16:38
TEDGlobal 2005

Iqbal Quadir: How mobile phones can fight poverty

イクバル・カディーア 貧困と戦う携帯を語る

Filmed:

イクバル・カディーアが、草の根開発の英雄になるまでを語ります。子供の時の貧しいバングラデシュでの出来事やニューヨークでの銀行員当時のある経験から、地方に暮らす8千万のバングラデシュ人を携帯電話でつなぐ事業を成功させる物語です。

- Founder, GrameenPhone
Iqbal Quadir is an advocate of business as a humanitarian tool. With GrameenPhone, he brought the first commercial telecom services to poor areas of Bangladesh. His latest project will help rural entrepreneurs build power plants. Full bio

バングラデシュをしばしご覧下さい
00:25
I'll just take you to Bangladesh for a minute.
本題に入る前に 一緒に考えてください
01:07
Before I tell that story, we should ask ourselves the question:
なぜ貧困があるのか?
01:10
Why does poverty exist?
我々は多くの知識を持ち 科学は発展し
01:12
I mean, there is plenty of knowledge and scientific breakthroughs.
ひとつの同じ星に暮らしているのに
01:17
We all live in the same planet,
今も世界中に貧困がはびこっています
01:20
but there's still a great deal of poverty in the world.
まず 私の視点を聞いて下さい
01:22
And I think -- so I want to throw a perspective that I have,
今から話す事業や その他の事業が
01:26
so that we can assess this project, or any other project, for that matter,
貧困撲滅や緩和に貢献しているのか
01:33
to see whether it's contributing or --
見極めてみましょう
01:36
contributing to poverty or trying to alleviate it.
過去60年間 豊かな国は貧しい国を援助してきました
01:38
Rich countries have been sending aid to poor countries for the last 60 years.
でも全体的に見て失敗でした
01:43
And by and large, this has failed.
この本を見て下さい
01:46
And you can see this book,
世界銀行に20年勤めた人が書いたもので
01:48
written by someone who worked in the World Bank for 20 years,
“この国の経済成長の理由は不明だが
01:51
and he finds economic growth in this country to be elusive.
援助の結果ではない”と示しています
01:56
By and large, it did not work.
それはなぜでしょうか
01:59
So the question is, why is that?
欧州の歴史が参考になると私は考えています
02:03
In my mind, there is something to learn from the history of Europe.
昨日通りを歩いていて見つけたのですが
02:08
I mean, even here, yesterday I was walking across the street,
5百年前に処刑された3人の主教を
02:12
and they showed three bishops were executed 500 years ago,
通りの向かいで展示しています
02:16
right across the street from here.
つまり 欧州で多くの闘争が繰り広げられ
02:18
So my point is, there's a lot of struggle has gone in Europe,
市民は技術に支えられ力をつけました
02:22
where citizens were empowered by technologies.
市民は権力者が馬の背から降り
02:25
And they demanded authorities from --
市民と同じ土俵に立つことを求めました
02:28
to come down from their high horses.
最後にはよりよい妥協が
02:31
And in the end, there's better bargaining
権力者と市民との間で成立し
02:34
between the authorities and citizens,
民主主義や資本主義などが花開きました
02:37
and democracies, capitalism -- everything else flourished.
真の発展に必要なことは
02:40
And so you can see, the real process of --
この本にも書かれているように
02:43
and this is backed up by this 500-page book --
権力者に代わり市民が力を得ることです
02:47
that the authorities came down and citizens got up.
この視点から考えると この60年間
02:52
But if you look, if you have that perspective,
援助が逆方向に注がれていたと分かります
02:55
then you can see what happened in the last 60 years.
つまり援助によって権力者が力をつけ
02:58
Aid actually did the opposite.
結果的に市民をのけ者にした
03:01
It empowered authorities,
権力者は経済成長などいりませんでした
03:03
and, as a result, marginalized citizens.
人々に税金を課し
03:06
The authorities did not have the reason to make economic growth happen
国の事業資金を稼ぐ必要がなかったのです
03:09
so that they could tax people
海外から資金が得られたからです
03:12
and make more money for to run their business.
事実 石油収入が豊富で
03:16
Because they were getting it from abroad.
市民の力が弱い国でも同じ事が起こっています
03:19
And in fact, if you see oil-rich countries,
ナイジェリアやサウジアラビアのような国です
03:23
where citizens are not yet empowered, the same thing goes --
援助は石油や鉱物の収入と同じです
