TEDNYC
Megan Phelps-Roper: I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left
Megan Phelps-Roper: Odrasla sam u baptističkoj crkvi Westboro. Zbog ovog sam otišla
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Readability: 4.5
9,147,153 views
Kako je odrastati u grupi ljudi koja likuje demonizacijom ... svih ostalih? Megan Phelps-Roper podijelit će detalje života u jednoj od najkontroverznijih crkava u Americi i opisat će kako su i zašto razgovori na Twitteru bili ključni u njenoj odluci o odlasku. U ovom izvanrednom govoru podijelit će svoje osobno iskustvo ekstremne polarizacije te neke načine uz koje možemo uspješno naučiti kako se angažirati unatoč ideološkim granicama.
Megan Phelps-Roper - Writer, activist
A former member of Westboro Baptist Church, Megan Phelps-Roper is now a writer and educator on topics related to extremism, bullying and empathy in dialogue. Full bio
A former member of Westboro Baptist Church, Megan Phelps-Roper is now a writer and educator on topics related to extremism, bullying and empathy in dialogue. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I was a blue-eyed,
chubby-cheeked five-year-old
chubby-cheeked five-year-old
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Bila sam plavooka
petogodišnjakinja bucmastih obraza
petogodišnjakinja bucmastih obraza
00:15
when I joined my family
on the picket line for the first time.
on the picket line for the first time.
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kad sam se pridružila svojoj obitelji
pred ogradama.
pred ogradama.
Mama me natjerala
da lutke ostavim u kombiju.
da lutke ostavim u kombiju.
00:19
My mom made me leave
my dolls in the minivan.
my dolls in the minivan.
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00:22
I'd stand on a street corner
in the heavy Kansas humidity,
in the heavy Kansas humidity,
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Stajala sam na uglu ulice
na teškoj vlazi Kansasa
na teškoj vlazi Kansasa
okružena desecima rođaka,
00:25
surrounded by a few dozen relatives,
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a moje su ručice držale znak s natpisom
kojeg još nisam znala pročitati:
kojeg još nisam znala pročitati:
00:28
with my tiny fists clutching
a sign that I couldn't read yet:
a sign that I couldn't read yet:
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00:32
"Gays are worthy of death."
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"Gejevi zaslužuju smrt."
00:35
This was the beginning.
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To je bio početak.
00:37
Our protests soon became
a daily occurrence
a daily occurrence
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Naši su prosvjedi postali dnevna pojava
i međunarodni fenomen,
00:39
and an international phenomenon,
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a kao članica
Westborovske baptističke crkve,
Westborovske baptističke crkve,
00:41
and as a member
of Westboro Baptist Church,
of Westboro Baptist Church,
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postala sam stalni gost
ograda po cijeloj zemlji.
ograda po cijeloj zemlji.
00:43
I became a fixture
on picket lines across the country.
on picket lines across the country.
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Kraj moje karijere prosvjednika
00:46
The end of my antigay picketing career
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i života kakvog sam poznavala
00:49
and life as I knew it,
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došao je 20 godina kasnije,
00:50
came 20 years later,
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djelomično uzrokovan strancima na Twitteru
00:52
triggered in part by strangers on Twitter
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koji su mi pokazali
moć angažiranja drugih.
moć angažiranja drugih.
00:54
who showed me the power
of engaging the other.
of engaging the other.
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00:59
In my home,
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U mom domu
život je bio prikazivan kao
epska duhovna borba dobra i zla.
epska duhovna borba dobra i zla.
01:00
life was framed as an epic
spiritual battle between good and evil.
spiritual battle between good and evil.
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01:04
The good was my church and its members,
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Dobro su predstavljali moja crkva
i njeni članovi,
i njeni članovi,
a zlo svi ostali.
01:06
and the evil was everyone else.
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01:09
My church's antics were such
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Zbog budalaština moje crkve
konstantno smo bili
u borbi sa svijetom,
u borbi sa svijetom,
01:11
that we were constantly
at odds with the world,
at odds with the world,
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a to bi svakodnevno
pojačavalo našu različitost.
pojačavalo našu različitost.
01:13
and that reinforced
our otherness on a daily basis.
our otherness on a daily basis.
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01:17
"Make a difference
between the unclean and the clean,"
between the unclean and the clean,"
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"Razlikuj nečisto od čistog,"
stih kaže,
01:20
the verse says,
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pa i jesmo.
01:21
and so we did.
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Od utakmica bejzbola
do vojnih sprovoda,
do vojnih sprovoda,
01:23
From baseball games to military funerals,
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putovali smo zemljom
s neonskim prosvjednim plakatima u rukama
s neonskim prosvjednim plakatima u rukama
01:25
we trekked across the country
with neon protest signs in hand
with neon protest signs in hand
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kako bi drugima rekli
koliku su zapravo "nečisti"
koliku su zapravo "nečisti"
01:28
to tell others exactly
how "unclean" they were
how "unclean" they were
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i zašto ih čeka prokletstvo.
01:31
and exactly why
they were headed for damnation.
they were headed for damnation.
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01:35
This was the focus of our whole lives.
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To je bilo središte naših života.
01:38
This was the only way for me to do good
in a world that sits in Satan's lap.
in a world that sits in Satan's lap.
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To je bio jedini način da činim dobro
u svijetu koji sjedi na krilu vraga.
u svijetu koji sjedi na krilu vraga.
