18:49
TEDxNorthwesternU

Alice Dreger: Is anatomy destiny?

アリス・ドレジャー: 性差は解剖学的宿命か?

Filmed:

アリス・ドレジャーは結合双生児や半陰陽者など身体に問題を抱える人たちに関わる仕事をしています。体にまつわる区別の中でも、男と女の区別はあいまいなものが多いと彼女は言います。そこから生じるのは、なぜ我々は解剖学的な特徴を宿命としてしまうのか、という大きな問題です。

- Historian
Alice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate. Full bio

I want you to imagine two couples
二組のカップルが
00:15
in the middle of 1979
1979年の中頃
00:18
on the exact same day, at the exact same moment,
まったく同じ日 同じ瞬間に
00:20
each conceiving a baby -- okay?
赤ちゃんを授かったとします
00:23
So two couples each conceiving one baby.
二組共 赤ちゃんができたのです
00:25
Now I don't want you to spend too much time imagining the conception,
受胎した過程は あまり考えないでください
00:27
because if you spend all that time imagining that conception,
考えすぎると
00:30
you're not going to listen to me.
うわの空になりますから
00:32
So just imagine that for a moment.
想像を少しだけしてください
00:34
And in this scenario,
一組のカップルでは
00:36
I want to imagine that, in one case,
Y染色体をもつ精子が
00:38
the sperm is carrying a Y chromosome,
卵子のX染色体と
00:40
meeting that X chromosome of the egg.
出会うとします
00:42
And in the other case,
もう1つのカップルでは
00:44
the sperm is carrying an X chromosome,
X染色体をもつ精子が
00:46
meeting the X chromosome of the egg.
卵子のX染色体と出会います
00:48
Both are viable; both take off.
どちらも生存可能としましょう
00:50
We'll come back to these people later.
この話は また後ほど
00:52
So I wear two hats
わたしは二つの事柄に
00:54
in most of what I do.
携わっています
00:56
As the one hat,
一つは
00:58
I do history of anatomy.
解剖学の歴史です
01:00
I'm a historian by training,
専門は歴史なので
01:02
and what I study in that case
この場合は
01:04
is the way that people have dealt with anatomy --
今までの人間や動物の体の扱われ方を
01:06
meaning human bodies, animal bodies --
研究しています
01:09
how they dealt with bodily fluids, concepts of bodies;
体液の扱い方や 体という概念
01:11
how have they thought about bodies.
体に対する考え方などです
01:14
The other hat that I've worn in my work
もう一つは
01:16
is as an activist,
患者の代弁をする
01:18
as a patient advocate --
活動をしています
01:20
or, as I sometimes say, as an impatient advocate --
医者にかかる患者のために
01:22
for people who are patients of doctors.
尽力しています
01:25
In that case, what I've worked with
今まで活動してきたのは
01:27
is people who have body types
社会において逸脱するような
01:29
that challenge social norms.
体型をもつ方々の活動です
01:31
So some of what I've worked on, for example,
例えば
01:33
is people who are conjoined twins --
結合双生児
01:35
two people within one body.
二人の体が結合している人たちや
01:37
Some of what I've worked on is people who have dwarfism --
小人症の人たち
01:39
so people who are much shorter than typical.
つまり 極めて身長の低い人たちです
01:41
And a lot of what I've worked on
少数派の性別をもつ人たちの
01:44
is people who have atypical sex --
取り組みをしてきました
01:46
so people who don't have the standard male
標準的な男性 もしくは
01:48
or the standard female body types.
女性の体型をもたない人たちです
01:50
And as a general term, we can use the term intersex for this.
半陰陽と呼ばれているもので
01:52
Intersex comes in a lot of different forms.
様々な状態があります
01:56
I'll just give you a few examples
標準的な男性や
01:58
of the types of ways you can have sex
女性ではない例を
02:00
that isn't standard for male or female.
いくつかあげてみましょう
02:02
So in one instance,
例えば
02:04
you can have somebody who has an XY chromosomal basis,
XY染色体をもつ人のY染色体上にある
02:06
and that SRY gene on the Y chromosome
SRY遺伝子は 胎児のときに
02:09
tells the proto-gonads, which we all have in the fetal life,
性腺から
02:12
to become testes.
精巣をつくる指示を出します
02:14
And so in the fetal life the testes are pumping out testosterone.
精巣から男性ホルモンが分泌されますが
02:16
But because this individual lacks receptors
この個人の場合は 男性ホルモン受容体が欠けているため
02:19
to hear that testosterone,
体が男性ホルモンを感知せず
02:22
the body doesn't react to the testosterone.
反応しません
02:24
And this is a syndrome called androgen insensitivity syndrome.
