ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Charles Limb - Researcher
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain.

Why you should listen

Charles Limb is the Francis A. Sooy, MD Professor and Chief of Otology/Neurotology and Skull Base Surgery at the University of California, San Francisco, and he's a Faculty Member at the Peabody Conservatory of Music. He combines his two passions to study the way the brain creates and perceives music. He's a hearing specialist and surgeon at Johns Hopkins who performs cochlear implantations on patients who have lost their hearing. And he plays sax, piano and bass.

In search of a better understanding of how the mind perceives complex auditory stimuli such as music, he's been working with Allen Braun to look at the brains of improvising musicians and study what parts of the brain are involved in the kind of deep creativity that happens when a musician is really in the groove.

Read our Q&A about hip-hop studies with Charles Limb on the TED Blog >>

Plus our quick catchup Q&A at TEDMED 2011 -- including his top 5 songs of all time >>

Read the 2014 paper "Neural Substrates of Interactive Musical Improvisation: An fMRI Study of ‘Trading Fours’ in Jazz" >>

More profile about the speaker
Charles Limb | Speaker | TED.com
TEDxMidAtlantic

Charles Limb: Your brain on improv

Charles Limb: Creierul tau improvizand

Filmed:
1,351,678 views

Muzicianul si cercetatorul Charles Limb s-a intrebat cum functioneaza creierul in timpul improvizatiei muzicale -- asa ca a pus cantareti Jazz si rapperi intr-un RMN pentru a afla. Ceea ce a aflat el si echipa sa are implicatii adanci in intelegerea creativitatii de toate tipurile.
- Researcher
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:15
So I am a surgeonchirurg who studiesstudiu creativitycreativitate,
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Sunt un chirurg care studiaza creativitatea
00:18
and I have never had a patientrabdator tell me
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dar n-am avut niciodata un pacient care sa-mi spuna
00:21
that "I really want you to be creativecreator duringpe parcursul surgeryinterventie chirurgicala,"
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"Doresc sa fii creativ in timpul operatiei."
00:24
and so I guessghici there's a little bitpic of ironyironie to it.
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Cred ca-i o doza de ironie in asta.
00:27
I will say thoughdeşi that, after havingavând doneTerminat surgeryinterventie chirurgicala a lot,
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Dupa multe operatii, as putea spune
00:30
it's somewhatoarecum similarasemănător to playingjoc a musicalmuzical instrumentinstrument.
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ca se aseamana cu cantatul la un instrument.
00:32
And for me, this sortfel of deepadâncime and enduringlungă durată fascinationfascinaţia with soundsunet
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Iar pentru mine, aceasta fascinatie profunda si de durata pentru sunet
00:35
is what led me to bothambii be a surgeonchirurg
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este cea ce m-a condus la a deveni chirurg
00:37
and alsode asemenea to studystudiu the scienceştiinţă of soundsunet, particularlyîn special musicmuzică.
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dar si la studiul stiintei sunetului, in special muzica.
00:39
And so I'm going to try to talk to you over the nextUrmător → fewpuțini minutesminute
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Asa ca voi incerca sa va vorbesc in urmatoarele minute
00:41
about my careerCarieră
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despre cariera mea
00:43
in termstermeni of how I'm ablecapabil to actuallyde fapt try to studystudiu musicmuzică
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si cum incerc de fapt sa studiez muzica
00:45
and really try to grapplegraifer with all these questionsîntrebări
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si sa ma lupt cu aceste intrebari
00:47
of how the braincreier is ablecapabil to be creativecreator.
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despre cum e capabil creierul sa fie creativ.
00:50
I've doneTerminat mostcel mai of this work at JohnsJohns HopkinsHopkins UniversityUniversitatea,
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Majoritatea acestui studiu l-am facut la universitatea Johns Hopkins.
00:52
but alsode asemenea at the NationalNaţionale InstituteInstitutul of HealthSănătate where I was previouslyîn prealabil.
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si la Institutul National de Sanatate unde am lucrat inainte.
00:54
I'm going to go over some scienceştiinţă experimentsexperimente
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Voi prezenta cateva experimente stiintifice
00:56
and try to coveracoperi threeTrei musicalmuzical experimentsexperimente.
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si voi incerca sa expun trei experimente muzicale.
00:58
I'm going to startstart off by playingjoc a videovideo for you.
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Voi incepe prin a rula un video.
01:00
And this videovideo is a videovideo of KeithKeith JarrettJarrett, who'scine a well-knownbine-cunoscut jazzjazz improviserimprovizator
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E un clip cu Keith Jarret, un bine cunoscut improvizator de muzica jazz,
01:03
and probablyprobabil the mostcel mai well-knownbine-cunoscut, iconiciconic exampleexemplu
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probabil cel mai bine cunoscut exemplu iconic
01:06
of someonecineva who takes improvisationimprovizaţie to a really highersuperior levelnivel.
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al cuiva care duce improvizatia la un nivel superior.
01:08
And he'lliad improviseimproviza entireîntreg concertsconcerte
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El va improviza concerte intregi
01:10
off the toptop of his headcap,
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din mintea lui
01:12
and he'lliad never playa juca it exactlyexact the samela fel way again,
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si niciodata nu le va interpreta in acelasi fel.
01:14
and so, as a formformă of intenseintens creativitycreativitate,
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Pentru o forma de creativitate intensa
01:16
I think this is a great exampleexemplu.
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cred ca acesta e un exemplu excelent.
01:18
And so why don't we go and clickclic the videovideo.
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Sa pornim clipul.
01:21
(MusicMuzica)
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(Muzica)
02:17
It's really a remarkableremarcabil, awesomeminunat thing that happensse întâmplă there.
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E remarcabil, minunat ce se petrece acolo.
02:20
I've always -- just as a listenerascultător, as just a fanventilator --
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Dintotdeauna -- doar ca ascultator, ca fan --
02:22
I listen to that, and I'm just astoundeduluit.
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ascult si sunt efectiv uimit.
02:24
I think -- how can this possiblyeventual be?
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Ma intreb: cum poate fi posibil?
02:26
How can the braincreier generateGenera that much informationinformație,
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Cum poate creierul sa genereze spontan
02:28
that much musicmuzică, spontaneouslyspontan?