03:26
Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, all sorts of countries.
権力者に力を与え 市民は活性化されない
03:29
Because the aid and oil or mineral money acts the same way.
市民の労働力や才能が活かされない
03:34
It empowers authorities, without activating the citizens --
そうであるなら 国の発展に最も必要なことは
03:38
their hands, legs, brains, what have you.
経済発展とは 人々の 人々による
03:42
And if you agree with that, then I think the best way to improve these countries
人々のためのもの と認識することです
03:48
is to recognize that economic development is of the people,
人々のつながりが発展をもたらします
03:51
by the people, for the people.
市民がつながり 組織化され より生産的になることで
03:54
And that is the real network effect.
市民の声が社会に反映され
03:56
If citizens can network and make themselves more organized and productive,
世の中はよくなるのです
04:00
so that their voices are heard,
反して 世界で最も影響力のある機関-
04:02
so then things would improve.
世界銀行は 政府の 政府による
04:04
And to contrast that, you can see the most important institution in the world,
政府のための組織です
04:09
the World Bank, is an organization of the government,
まさに正反対です
04:13
by the government, for the governments.
以上が私の視点です それでは私の物語を始めましょう
04:16
Just see the contrast.
どうすれば市民が力を持てるのでしょう?
04:18
And that is the perspective I have, and then I can start my story.
携帯のような技術が使えます
04:23
Of course, how would you empower citizens?
英エコノミスト誌も最近認めていますが
04:26
There could be all sorts of technologies. And one is cell phones.
私は12年前にこのアイデアを思いつきました
04:28
Recently "The Economist" recognized this,
以後この事業に取り組んでいます
04:31
but I stumbled upon the idea 12 years ago,
ニューヨークで投資銀行家を目指していた12年前
04:36
and that's what I've been working on.
多くの同業者とコンピュータネットワークでつながっていました
04:42
So 12 years ago, I was trying to be an investment banker in New York.
フロッピーディスクを交換する必要もなく より効率的に
04:45
We had -- quite a few our colleagues were connected by a computer network.
最新の情報を交換することが出来ました
04:53
And we got more productive because we didn't have to exchange floppy disks;
ある時 ネットワークが故障しました
05:00
we could update each other more often.
その時 1971年の出来事を思い出しました
05:04
But one time it broke down.
当時私の国は戦争のさなかにあり
05:06
And it reminded me of a day in 1971.
私たち家族はそれまで暮らしていた都会を離れ
05:10
There was a war going on in my country.
より安全な地方の田舎に引越していました
05:14
And my family moved out of an urban place, where we used to live,
ある時 弟の薬を取りに行くよう母に頼まれました
05:17
to a remote rural area where it was safer.
午前一杯16キロ歩き 薬屋に辿り着きましたが
05:21
And one time my mother asked me to get some medicine for a younger sibling.
不在で 仕方なく半日歩いて戻りました
05:24
And I walked 10 miles or so, all morning, to get there, to the medicine man.
全く無駄な一日でした
05:31
And he wasn't there, so I walked all afternoon back.
ニューヨークの高層ビルの中にいた私は
05:34
So I had another unproductive day.
この2つの出来事を比較して
05:36
So while I was sitting in a tall building in New York,
つながりこそが生産力を高めると気づいたのです
05:39
I put those two experiences together side by side,
近代的なオフィスも昔ながらの農村も同じなのです
05:42
and basically concluded that connectivity is productivity --
どういうことかと言うと
05:45
whether it's in a modern office or an underdeveloped village.
電話は貧困に対する武器になるということです
05:50
So naturally, I -- the implication of that is
さて そうだとすると
05:53
that the telephone is a weapon against poverty.
当時 何台の電話があったでしょうか?
05:58
And if that's the case, then the question is
調べてみると 当時のバングラデシュには
06:00
how many telephones did we have at that time?
5百人に1台だけでした
06:04
And it turns out, that there was one telephone in Bangladesh
それも都会のみでした
06:09
for every 500 people.
1億人の人々が住む広大な地方には
06:11
And all those phones were in the few urban places.
電話がなかったのです
06:15