これはアンドロゲン不応症と呼ばれています
02:26
So lots of levels of testosterone, but no reaction to it.
男性ホルモンがどんどん出ても まったく感知しません
02:30
As a consequence, the body develops
その結果 体は女性の体のように
02:33
more along the female typical path.
発達します
02:35
When the child is born, she looks like a girl.
出生時は女児のようなので
02:37
She is a girl. She is raised as a girl.
女の子として育てられます
02:39
And it's often not until she hits puberty
多くの場合 思春期になり
02:42
and she's growing and developing breasts,
発育して 胸が大きくなっても
02:44
but she's not getting her period,
初潮がないために
02:46
that somebody figures out something's up here.
何かがおかしいと気づきます
02:48
And they do some tests and figure out
検査をすると
02:50
that, instead of having ovaries inside and a uterus,
卵巣や子宮の代わりに
02:52
she actually has testes inside, and she has a Y chromosome.
精巣があって Y染色体をもっていることがわかります
02:54
Now what's important to understand
ここで重要なのは
02:57
is you may think of this person as really being male,
この人は本来男性だと思うかもしれませんが
02:59
but they're really not.
そうではないのです
03:01
Females, like males,
女性も男性も
03:03
have in our bodies something called the adrenal glands.
副腎という器官が
03:05
They're in the back of our body.
体の後ろ側にあります
03:07
And the adrenal glands make androgens,
副腎はアンドロゲン
03:09
which are a masculinizing hormone.
つまり 男性ホルモンを分泌します
03:11
Most females like me -- I believe myself to be a typical female --
わたしの染色体構造は
03:13
I don't actually know my chromosomal make-up
標準的だと思いますが
03:15
but I think I'm probably typical --
わたしを含むほとんどの女性は
03:17
most females like me are actually androgen-sensitive.
アンドロゲンの影響を受けています
03:19
We're making androgen, and we're responding to androgens.
アンドロゲンを分泌し 反応する結果
03:22
The consequence is that somebody like me
わたしたちのような女性の脳は
03:25
has actually had a brain exposed to more androgens
アンドロゲン不応症で 精巣をもって生まれた女性よりも
03:27
than the woman born with testes
より多くのアンドロゲンに
03:30
who has androgen insensitivity syndrome.
さらされることになります
03:32
So sex is really complicated; it's not just that intersex people
性別とは非常に複雑なので
03:34
are in the middle of all the sex spectrum --
半陰陽の人たちは性別の中間にいると
03:36
in some ways, they can be all over the place.
位置づけることはできません
03:38
Another example:
他の事例です
03:40
a few years ago I got a call from a man who was 19 years old,
数年前 19歳の男性から電話がありました
03:42
who was born a boy, raised a boy,
男児として生まれ 育てられ
03:45
had a girlfriend, had sex with his girlfriend,
彼女がいて その女の子と性交渉もあり
03:47
had a life as a guy
男性として生きてきたのに
03:50
and had just found out that he had ovaries and a uterus inside.
卵巣と子宮があることがわかったのです
03:52
What he had was an extreme form
先天性副腎過形成と呼ばれるもので
03:55
of a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
彼は その極度のケースでした
03:57
He had XX chromosomes,
彼はXX染色体をもち
03:59
and in the womb,
子宮にいる間
04:01
his adrenal glands were in such high gear
彼の副腎はあまりに活発だったので
04:03
that it created, essentially, a masculine hormonal environment.
男性ホルモン環境をつくりあげてしまいました
04:05
And as a consequence, his genitals were masculinzed,
その結果 男性器が形成され
04:09
his brain was subject
脳は より典型的な
04:11
to the more typical masculine component of hormones.
男性ホルモン要素に反応していたのです
04:13
And he was born looking like a boy -- nobody suspected anything.
出生時はまるで男児で 誰も疑いはしませんでした
04:15
And it was only when he had reached the age of 19
それが19歳になったとき
04:18
that he began to have enough medical problems
医学的問題を抱え始めたのです
04:21
actually from menstruating internally,
体内で月経がはじまり
04:23
that doctors figured out that, in fact, he was female internally.
内面的には女性だと医師がつきとめました
04:25
Okay, so just one more quick example
では 手短に
04:28
of a way you can have intersex.
半陰陽の別の例を出します
04:30
Some people who have XX chromosomes
XX染色体をもつ人に
04:32
develop what are called ovotestis,
卵精巣が発達する人がいます
04:34
which is when you have ovarian tissue
卵巣組織が精巣組織で
04:36
with testicular tissue wrapped around it.
覆われているのです
04:38
And we're not exactly sure why that happens.
理由は完全にはわからないものの
04:40
So sex can come in lots of different varieties.
