41 years.
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3099
Njegov drugi brak trajao je 41 godinu.
13:41
So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic,
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3619
Kad god bi mi rekao nešto
što mi se nije činilo psihopatskim,
što mi se nije činilo psihopatskim,
13:45
I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book.
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pomislio sam kako to neću napisati u svojoj knjizi.
13:48
And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter
284
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3967
I onda sam shvatio da me činjenica
da sam postao uočavatelj psihopata
da sam postao uočavatelj psihopata
13:52
had turned me a little bit psychopathic.
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i samog pomalo pretvorila u psihopata.
13:56
Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked psychopath.
286
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4968
Zato što sam očajnički htio prikazati ga kao psihopata.
14:01
I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges.
287
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4666
Očajnički sam želio definirati ga
samo njegovim najluđim crtama.
samo njegovim najluđim crtama.
14:05
And I realized, oh my God. This is what I've been doing for 20 years.
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I shvatio sam da je to ono što radim već 20 godina.
14:09
It's what all journalists do.
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To je ono što svi novinari rade.
14:10
We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands,
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3484
Putujemo svijetom s našim notesima u rukama
14:14
and we wait for the gems.
291
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1899
i čekamo bisere.
14:16
And the gems are always the outermost aspects
292
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A biseri su uvijek najdalji aspekti
14:20
of our interviewee's personality.
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osobnosti onoga koga intervjuiramo.
14:22
And we stitch them together like medieval monks.
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3252
Mi ih šivamo kao srednjovjekovni redovnici.
14:26
And we leave the normal stuff on the floor.
295
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3865
I ostavljamo normalne stvari na podu.
14:30
And this is a country that over-diagnoses certain mental disorders hugely.
296
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7167
A ovo je zemlja koja dijagnosticira
previše mentalnih poremećaja.
previše mentalnih poremećaja.
14:37
Childhood bipolar -- children as young as four
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3066
Bipolarna djeca -- već i četverogodišnjoj djeci
14:40
are being labeled bipolar
298
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1950
dijagnosticira se bipolarni poremećaj
14:42
because they have temper tantrums,
299
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2383
zato što imaju napadaje bijesa,
14:44
which scores them high on their bipolar checklist.
300
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što ih pozicionira visoko na listi bipolarnih obilježja.
14:48
When I got back to London, Tony phoned me.
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4383
Kad sam se vratio u London, Tony me nazvao.
14:53
He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?"
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Rekao je: ''Zašto mi ne odgovoraš na pozive?''
14:56
I said, "Well they say that you're a psychopath."
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Rekao sam: ''Pa, kažu da si psihopat.''
14:59
And he said, "I'm not a psychopath."
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2294
Odgovorio je: ''Nisam psihopat.''
15:01
He said, "You know what, one of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse,
305
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2896
Nastavio je, ''Znaš što, jedno od obilježja na popisu
jest nedostatak žaljenja,
jest nedostatak žaljenja,
15:04
but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative.
306
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3285
ali druga je karakteristika
prepredenost, manipulativnost.
prepredenost, manipulativnost.
15:08
So when you say you feel remorse for your crime,
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2585
Pa kad kažeš da osjećaš žaljenje zbog svog zločina,
15:10
they say, 'Typical of the psychopath
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1764
oni kažu: ''Tipično za psihopata
15:12
to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.'
309
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3385
da tako prepredeno kaže
da osjeća žaljenje kad to ne osjeća.''
da osjeća žaljenje kad to ne osjeća.''
15:15
It's like witchcraft. They turn everything upside-down."
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3499
To je poput vračanja. Sve izokrenu.
15:19
He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up.
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2482
Rekao je: ''Imam saslušanje uskoro.
15:21
Will you come to it?"
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2371
Hoćeš li doći?''
15:24
So I said okay.
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Rekao sam da hoću.
15:26
So I went to his tribunal.
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Otišao sam na njegovo saslušanje.
15:28
And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go.
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4457
Nakon 14 godina u Broadmooru, pustili su ga.
15:33
They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely
316
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3248
Odlučili su da ne bi trebao vječno ostati ondje
15:36
because he scores high on a checklist
317
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3136
jer ima veliki broj bodova na popisu
15:39
that might mean that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism.