The vast rural areas, where 100 million people lived,
かなりの人月 人年の無駄ですね
06:18
there were no telephones.
私が無駄にしたあの日のように
06:21
So just imagine how many man-months or man-years are wasted,
月1日の無駄でも 1億人を掛け算すると
06:24
just like I wasted a day.
どれだけの資源が無駄になるか分かりますね
06:27
If you just multiply by 100 million people, let's say losing one day a month,
つまり 貧富に関係なく平等にあるもの
06:31
whatever, and you see a vast amount of resource wasted.
それは一日の長さであり 24時間です
06:35
And after all, poor countries, like rich countries, one thing we've got equal,
この時間という貴重な資源を失うと
06:38
is their days are the same length: 24 hours.
豊かな国となんら変わりなく
06:41
So if you lose that precious resource,
莫大な損失です
06:44
where you are somewhat equal to the richer countries,
そこで 私は何か証拠がないか探し始めました
06:47
that's a huge waste.
つながりが本当に生産性を向上させるのか?
06:50
So I started looking for any evidence that --
証拠に限りはありましたが このグラフを見つけました
06:54
does connectivity really increase productivity?
ITU ジュネーブにある国際電気電信連合が作成したものです
06:58
And I couldn't find much, really, but I found this graph produced by the ITU,
興味深いことを示しています
07:02
which is the International Telecommunication Union, based in Geneva.
ここを見て下さい 横軸は所得レベルです
07:08
They show an interesting thing.
米国や英国はこのあたり 図の外になります
07:11
That you see, the horizontal axis is where you place your country.
縦軸は電話1台の経済効果です
07:15
So the United States or the UK would be here, outside.
大変小さいですね
07:18
And so the impact of one new telephone,
一方 一人当たりのGNPが
07:22
which is on the vertical axis, is very little.
5百ドルや3百ドルの貧しい国だと
07:27
But if you come back to a poorer country, where the GNP per capita is,
5~6千ドルの大きな経済効果があります
07:30
let's say, 500 dollars, or 300 dollars,
では 一方
07:33
then the impact is huge: 6,000 dollars. Or 5,000 dollars.
バングラデシュで電話設置に幾らかかるか?
07:40
The question was,
調べると2千ドルでした
07:41
how much did it cost to install a new telephone in Bangladesh?
2千ドル払い 10年使えるとします
07:45
It turns out: 2,000 dollars.
1年5千ドルなら10年で5万ドルです
07:49
So if you spend 2,000 dollars, and let's say the telephone lasts 10 years,
これはもう明らかに相当の品物です
07:52
and if 5,000 dollars every year -- so that's 50,000 dollars.
事実 デジタル革命が進んでいますから
07:55
So obviously this was a gadget to have.
仮に電話の設置費用が下がれば
07:59
And of course, if the cost of installing a telephone is going down,
これは益々素晴しい
08:04
because there's a digital revolution going on,
私も経済学をかじっていましたが
08:06
then it would be even more dramatic.
アダム スミス曰く 専門化が生産性を高める
08:10
And I knew a little economics by then --
では どうすれば専門化が進むか?
08:13
it says Adam Smith taught us that specialization leads to productivity.
私が魚も獲る農家だとしましょう
08:16
But how would you specialize?
仕事の相方も同様に色んな仕事をする
08:19
Let's say I'm a fisherman and a farmer.
専門を伸ばし相互依存するには
08:23
And Chris is a fisherman farmer. Both are generalists.
二人がつながっていることが不可欠です
08:29
So the point is that we could only -- the only way we could depend on each other,
二人が近所に住んでれば 彼の家に歩いて行けばいい
08:33
is if we can connect with each other.
でも経済活動は狭い範囲に制限されます
08:36
And if we are neighbors, I could just walk over to his house.
拡大するには 川が必要です
08:41
But then we are limiting our economic sphere to something very small area.
高速道路や電話が必要です
08:45
But in order to expand that, you need a river,
いずれにせよ つながりによって相互依存が可能になり
08:48
or you need a highway, or you need telephone lines.
相互依存が専門化を促し
08:50
But in any event, it's connectivity that leads to dependability.
さらに生産性が向上します
08:55
And that leads to specialization.
私はこの課題に取り組み始め
08:57
That leads to productivity.
バングラデシュとニューヨークを行き来しました
08:59
So the question was, I started looking at this issue,
バングラデシュに十分な電話がないのは
09:03