性別とは 多様なものになり得るのです
04:42
The reason
このような体をもつ子どもたちが
04:45
that children with these kinds of bodies --
小人症であっても
04:47
whether it's dwarfism, or it's conjoined twinning,
結合双生児であっても
04:49
or it's an intersex type --
半陰陽者であっても
04:52
are often normalized by surgeons
しばしば 外科的な
04:54
is not because it actually leaves them better off
整形手術を行う理由は
04:56
in terms of physical health.
健康が向上するからでは ありません
04:58
In many cases, people are actually perfectly healthy.
彼らは 極めて健康であることが多いのです
05:00
The reason they're often subject to various kinds of surgeries
様々な手術をすることが多い理由は
05:03
is because they threaten our social categories.
社会的分類があることや
05:06
Or system has been based typically on the idea
体の特徴で アイデンティティが決まるという
05:09
that a particular kind of anatomy comes with a particular identity.
概念に基づいているためです
05:12
So we have the concept that what it means to be a woman
女性であるには
05:15
is to have a female identity;
女性の特性がなくてはならない
05:17
what it means to be a black person is, allegedly,
黒人であるには
05:19
is to have an African anatomy
家系がアフリカ人の体でなければならない
05:21
in terms of your history.
我々は そんな概念をもっています
05:24
And so we have this terribly simplistic idea.
その概念があまりにも単純すぎるため
05:26
And when we're faced with a body
きわめて差異のある体を見ると
05:29
that actually presents us something quite different,
そのような分類ができなくなり
05:31
it startles us in terms of those categorizations.
戸惑ってしまうのです
05:34
So we have a lot of very romantic ideas in our culture
アメリカは個人主義という
05:37
about individualism.
理想主義的な
05:39
And our nation's really founded on a very romantic concept of individualism.
概念のもとに築かれています
05:41
Well you can imagine how startling then it is
体ひとつで 二人の子どもが生まれた場合
05:44
when you have children that are born
どれだけ戸惑うのか
05:47
who are two people inside of one body.
想像できるでしょう
05:49
Where I ran into the most heat from this most recently
最近の論争では去年 南アフリカのランナー
05:51
was last year the South African runner, Caster Semenya,
キャスター・セメンヤが世界陸上で
05:55
had her sex called into question at the International Games in Berlin.
性別を疑われました
05:58
I had a lot of journalists calling me, asking me,
わたしはジャーナリストから電話で質問されました
06:01
"Which is the test they're going to run
“キャスター・セメンヤの性別を
06:04
that will tell us whether or not
判別する検査は
06:06
Caster Semenya is male or female?"
どの検査ですか?”
06:08
And I had to explain to the journalists there isn't such a test.
そんな検査はないと答えました
06:10
In fact, we now know
性別とは複雑であると
06:13
that sex is complicated enough
わかっている今
06:15
that we have to admit
自然界は男女の区別や
06:17
nature doesn't draw the line for us between male and female,
男 半陰陽 女の区別をしないことを
06:19
or between male and intersex and female and intersex;
我々は認めなくてはいけません
06:22
we actually draw that line on nature.
線を引いているのは私たちです
06:25
So what we have is a sort of situation
私たちには
06:28
where the farther our science goes,
科学が進歩すればするほど
06:30
the more we have to admit to ourselves
認めなくてはいけないものがあります
06:32
that these categories
アイデンティティの分類として
06:34
that we thought of as stable anatomical categories
位置づけられたものは
06:36
that mapped very simply
体の構造を分類する揺るぎないものだと
06:38
to stable identity categories
思われていたのに
06:40
are a lot more fuzzy than we thought.
予想以上に曖昧だったのです
06:42
And it's not just in terms of sex.
性別だけではなく
06:44
It's also in terms of race,
人種に関しても
06:46
which turns out to be vastly more complicated
用語が意図する以上に
06:48
than our terminology has allowed.
ずっと複雑です
06:50
As we look, we get into all sorts of uncomfortable areas.
やっかいな問題は多々あります
06:52
We look, for example, about the fact
例えば 人間とチンパンジーは
06:55
that we share at least 95 percent of our DNA
DNAの少なくとも95%が
06:57
with chimpanzees.
同じです
06:59
What are we to make of the fact
少ししか変わりがないという事実から
07:01
that we differ from them only really by a few nucleotides?
何を考えればいいのでしょうか
07:03
And as we get farther and farther with our science,
科学が より発達すればするほど
07:06
we get more and more into a discomforted zone
より困惑する域へと近づき
07:09
where we have to acknowledge
単純な分類が
07:11
that the simplistic categories we've had
あまりにも単純であることを
07:13
are probably overly simplistic.