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atat de multa informatie, atat de multa muzica?
02:30
And so I seta stabilit out with this conceptconcept, scientificallyştiinţific,
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Asadar am pornit de la acest concept stiintific:
02:33
that artisticartistic creativitycreativitate, it's magicalmagic, but it's not magicmagie,
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creativitatea artistica e magica dar nu magie,
02:36
meaningsens that it's a productprodus of the braincreier.
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adica e un produs al creierului.
02:38
There's not too manymulți brain-deadin moarte cerebrala people creatingcrearea artartă.
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Nu exista multi oameni in coma care sa creeze arta.
02:41
And so with this notionnoţiune that artisticartistic creativitycreativitate
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Deci cu aceasta notiune a creativitatii artistice
02:43
is in factfapt a neurologicneurologice productprodus,
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fiind de fapt un produs neurologic,
02:45
I tooka luat this thesisteză that we could studystudiu it
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am pornit la studiul acestei teze
02:48
just like we studystudiu any other complexcomplex neurologicneurologice processproces.
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exact la fel cum studiem orice alt proces neurologic complex.
02:51
And I think there's some sub-questionssub-întrebări there that I put there.
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Cred ca mi-am pus niste intrebari mai nuantate.
02:53
Is it trulycu adevărat possibleposibil to studystudiu creativitycreativitate scientificallyştiinţific?
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Chiar e posibila studierea stiintifica a creativitatii?
02:55
And I think that's a good questionîntrebare.
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Cred ca asta-i o intrebare buna.
02:57
And I'll tell you that mostcel mai scientificștiințific studiesstudiu of musicmuzică,
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Cele mai multe studii stiintifice despre muzica
03:00
they're very densedens,
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sunt foarte complicate.
03:02
and when you actuallyde fapt go throughprin them, it's very hardgreu to recognizerecunoaşte the musicmuzică in it.
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In aceste studii, e greu sa recunosti muzica din ele.
03:05
In factfapt, they seempărea to be very unmusicalunmusical entirelyîn întregime
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De fapt, par in intregime non-muzicale
03:07
and to missdomnișoară the wholeîntreg pointpunct of the musicmuzică.
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fiind greu sa discerni ce-i determinat strict de muzica.
03:09
And so it bringsaduce the secondal doilea questionîntrebare:
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Astfel, apare a doua intrebare:
03:11
Why should scientistsoamenii de știință studystudiu creativitycreativitate?
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De ce ar trebui oamenii de stiinta sa studieze creativitatea?
03:13
Maybe we're not the right people to do it.
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Poate nu suntem oamenii potriviti sa facem asta.
03:15
Well it mayMai be,
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Posibil,
03:17
but I will say that, from a scientificștiințific perspectiveperspectivă --
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dar voi spune ca, dintr-o perspectiva stiintifica --
03:19
we talkeda vorbit a lot about innovationinovaţie todayastăzi --
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am vorbit azi foarte mult despre inovatie --
03:21
the scienceştiinţă of innovationinovaţie,
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stiinta inovatiei.
03:23
how much we understanda intelege about how the braincreier is ablecapabil to innovateinova
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Studiul despre cum poate creierul sa inventeze
03:25
is in its infancycopilărie,
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se afla doar la inceput.
03:27
and trulycu adevărat, we know very little about how we are ablecapabil to be creativecreator.
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Intr-adevar stim foarte putin despre cum putem fi creativi.
03:30
And so I think that we're going to see
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Cred ca vom vedea
03:32
over the nextUrmător → 10, 20, 30 yearsani
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in urmatorii 10, 20, 30 de ani
03:34
a realreal scienceştiinţă of creativitycreativitate that's burgeoningînmugurire and is going to flourishînflori.
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o adevarata stiinta a creativitatii care va inmuguri si va inflori.
03:37
Because we now have newnou methodsmetode that can enablepermite us
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Pentru ca avem acum metode noi care ne permit
03:39
to take this processproces of something like this,
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sa luam un astfel de proces complex,
03:41
complexcomplex jazzjazz improvisationimprovizaţie, and studystudiu it rigorouslyriguros.
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ca improvizatia muzicii de jazz, si sa o studiem riguros .
03:43
And so it getsdevine down to the braincreier.
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Deci se ajunge la creier.
03:45
And so all of us have this remarkableremarcabil braincreier,
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Toti avem acest creier remarcabil,
03:47
whichcare is poorlyslab understoodînțeles to say the leastcel mai puţin.
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care-i insa foarte putin inteles.
03:50
I think that neuroscientistsNeurologii
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Cred ca neurologii
03:52
have manymulți more questionsîntrebări than answersrăspunsuri,
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au mai multe intrebari decat raspunsuri.
03:54
and I myselfeu insumi, I'm not going to give you manymulți answersrăspunsuri todayastăzi,
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Si nici eu nu voi da multe raspunsuri astazi,
03:56
just askcere a lot of questionsîntrebări.
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ci doar voi pune multe intrebari.
03:58
And fundamentallyfundamental that's what I do in my lablaborator.
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In esenta, asta-i ce fac eu in laborator.
04:00
I askcere questionsîntrebări about what is this braincreier doing to enablepermite us to do this.
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Pun intrebari despre ce face creierul sa ne permita creativitatea.
04:02
This is the mainprincipal methodmetodă that I use. This is calleddenumit functionalfuncţional MRIRMN.
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Asta-i metoda de baza pe care o folosesc. Se numeste RMN functional.
04:05
If you've been in an MRIRMN scannerscaner, it's very much the samela fel,
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Daca ati fost intr-un scaner RMN, e foarte asemanator,
04:08
but this one is outfittedechipat in a specialspecial way
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dar acesta este echipat intr-un mod special
04:10
to not just take picturespoze of your braincreier,
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nu doar pentru a fotografia creierul,
04:12
but to alsode asemenea take picturespoze of activeactiv areaszone of the braincreier.