and going back and forth between Bangladesh and New York.
沢山の理由があると人々は言いました
09:05
There were a lot of reasons people told me
1つは購買力がないこと
09:09
why we don't have enough telephones.
貧しい人は確かに購買力に乏しい
09:12
And one of them is the lacking buying power.
でも電話が生産手段なら心配無用です
09:14
Poor people apparently don't have the power to buy.
つまり アメリカで車を購入する時
09:17
But the point is, if it's a production tool, why do we have to worry about that?
わずかばかりの頭金を払って
09:20
I mean, in America, people buy cars,
車を手に入れ 仕事に行く
09:23
and they put very little money down.
仕事によって給料が入る
09:26
They get a car, and they go to work.
給料で車の費用は時間をかけて払えばいい
09:29
The work pays them a salary;
車があれば元が取れる
09:32
the salary allows them to pay for the car over time.
電話も生産手段であれば
09:35
The car pays for itself.
購買力の心配は無用です
09:36
So if the telephone is a production tool,
頭金を払うのは簡単ではないかもしれない
09:39
then we don't quite have to worry about the purchasing power.
そこで ある種の共有ができないかと考えました
09:42
And of course, even if that's true, then what about initial buying power?
米国では誰もが銀行を必要としますが
09:47
So then the question is, why can't we have some kind of shared access?
銀行を買う人はほとんどいません
09:52
In the United States, we have -- everybody needs a banking service,
つまり銀行は 地域に貢献しているのです
09:56
but very few of us are trying to buy a bank.
同じことを電話でもできるのではないか?
09:59
So it's -- a bank tends to serve a whole community.
衣食住の基本的ニーズが優先だと言う人もいましたが
10:03
So we could do that for telephones.
それは過保護で
10:06
And also people told me that we have a lot of important primary needs to meet:
干渉的な考えです
10:11
food, clothing, shelter, whatever.
まず収入を確保することが大事で
10:14
But again, it's very paternalistic.
何が必要かは 個々がを決めるべきなのです
10:16
You should be raising income
本当の問題はインフラの不足でした
10:19
and let people decide what they want to do with their money.
新しいものの導入には基盤インフラが必要です
10:24
But the real problem is the lack of other infrastructures.
米国ではインターネット利用者が急増しましたが
10:27
See, you need some kind of infrastructure to bring a new thing.
みんなコンピュータを持っていて
10:32
For instance, the Internet was booming in the U.S.
モデムや電話線もあったので
10:35
because there were -- there were people who had computers.
インターネットのようなアイデアが簡単に広まりました
10:38
They had modems.
貧しい国はこうしたものがない
10:40
They had telephone lines, so it's very easy to bring in a new idea, like the Internet.
例えば 信用調査をする方法がなかったし
10:44
But that's what's lacking in a poor country.
集金してくれる銀行もほとんどない
10:47
So for example, we didn't have ways to have credit checks,
で 貧困者向けのグラミン銀行に目を向けました
10:49
few banks to collect bills, etc.
1,100の支店を持ち 1万2千人のスタッフと230万人の借り手がいる
10:54
But that's why I noticed Grameen Bank, which is a bank for poor people,
この支店網を
10:57
and had 1,100 branches, 12,000 employees, 2.3 million borrowers.
携帯基地局にしたネットワーク化を考えました
11:04
And they had these branches.
途中を省きますが 私は乗り出したわけです
11:06
I thought I could put cell towers and create a network.
まず グラミン銀行に出向いて提案しました
11:11
And anyway, to cut the time short -- so I started --
”支店網をつなげれば効率的にできますよ”
11:15
I first went to them and said,
でも 彼らは電話のない国で発展を遂げた組織です
11:18
"You know, perhaps I could connect all your branches and make you more efficient."
組織は分権化されていました
11:21
But you know, they have, after all, evolved in a country without telephones,
その必要性があったのでしょう
11:25
so they are decentralized. I mean, of course there might be other good reasons,
支店間のネットワーク化で混乱するより
11:30
but this was one of the reasons -- they had to be.
今のままでよいと彼らは考えた
11:32
And so they were not that interested to connect all their branches,
そこで銀行のしくみに焦点を絞ってみました
11:36
and then to be -- and rock the boat.