認めなくてはいけなくなります
07:15
So we're seeing this
これは
07:17
in all sorts of places in human life.
あらゆる場面で見られます
07:19
One of the places we're seeing it, for example,
例えば 我が国アメリカでは
07:21
in our culture today, in the United States today,
命の始まりと終わりに関する
07:23
is battles over the beginning of life and the end of life.
論争がおきています
07:25
We have difficult conversations
胎児とは別の権利があるという点から
07:28
about at what point we decide a body becomes a human,
どの時点で人が人間になるのかを決めるのか
07:30
such that it has a different right than a fetal life.
難しい対話がなされています
07:33
We have very difficult conversations nowadays --
また 人はいつ死亡するのかという問題も
07:36
probably not out in the open as much as within medicine --
医学界ほど広がりは見せていませんが
07:38
about the question of when somebody's dead.
難しい問題です
07:41
In the past, our ancestors never had to struggle so much
人がいつ死亡したのかという問題は
07:43
with this question of when somebody was dead.
昔はこれほどまで難しくはありませんでした
07:45
At most, they'd stick a feather on somebody's nose,
鼻の下を羽根で触ったとき
07:47
and if it twitched, they didn't bury them yet.
ぴくっと動けば 埋葬せず
07:49
If it stopped twitching, you bury them.
動きが止まれば 埋葬したものですが
07:51
But today, we have a situation
今は 生命をつかさどる器官を
07:54
where we want to take vital organs out of beings
取り出して 他者へと
07:56
and give them to other beings.
移植するようになりました
07:58
And as a consequence,
その結果
08:00
we're stuck with having to struggle with this really difficult question
人の死にまつわる論争が
08:02
about who's dead,
繰り広げられるのです
08:04
and this leads us to a really difficult situation
これは 昔のような単純な分類では通用しない
08:06
where we don't have such simple categories as we've had before.
非常に難しい状況をつくりあげます
08:08
Now you might think that all this breaking-down of categories
細かく分類することで わたしのような人間が
08:11
would make somebody like me really happy.
喜ぶと思うかもしれません
08:14
I'm a political progressive, I defend people with unusual bodies,
わたしたちは特異な体を持つ人々のために活動をしていますが
08:16
but I have to admit to you that it makes me nervous.
このようなことは心配の種です
08:19
Understanding that these categories
このような分類が想像以上に
08:21
are really much more unstable than we thought makes me tense.
不安定であることが
08:23
And it makes me tense
民主主義の立場から見て
08:26
from the point of view of thinking about democracy.
気がかりです
08:28
So in order to tell you about that tension,
気がかりになることを説明しましょう
08:30
I have to first admit to you that I'm a huge fan of the Founding Fathers.
わたしは アメリカ合衆国建国の父たちの大ファンです
08:32
I know they were racists, I know they were sexist,
彼らは人種差別や性差別をしました
08:35
but they were great.
けれども 立派な人たちだったのです
08:37
I mean, they were so brave and so bold
彼らは とても勇敢で
08:39
and so radical in what they did
行動も革新的でした
08:42
that I find myself watching that cheesy musical "1776" every few years,
わたしは彼らが題材のミュージカル「1776年」をよく見ています
08:45
and it's not because of the music, which is totally forgettable.
音楽が好きなのではありません
08:48
It's because of what happened in 1776
建国の父たちがもたらした
08:51
with the Founding Fathers.
1776年の出来事があるからです
08:53
The Founding Fathers were, for my point of view,
建国の父たちは 体に対する
08:55
the original anatomical activists,
最初の活動家だと思います
08:57
and this is why.
その理由に
08:59
What they rejected was an anatomical concept
彼らは体の構造の概念を捨て
09:01
and replaced it with another one
その後200年にわたって続いた
09:04
that was radical and beautiful and held us for 200 years.
革新的なものに代えました
09:06
So as you all recall,
ご存知のとおり
09:09
what our Founding Fathers were rejecting was a concept of monarchy,
建国の父たちは君主制を受け付けませんでした
09:11
and the monarchy was basically based
君主制は非常に単純な
09:14
on a very simplistic concept of anatomy.
体の概念に基づいていました
09:16
The monarchs of the old world
旧世界の君主たちに
09:18
didn't have a concept of DNA,
DNAの概念はありませんでしたが
09:20
but they did have a concept of birthright.
生得権の概念はもっていました
09:22
They had a concept of blue blood.
貴族の血統です
09:24
They had the idea that the people who would be in political power
彼らの考え方は
09:26
should be in political power
先祖から子孫へと
09:29
because of the blood being passed down
血統によって 政治の権力を
09:31
from grandfather to father to son and so forth.