01:43
And like the rest of my 10 siblings,
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I poput mojih ostalih 10 braće i sestara,
vjerovala sam u što su me učili
cijelim srcem,
cijelim srcem,
01:45
I believed what I was taught
with all my heart,
with all my heart,
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i izvršavala sam namjere Westbora
s posebnim žarom.
s posebnim žarom.
01:47
and I pursued Westboro's agenda
with a special sort of zeal.
with a special sort of zeal.
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01:52
In 2009, that zeal brought me to Twitter.
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U 2009., taj me žar doveo na Twitter.
01:55
Initially, the people
I encountered on the platform
I encountered on the platform
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Na početku su ljudi
na koje sam tamo naišla
na koje sam tamo naišla
bili neljubazni,
baš kao što sam očekivala.
baš kao što sam očekivala.
01:58
were just as hostile as I expected.
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Bili su digitalna verzija
vrištećih horda ljudi
vrištećih horda ljudi
02:00
They were the digital version
of the screaming hordes
of the screaming hordes
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koje sam gledala na prosvjedima
još odmalena.
još odmalena.
02:02
I'd been seeing at protests
since I was a kid.
since I was a kid.
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No usred sve te digitalne svađe
02:05
But in the midst of that digital brawl,
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razvio se čudan uzorak.
02:07
a strange pattern developed.
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Netko bi stigao na moj profil
s uobičajenim bijesom i prezirom,
s uobičajenim bijesom i prezirom,
02:10
Someone would arrive at my profile
with the usual rage and scorn,
with the usual rage and scorn,
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odgovorila bih sa svojom mješavinom
biblijskih stihova, referenci na pop kulturu
biblijskih stihova, referenci na pop kulturu
02:14
I would respond with a custom mix
of Bible verses, pop culture references
of Bible verses, pop culture references
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02:19
and smiley faces.
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i smajlića.
02:21
They would be understandably
confused and caught off guard,
confused and caught off guard,
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Tako bih ih, razumljivo, zbunila,
no onda bi slijedio razgovor.
02:25
but then a conversation would ensue.
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02:28
And it was civil --
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Bio je civilan --
pun istinske znatiželje na obje strane.
02:29
full of genuine curiosity on both sides.
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02:32
How had the other come to such
outrageous conclusions about the world?
outrageous conclusions about the world?
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Kako je onaj drugi došao do tako
nečuvenih zaključaka o svijetu?
nečuvenih zaključaka o svijetu?
02:37
Sometimes the conversation
even bled into real life.
even bled into real life.
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Nekad bi se razgovor
prebacio i u stvarni svijet.
prebacio i u stvarni svijet.
Ljudi s kojima sam boksala na Twitteru
02:40
People I'd sparred with on Twitter
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02:41
would come out
to the picket line to see me
to the picket line to see me
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došli bi me vidjeti kraj ograde
kad sam prosvjedovala u njihovom gradu.
02:44
when I protested in their city.
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02:46
A man named David was one such person.
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David je bio takva osoba.
02:49
He ran a blog called "Jewlicious,"
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Upravljao je blogom
koji se zvao "Jewlicious"
koji se zvao "Jewlicious"
i nakon nekoliko mjeseci strastvenih,
no prijateljskih online rasprava
no prijateljskih online rasprava
02:52
and after several months
of heated but friendly arguments online,
of heated but friendly arguments online,
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02:55
he came out to see me
at a picket in New Orleans.
at a picket in New Orleans.
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došao me upoznati kraj ograde
u New Orleansu.
u New Orleansu.
02:58
He brought me a Middle Eastern dessert
from Jerusalem, where he lives,
from Jerusalem, where he lives,
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Donio mi je srednjoistočni desert
iz Jeruzalema, gdje živi,
iz Jeruzalema, gdje živi,
a ja sam njemu donijela
košer čokoladu
košer čokoladu
03:02
and I brought him kosher chocolate
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i držala znak na kojem piše
"Bog mrzi Židove."
"Bog mrzi Židove."
03:04
and held a "God hates Jews" sign.
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03:06
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
Nije bilo zabune
o našim stajalištima,
o našim stajalištima,
03:09
There was no confusion
about our positions,
about our positions,
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no granica između prijatelja
i neprijatelja postala je jako nejasna.
i neprijatelja postala je jako nejasna.
03:11
but the line between friend and foe
was becoming blurred.
was becoming blurred.
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03:14
We'd started to see each other
as human beings,
as human beings,
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Vidjeli smo jedno drugoga
kao ljude,
kao ljude,
a to je promijenilo način
na koji smo razgovarali.
na koji smo razgovarali.
03:17
and it changed the way
we spoke to one another.
we spoke to one another.
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Trebalo je vremena,
03:20
It took time,
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no ti su razgovori konačno
u mene usadili sjeme sumnje.
u mene usadili sjeme sumnje.
03:21
but eventually these conversations
planted seeds of doubt in me.
planted seeds of doubt in me.
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03:25
My friends on Twitter took the time
to understand Westboro's doctrines,
to understand Westboro's doctrines,
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Moji prijatelji na Twitteru
pokušali su shvatiti Westborovsku doktrinu
pokušali su shvatiti Westborovsku doktrinu
i radeći to
03:28
and in doing so,
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uspjeli su naći proturječja
koja dotad nisam uočila.
koja dotad nisam uočila.
03:30
they were able to find inconsistencies
I'd missed my entire life.
I'd missed my entire life.