銀行でお金を借ります
11:38
So I started focusing. What is it that they really do?
彼女は牛を買い 牛はミルクを出します
11:42
So what happens is that somebody borrows money from the bank.
ミルクを村人に売り それで銀行に返済します
11:45
She typically buys a cow. The cow gives milk.
これが典型的な商売―食料流通のしくみです
11:49
And she sells the milk to the villagers, and pays off the loan.
携帯が牛になると閃いた
11:53
And this is a business for her, but it's milk for everybody else.
つまり 彼女は2百ドルを銀行から借りる
11:58
And suddenly I realized that a cell phone could be a cow.
電話を購入し その電話をみんなに使ってもらう
12:00
Because some way she could borrow 200 dollars from the bank,
それを商売にするのです
12:04
get a phone and have the phone for everybody.
グラミン銀行に手紙を出し しばらくして返事がきました
12:07
And it's a business for her.
”少し突飛な話ですが 筋は通っていますね
12:10
So I wrote to the bank, and they thought for a while, and they said,
実現可能なら事業化させましょう”
12:14
"It's a little crazy, but logical.
私は仕事を辞め バングラデシュに帰ってきました
12:16
If you think it can be done, come and make it happen."
ベンガリ語でみんなの電話という意味の
12:20
So I quit my job; I went back to Bangladesh.
ゴノフォンという会社を設立し
12:23
I created a company in America called Gonofone,
米国投資家の資金を集めました
12:26
which in Bengali means "people's phone."
私は世界を飛び回りました
12:29
And angel investors in America put in money into that.
あちこちで断られました
12:31
I flew around the world.
貧しい国の最貧層が対象なので
12:33
After about a million -- I mean, I got rejected from lots of places,
無理もありません
12:36
because I was not only trying to go to a poor country,
世界中を飛び回り 髪の毛をたっぷり失い
12:39
I was trying to go to the poor of the poor country.
ついにグラミンフォンを設立しました
12:41
After about a million miles, and a meaningful --
ノルウェーの電話会社が
12:45
a substantial loss of hair, I eventually put together a consortium, and --
ノウハウを提供し
12:48
which involved the Norwegian telephone company,
グラミン銀行が地方展開に必要なインフラを提供しました
12:52
which provided the know-how,
経緯は省きますが これが現在の受信地域です
12:55
and the Grameen Bank provided the infrastructure to spread the service.
ほとんどの地域をカバーしています
13:01
To make the story short, here is the coverage of the country.
バングラデシュにも 過疎地域があります
13:05
You can see it's pretty much covered.
でも 今年は更に約3億ドルの投資を行い
13:08
Even in Bangladesh, there are some empty places.
過疎地域にもサービスを広げるつもりです
13:11
But we are also investing around another 300 million dollars this year
先ほどお話した牛のモデルですが
13:15
to extend that coverage.
11万5千人が 電話サービスを近所の人たちに
13:20
Now, about that cow model I talked about.
提供しています
13:23
There are about 115,000 people who are retailing telephone services
5万2千の村 つまり8千万人が利用しています
13:29
in their neighborhoods.
これらの電話が稼ぎ出す収入は
13:31
And it's serving 52,000 villages, which represent about 80 million people.
グラミンフォンに1億ドルをもたらし
13:37
And these phones are generating
販売員の収入は1日2ドル 年間で7百ドルになります
13:41
about 100 million dollars for the company.
電話は万能ですから
13:44
And two dollars profit per entrepreneur per day, which is like 700 dollars per year.
所得や福祉を向上させます
13:53
And of course, it's very beneficial in a lot of ways.
グラミンフォンは350万人の加入者を持つ―
13:55
It increases income, improves welfare, etc.
最大手の電話会社になりました
13:58
And the result is, right now, this company is the largest telephone company,
先ほどの11万5千台の電話が
14:02
with 3.5 million subscribers,
全体3分の1の通話を担っています
14:05
115,000 of these phones I talked about --
2004年の税引き利益は1億2千万ドル
14:07
that produces about a third of the traffic in the network.
かなり莫大な税額を課されました
14:12
And 2004, the net profit, after taxes --
当社は政府財政に1億9千万ドルの貢献をしました
14:16
very serious taxes -- was 120 million dollars.
ここで検討してみましょう
14:20
And the company contributed about 190 million dollars to the government coffers.