受け継ぐべき というものでした
09:33
The Founding Fathers rejected that idea,
建国の父たちは その概念を拒否し
09:36
and they replaced it with a new anatomical concept,
体の概念と取り代えたのです
09:38
and that concept
それは 人間は皆
09:41
was all men are created equal.
平等だというものでした
09:43
They leveled that playing field
彼らが定めたものは
09:45
and decided the anatomy that mattered
重要なのは
09:47
was the commonality of anatomy,
体の共通性であって
09:49
not the difference in anatomy,
違いではないというものでした
09:51
and that was a really radical thing to do.
それは非常に革新的でした
09:53
Now they were doing it in part
当時は啓蒙時代だったことも
09:56
because they were part of an Enlightenment system
影響していました
09:58
where two things were growing up together.
啓蒙時代には民主主義と
10:00
And that was democracy growing up,
科学の二つが
10:02
but it was also science growing up at the same time.
同時に発展していました
10:04
And it's really clear, if you look at the history of the Founding Fathers,
建国の父たちを見ると明らかですが
10:07
a lot of them were very interested in science,
多くは科学に関心をもっており
10:09
and they were interested in a concept
自然主義的な世界の概念に
10:11
of a naturalistic world.
関心を寄せていました
10:13
They were moving away from supernatural explanations,
彼らは超自然的解釈から遠のき
10:15
and they were rejecting things like a supernatural concept of power,
権力という超自然的な概念を拒絶しました
10:18
where it transmitted
生得権という
10:21
because of a very vague concept of birthright.
曖昧な概念のために伝わっていた権力です
10:23
They were moving towards a naturalistic concept.
彼らは自然主義の概念に移行していきました
10:26
And if you look, for example, in the Declaration of Independence,
アメリカ独立宣言では 自然法と
10:28
they talk about nature and nature's God.
自然の神の法に触れています
10:31
They don't talk about God and God's nature.
神や神の自然ではありません
10:34
They're talking about the power of nature
我々が誰なのか
10:36
to tell us who we are.
自然の力を使って説明しています
10:38
So as part of that,
その中で
10:40
they were coming to us with a concept
彼らは体の共通性に関する
10:42
that was about anatomical commonality.
概念をもたらしました
10:44
And in doing so, they were really setting up in a beautiful way
そうすることで見事に 後の公民権活動を
10:46
the Civil Rights movement of the future.
確立していました
10:49
They didn't think of it that way, but they did it for us, and it was great.
その意図はなくても 結果的にそうなったのです
10:51
So what happened years afterward?
その後 どうなったかと言うと
10:54
What happened was women, for example,
選挙権を得ようとしていた
10:56
who wanted the right to vote,
女性たちは
10:58
took the Founding Fathers' concept
建国の父たちが掲げた
11:00
of anatomical commonality being more important
体の共通性は違いよりも重要だという
11:02
than anatomical difference
概念を用いて 言いました
11:04
and said, "The fact that we have a uterus and ovaries
“子宮や卵巣があるという差は
11:06
is not significant enough in terms of a difference
選挙権や公民権や不動産の獲得を
11:08
to mean that we shouldn't have the right to vote,
妨げるには
11:11
the right to full citizenship,
十分な理由にはならない”
11:13
the right to own property, etc., etc."
女性たちの抗議は
11:15
And women successfully argued that.
見事な成果を出しました
11:17
Next came the successful Civil Rights movement,
次に公民権活動に成果が出ました
11:19
where we found people like Sojourner Truth
“わたしは女ではないのか?” と語った
11:22
talking about, "Ain't I a woman?"
ソジャーナ・トゥルースなどが代表的です
11:24
We find men
公民権活動のデモ行進では
11:26
on the marching lines of the Civil Rights movement
“わたしは男だ”と言った
11:28
saying, "I am a man."
男性がいたり
11:30
Again, people of color
体の違いではなく共通性を
11:32
appealing to a commonality of anatomy over a difference of anatomy,
訴えて 成果を出した
11:34
again, successfully.
有色人種の人たちがいました
11:36
We see the same thing with the disability rights movement.
同じことが障害者権利の活動にも見られます
11:38
The problem is, of course,
もちろん 問題があります
11:42
that, as we begin to look at all that commonality,
共通性に目を向け始めながら
11:44
we have to begin to question
なぜ ある一定の区分を保つのか
11:46
why we maintain certain divisions.
問い始めなくてはいけません
11:48
Now mind you, I want to maintain some divisions,
解剖学的に区別が必要なものも
11:50
anatomically, in our culture.
中にはあります
11:52
For example, I don't want
例えば 魚には
11:54
to give a fish the same rights as a human.
人間と同様の権利は与えたくありません
11:56
I don't want to say we give up entirely on anatomy.