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03:34
Why did we advocate
the death penalty for gays
the death penalty for gays
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Zašto smo podržavali
smrtnu kaznu za gejeve
smrtnu kaznu za gejeve
kad je Isus rekao "Tko je od vas
bez grijeha, neka baci prvi kamen?"
bez grijeha, neka baci prvi kamen?"
03:37
when Jesus said, "Let he who is
without sin cast the first stone?"
without sin cast the first stone?"
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03:41
How could we claim to love our neighbor
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Kako smo tvrdili da volimo svog susjeda,
dok smo se u isto vrijeme molili
da će ga Bog uništiti?
da će ga Bog uništiti?
03:43
while at the same time
praying for God to destroy them?
praying for God to destroy them?
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03:47
The truth is that the care shown to me
by these strangers on the internet
by these strangers on the internet
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Istina je da je briga koju su mi
ti neznanci na internetu pokazali
ti neznanci na internetu pokazali
i sama bila proturječje.
03:51
was itself a contradiction.
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03:54
It was growing evidence
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Bila je dokaz
da ljudi na drugoj strani nisu demoni
kojim sam ih smatrala.
kojim sam ih smatrala.
03:55
that people on the other side were not
the demons I'd been led to believe.
the demons I'd been led to believe.
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04:00
These realizations were life-altering.
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Shvatiti to promijenilo mi je život.
04:03
Once I saw that we were not
the ultimate arbiters of divine truth
the ultimate arbiters of divine truth
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Kad sam shvatila da nismo
najviši suci božanske istine,
najviši suci božanske istine,
nego ljudi s manama,
04:06
but flawed human beings,
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nisam se više mogla pretvarati.
04:08
I couldn't pretend otherwise.
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04:10
I couldn't justify our actions --
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Nisam mogla opravdati naša djela --
pogotovo naš okrutni običaj
protestiranja na sprovodima
protestiranja na sprovodima
04:12
especially our cruel practice
of protesting funerals
of protesting funerals
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i slavljenja ljudske tragedije.
04:15
and celebrating human tragedy.
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04:19
These shifts in my perspective
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Te promjene moje perspektive
dovele su do veće erozije
povjerenja u moju crkvu
povjerenja u moju crkvu
04:21
contributed to a larger erosion
of trust in my church,
of trust in my church,
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i na kraju zbog njih
više nisam mogla ostati.
više nisam mogla ostati.
04:24
and eventually it made it
impossible for me to stay.
impossible for me to stay.
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04:28
In spite of overwhelming grief and terror,
I left Westboro in 2012.
I left Westboro in 2012.
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Unatoč ogromnoj tuzi i strahu,
napustila sam Westboro u 2012.
napustila sam Westboro u 2012.
04:34
In those days just after I left,
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Idućih par dana nakon mojeg odlaska
04:36
the instinct to hide
was almost paralyzing.
was almost paralyzing.
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instinkt da se sakrijem
bio je paralizirajuć.
bio je paralizirajuć.
Željela sam se sakriti
od osuđivanja svoje obitelji,
od osuđivanja svoje obitelji,
04:40
I wanted to hide
from the judgement of my family,
from the judgement of my family,
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znala sam da više nikad
neće pričati sa mnom --
neće pričati sa mnom --
04:42
who I knew would never
speak to me again --
speak to me again --
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04:44
people whose thoughts and opinions
had meant everything to me.
had meant everything to me.
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ljudi čije su mi misli i mišljenja
najviše značila.
najviše značila.
04:48
And I wanted to hide from the world
I'd rejected for so long --
I'd rejected for so long --
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I željela sam se sakriti od svijeta
kojeg sam tako dugo odbacivala --
kojeg sam tako dugo odbacivala --
ljudi koji nisu imali nijedan razlog
da mi daju drugu šansu
da mi daju drugu šansu
04:51
people who had no reason at all
to give me a second chance
to give me a second chance
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nakon cjeloživotnog antagonizma.
04:54
after a lifetime of antagonism.
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04:57
And yet, unbelievably,
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A ipak, nevjerojatno,
jesu.
04:59
they did.
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Svijet je imao pristup mojoj prošlosti
jer je bila posvuda na internetu --
jer je bila posvuda na internetu --
05:00
The world had access to my past
because it was all over the internet --
because it was all over the internet --
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05:04
thousands of tweets
and hundreds of interviews,
and hundreds of interviews,
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tisuće tweetova
i stotine intervjua,
i stotine intervjua,
sve od lokalnih vijesti
do "The Howard Stern Show-a" --
do "The Howard Stern Show-a" --
05:06
everything from local TV news
to "The Howard Stern Show" --
to "The Howard Stern Show" --
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no toliko me ljudi svejedno
primilo otvorenih ruku.
primilo otvorenih ruku.
05:10
but so many embraced me
with open arms anyway.
with open arms anyway.
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Napisala sam ispriku
za svo zlo koje sam načinila,
za svo zlo koje sam načinila,
05:13
I wrote an apology
for the harm I'd caused,
for the harm I'd caused,
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05:15
but I also knew that an apology
could never undo any of it.
could never undo any of it.
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no znala sam da isprika
to nikada neće moći poništiti.
to nikada neće moći poništiti.
05:19
All I could do was try to build a new life
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Mogla sam samo probati izgraditi
nov život
nov život
i naći način da popravim dio štete.
05:22
and find a way somehow
to repair some of the damage.
to repair some of the damage.