政府の経済向上事業は必要か?
14:26
And again, here are some of the lessons.
実は 民間企業にも実行可能なのです
14:28
"The government needs to provide economically viable services."
政府が企業を補助する必要があると―
14:30
Actually, this is an instance where private companies can provide that.
考える人もいますが
14:33
"Governments need to subsidize private companies."
企業が納税で政府を助けているのです
14:36
This is what some people think.
貧しい人々は受益者でしかない?
14:38
And actually, private companies help governments with taxes.
いいえ 貧しい人々も資源なのです
14:41
"Poor people are recipients."
貧困地域のサービスはコスト高?
14:43
Poor people are a resource.
貧しい人の関与がコストを下げるのです
14:46
"Services cost too much for the poor."
彼らは教育もなく力にならない?
14:48
Their involvement reduces the cost.
有能で向学心もある逆境に強い人たちです
14:52
"The poor are uneducated and cannot do much."
実際驚くほどでした
14:55
They are very eager learners and very capable survivors.
多くが電話の使い方を1日で覚えました
14:58
I've been very surprised.
貧しい国には援助が必要?
15:00
Most of them learn how to operate a telephone within a day.
いいえ必要なのはビジネスです
15:03
"Poor countries need aid."
当社のもたらした経済効果の5%だけでも
15:06
Businesses -- this one company has raised the --
海外援助の総額を上回るGNP拡大効果をあげました
15:09
if the ideal figures are even five percent true, this one company
先にも話したように
15:14
is raising the GNP of the country much more than the aid the country receives.
援助には政府と市民を分断する弊害があるのです
15:19
And as I was trying to show you, as far as I'm concerned,
こちらは米国人発明家ディーン ケーメンとの新事業です
15:22
aid does damages because it removes the government from its citizens.
彼は発電機を作ってきたのですが
15:27
And this is a new project I have with Dean Kamen, the famous inventor in America.
今 バングラデシュの二つの村で実験をしています
15:31
He has produced some power generators,
牛の糞から発生する―
15:34
which we are now doing an experiment in Bangladesh,
バイオガスで動く発電機です
15:38
in two villages where cow manure is producing biogas,
1つの発電機で20家庭分の電気を販売しています
15:41
which is running these generators.
これはまだほんの実験です
15:45
And each of these generators is selling electricity to 20 houses each.
どう発展していくかまだ分かりませんが
15:48
It's just an experiment.
すでに動き始めています
15:52
We don't know how far it will go,
以上です ありがとう
15:53
but it's going on.
15:55
Thank you.
Translated by Hiroyuki Mori
Reviewed by Aiko McLean

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About the Speaker:

Iqbal Quadir - Founder, GrameenPhone
Iqbal Quadir is an advocate of business as a humanitarian tool. With GrameenPhone, he brought the first commercial telecom services to poor areas of Bangladesh. His latest project will help rural entrepreneurs build power plants.

Why you should listen

As a kid in rural Bangladesh in 1971, Iqbal Quadir had to walk half a day to another village to find the doctor -- who was not there. Twenty years later he felt the same frustration while working at a New York bank, using diskettes to share information during a computer network breakdown. His epiphany: In both cases, "connectivity is productivity." Had he been able to call the doctor, it would have saved him hours of walking for nothing.

Partnering with microcredit pioneer GrameenBank, in 1997 Quadir established GrameenPhone, a wireless operator now offering phone services to 80 million rural Bangladeshi. It's become the model for a bottom-up, tech-empowered approach to development. "Phones have a triple impact," Quadir says. "They provide business opportunities; connect the village to the world; and generate over time a culture of entrepreneurship, which is crucial for any economic development."

More profile about the speaker
Iqbal Quadir | Speaker | TED.com