解剖学的見地を捨て去れと言っているのではありません
11:58
I don't want to say five-year-olds
5歳の子どもが性交渉や
12:00
should be allowed to consent to sex or consent to marry.
結婚を許可されるべきではないと思います
12:02
So there are some anatomical divisions
解剖学的な区別も
12:05
that make sense to me and that I think we should retain.
納得できるものは維持すべきでしょう
12:07
But the challenge is trying to figure out which ones they are
でも それを選別し その理由と意味を
12:10
and why do we retain them and do they have meaning.
割り出すことが難しいのです
12:13
So let's go back to those two beings
先ほどの 同時期に宿った
12:16
conceived at the beginning of this talk.
二人の話に戻りましょう
12:18
We have two beings, both conceived
1979年中頃の
12:20
in the middle of 1979 on the exact same day.
同じ日に宿った二人がいます
12:22
Let's imagine one of them, Mary,
その一人のメアリーは
12:25
is born three months prematurely,
予定日より3か月早く
12:27
so she's born on June 1, 1980.
1980年1月1日に生まれました
12:29
Henry, by contrast, is born at term,
もう一人のヘンリーは
12:31
so he's born on March 1, 1980.
1980年4月1日に生まれました
12:33
Simply by virtue of the fact
予定日よりも
12:36
that Mary was born prematurely three months,
3か月早く生まれたため
12:38
she comes into all sorts of rights
メアリーは あらゆる権利を
12:40
three months earlier than Henry does --
ヘンリーよりも3か月早く手に入れます
12:42
the right to consent to sex,
性交渉や選挙や
12:45
the right to vote, the right to drink.
飲酒できる権利です
12:47
Henry has to wait for all of that,
ヘンリーは生物学的に
12:49
not because he's actually any different in age, biologically,
年齢は変わりありませんが 生まれた時期のために
12:51
except in terms of when he was born.
待たなくてはいけません
12:54
We find other kinds of weirdness in terms of what their rights are.
他にも権利に関するおかしなことがあります
12:56
Henry, by virtue of being assumed to be male --
男であると推測されたヘンリーは
12:59
although I haven't told you that he's the XY one --
XY染色体をもっていますが
13:02
by virtue of being assumed to be male
男であると推測されるために
13:04
is now liable to be drafted,
兵役に服することになります
13:07
which Mary does not need to worry about.
メアリーはその心配は要りません
13:09
Mary, meanwhile, cannot in all the states
一方で メアリーは
13:11
have the same right that Henry has in all the states,
ヘンリーが すべての州で得られる
13:13
namely, the right to marry.
結婚する権利が得られません
13:15
Henry can marry in every state a woman,
ヘンリーは どの州でも女性と結婚できますが
13:17
but Mary can only marry today in a few states a woman.
メアリーは幾つかの州でしか 女性と結婚できません
13:20
So we have these anatomical categories that persist
このように 体の構造による分類が
13:24
that are in many ways problematic and questionable.
さまざまな面で 問題を引き起こしています
13:27
And the question to me becomes:
問題は
13:30
What do we do,
体を観察する上で
13:32
as our science gets to be so good
科学が発展する中
13:34
in looking at anatomy,
体に基づいた民主主義が
13:36
that we reach the point where we have to admit
崩れ始めるかもしれないと
13:38
that a democracy that's been based on anatomy
認めざるを得ないとき
13:41
might start falling apart?
どうするのか という点です
13:44
I don't want to give up the science,
科学を手放しはしたくありませんが
13:46
but at the same time it kind of feels sometimes
科学の支えを失うような気が
13:48
like the science is coming out from under us.
時々するのです
13:50
So where do we go?
さて どうなるでしょうか
13:52
It seems like what happens in our culture
我々の文化では
13:54
is a sort of pragmatic attitude:
実用的な姿勢が見られます
13:56
"Well, we have to draw the line somewhere,
“どこかで線引きをしなくてはいけないから
13:58
so we will draw the line somewhere."
線引きをしているのだ” と
14:00
But a lot of people get stuck in a very strange position.
でも おかしな状況に陥る人も多いのです
14:02
So for example,
テキサスではあるとき
14:04
Texas has at one point decided
男と結婚する人は
14:06
that what it means to marry a man
Y染色体がないことを意味し
14:08
is to mean that you don't have a Y chromosome,
女と結婚する人は
14:10
and what it means to marry a woman means you do have a Y chromosome.
Y染色体があることを意味すると決定づけました
14:12
Now in practice they don't actually test people for their chromosomes.
実際に染色体を調べることはしませんが
14:14
But this is also very bizarre,
これも非常に変な話です
14:17
because of the story I told you at the beginning
なぜなら最初に紹介した話は
14:19
about androgen insensitivity syndrome.