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Ljudi su imali stotinu razloga
sumnjati u iskrenost,
sumnjati u iskrenost,
05:26
People had every reason
to doubt my sincerity,
to doubt my sincerity,
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no većina njih nije.
05:28
but most of them didn't.
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05:30
And --
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Te --
uzevši u obzir moju povijest,
05:32
given my history,
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05:33
it was more than I could've hoped for --
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nisam se ni mogla nadati nečem većem --
opraštanje i ne donošenje
preuranjenih zaključaka.
preuranjenih zaključaka.
05:35
forgiveness and the benefit of the doubt.
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Još uvijek me zadivljuje.
05:38
It still amazes me.
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05:40
I spent my first year away from home
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Prvu godinu izvan kuće provela sam
bez nekakvog odredišta s mlađom sestrom
05:44
adrift with my younger sister,
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05:46
who had chosen to leave with me.
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koja je odlučila otići sa mnom.
05:48
We walked into an abyss,
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Uhodale smo u bezdan,
no iznenadile smo se
jer smo našle svjetlo i put naprijed
jer smo našle svjetlo i put naprijed
05:50
but we were shocked to find
the light and a way forward
the light and a way forward
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u istim zajednicama
koje su nam tako dugo bile mete.
koje su nam tako dugo bile mete.
05:54
in the same communities
we'd targeted for so long.
we'd targeted for so long.
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05:57
David,
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David,
moj "Jewlicious" prijatelj s Twittera,
05:58
my "Jewlicious" friend from Twitter,
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pozvao nas je da odsjednemo
u Židovskoj zajednici u Los Angelesu.
u Židovskoj zajednici u Los Angelesu.
06:00
invited us to spend time among
a Jewish community in Los Angeles.
a Jewish community in Los Angeles.
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Spavali smo na kaučima u kući
hasidskog rabina, njegove žene,
hasidskog rabina, njegove žene,
06:04
We slept on couches in the home
of a Hasidic rabbi and his wife
of a Hasidic rabbi and his wife
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i njihovih četvero djece --
06:07
and their four kids --
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06:09
the same rabbi that I'd protested
three years earlier
three years earlier
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rabina protiv kojeg sam
prosvjedovala tri godine ranije
prosvjedovala tri godine ranije
sa znakom "Tvoj rabin je kurva."
06:12
with a sign that said,
"Your rabbi is a whore."
"Your rabbi is a whore."
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06:16
We spent long hours talking
about theology and Judaism and life
about theology and Judaism and life
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Satima smo razgovarali o teologiji,
Židovstvu i životu
Židovstvu i životu
dok smo prali suđe
u njihovoj košer kuhinji
u njihovoj košer kuhinji
06:20
while we washed dishes
in their kosher kitchen
in their kosher kitchen
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i sjeckali povrće za večeru.
06:23
and chopped vegetables for dinner.
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Ponašali su se prema nama
kao prema obitelji.
kao prema obitelji.
06:25
They treated us like family.
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06:27
They held nothing against us,
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Ništa nam nisu zamjerali,
i iznova me to zapanjilo.
06:29
and again I was astonished.
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06:32
That period was full of turmoil,
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To je razdoblje bilo puno nemira,
no često se vraćam
06:34
but one part I've returned to often
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iznenađujućem saznanju
koje sam tada imala --
koje sam tada imala --
06:36
is a surprising realization
I had during that time --
I had during that time --
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06:40
that it was a relief and a privilege
to let go of the harsh judgments
to let go of the harsh judgments
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bilo je olakšanje i privilegija
napustiti okrutne osude
napustiti okrutne osude
koje su instinktivno prolazile mojim umom
o svakoj osobi koju sam vidjela.
o svakoj osobi koju sam vidjela.
06:44
that instinctively ran through my mind
about nearly every person I saw.
about nearly every person I saw.
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06:49
I realized that now I needed to learn.
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Shvatila sam da trebam učiti.
06:53
I needed to listen.
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Trebam slušati.
06:55
This has been at the front
of my mind lately,
of my mind lately,
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U zadnje vrijeme to često imam na umu,
jer ne mogu ne vidjeti
u javnim raspravama
u javnim raspravama
06:57
because I can't help but see
in our public discourse
in our public discourse
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iste destruktivne impulse
koji su vladali mojom crkvom.
koji su vladali mojom crkvom.
07:00
so many of the same destructive impulses
that ruled my former church.
that ruled my former church.
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07:05
We celebrate tolerance and diversity
more than at any other time in memory,
more than at any other time in memory,
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Slavimo toleranciju i raznolikost
više nego ikad,
više nego ikad,
a ipak smo sve više međusobno podijeljeni.
07:09
and still we grow more and more divided.
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07:12
We want good things --
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Želimo dobre stvari --
pravdu, jednakost,
slobodu, dostojanstvo, prosperitet --
slobodu, dostojanstvo, prosperitet --
07:14
justice, equality,
freedom, dignity, prosperity --
freedom, dignity, prosperity --
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no put koji smo izabrali
07:18
but the path we've chosen
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07:19
looks so much like the one
I walked away from four years ago.
I walked away from four years ago.
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jako je sličan onom
koji sam napustila prije četiri godine.
koji sam napustila prije četiri godine.
07:23
We've broken the world into us and them,
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Razdvojili smo svijet na nas i njih,
iz svojih bunkera izlazimo tek
07:26
only emerging from our bunkers long enough
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da prebacimo retoričke granate
na drugi logor.
na drugi logor.
07:28
to lob rhetorical grenades
at the other camp.
at the other camp.
