TED2015
Esther Perel: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved
Ester Perel (Esther Perel): Novi pogled na preljubu... govor za sve koji su ikada voleli
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Neverstvo je krajnji oblik izdaje. Ali mora li tako da bude? Terapeut za veze, Ester Perel, istražuje zašto ljudi varaju i razotkriva nam zašto su afere tako traumatične: jer prete našoj emotivnoj sigurnosti. U neverstvu ona vidi nešto neočekivano - izraz žudnje i gubitka. Govor koji moraju da pogledaju svi koji su ikada varali ili bili prevareni, ili prosto svi oni koji traže novi okvir za razumevanje ljubavne veze.
Esther Perel - Relationship therapist
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Why do we cheat?
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Zašto varamo?
00:16
And why do happy people cheat?
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I zašto srećni ljudi varaju?
00:20
And when we say "infidelity,"
what exactly do we mean?
what exactly do we mean?
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I kada kažemo "neverstvo",
na šta tačno mislimo?
na šta tačno mislimo?
00:26
Is it a hookup, a love story,
paid sex, a chat room,
paid sex, a chat room,
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Da li je to šema, ljubavna priča,
plaćeni seks, soba za čet,
plaćeni seks, soba za čet,
00:32
a massage with a happy ending?
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masaža sa srećnim krajem?
00:36
Why do we think that men cheat
out of boredom and fear of intimacy,
out of boredom and fear of intimacy,
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Zašto mislimo da muškarci varaju
iz dosade i straha od prisnosti,
iz dosade i straha od prisnosti,
00:41
but women cheat out of loneliness
and hunger for intimacy?
and hunger for intimacy?
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a da žene varaju zbog usamljenosti
i žudnje za prisnošću?
i žudnje za prisnošću?
00:47
And is an affair always
the end of a relationship?
the end of a relationship?
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I da li je afera uvek kraj jedne veze?
00:53
For the past 10 years,
I have traveled the globe
I have traveled the globe
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Poslednjih 10 godina sam putovala svetom
00:56
and worked extensively
with hundreds of couples
with hundreds of couples
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i mnogo sam radila sa stotinama parova
00:59
who have been shattered by infidelity.
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koje je preljuba razorila.
01:02
There is one simple act of transgression
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Postoji jedan prost prestup
01:06
that can rob a couple
of their relationship,
of their relationship,
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koji može da liši par njihove veze,
01:11
their happiness and their
very identity: an affair.
very identity: an affair.
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njihove sreće i njihovog
ličnog identiteta: afera.
ličnog identiteta: afera.
01:15
And yet, this extremely common
act is so poorly understood.
act is so poorly understood.
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Pa ipak, ovaj izuzetno uobičajen čin
je tako loše shvaćen.
je tako loše shvaćen.
01:22
So this talk is for anyone
who has ever loved.
who has ever loved.
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Dakle, ovaj govor je za sve
koji su ikada voleli.
koji su ikada voleli.
01:29
Adultery has existed
since marriage was invented,
since marriage was invented,
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Preljuba postoji otkad je brak izmišljen,
01:33
and so, too, the taboo against it.
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kao i tabu u vezi s njom.
01:37
In fact, infidelity has a tenacity
that marriage can only envy,
that marriage can only envy,
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Zapravo, preljuba ima istrajnost
na kojoj joj brak samo može da zavidi,
na kojoj joj brak samo može da zavidi,
01:42
so much so, that this is
the only commandment
the only commandment
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u tolikoj meri, da je to jedina zapovest
01:46
that is repeated twice in the Bible:
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koja je dva puta ponovljena u Bibliji:
01:50
once for doing it, and once
just for thinking about it.
just for thinking about it.
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jednom za čin preljube,
drugi put za puko razmišljanje o njoj.
drugi put za puko razmišljanje o njoj.
01:54
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
01:56
So how do we reconcile
what is universally forbidden,
what is universally forbidden,
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Pa kako da pomirimo
nešto što je univerzalno zabranjeno,
nešto što je univerzalno zabranjeno,
02:00
yet universally practiced?
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a ipak se univerzalno upražnjava?