アンドロゲン不応症についてだからです
14:21
If we look at one of the founding fathers of modern democracy,
近代民主主義の父の一人である
14:23
Dr. Martin Luther King,
マーティン・ルーサー・キングが
14:26
he offers us something of a solution in his "I have a dream" speech.
スピーチの中で解決法を示しています
14:28
He says we should judge people "based not on the color of their skin,
肌の色で人を判断せずに
14:31
but on the content of their character,"
体という枠を超えて
14:34
moving beyond anatomy.
人格で判断するべきだ と
14:36
And I want to say, "Yeah, that sounds like a really good idea."
良い考えだと言いたいですが
14:38
But in practice, how do you do it?
実際には どうやるのでしょうか
14:41
How do you judge people based on the content of character?
どのように 人格を基に判断できるのでしょうか
14:43
I also want to point out
また それが人間の権利を
14:46
that I'm not sure that is how we should distribute rights in terms of humans,
与えるべき方法なのでしょうか
14:48
because, I have to admit, that there are some golden retrievers I know
なぜなら ある人間よりも社会福祉を受けるに値する犬を
14:51
that are probably more deserving of social services
わたしは何匹か知っていると
14:54
than some humans I know.
認めざるを得ないからです
14:56
I also want to say there are probably also some yellow Labradors that I know
また わたしが知っている ある40歳の人よりも
14:58
that are more capable of informed, intelligent, mature decisions
性交渉に関して知識があり 賢くて
15:01
about sexual relations than some 40-year-olds that I know.
慎重な判断ができる犬がいるだろうと言いたいです
15:04
So how do we operationalize
さあ どうやって人格の問題を
15:07
the question of content of character?
操作できるでしょうか
15:10
It turns out to be really difficult.
これは非常に難しいのですが
15:12
And part of me also wonders,
わたしは こう思う事があります
15:14
what if content of character
もしも未来に
15:16
turns out to be something that's scannable in the future --
人格がfMRI計測できると
15:18
able to be seen with an fMRI?
わかったら どうでしょう?
15:21
Do we really want to go there?
そんなことを望むでしょうか?
15:23
I'm not sure where we go.
わたしにはわかりませんが
15:25
What I do know is that it seems to be really important
重要だと感じるのは
15:27
to think about the idea of the United States being in the lead
民主主義の問題を考えるとき アメリカが
15:29
of thinking about this issue of democracy.
先導するという考えです
15:32
We've done a really good job struggling with democracy,
アメリカは民主主義の取り組みに成果をあげ
15:34
and I think we would do a good job in the future.
今後も貢献できると思います
15:37
We don't have a situation that Iran has, for example,
私たちにイランが抱える状況はありません
15:39
where a man who's sexually attracted to other men
そこでは同性愛者の男性は
15:42
is liable to be murdered,
殺害される危険性がありますが
15:44
unless he's willing to submit to a sex change,
性転換をするならば
15:46
in which case he's allowed to live.
命は助かります
15:48
We don't have that kind of situation.
アメリカでは そのようなことはありません
15:50
I'm glad to say we don't have the kind of situation with --
数年前に話をした外科医がいた状況が
15:52
a surgeon I talked to a few years ago
アメリカにはなくて嬉しく思います
15:55
who had brought over a set of conjoined twins
切断手術をするために結合双生児を連れて来た外科医は
15:57
in order to separate them, partly to make a name for himself.
自分を売り込むことが目的でもありました
16:00
But when I was on the phone with him,
その医師と電話で話したときに
16:02
asking why he was going to do this surgery --
リスクの高い手術だったので
16:04
this was a very high-risk surgery --
なぜ 手術をするのか尋ねました
16:06
his answer was that, in this other nation,
その国では その子どもが辛い目にあうので
16:08
these children were going to be treated very badly, and so he had to do this.
手術をしなくてはいけない ということだったため
16:10
My response to him was, "Well, have you considered political asylum
切断手術の代わりに 政治亡命を
16:13
instead of a separation surgery?"
検討したことはあるかと尋ねました
16:16
The United States has offered tremendous possibility
人々がありのままでいられるように
16:19
for allowing people to be the way they are,
アメリカは多大な可能性を
16:21
without having them have to be changed for the sake of the state.
提供してきました
16:24
So I think we have to be in the lead.
我々が先頭に立たなくてはいけません
16:27
Well, just to close, I want to suggest to you
最後に 提案をしたいと思います
16:29
that I've been talking a lot about the fathers.
建国の父たちの話題ばかりでしたが
16:32
And I want to think about the possibilities
母たちがもっと関与していた場合
16:34
of what democracy might look like, or might have looked like,
民主主義はどのようなものだったのか
16:37
if we had more involved the mothers.