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07:31
We write off half the country
as out-of-touch liberal elites
as out-of-touch liberal elites
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Otpisujemo pola zemlje kao
zastarjele liberalne elite
zastarjele liberalne elite
ili rasističke nasilnike, mrzitelje žena.
07:35
or racist misogynist bullies.
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07:38
No nuance, no complexity, no humanity.
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Bez razlike, bez složenosti,
bez ljudskosti.
bez ljudskosti.
07:42
Even when someone does call for empathy
and understanding for the other side,
and understanding for the other side,
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Čak i kad netko zatraži empatiju
i razumijevanje za drugu stranu,
i razumijevanje za drugu stranu,
razgovor je gotovo uvijek doveden
07:46
the conversation nearly always devolves
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do debate o tome
tko zaslužuje više empatije.
tko zaslužuje više empatije.
07:48
into a debate about
who deserves more empathy.
who deserves more empathy.
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07:51
And just as I learned to do,
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Baš kao što sam i ja naučila,
07:53
we routinely refuse to acknowledge
the flaws in our positions
the flaws in our positions
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rutinski odbijamo priznati
mane u našim stajalištima
mane u našim stajalištima
ili vrijednosti u istima
naših protivnika.
naših protivnika.
07:56
or the merits in our opponent's.
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07:59
Compromise is anathema.
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Kompromis je anatema.
08:01
We even target people on our own side
when they dare to question the party line.
when they dare to question the party line.
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Napadamo i ljude na našoj strani
kad se usude sumnjati u stranku.
kad se usude sumnjati u stranku.
08:06
This path has brought us cruel,
sniping, deepening polarization,
sniping, deepening polarization,
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Ovaj nam je put donio okrutnu,
produbljujuću polarizaciju,
produbljujuću polarizaciju,
čak i izljeve nasilja.
08:11
and even outbreaks of violence.
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08:13
I remember this path.
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Sjećam se tog puta.
Neće nas dovesti ondje gdje želimo ići.
08:15
It will not take us where we want to go.
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08:19
What gives me hope is that
we can do something about this.
we can do something about this.
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Daje mi nadu što možemo nešto
napraviti u vezi toga.
napraviti u vezi toga.
08:22
The good news is that it's simple,
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Dobra je vijest da je jednostavno,
08:24
and the bad news is that it's hard.
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a loša je vijest da je teško.
08:27
We have to talk and listen
to people we disagree with.
to people we disagree with.
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Moramo pričati i slušati
ljude s kojima se ne slažemo.
ljude s kojima se ne slažemo.
08:32
It's hard because we often can't fathom
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Teško je jer često ne možemo shvatiti
kako je druga strana došla
do svojih stajališta.
do svojih stajališta.
08:33
how the other side
came to their positions.
came to their positions.
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08:36
It's hard because righteous indignation,
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Teško je, jer pravedni gnjev,
osjećaj sigurnosti
da je naša prava strana,
da je naša prava strana,
08:39
that sense of certainty
that ours is the right side,
that ours is the right side,
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zna biti iznimno zavodljiv.
08:42
is so seductive.
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08:44
It's hard because it means
extending empathy and compassion
extending empathy and compassion
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Teško je jer znači produžiti
empatiju i samilost
empatiju i samilost
na ljude koji nam pokazuju
prezir i neljubaznost.
prezir i neljubaznost.
08:48
to people who show us
hostility and contempt.
hostility and contempt.
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08:51
The impulse to respond in kind
is so tempting,
is so tempting,
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Impuls da im uzvratimo
primamljiv je,
primamljiv je,
08:55
but that isn't who we want to be.
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ali ne želimo biti takvi.
Možemo se oduprijeti.
08:57
We can resist.
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Uvijek ću biti nadahnuta za odupiranje,
zbog ljudi na koje sam naišla na Twitteru,
zbog ljudi na koje sam naišla na Twitteru,
08:59
And I will always be inspired to do so
by those people I encountered on Twitter,
by those people I encountered on Twitter,
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očitih neprijatelja
koji su postali moji dragi prijatelji.
koji su postali moji dragi prijatelji.
09:03
apparent enemies
who became my beloved friends.
who became my beloved friends.
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Isti je slučaj s jednim osobito
suosjećajnim i darežljivim dečkom,
suosjećajnim i darežljivim dečkom,
09:07
And in the case of one particularly
understanding and generous guy,
understanding and generous guy,
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mojim mužem.
09:10
my husband.
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09:12
There was nothing special
about the way I responded to him.
about the way I responded to him.
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Ništa nije bilo posebno
u odgovoru koji sam mu napisala.
u odgovoru koji sam mu napisala.
09:16
What was special was their approach.
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Poseban je bio njihov pristup.
09:20
I thought about it a lot
over the past few years
over the past few years
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Puno sam o tome razmišljala
zadnjih par godina
zadnjih par godina
i našla sam četiri stvari
koje su drukčije napravili
koje su drukčije napravili
09:22
and I found four things
they did differently
they did differently
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zbog kojih je pravi razgovor
postao moguć.
postao moguć.
09:25
that made real conversation possible.
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09:29
These four steps were small but powerful,
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Ta četiri koraka mala su,
ali moćna,
ali moćna,
i radim sve što mogu kako bih
ih upotrijebila u teškim razgovorima.
ih upotrijebila u teškim razgovorima.
09:31
and I do everything I can to employ them
in difficult conversations today.
in difficult conversations today.