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ci, totodata, zone active din creier.
04:15
Now the way that's doneTerminat is by the followingca urmare a.
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Se procedeaza in felul urmator.
04:17
There's something calleddenumit BOLDBOLD imagingimagistica,
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Exista ceva numit inregistrare BOLD,
04:19
whichcare is BloodSânge OxygenOxigen LevelNivel DependentDependente imagingimagistica.
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adica inregistrarea nivelului de oxigen din sange.
04:21
Now when you're in an fMRIfMRI scannerscaner,
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Cand te afli intr-un aparat fRMN,
04:23
you're in a bigmare magnetmagnet
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te afli in interiorul unui magnet imens
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that's aligningalinierea your moleculesmolecule in certainanumit areaszone.
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care iti aliniaza moleculele in anumite zone.
04:27
When an areazonă of the braincreier is activeactiv, meaningsens a neuralneural areazonă is activeactiv,
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Cand o zona a creierului e activa, adica o zona neurala e activa,
04:30
it getsdevine bloodsânge flowcurgere shuntedtriate to that areazonă.
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aceasta primeste un flux de sange.
04:33
That bloodsânge flowcurgere causescauze an increasecrește
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Fluxul de sange suplimentar cauzeaza o intensificare
04:35
in locallocal bloodsânge to that areazonă
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a volumului de sange din acea zona
04:37
with a deoxyhemoglobindeoxyhemoglobin changeSchimbare in concentrationconcentraţie.
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cu o schimbare a concentratiei de 2-oxihemoglobina.
04:40
DeoxyhemoglobinDeoxyhemoglobin can be detecteddetectat by MRIRMN,
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2-oxihemoglobina poate fi detectata de RMN,
04:42
whereasîntrucât oxyhemoglobinoxyhemoglobin can't.
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in timp ce oxihemoglobina nu poate.
04:44
So throughprin this methodmetodă of inferencededucție --
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Prin aceasta metoda de deductie --
04:46
and we're measuringmăsurare bloodsânge flowcurgere, not neuralneural activityactivitate --
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masuram circulatia sangelui, nu activitatea neurala --
04:48
we say that an areazonă of the braincreier that's gettingobtinerea more bloodsânge
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spunem ca o zona a creierului care primeste mai mult sange
04:50
was activeactiv duringpe parcursul a particularspecial tasksarcină,
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a fost activa in timpul acelui proces.
04:52
and that's the cruxCrucea Sudului of how fMRIfMRI workslucrări.
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Si asta-i esenta functionarii fRMN-ului.
04:54
And it's been used sincede cand the '90s
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E folosita din anii '90
04:56
to studystudiu really complexcomplex processesprocese.
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pentru a studia procese complexe.
04:59
Now I'm going to reviewrevizuire a studystudiu that I did,
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Acum voi expune un studiu pe care l-am facut
05:01
whichcare was jazzjazz in an fMRIfMRI scannerscaner.
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constand in interpretarea de muzica Jazz intr-un scaner fRMN.
05:03
And this was doneTerminat with a colleaguecoleg of mineA mea, AlanAlan BraunBraun, at the NIHNIH.
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Am facut acest studiu impreuna cu colegul meu, Alan Braun, la institutul NIH.
05:05
This is a shortmic de statura videovideo of how we did this projectproiect.
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Asta e un scurt clip ilustrand cum am facut acest proiect.
05:08
(VideoPagina) CharlesCharles LimbMembrelor: This is a plasticplastic MIDIMIDI pianopian keyboardtastatură
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(Video) Charles Limb: Asta e o claviatura de plastic MIDI
05:10
that we use for the jazzjazz experimentsexperimente.
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pe care o folosim pentru experimentele de jazz.
05:12
And it's a 35-key-cheie keyboardtastatură
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E o claviatura cu 35 de clape
05:14
that is designedproiectat to fitpotrivi bothambii insideinterior the scannerscaner,
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conceputa sa se potriveasca in scanerul RMN,
05:16
be magneticallymagnetic safesigur,
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neafectata magnetic,
05:18
have minimalminim interferenceamestec
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cu interferente minime
05:20
that would contributea contribui to any artifactartefact
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care sa nu modifice rezultatul
05:22
and have this cushionpernă so that it can restodihnă on the players'jucători legspicioare
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si aceasta perinita pentru a fi sprijinita pe picioarele interpretului
05:25
while they're lyingminciună down in the scannerscaner, playingjoc on theiral lor back.
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in timp ce sta pe spate si interpreteaza in interiorul RMN-ului.
05:28
And it workslucrări like this -- this doesn't actuallyde fapt producelegume şi fructe any soundsunet.
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Functioneaza astfel -- asta nu produce nici un sunet.
05:31
It sendstrimite out what's calleddenumit a MIDIMIDI signalsemnal --
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Transmite ce se numeste un semnal MIDI --
05:33
or a MusicalMuzicale InstrumentInstrumentul DigitalDigital InterfaceInterfata --
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adica interfata digitala de instrument muzical --
05:35
throughprin these wiresfire into the boxcutie and then the computercomputer,
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prin aceste cabluri in cutie si apoi in calculator,
05:38
whichcare then triggertrăgaci high-qualitycalitate pianopian sampleseșantioane like this.
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producand apoi sunete de pian de inalta calitate.
05:41
(MusicMuzica)
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(Muzica)
05:47
(MusicMuzica)
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(Muzica)
06:09
CLCL: Okay, so it workslucrări.
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CL: Bun, deci functioneaza.
06:11
And so throughprin this pianopian keyboardtastatură,
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Si cu aceasta claviatura de pian,
06:13
we now have the meansmijloace to take a musicalmuzical processproces and studystudiu it.
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avem acum mijloacele pentru a studia un proces muzical.
06:15
So what do you do now that you have this coolmisto pianopian keyboardtastatură?
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Deci ce faci acum cu aceasta claviatura faina?
06:18
You can't just sortfel of -- "It's great we'vene-am got this keyboardtastatură."
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Nu poti doar sa spui: "Ce tare ca avem aceasta claviatura."