02:05
Now, throughout history, men
practically had a license to cheat
practically had a license to cheat
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Sad, kroz istoriju, muškarci
su praktično imali dozvolu da varaju,
su praktično imali dozvolu da varaju,
02:10
with little consequence,
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s malim posledicama
02:12
and supported by a host
of biological and evolutionary theories
of biological and evolutionary theories
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i imali su podršku od zagovornika
bioloških i evolutivnih teorija
bioloških i evolutivnih teorija
02:16
that justified their need to roam,
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koje su opravdavale
njihovu potrebu za lutanjem,
njihovu potrebu za lutanjem,
02:19
so the double standard
is as old as adultery itself.
is as old as adultery itself.
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pa su dvostruki standardi
stari koliko i sama preljuba.
stari koliko i sama preljuba.
02:24
But who knows what's really going on
under the sheets there, right?
under the sheets there, right?
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Ali ko zna šta se stvarno dešava
ispod jorgana, zar ne?
ispod jorgana, zar ne?
02:29
Because when it comes to sex,
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Jer kada se radi o seksu,
02:31
the pressure for men
is to boast and to exaggerate,
is to boast and to exaggerate,
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na muškarce se vrši pritisak
da se hvale i preteruju,
da se hvale i preteruju,
02:35
but the pressure for women
is to hide, minimize and deny,
is to hide, minimize and deny,
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ali na žene se vrši pritisak
da prikrivaju, umanjuju i poriču,
da prikrivaju, umanjuju i poriču,
02:41
which isn't surprising when you consider
that there are still nine countries
that there are still nine countries
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što nije čudno kada shvatite
da još uvek postoji devet država
da još uvek postoji devet država
02:45
where women can be killed for straying.
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u kojima žena može
da bude ubijena zbog bluda.
da bude ubijena zbog bluda.
02:49
Now, monogamy used to be
one person for life.
one person for life.
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Sad, monogamija je nekada značila
biti s jednom osobom do kraja života.
biti s jednom osobom do kraja života.
02:54
Today, monogamy is one person at a time.
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Danas monogamija znači
biti sa jednom po jednom osobom.
biti sa jednom po jednom osobom.
02:58
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
03:00
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
03:04
I mean, many of you probably have said,
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Mislim, mnogi od vas su verovatno rekli:
03:06
"I am monogamous in all my relationships."
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"Monogaman sam u svim svojim vezama."
03:09
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
03:12
We used to marry,
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Nekada smo se venčavali
03:14
and had sex for the first time.
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i prvi put imali seks.
03:16
But now we marry,
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Ali sada se venčavamo
03:18
and we stop having sex with others.
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i prestajemo da imamo seks s drugima.
03:21
The fact is that monogamy
had nothing to do with love.
had nothing to do with love.
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Činjenica je da monogamija
nije imala nikakve veze s ljubavlju.
nije imala nikakve veze s ljubavlju.
03:26
Men relied on women's fidelity
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Muškarci su se oslanjali na vernost žene
03:28
in order to know whose children these are,
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kako bi znali čija su deca
03:31
and who gets the cows when I die.
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i ko će da nasledi krave kada umru.
03:36
Now, everyone wants to know
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Sad, svi žele da znaju
03:38
what percentage of people cheat.
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koliki procenat ljudi vara.
03:40
I've been asked that question
since I arrived at this conference.
since I arrived at this conference.
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Postavljaju mi to pitanje
otkad sam stigla na ovu konferenciju.
otkad sam stigla na ovu konferenciju.
03:43
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
03:46
It applies to you.
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To se odnosi na vas.
03:48
But the definition of infidelity
keeps on expanding:
keeps on expanding:
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Ali definicija prevare
nastavlja da se širi:
nastavlja da se širi:
03:52
sexting, watching porn, staying
secretly active on dating apps.
secretly active on dating apps.
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seksualne poruke, pornografija, korišćenje
aplikacija za traženje partnera.
aplikacija za traženje partnera.
03:58
So because there is no
universally agreed-upon definition
universally agreed-upon definition
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Pa kako nema univerzalno
prihvaćene definicije
prihvaćene definicije
04:02
of what even constitutes an infidelity,
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za to šta se uopšte smatra neverstvom,
04:05
estimates vary widely,
from 26 percent to 75 percent.
from 26 percent to 75 percent.