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09:36
The first is don't assume bad intent.
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Prvi je ne pretpostavljati lošu namjeru.
Moji prijatelji na Twitteru shvatili su
09:40
My friends on Twitter realized
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09:41
that even when my words
were aggressive and offensive,
were aggressive and offensive,
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2936
da, čak i ako su moje riječi
bile agresivne i uvredljive,
bile agresivne i uvredljive,
iskreno sam vjerovala
da radim pravu stvar.
da radim pravu stvar.
09:44
I sincerely believed
I was doing the right thing.
I was doing the right thing.
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Pretpostaviti zao motiv
odmah nam ne dopušta
odmah nam ne dopušta
09:47
Assuming ill motives
almost instantly cuts us off
almost instantly cuts us off
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da stvarno shvatimo
zašto osoba radi i vjeruje u nešto.
zašto osoba radi i vjeruje u nešto.
09:50
from truly understanding
why someone does and believes as they do.
why someone does and believes as they do.
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Zaboravimo da je to čovjek
09:54
We forget that they're a human being
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sa životnim iskustvima
koja su oblikovala njegov um,
koja su oblikovala njegov um,
09:56
with a lifetime of experience
that shaped their mind,
that shaped their mind,
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a mi zaglavimo na prvom
valu ljutnje,
valu ljutnje,
09:59
and we get stuck
on that first wave of anger,
on that first wave of anger,
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tako da razgovor ima male
šanse za nastavak.
šanse za nastavak.
10:02
and the conversation has a very hard time
ever moving beyond it.
ever moving beyond it.
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10:06
But when we assume good or neutral intent,
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No kad pretpostavimo dobru
ili neutralnu namjeru,
ili neutralnu namjeru,
svojim umovima dajemo puno jači
okvir za dijalog.
okvir za dijalog.
10:09
we give our minds a much stronger
framework for dialogue.
framework for dialogue.
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10:14
The second is ask questions.
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Drugi je postavljanje pitanja.
10:17
When we engage people
across ideological divides,
across ideological divides,
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Kad angažiramo ljude
duž ideoloških podjela,
duž ideoloških podjela,
postavljanje pitanja
pomaže nam naći
pomaže nam naći
10:20
asking questions
helps us map the disconnect
helps us map the disconnect
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gdje se naša stajališta razilaze.
10:22
between our differing points of view.
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10:25
That's important because
we can't present effective arguments
we can't present effective arguments
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To je bitno jer
ne možemo dati efikasne argumente
ne možemo dati efikasne argumente
10:28
if we don't understand where
the other side is actually coming from
the other side is actually coming from
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ako ne razumijemo otkud
druga strana dolazi
druga strana dolazi
10:32
and because it gives them an opportunity
to point out flaws in our positions.
to point out flaws in our positions.
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i jer im daje priliku
istaknuti mane u našim stajalištima.
istaknuti mane u našim stajalištima.
10:37
But asking questions
serves another purpose;
serves another purpose;
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No postavljanje pitanja
ima i drugu svrhu;
ima i drugu svrhu;
pokazuje nekome
da ih čujemo.
da ih čujemo.
10:39
it signals to someone
that they're being heard.
that they're being heard.
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Kad su moji prijatelji sa Twittera
prestali okrivljavati
prestali okrivljavati
10:42
When my friends on Twitter
stopped accusing
stopped accusing
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10:44
and started asking questions,
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i počeli postavljati pitanja,
gotovo sam automatski
počela raditi istu stvar.
počela raditi istu stvar.
10:46
I almost automatically mirrored them.
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Zbog njihovih sam pitanja
imala gdje pričati,
imala gdje pričati,
10:49
Their questions gave me room to speak,
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10:51
but they also gave me permission
to ask them questions
to ask them questions
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3376
no tako su mi dali dopuštenje
da njima postavljam pitanja
da njima postavljam pitanja
i da stvarno čujem njihove odgovore.
10:55
and to truly hear their responses.
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10:57
It fundamentally changed
the dynamic of our conversation.
the dynamic of our conversation.
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Istinski je promijenilo
dinamiku našeg razgovora.
dinamiku našeg razgovora.
11:02
The third is stay calm.
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Treći je korak ostati miran.
11:05
This takes practice and patience,
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Za to je potrebna
vježba i strpljenje,
vježba i strpljenje,
no moćno je.
11:06
but it's powerful.
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11:08
At Westboro, I learned not to care
how my manner of speaking affected others.
how my manner of speaking affected others.
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U Westboru sam naučila ne brinuti
o utjecaju mog načina govorenja na druge.
o utjecaju mog načina govorenja na druge.
Mislila sam da to što sam u pravu
opravdava moju nepristojnost --
opravdava moju nepristojnost --
11:13
I thought my rightness
justified my rudeness --
justified my rudeness --
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grubi tonovi, povišeni glasovi,
uvrede, prekidi --
uvrede, prekidi --
11:16
harsh tones, raised voices,
insults, interruptions --
insults, interruptions --
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ta strategija nije
pretjerano produktivna.
pretjerano produktivna.
11:19
but that strategy
is ultimately counterproductive.
is ultimately counterproductive.
228
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2440
11:22
Dialing up the volume and the snark
is natural in stressful situations,
is natural in stressful situations,
229
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Pojačati glasnoću i sarkazam
prirodno je u stresnim situacijama,
prirodno je u stresnim situacijama,
ali često vodi razgovor
prema razočaravajućem, eksplozivnom kraju.
prema razočaravajućem, eksplozivnom kraju.