06:20
We actuallyde fapt have to come up with a scientificștiințific experimentexperiment.
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Trebuie sa concepem un experiment stiintific.
06:22
And so the experimentexperiment really restsrevine on the followingca urmare a:
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Deci experimentul consta in urmatoarele:
06:26
What happensse întâmplă in the braincreier duringpe parcursul something that's memorizedmemorat and over-learnedsupra-învăţat de,
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Ce se petrece in creier in timpul redarii a ceva memorat, stiut pe dinafara,
06:29
and what happensse întâmplă in the braincreier duringpe parcursul something
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si ce se intampla in creier atunci cand ceva
06:31
that is spontaneouslyspontan generatedgenerate, or improvisedimprovizate,
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e generat sau improvizat spontan
06:33
in a way that's matchedpotrivire motoricallymotorically
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producand reactii motrice similare,
06:35
and in termstermeni of lower-levelnivel inferior sensorysenzorial motormotor featurescaracteristici?
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privind prin prisma functiilor sensoriale motrice?
06:38
And so, I have here what we call the "paradigmsparadigme."
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Asadar, am aici ceea ce numim paradigme.
06:41
There's a scalescară paradigmparadigmă, whichcare is just playingjoc a scalescară up and down, memorizedmemorat.
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Un exemplu de gama memorata, canta gama in sus si-n jos.
06:44
And then there's improvisingsă improvizeze on a scalescară --
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Apoi improvizarea pe gama --
06:46
quartersfert notesnotițe, metronomemetronom, right handmână --
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patrimile de nota, metronomul, mana dreapta --
06:48
scientificallyştiinţific very safesigur,
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stiintific e foarte corect,
06:50
but musicallymuzical really boringplictisitor.
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dar muzical e foarte plictisitor.
06:52
And then there's the bottomfund one, whichcare is calleddenumit the jazzjazz paradigmparadigmă.
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Si apoi, cea de jos, numita "paradigma jazz".
06:54
And so what we did was we broughtadus professionalprofesional jazzjazz playersjucători to the NIHNIH,
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Deci am adus cantareti profesionisti de jazz la NIH
06:56
and we had them memorizememora this piecebucată of musicmuzică on the left, the lower-leftstânga --
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pe care i-am pus sa memoreze aceasta piesa muzicala din stanga-jos,
06:59
whichcare is what you heardauzit me playingjoc --
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-- chiar ce am interpretat eu --
07:01
and then we had them improviseimproviza to the samela fel exactcorect chordcoardă changesschimbări.
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si apoi i-am pus sa improvizeze in aceiasi gama.
07:04
And if you can hitlovit that lower-rightdreapta jos soundsunet iconicoană,
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Daca apasati pe simbolul de sunet din dreapta-jos,
07:06
that's an exampleexemplu of what was recordedînregistrate in the scannerscaner.
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asta e un exemplu de inregistrare din scaner.
07:08
(MusicMuzica)
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(Muzica)
07:36
So in the endSfârşit, it's not the mostcel mai naturalnatural environmentmediu inconjurator,
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In fine, nu-i cel mai natural mediu
07:38
but they're ablecapabil to playa juca realreal musicmuzică.
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dar pot canta la instrument realmente.
07:40
And I've listenedascultat to that solosolo 200 timesori,
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Am ascultat acel solo de 200 ori
07:42
and I still like it.
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si inca imi place.
07:44
And the musiciansmuzicieni, they were comfortableconfortabil in the endSfârşit.
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Muzicienii s-au simtit in largul lor pana la urma.
07:46
And so we first measuredmăsurat the numbernumăr of notesnotițe.
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Am masurat prima data numarul notelor.
07:48
Were they in factfapt just playingjoc a lot more notesnotițe when they were improvisingsă improvizeze?
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Cantau doar mai multe note cand improvizau?
07:50
That was not what was going on.
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Nu era asta.
07:52
And then we lookedprivit at the braincreier activityactivitate.
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Ne-am uitat apoi la activitatea cerebrala.
07:54
I'm going to try to condensecondensa this for you.
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Voi incerca sa rezum.
07:56
These are contrastcontrast mapshărţi that are showingarătând subtractionsscaderi
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Astea sunt reprezentari de contrast care arata diferenta
07:59
betweenîntre what changesschimbări when you're improvisingsă improvizeze
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intre ceea ce se schimba cand improvizezi
08:01
versusimpotriva when you're doing something memorizedmemorat.
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comparativ cu interpretarea memorata.
08:03
In redroșu is an areazonă that activeactiv in the prefrontalprefrontal cortexcortex,
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In rosu e zona activa din cortexul prefrontal,
08:05
the frontalfrontal lobelob of the braincreier,
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lobul frontal.
08:07
and in bluealbastru is this areazonă that was deactivateddezactivat.
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Iar in albastru e zona inactiva.
08:09
And so we had this focalfocale areazonă calleddenumit the medialmedial prefrontalprefrontal cortexcortex
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Am observat ca aceasta zona numita
08:11
that wenta mers way up in activityactivitate.
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cortex prefrontal s-a activat intens.
08:13
We had this broadlarg patchplasture of areazonă calleddenumit the laterallateral prefrontalprefrontal cortexcortex
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Iar aceasta suprafata mare numita cortex prefrontal lateral
08:16
that wenta mers way down in activityactivitate, and I'll summarizerezuma that for you here.
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a inregistrat o mare scadere in activitate; voi rezuma aici.
08:19
Now these are multifunctionalMultifunctionale areaszone of the braincreier.
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Astea sunt zone multifunctionale ale creierului.
08:21
As I like to say, these are not the "jazzjazz areaszone" of the braincreier.
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Nu sunt "zonele jazz" ale creierului.
08:24
They do a wholeîntreg hostgazdă of things
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Ele fac o multime de lucruri
08:26
that have to do with self-reflectionauto-reflecţia,
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legate de relfexie,
08:28