318
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5383
što bi moglo značiti da su šanse za recidiv
veće od prosjeka.
veće od prosjeka.
15:45
So they let him go.
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1883
Pa su ga pustili.
15:47
And outside in the corridor he said to me,
320
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1709
Na hodniku mi je rekao:
15:48
"You know what, Jon?
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1543
''Znaš što, Jon?'
15:50
Everyone's a bit psychopathic."
322
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2423
Svatko je barem malo psihopat."
15:52
He said, "You are. I am. Well obviously I am."
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Rekao je: "Ti jesi. Ja jesam. Ja očito jesam.''
15:56
I said, "What are you going to do now?"
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Pitao sam ga: ''Što ćeš sad učiniti?''
15:59
He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium
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Odgovorio je: ''Idem u Belgiju
16:02
because there's a woman there that I fancy.
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zato što je tamo žena koja mi se sviđa.
16:03
But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband."
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Ali udana je pa ću je morati razdvojiti od muža."
16:07
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
16:11
Anyway, that was two years ago,
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To se dogodilo prije dvije godine
16:14
and that's where my book ended.
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i tu je moja knjiga završila.
16:16
And for the last 20 months everything was fine.
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I u posljednjih 20 mjeseci sve je bilo dobro.
16:21
Nothing bad happened.
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Ništa loše se nije dogodilo.
16:23
He was living with a girl outside London.
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On je živio s djevojkom u predgrađu Londona.
16:25
He was, according to Brian the Scientologist,
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Pokušavao je, prema scijentologu Brianu,
16:27
making up for lost time -- which I know sounds ominous,
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nadoknaditi propušteno vrijeme-- što znam da zvuči zloslutno,
16:30
but isn't necessarily ominous.
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ali nije nužno tako.
16:32
Unfortunately, after 20 months,
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Na žalost, nakon 20 mjeseci,
16:34
he did go back to jail for a month.
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vratio se u zatvor na mjesec dana.
16:37
He got into a fracas in a bar, he called it --
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Upao je u gungulu, kako je on to nazvao --
16:41
ended up going to jail for a month,
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završio u zatvoru na mjesec dana,
16:43
which I know is bad,
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što znam da je loše,
16:44
but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was,
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ali barem tih mjesec dana označava
da kakva god to gungula bila,
da kakva god to gungula bila,
16:47
it wasn't too bad.
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da nije bilo tako strašno.
16:50
And then he phoned me.
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I onda me nazvao.
16:53
And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out.
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Mislim da je ispravno što je Tony na slobodi.
16:58
Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges.
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Zato što ne bismo smjeli definirati ljude prema njihovim najluđim obilježjima.
17:02
And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath.
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A Tony je polu-psihopat.
17:05
He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas.
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On je sredina u svijetu koji ne voli sredinu.
17:11
But the gray areas are where you find the complexity,
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Ali u sredini nalazimo kompleksnost,
17:15
it's where you find the humanity
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ondje nalazimo ljudskost
17:19
and it's where you find the truth.
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i tamo nalazimo istinu.
17:22
And Tony said to me,
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Tony me pitao:
17:24
"Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar?
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''Jon, mogu li te počastiti pićem u kafiću?
17:28
I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me."
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Želim ti se zahvaliti za sve što si učinio za mene.''
17:31
And I didn't go. What would you have done?
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Ali nisam otišao. Što biste vi učinili?
17:36
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
17:37
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmakerJon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession.
Why you should listen
For his latest book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed, Jon Ronson spent three years traveling the world and talking to people who'd been subjected to high-profile public shamings. Whatever their transgression, the response was to be faced by an angry mob, as Ronson calls them "collective outrage circles" devoted to tearing down said person from any position of power. It does not, Ronson suggests gently, reflect so well on society as a whole.
In a previous book, The Psychopath Test, Ronson explored the unnerving world of psychopaths -- a group that includes both incarcerated killers and, one of his subjects insists, plenty of CEOs. In his books, films and articles, Ronson explores madness and obsession of all kinds, from the US military's experiments in psychic warfare to the obscene and hate-filled yet Christian rap of the Insane Clown Posse. He wrote a column for the Guardian, hosted an essay program on Radio 4 in the United Kingdom, and contributes to This American Life.
Jon Ronson | Speaker | TED.com