可能性を考えたいのです
16:39
And I want to say something a little bit radical for a feminist,
フェミニストの立場から 少し急進的なことを言うと
16:42
and that is that I think that there may be
異なる体から生まれる
16:45
different kinds of insights
異なる洞察が
16:47
that can come from different kinds of anatomies,
あるかもしれません
16:49
particularly when we have people thinking in groups.
特にグループで考える場合です
16:51
Now for years, because I've been interested in intersex,
半陰陽に興味をもって何年も経ちますが
16:54
I've also been interested in sex difference research.
性別の違いの研究にも興味があります
16:56
And one of the things that I've been really interested in
興味あるものの一つに
16:58
is looking at the differences between males and females
考え方や影響の及ぼし方における
17:00
in terms of the way they think and operate in the world.
男女の違いがあります
17:03
And what we know from cross-cultural studies
異文化研究からわかっているのは
17:06
is that females, on average --
女性は皆ではありませんが
17:09
not everyone, but on average --
平均的に
17:11
are more inclined to be very attentive
複雑な社会関係に
17:13
to complex social relations
注意を払い
17:15
and to taking care of people
その中でも弱い立場の人たちの
17:17
who are basically vulnerable within the group.
面倒をみる傾向があります
17:19
And so if we think about that,
その点を考慮すると
17:22
we have an interesting situation on our hands.
手中に興味深い状況があるのです
17:24
Years ago, when I was in graduate school,
何年も前 大学院にいた頃
17:26
one of my graduate advisers who knew I was interested in feminism --
フェミニズムに関心をよせる私に
17:28
I considered myself a feminist, as I still do --
ある先生が 変な質問をしてきました
17:30
asked a really strange question.
“フェミニズムのどこが
17:33
He said, "Tell me what's feminine about feminism."
女性的なのか 教えてくれないか”
17:35
And I thought, "Well that's the dumbest question I've ever heard.
馬鹿げた質問だと思いました
17:38
Feminism is all about undoing stereotypes about gender,
フェミニズムとは性別に関する固定観念を打ち消していくことであり
17:40
so there's nothing feminine about feminism."
女性的なものなど 一切ありません
17:43
But the more I thought about his question,
でも より考えていくうちに
17:46
the more I thought there might be something feminine about feminism.
女性的なものがあるかもしれないと 思いました
17:48
That is to say, there might be something, on average,
平均して女性の脳が男性の脳と違う点が
17:51
different about female brains from male brains
あるかもしれません
17:54
that makes us more attentive
複雑な社会関係や
17:57
to deeply complex social relationships
弱い立場にいる人たちに
17:59
and more attentive to taking care of the vulnerable.
より多くの気を使う何かです
18:02
So whereas the fathers were extremely attentive
建国の父たちが国から人々を守る方法を
18:05
to figuring out how to protect individuals from the state,
模索するのに気を使ったことを見ると
18:08
it's possible that if we injected more mothers
この概念に
18:11
into this concept,
より多くの女性を送り込めば
18:13
what we would have is more of a concept
人々を守る方法だけではなく
18:15
of, not just how to protect,
お互いに世話をすることが
18:17
but how to care for each other.
可能になるでしょう
18:19
And maybe that's where we need to go in the future,
それが将来に必要なものかもしれません
18:21
when we take democracy beyond anatomy,
体を超えた民主主義を考えるというのは
18:24
is to think less about the individual body,
アイデンティティの点では
18:26
in terms of the identity,
個人の体は それほど重視せずに
18:28
and think more about those relationships.
関係性を重視するということです
18:30
So that as we the people try to create a more perfect union,
より完璧な国をつくろうとしながら
18:32
we're thinking about what we do for each other.
お互いのためを考えるのです
18:35
Thank you.
ありがとう
18:38
(Applause)
(拍手)
18:40
Translated by Takako Sato
Reviewed by HIROKO ITO

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About the Speaker:

Alice Dreger - Historian
Alice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate.

Why you should listen

Alice Dreger is a professor of clinical medical humanities and bioethics at the Feinberg School of Medicine of Northwestern University in Chicago. She describes her focus as "social justice work in medicine and science" through research, writing, speaking and advocacy.

She's written several books that study subjects on the edge of norm-challenging bodies, including One of Us: Conjoined Twins and the Future of Normal and Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex and Intersex in the Age of Ethics.

She says: "The question that has motivated many of my projects is this: Why not change minds instead of bodies?"

JOIN OUR LIVE Q&A with Alice Dreger on June 28, 1pm Eastern, in TED Conversations.

More profile about the speaker
Alice Dreger | Speaker | TED.com