introspectionintrospecţie, workinglucru memorymemorie and so forthmai departe.
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introspectie, memorie activa, etc.
08:30
Really, consciousnessconstiinta is seatedaşezat in the frontalfrontal lobelob.
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De fapt, constiinta e situata in lobul frontal.
08:33
But we have this combinationcombinaţie
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Dar aveam aceasta combinatie
08:35
of an areazonă that's thought to be involvedimplicat in self-monitoringauto-monitorizare, turningcotitură off,
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a unei suprafete ce-i implicata in controlul de sine, focalizandu-se spre interior,
08:38
and this areazonă that's thought to be autobiographicalautobiografice,
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si aceasta suprafata despre care se crede a fi autobiografica,
08:40
or self-expressiveSelf-Expressive, turningcotitură on.
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sau exprexiva, focalizandu-se spre exterior.
08:42
And we think, at leastcel mai puţin in this preliminarypreliminar --
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Si credem, cel putin preliminar --
08:44
it's one studystudiu; it's probablyprobabil wronggresit,
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E doar un singur studiu. Probabil e gresit.
08:46
but it's one studystudiu --
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Dar e un studiu.
08:48
we think that at leastcel mai puţin a reasonablerezonabil hypothesisipoteză
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Credem, cel putin ca ipoteza rezonabila
08:51
is that, to be creativecreator,
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ca pentru a fi creativ
08:53
you have to have this weirdciudat dissociationdisociere in your frontalfrontal lobelob.
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trebuie sa ai aceasta disociere ciudata in lobul frontal.
08:55
One areazonă turnstransformă on, and a bigmare areazonă shutsse închide off,
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O zona se deschide, o zona mare se inchide,
08:57
so that you're not inhibitedinhibat, so that you're willingdispus to make mistakesgreșeli,
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asa ca nu esti inhibat, esti dispus sa faci greseli,
09:00
so that you're not constantlymereu shuttingînchiderea down
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ca sa nu blochezi mereu
09:02
all of these newnou generativegenerativ impulsesimpulsuri.
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toate aceste noi impulsuri generate.
09:05
Now a lot of people know that musicmuzică is not always a solosolo activityactivitate --
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Stim ca muzica nu e intotdeauna o activitate solo --
09:08
sometimesuneori it's doneTerminat communicativelyprocesul.
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cateodata e creata comunicand.
09:10
And so the nextUrmător → questionîntrebare was:
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Asa ca urmatoarea intrebare a fost:
09:12
What happensse întâmplă when musiciansmuzicieni are tradingcomercial back and forthmai departe,
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Ce se intampla cand muzicienii canta simultan,
09:14
something calleddenumit "tradingcomercial fourspatru labe,"
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ceva numit "trading fours" [alterneaza tot la 4 masuri],
09:16
whichcare is something they do normallyîn mod normal in a jazzjazz experimentexperiment?
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ceva normal intr-un experiment jazz.
09:18
So this is a twelve-bardoisprezece-bar bluesBlues.
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Astea sunt 12 masuri dintr-un blues.
09:20
And I've brokenspart it down into four-barFour-bar groupsGrupuri here,
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Le-am despartit in grupe de 4 masuri,
09:22
so you would know how you would tradecomerț.
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ca sa intelegeti cum se face schimbul.
09:24
Now what we did was we broughtadus a musicianmuzician into the scannerscaner -- samela fel way --
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Am adus un muzician in scanerul RMN -- la fel --
09:26
had them memorizememora this melodymelodie
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l-am pus sa memoreze aceasta melodie,
09:28
and then had anothero alta musicianmuzician out in the controlControl roomcameră
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apoi in camera de control am avut un alt muzician
09:30
tradingcomercial back and forthmai departe interactivelyinteractiv.
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comunicand muzical interactiv.
09:33
So this is a musicianmuzician, MikeMike PopePapa,
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Acesta e muzicianul Mike Pope,
09:35
one of the world'slume bestCel mai bun bassistsbassists and a fantasticfantastic pianopian playerjucător.
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unul din cei mai buni basisti din lume si un pianist fantastic.
09:43
So he's now playingjoc the piecebucată
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Acum el interpreteaza o piesa
09:45
that we just saw
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pe care tocmai am vazut-o
09:47
just a little better than I wrotea scris it.
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dar mai bine decat mine.
09:49
(VideoPagina) CLCL: MikeMike, come on in. MikeMike PopePapa: MayPoate the forceforta be with you.
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(Clip) CL: Intra, Mike.
09:51
NurseAsistentă medicală: Nothing'sNimic nu e in your pocketsbuzunare, right MikeMike?
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Asistenta: Nimic in buzunare, Mike?
09:53
MPMP: NopeNope. Nothing'sNimic nu e in my pocketsbuzunare. NurseAsistentă medicală: Okay.
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Mike Pope: Nu. Nimic in buzunare. >>Asistenta: OK.
10:05
CLCL: You have to have the right attitudeatitudine to agreede acord to it.
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CL: Trebuie sa ai atitudine pozitiva sa fi de acord cu asta.
10:07
(LaughterRâs)
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(Rasete)
10:09
It's kinddrăguț of fundistracţie actuallyde fapt.
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E chiar distractiv de fapt.
10:11
And so now we're playingjoc back and forthmai departe.
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Deci acum cantam interactiv.
10:14
He's in there. You can see his legspicioare up there.
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El e inauntru. Ii vedeti picioarele.
10:18
And then I'm in the controlControl roomcameră here, playingjoc back and forthmai departe.
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Iar eu aici in camera de control, cantand simultan.
10:21
(MusicMuzica)
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(Muzica)
10:33
(VideoPagina) MikeMike PopePapa: This is a prettyfrumos good representationreprezentare
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(Clip) Mike Pope: Asta-i o reprezentare chiar buna
10:36
of what it's like.
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a ceea ce se intampla in realitate.
10:38
And it's good that it's not too quickrapid.
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Si e bine ca nu-i prea in graba.
10:40
The factfapt that we do it over and over again
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Faptul ca facem odata si inca odata