11:26
but it tends to bring the conversation
to an unsatisfactory, explosive end.
to an unsatisfactory, explosive end.
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11:32
When my husband was still
just an anonymous Twitter acquaintance,
just an anonymous Twitter acquaintance,
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Dok je moj muž još bio
tek anoniman poznanik sa Twittera,
tek anoniman poznanik sa Twittera,
naše su rasprave često
postajale teške i prodorne,
postajale teške i prodorne,
11:35
our discussions frequently
became hard and pointed,
became hard and pointed,
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no odbijali smo eskalirati.
11:38
but we always refused to escalate.
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11:41
Instead, he would change the subject.
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1936
Umjesto toga, promijenio bi temu.
Ispričao bi vic
ili preporučio knjigu
ili preporučio knjigu
11:43
He would tell a joke or recommend a book
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ili se nježno odmaknuo od razgovora.
11:45
or gently excuse himself
from the conversation.
from the conversation.
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11:49
We knew the discussion wasn't over,
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Znali smo da rasprava nije gotova,
samo smo ju pauzirali
kako bi se vratili na istu razinu.
kako bi se vratili na istu razinu.
11:51
just paused for a time
to bring us back to an even keel.
to bring us back to an even keel.
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Ljudi se često žale da nas digitalna
komunikacija čini manje civilnima,
komunikacija čini manje civilnima,
11:55
People often lament that digital
communication makes us less civil,
communication makes us less civil,
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3176
11:58
but this is one advantage that online
conversations have over in-person ones.
conversations have over in-person ones.
240
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no ovo je prednost koju online
razgovori imaju pred onima vođenima uživo.
razgovori imaju pred onima vođenima uživo.
12:03
We have a buffer of time and space
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Imamo štit vremena i prostora
između nas i ljudi
čije ideje smatramo frustrirajućima.
čije ideje smatramo frustrirajućima.
12:06
between us and the people
whose ideas we find so frustrating.
whose ideas we find so frustrating.
242
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12:10
We can use that buffer.
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Možemo iskoristiti taj štit.
Umjesto napada,
možemo se zaustaviti, disati,
možemo se zaustaviti, disati,
12:12
Instead of lashing out,
we can pause, breathe,
we can pause, breathe,
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promijeniti temu ili otići,
12:16
change the subject or walk away,
245
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pa se vratiti kad smo spremni.
12:18
and then come back to it when we're ready.
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12:22
And finally ...
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I napokon ...
12:24
make the argument.
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napravi argument.
12:28
This might seem obvious,
249
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1296
Možda se čini očito,
ali nuspojava
jakih uvjerenja je
jakih uvjerenja je
12:29
but one side effect
of having strong beliefs
of having strong beliefs
250
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da nekad pretpostavimo
12:32
is that we sometimes assume
251
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kako je, vrijednost našeg stajališta očita
ili bi trebala biti,
ili bi trebala biti,
12:33
that the value of our position
is or should be obvious and self-evident,
is or should be obvious and self-evident,
252
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5096
da ne trebamo braniti
svoja stajališta
svoja stajališta
12:38
that we shouldn't
have to defend our positions
have to defend our positions
253
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jer su očigledno toliko ispravna i dobra
12:41
because they're so clearly right and good
254
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da je to problem onoga
koji to ne shvaća --
koji to ne shvaća --
12:44
that if someone doesn't get it,
it's their problem --
it's their problem --
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nije moj posao educirati ga.
12:46
that it's not my job to educate them.
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12:49
But if it were that simple,
257
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Da je sve tako jednostavno,
vidjeli bismo stvari na isti način.
12:50
we would all see things the same way.
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12:53
As kind as my friends on Twitter were,
259
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Koliko su god moji prijatelji
s Twittera dragi,
s Twittera dragi,
da na kraju nisu izrekli
svoje argumente,
svoje argumente,
12:55
if they hadn't actually
made their arguments,
made their arguments,
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bilo bi mi puno teže vidjeti svijet
na različit način.
na različit način.
12:58
it would've been so much harder for me
to see the world in a different way.
to see the world in a different way.
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13:02
We are all a product of our upbringing,
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Svi smo mi proizvod
našeg odgoja,
našeg odgoja,
i naše vjere odražavaju
naša iskustva.
naša iskustva.
13:05
and our beliefs reflect our experiences.
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13:08
We can't expect others
to spontaneously change their own minds.
to spontaneously change their own minds.
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Ne možemo očekivati od drugih
da spontano promijene mišljenje.
da spontano promijene mišljenje.
13:12
If we want change,
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Želimo li promjenu,
moramo imati i razloge.
13:14
we have to make the case for it.
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13:17
My friends on Twitter didn't abandon
their beliefs or their principles --
their beliefs or their principles --
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Moji prijatelji s Twittera nisu
napustili svoja vjerovanja i principe --
napustili svoja vjerovanja i principe --
samo svoj prezir.
13:21
only their scorn.
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13:23
They channeled their
infinitely justifiable offense
infinitely justifiable offense
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Usmjerili su svoj
opravdan napad
opravdan napad
i došli k meni s britkim pitanjima
ublaženim ljubaznošću i humorom.
ublaženim ljubaznošću i humorom.
13:26
and came to me with pointed questions
tempered with kindness and humor.
tempered with kindness and humor.