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procene izuzetno variraju, od 26% do 75%.
04:12
But on top of it, we are
walking contradictions.
walking contradictions.
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Povrh svega toga,
mi smo hodajuće protivrečnosti.
mi smo hodajuće protivrečnosti.
04:16
So 95 percent of us will say
that it is terribly wrong
that it is terribly wrong
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Pa će 95 procenata nas reći
da bi bilo užasno pogrešno
da bi bilo užasno pogrešno
04:19
for our partner to lie
about having an affair,
about having an affair,
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kad bi partner od nas skrivao aferu,
04:22
but just about the same
amount of us will say
amount of us will say
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ali otprilike isti procenat nas će reći
04:25
that that's exactly what we
would do if we were having one.
would do if we were having one.
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da bismo upravo to uradili
kad bismo imali aferu.
kad bismo imali aferu.
04:28
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
04:31
Now, I like this definition
of an affair --
of an affair --
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Sviđa mi se sledeća definicija afere -
04:35
it brings together the three key elements:
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spaja tri ključna elementa:
04:39
a secretive relationship,
which is the core structure of an affair;
which is the core structure of an affair;
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vezu u tajnosti, koja je u srži afere,
04:45
an emotional connection
to one degree or another;
to one degree or another;
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emotivnu povezanost,
u većoj ili manjoj meri;
u većoj ili manjoj meri;
04:49
and a sexual alchemy.
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i seksualnu alhemiju.
04:52
And alchemy is the key word here,
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A alhemija je ključna reč ovde,
04:55
because the erotic frisson is such that
the kiss that you only imagine giving,
the kiss that you only imagine giving,
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jer je erotski naboj takav da poljubac
koji samo zamišljate da dajete
koji samo zamišljate da dajete
05:02
can be as powerful and as enchanting
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može da bude podjednako
snažan i očaravajući
snažan i očaravajući
05:05
as hours of actual lovemaking.
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kao i sati stvarnog vođenja ljubavi.
05:09
As Marcel Proust said,
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Kako je Marsel Prust rekao:
05:11
it's our imagination that is responsible
for love, not the other person.
for love, not the other person.
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naša mašta je odgovorna za ljubav,
ne druga osoba.
ne druga osoba.
05:17
So it's never been easier to cheat,
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Nikada nije bilo lakše varati,
05:21
and it's never been more
difficult to keep a secret.
difficult to keep a secret.
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i nikada nije bilo teže čuvati tajnu.
05:25
And never has infidelity exacted
such a psychological toll.
such a psychological toll.
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I nikada pre preljuba nije zahtevala
tako visoku psihološku dažbinu.
tako visoku psihološku dažbinu.
05:31
When marriage was an economic enterprise,
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Kada je brak bio ekonomsko preduzeće,
05:35
infidelity threatened
our economic security.
our economic security.
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preljuba je pretila
našoj ekonomskoj sigurnosti.
našoj ekonomskoj sigurnosti.
05:39
But now that marriage
is a romantic arrangement,
is a romantic arrangement,
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Ali sada kada je brak romantični dogovor,
05:41
infidelity threatens
our emotional security.
our emotional security.
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preljuba preti našoj emotivnoj sigurnosti.
05:45
Ironically, we used to turn to adultery --
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Ironično, nekada smo se
okretali preljubi -
okretali preljubi -
05:50
that was the space where
we sought pure love.
we sought pure love.
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to je bio prostor na kom smo
tražili čistu ljubav.
tražili čistu ljubav.
05:53
But now that we seek love in marriage,
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Ali sada kada tražimo ljubav u braku,
05:55
adultery destroys it.
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preljuba ga razara.
05:58
Now, there are three ways that I think
infidelity hurts differently today.
infidelity hurts differently today.
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Mislim da postoje tri načina na koja
nas preljuba danas drugačije povređuje.
nas preljuba danas drugačije povređuje.