10:42
letspermite you acclimateaclimatiza to your surroundingsîmprejurimi.
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ma lasa sa ma acomodez cu imprejurimile.
10:46
So the hardestcel mai greu thing for me was the kinesthetickinestezic thing,
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Cel mai complicat pentru mine a fost aspectul chinestezic
10:49
of looking at my handsmâini
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de a ma uita la maini
10:51
throughprin two mirrorsoglinzi,
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prin 2 oglinzi,
10:53
layingde stabilire a on my back
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intins pe spate
10:55
and not ablecapabil to movemișcare at all exceptcu exceptia for my handmână.
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si neputandu-ma misca deloc, exceptand mainile.
10:57
That was challengingprovocator.
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Asta a fost o incercare.
10:59
But again,
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Dar cu siguranta,
11:01
there were momentsmomente, for sure,
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au fost momente,
11:04
there were momentsmomente
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sincer,
11:06
of realreal, honest-to-Godsincer la Dumnezeu musicalmuzical interplayinteracţiune, for sure.
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momente reale de interactiune muzicala, cu siguranta.
11:10
CLCL: At this pointpunct, I'll take a fewpuțini momentsmomente.
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CL: OK, acum voi lua cateva momente.
11:12
And so what you're seeingvedere here --
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Asadar ceea ce vedeti aici --
11:14
and I'm doing a cardinalCardinalul sinPăcat in scienceştiinţă,
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Si cu asta fac un pacat principial in stiinta,
11:16
whichcare is to showspectacol you preliminarypreliminar datadate.
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aratandu-va date prelimarii.
11:18
This is one subject'ssubiectul datadate.
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Acestea sunt datele unui subiect.
11:20
This is, in factfapt, MikeMike Pope'sPapei datadate.
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Acestea sunt, de fapt, datele lui Mike Pope.
11:22
So what am I showingarătând you here?
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Asadar ce va arat aici?
11:24
When he was tradingcomercial fourspatru labe with me, improvisingsă improvizeze versusimpotriva memorizedmemorat,
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Cand el canta interactiv cu mine, improvizand, nu din memorie,
11:27
his languagelimba areaszone litluminat up, his Broca'sBroca areazonă,
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suprafata ce tine de vorbire s-a aprins, suprafata Broca,
11:30
whichcare is inferiorinferioare frontalfrontal gyrusgirusul on the left.
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care e girusul frontal inferior din stanga.
11:32
He actuallyde fapt had it alsode asemenea homologousomolog on the right.
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De fapt s-a aprins si omologul acestuia din dreapta.
11:34
This is an areazonă thought to be involvedimplicat in expressiveexpresiv communicationcomunicare.
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Asta e suprafata presupusa a fi implicata in comunicarea expresiva.
11:37
This wholeîntreg notionnoţiune that musicmuzică is a languagelimba --
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Aceasta intreaga notiune ca muzica e un limbaj,
11:39
well maybe there's a neurologicneurologice basisbază to it in factfapt after all,
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poate are o baza neurologica de fapt,
11:42
and we can see it when two musiciansmuzicieni are havingavând a musicalmuzical conversationconversaţie.
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si o vedem atunci cand doi muzicieni comunica muzical.
11:45
And so we'vene-am doneTerminat this actuallyde fapt on eightopt subjectssubiecți now,
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Am facut acest studiu pe 8 indivizi pana acum,
11:47
and we're just gettingobtinerea all the datadate togetherîmpreună,
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si abia organizam toate datele.
11:49
so hopefullyin speranta we'llbine have something to say about it meaningfullyîn mod semnificativ.
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Deci speram ca vom concluziona ceva semnificativ.
11:51
Now when I think about improvisationimprovizaţie and the languagelimba, well what's nextUrmător →?
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Considerand acum legatura improvizatie-limbaj, ce urmeaza?
11:54
RapRap, of coursecurs, raprap --
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Muzica rap, bineinteles, rap --
11:56
free-stylestil liber.
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free-style [stilul-liber].
11:58
And so I've always been fascinatedfascinat by free-stylestil liber.
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Am fost intotdeauna fascinat de free-style.
12:00
And let's go aheadînainte and playa juca this videovideo here.
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Asa ca haideti sa rulam aceasta inregistrare.
12:02
(VideoPagina) MosMos DefDef: ♫ ... brownmaro skinpiele I be, standingpermanent five-tencinci-zece I be ♫
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(Clip) Mos Def: ♫ Am pielea neagra, sunt inalt de 1.80 ♫
12:04
Rockin'Rockin ' it when I be, in your vicinityvecinătate
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♫ Facandu-mi de cap cand sunt in preajma ta ♫
12:07
Whole-styleÎntreg-stil synergySinergia, recognizerecunoaşte symmetrysimetrie
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♫ Sinergie plina de stil, recunoaste simetria ♫
12:09
♫ Go and try to injurerăni me, brokerupt 'em„em down chemicallychimic
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♫ Incearca, raneste-ma, dizolva-ma chimic ♫
12:12
Ain'tNu este the numbernumăr 10 MCMC, talk about how been I be ♫
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♫ Nu sunt al 10-lea M.C, vorbind despre ce am fost ♫
12:14
StyledStil it like KennedyKennedy, latetârziu like a 10 to threeTrei
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♫ Stilat ca un Kennedy, cum e 10 dupa 3 ♫
12:17
♫ When I say when I be, girlsfete say bendîndoire that keycheie cuta taia
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♫ Cand spun unde-oi fi, fetele zic indoaie cheile ♫
12:20
CLCL: And so there's a lot of analogyanalogie
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CL: Asadar observam o intreaga analogie
12:22
betweenîntre what takes placeloc in free-stylestil liber raprap and jazzjazz.
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intre ce se petrece in rap si in jazz.
12:24
There are, in factfapt, a lot of correlationscorelații betweenîntre the two formsformulare of musicmuzică
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Sunt chiar multe corelari intre cele 2 tipuri de muzica
12:26
I think in differentdiferit time periodsperioadele.
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desi apartin in doua epoci diferite.
12:28
In a lot a waysmoduri, raprap servesservește the samela fel socialsocial functionfuncţie
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In multe feluri, rap-ul deserveste aceleasi functii sociale
12:30
that jazzjazz used to serveservi.
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pe care muzica jazz le servea.