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13:31
They approached me as a human being,
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Prišli su mi kao ljudskom biću,
i to je više promijenilo moj život
13:34
and that was more transformative
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13:35
than two full decades
of outrage, disdain and violence.
of outrage, disdain and violence.
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nego cijela dva desetljeća
bijesa, prezira i nasilja.
bijesa, prezira i nasilja.
13:40
I know that some might not have
the time or the energy or the patience
the time or the energy or the patience
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Znam da neki možda nemaju
vrijeme, energiju ili strpljenje
vrijeme, energiju ili strpljenje
za ovako opsežno sudjelovanje,
13:44
for extensive engagement,
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13:45
but as difficult as it can be,
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no koliko god teško bilo,
doprijeti do nekoga
s kim se ne slažemo
s kim se ne slažemo
13:47
reaching out to someone we disagree with
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opcija je dostupna svima nama.
13:50
is an option that is
available to all of us.
available to all of us.
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13:53
And I sincerely believe
that we can do hard things,
that we can do hard things,
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Iskreno vjerujem da možemo
učiniti teške stvari,
učiniti teške stvari,
ne samo za njih,
već i za nas i našu budućnost.
već i za nas i našu budućnost.
13:57
not just for them
but for us and our future.
but for us and our future.
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14:00
Escalating disgust
and intractable conflict
and intractable conflict
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Rastuće gađenje i tvrdoglavi sukobi
nisu nešto što želimo sebi,
14:03
are not what we want for ourselves,
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ili svojoj državi
14:05
or our country
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ili idućoj generaciji.
14:06
or our next generation.
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14:09
My mom said something to me
a few weeks before I left Westboro,
a few weeks before I left Westboro,
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Mama mi je rekla nešto par tjedana prije
no što sam napustila Westboro,
no što sam napustila Westboro,
kad sam se očajnički nadala
14:13
when I was desperately hoping
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kako postoji način
da ostanem s obitelji.
da ostanem s obitelji.
14:15
there was a way
I could stay with my family.
I could stay with my family.
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14:18
People I have loved
with every pulse of my heart
with every pulse of my heart
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S ljudima koje sam voljela
svakim otkucajem srca
svakim otkucajem srca
još i prije no što sam bila
petogodišnjakinja bucmastih obraza,
petogodišnjakinja bucmastih obraza,
14:21
since even before I was
that chubby-cheeked five-year-old,
that chubby-cheeked five-year-old,
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koja stoji pokraj ograde i drži znak
koji ne može pročitati.
koji ne može pročitati.
14:24
standing on a picket line
holding a sign I couldn't read.
holding a sign I couldn't read.
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14:28
She said, "You're just a human being,
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Rekla je, "Samo si čovjek,
moje drago, slatko dijete."
14:30
my dear, sweet child."
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14:33
She was asking me to be humble --
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Tražila je od mene da budem skromna --
ne preispitujem,
nego vjerujem u Boga i starije od sebe.
nego vjerujem u Boga i starije od sebe.
14:36
not to question
but to trust God and my elders.
but to trust God and my elders.
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14:39
But to me, she was missing
the bigger picture --
the bigger picture --
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Vjerovala sam da ona ne vidi veću sliku --
i oni su samo ljudi.
14:43
that we're all just human beings.
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14:46
That we should be guided
by that most basic fact,
by that most basic fact,
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Trebala bi nas voditi
samo ta osnovna činjenica
samo ta osnovna činjenica
i trebali bismo prilaziti jedni drugima
s darežljivošću i suosjećanjem.
s darežljivošću i suosjećanjem.
14:49
and approach one another
with generosity and compassion.
with generosity and compassion.
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14:52
Each one of us
contributes to the communities
contributes to the communities
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Svatko od nas pridonosi
zajednicama,
zajednicama,
kulturama i društvima
koje činimo.
koje činimo.
14:54
and the cultures and the societies
that we make up.
that we make up.
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14:58
The end of this spiral of rage and blame
begins with one person
begins with one person
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Kraj ovog vrtloga bijesa i krivnje
počinje s jednom osobom
počinje s jednom osobom
koja odbija prepustiti se
tim destruktivnim, zavodljivim impulsima.
tim destruktivnim, zavodljivim impulsima.
15:02
who refuses to indulge
these destructive, seductive impulses.
these destructive, seductive impulses.
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15:07
We just have to decide
that it's going to start with us.
that it's going to start with us.
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Mi samo trebamo odlučiti
da će početi s nama.
da će početi s nama.
Hvala vam.
15:10
Thank you.
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(Pljesak)
15:12
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Megan Phelps-Roper - Writer, activistA former member of Westboro Baptist Church, Megan Phelps-Roper is now a writer and educator on topics related to extremism, bullying and empathy in dialogue.
Why you should listen
Megan Phelps-Roper was raised in the Westboro Baptist Church, the Topeka, Kansas church known internationally for its daily public protests against members of the LGBT community, Jews, the military and countless others. As a child, teenager and early 20-something, she participated in the picketing almost daily and pioneered the use of social media in the church. Dialogue with "enemies" online proved instrumental in her deradicalization, and she left the church and her entire way of life in November 2012. Since then she has become an advocate for people and ideas she was taught to despise -- especially the value of empathy in dialogue with people across ideological lines. She speaks widely, engaging audiences in schools, universities, faith groups, and law enforcement anti-extremism workshops. Her forthcoming memoir will be published by Farrar, Straus and Giroux.
Megan Phelps-Roper | Speaker | TED.com