12:32
So how do you studystudiu raprap scientificallyştiinţific?
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Deci cum studiezi stiintific muzica rap?
12:34
And my colleaguescolegii kinddrăguț of think I'm crazynebun,
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Colegii mei ma cam cred nebun.
12:36
but I think it's very viableviabil.
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dar eu cred ca-i foarte viabil.
12:38
And so this is what you do: you have a free-stylestil liber artistartist
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Deci asta-i ce faci: aduci un artist de free-style
12:40
come in and memorizememora a raprap that you writescrie for them,
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il pui sa memoreze o melodie rap pe care o scrii tu pentru ei,
12:42
that they'vele-au never heardauzit before,
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pe care n-au mai auzit-o niciodata,
12:44
and then you have them free-stylestil liber.
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iar apoi îi pui sa cante free-style.
12:46
So I told my lablaborator membersmembrii that I would raprap for TEDTED,
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Asadar le-am spus colegilor de laborator ca voi canta rap pentru TED,
12:48
and they said, "No, you won'tnu va."
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iar ei au spus, "Nu, nu vei face asta."
12:50
And then I thought --
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Iar apoi m-am gandit --
12:52
(ApplauseAplauze)
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(Aplauze)
12:58
But here'saici e the thing.
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Uite cum sta treaba.
13:00
With this bigmare screenecran, you can all raprap with me. Okay?
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Cu acest ecran imens, puteti toti canta rap cu mine. Bine?
13:03
So what we had them do
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Asa ca le-am cerut
13:05
was memorizememora this lower-leftstânga soundsunet iconicoană, please.
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sa memoreze de la acest buton de sunet din stanga jos.
13:07
This is the controlControl conditioncondiție. This is what they memorizedmemorat.
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Asta-i partea controlata. Asta au memorat.
13:10
ComputerCalculator: ♫ MemoryMemorie, thumpbocăni. ♫
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Calculator: ♫ Memorie, ridica volumul. ♫
13:12
CLCL: ♫ ThumpBocăni of the beatbate in a knowncunoscut repeatrepeta
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CL: ♫ Ridica volumul repetat ♫
13:15
RhythmRitm and rhymerimă, they make me completecomplet
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♫ Ritmul si rima, ma completeaza ♫
13:18
♫ The climba urca is sublimesublim when I'm on the micMic
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♫ Ascensiunea-i sublima cand sunt la microfon ♫
13:20
Spittin'Spittin' rhymesrime that hitlovit you like a lightningfulger strikegrevă
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♫ Aruncand rime care te lovesc ca un fulger ♫
13:23
♫ I searchcăutare for the truthadevăr in this eternalveşnică questQuest
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♫ Caut adevarul in aceasta misiune eterna ♫
13:25
♫ My passion'spasiune pe not fashionModă, you can see how I'm dressedtăbăcit
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♫ Pasiunea mea nu-i moda, uite cum sunt imbracat ♫
13:28
PsychopathicPsihopat wordscuvinte in my headcap appearapărea
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♫ Cuvinte psihopate, in capul meu apar ♫
13:31
WhisperSoapta these lyricsVersuri only I can hearauzi
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♫ Soptesc aceste versuri ca doar eu sa aud ♫
13:34
♫ The artartă of discoveringdescoperirea and that whichcare is hoveringsituându-se
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♫ Arta in descoperire si in plutire ♫
13:36
InsideÎn interiorul the mindminte of those unconfinedambele
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♫ In mintea celor neinhibati ♫
13:39
♫ All of these wordscuvinte keep pouringturnare out like rainploaie
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♫ Si toate cuvintele astea tot curg ca ploaia♫
13:42
♫ I need a madnebun scientistom de stiinta to checkVerifica my braincreier
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♫ Am nevoie de un medic nebun sa-mi verifice creierul ♫
13:45
(ApplauseAplauze)
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(Aplauze)
13:54
I guaranteegaranție you that will never happenîntâmpla again.
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Va garantez, asta nu se va mai intampla niciodata.
13:57
(LaughterRâs)
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(Rasete)
13:59
So now, what's great about these free-stylersprintre gratuite,
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Ce-i grozav la acesti free-style-eri,
14:01
they will get cuedcued differentdiferit wordscuvinte.
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e ca prind din zbor cuvinte cheie.
14:03
They don't know what's comingvenire, but they'llei vor hearauzi something off the cuffmanşetă.
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Ei nu stiu ce urmeaza, dar vor auzi ceva spontan
14:05
Go aheadînainte and hitlovit that right soundsunet iconicoană.
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Da-i drumul, apasa pe butonul de sunet.
14:07
They are going to be cuedcued these threeTrei squarepătrat wordscuvinte: "like," "not" and "headcap."
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Vor auzi aceste cuvine cheie: "like", "not" si "head".
14:10
He doesn't know what's comingvenire.
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El nu stie ce urmeaza.
14:12
Free-stylerGratuit-styler: ♫ I'm like some kinddrăguț of [unclearneclar] ♫
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Free-style-er: ♫ Sunt intr-un fel de zbor ♫
14:14
♫ [unclearneclar] extraterrestrialextraterestru, celestialCelestial scenescenă
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♫ pe bolta cereasca, in spatiu stelar ♫
14:17
♫ Back in the dayszi, I used to sitsta in pyramidspiramide and meditatemedita
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♫ Mai de mult, stateam in piramide si meditam ♫
14:20
♫ With two microphonesmicrofoane hoveringsituându-se over my headcap
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♫ Cu 2 microfoane plutind peste cap ♫
14:23
♫ See if I could still listen, spittin'spittin' off the soundsunet
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♫ De-oi mai putea asculta, scuipand sunete ♫
14:26
♫ See what you grinningRânjit
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♫ Vad ca te strambi ♫
14:28
♫ I teacha preda the childrencopii in the back of the classroomsală de clasă
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♫ Predau elevilor in spatele clasei ♫
14:30
♫ About the messagemesaj of apocalypticalapocalyptical
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♫ Mesajul apocaliptic ♫
14:33
♫ Not really thoughdeşi, 'causepentru ca I've got to keep it simplesimplu
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♫ Nu prea complicat, caci tre sa fie simplu ♫
14:36
♫ [unclearneclar] instrumentalinstrumental
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♫ instrumental ♫
14:38
DetrimentalÎn detrimentul playingjoc SuperSuper MarioMario
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♫ Joc periculos cu Super Mario ♫
14:41
♫ [unclearneclar] boxescutii [unclearneclar] hipşold hophamei
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♫ cu tobe si hip-hop ♫
14:45
CLCL: So again, it's an incredibleincredibil thing that's takingluare placeloc.
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CL: Din nou, are loc un fenomen incredibil.
14:47
It's doing something that, neurologicallyneurologic, is remarkableremarcabil.
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Neurologic, el face ceva absolut remarcabil.
14:49
WhetherDacă or not you like the musicmuzică is irrelevantirelevant.
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Daca va place sau nu muzica este irelevant.
14:51
CreativelyCreativ speakingvorbitor, it's just a phenomenalfenomenal thing.
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Dar creativ vorbind, e un lucru fenomenal.
14:53
This is a shortmic de statura videovideo of how we actuallyde fapt do this in a scannerscaner.
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Iata o scurta inregistrare despre cum adaptam asta in RMN .
14:56
(LaughterRâs)
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(Rasete)
14:59
(VideoPagina) CLCL: We're here with EmmanuelEmmanuel.
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(Clip) CL: Suntem aici cu Emmanuel.
15:01
CLCL: That was recordedînregistrate in the scannerscaner, by the way.
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Apropo, asta a fost inregistrat in scaner.
15:03
(VideoPagina) CLCL: That's EmmanuelEmmanuel in the scannerscaner.
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(Clip) CL: Acela-i Emmanuel in scanerul RMN.
15:06
He's just memorizedmemorat a rhymerimă for us.
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Tocmai a memorat o rima pentru noi.
15:12
EmmanuelEmmanuel: ♫ TopTop of the beatbate with no repeatrepeta
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♫ In fruntea masurilor fara repetare ♫
15:15
RhythmRitm and rhymerimă make me completecomplet
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♫ Ritmul si rima ma completeaza ♫
15:18
ClimbUrca is sublimesublim when I'm on the micMic
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♫ Ascensiunea e usoara cand sunt la microfon "
15:21
Spittin'Spittin' rhymesrime that'llcare va hitlovit you like a lightningfulger strikegrevă
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♫ Scuipand rime ce lovesc ca un fulger ♫
15:23
♫ I searchcăutare for the truthadevăr in this eternalveşnică questQuest
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♫ Caut un adevar in aceasta misiune ♫
15:26
♫ I'm passingtrecere on fashionModă; you can see how I'm dressedtăbăcit
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♫ Trec peste moda, vezi cum sunt imbracat ♫
15:29
CLCL: Okay. So I'm going to stop that there. So what do we see in his braincreier?
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CL: Bun. Voi opri aici. Deci, ce vedem la creierul sau?
15:32
Well, this is actuallyde fapt fourpatru rappers'rapperi' brainscreier.
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Pai, astea sunt de fapt creierele a 4 rap-eri.
15:34
And what we see, we do see languagelimba areaszone lightingiluminat up,
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Iar ce vedem sunt zonele de limbaj ce se aprind.
15:36
but then -- eyesochi closedînchis --
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dar apoi -- cu ochii inchisi --
15:38
when you are free-stylingcoafat gratis versusimpotriva memorizingmemorarea,
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cand se canta liber nu din memorie
15:41
you've got majormajor visualvizual areaszone lightingiluminat up.
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se aprind zone majore ce tin de vedere.
15:43
You've got majormajor cerebellarcerebeloasa activityactivitate, whichcare is involvedimplicat in motormotor coordinationcoordonare.
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Activitate cerebrala majora implicata in coordonarea motorie.
15:46
You have heightenedsporit braincreier activityactivitate when you're doing a comparablecomparabil tasksarcină,
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Activitatea cerebrala se intensifica daca faceti o treaba similara,
15:49
when that one tasksarcină is creativecreator and the other tasksarcină is memorizedmemorat.
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cand un procas e creativ iar cealalt e memorat.
15:53
It's very preliminarypreliminar, but I think it's kinddrăguț of coolmisto.
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E studiu preliminar, dar cred ca e chiar fain.
15:55
So just to concludeîncheia, we'vene-am got a lot of questionsîntrebări to askcere,
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Deci doar pentru a trage concluzii, avem de raspuns la multe intrebari.
15:58
and like I said, we'llbine askcere questionsîntrebări here, not answerRăspuns them.
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Si cum am spus, vom pune intrebari, nu vom da raspunsuri.
16:01
But we want to get at the rootrădăcină of what is creativecreator geniusgeniu, neurologicallyneurologic,
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Dar, neurologic, vrem sa ajungem la radacinile geniului creativ.
16:04
and I think, with these methodsmetode, we're gettingobtinerea closeînchide to beingfiind there.
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Si cred, cu aceste metode, ne apropiem.
16:07
And I think hopefullyin speranta in the nextUrmător → 10, 20 yearsani
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Sper cu toata nadejdea ca in urmatorii 10, 20 de ani
16:09
you'llveți actuallyde fapt see realreal, meaningfulplin de înțeles studiesstudiu
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vom vedea cu adevarat, studii semnificative
16:11
that say scienceştiinţă has to catchcaptură up to artartă,
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ce vor arata ca stiinta trebuie sa prinda din urma arta,
16:15
and maybe we're startingpornire now to get there.
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si poate acum pornim la drum sa ajungem acolo.
16:17
And so I want to thank you for your time. I appreciatea aprecia it.
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Deci va multumesc pentru timpul acordat. Cu recunostinta.
16:19
(ApplauseAplauze)
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(Aplauze)
Translated by Alexandru Marasescu
Reviewed by Ariana Bleau Lugo

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Charles Limb - Researcher
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain.

Why you should listen

Charles Limb is the Francis A. Sooy, MD Professor and Chief of Otology/Neurotology and Skull Base Surgery at the University of California, San Francisco, and he's a Faculty Member at the Peabody Conservatory of Music. He combines his two passions to study the way the brain creates and perceives music. He's a hearing specialist and surgeon at Johns Hopkins who performs cochlear implantations on patients who have lost their hearing. And he plays sax, piano and bass.

In search of a better understanding of how the mind perceives complex auditory stimuli such as music, he's been working with Allen Braun to look at the brains of improvising musicians and study what parts of the brain are involved in the kind of deep creativity that happens when a musician is really in the groove.

Read our Q&A about hip-hop studies with Charles Limb on the TED Blog >>

Plus our quick catchup Q&A at TEDMED 2011 -- including his top 5 songs of all time >>

Read the 2014 paper "Neural Substrates of Interactive Musical Improvisation: An fMRI Study of ‘Trading Fours’ in Jazz" >>

More profile about the speaker
Charles Limb | Speaker | TED.com