06:05
We have a romantic ideal
in which we turn to one person
in which we turn to one person
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Imamo romantični ideal
zbog koga se okrećemo jednoj osobi
zbog koga se okrećemo jednoj osobi
06:11
to fulfill an endless list of needs:
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da ispuni beskrajnu listu potreba:
06:14
to be my greatest lover, my best friend,
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da bude moj najbolji ljubavnik,
moj najbolji prijatelj,
moj najbolji prijatelj,
06:18
the best parent, my trusted confidant,
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najbolji roditelj, moj pouzdani oslonac,
06:21
my emotional companion,
my intellectual equal.
my intellectual equal.
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moj emotivni drug, moj intelektualni par.
06:25
And I am it: I'm chosen, I'm unique,
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I ja sam ta: ja sam izabrana,
jedinstvena sam,
jedinstvena sam,
06:29
I'm indispensable, I'm irreplaceable,
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neophodna sam, nezamenjiva sam,
06:33
I'm the one.
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ja sam ta.
06:35
And infidelity tells me I'm not.
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A preljuba mi kaže da nisam.
06:39
It is the ultimate betrayal.
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To je krajnji oblik izdaje.
06:41
Infidelity shatters
the grand ambition of love.
the grand ambition of love.
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Preljuba razara
veličanstvenu ambiciju ljubavi.
veličanstvenu ambiciju ljubavi.
06:46
But if throughout history,
infidelity has always been painful,
infidelity has always been painful,
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Ali ako je kroz istoriju,
preljuba oduvek bila bolna,
preljuba oduvek bila bolna,
06:51
today it is often traumatic,
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danas je ona često traumatična
06:53
because it threatens our sense of self.
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jer preti našem shvatanju sebe.
06:57
So my patient Fernando, he's plagued.
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Moj pacijent Fernando, koji je očajan,
06:59
He goes on: "I thought I knew my life.
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raspreda: "Mislio sam
da poznajem svoj život.
da poznajem svoj život.
07:02
I thought I knew who you were,
who we were as a couple, who I was.
who we were as a couple, who I was.
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Mislio sam da te poznajem,
da znam ko smo mi kao par, to ko sam ja.
da znam ko smo mi kao par, to ko sam ja.
07:06
Now, I question everything."
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Sad sve dovodim u pitanje."
07:09
Infidelity -- a violation of trust,
a crisis of identity.
a crisis of identity.
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Preljuba - povreda poverenja,
kriza identiteta.
kriza identiteta.
07:14
"Can I ever trust you again?" he asks.
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"Hoću li ikada moći da ti
verujem ponovo", pita.
verujem ponovo", pita.
07:17
"Can I ever trust anyone again?"
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"Hoću li moći ikome ponovo da verujem?"
07:20
And this is also what my patient
Heather is telling me,
Heather is telling me,
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A to mi i moja pacijentkinja Heder govori,
07:23
when she's talking to me
about her story with Nick.
about her story with Nick.
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kada mi priča svoju priču s Nikom.
07:26
Married, two kids.
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Udata, ima dvoje dece.
07:27
Nick just left on a business trip,
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Nik je upravo otišao na poslovni put,
07:30
and Heather is playing
on his iPad with the boys,
on his iPad with the boys,
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a Heder se sa dečacima
igra na njegovom iPad-u,
igra na njegovom iPad-u,
07:34
when she sees a message
appear on the screen:
appear on the screen:
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kada vidi poruku
koja se pojavljuje na ekranu:
koja se pojavljuje na ekranu:
07:37
"Can't wait to see you."
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"Jedva čekam da te vidim."
07:39
Strange, she thinks,
we just saw each other.
we just saw each other.
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Čudno, misli, upravo smo se videli.
07:42
And then another message:
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A potom stiže druga poruka:
07:44
"Can't wait to hold you in my arms."
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"Jedva čekam da te zagrlim."
07:47
And Heather realizes
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I Heder shvata
07:50
these are not for her.
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da ove poruke nisu za nju.
07:52
She also tells me
that her father had affairs,
that her father had affairs,
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Takođe mi kaže da je njen otac imao afere,
07:55
but her mother, she found
one little receipt in the pocket,
one little receipt in the pocket,
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ali njena majka je pronašla
malenu priznanicu u džepu
malenu priznanicu u džepu
07:59
and a little bit of lipstick
on the collar.
on the collar.
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i malo karmina na kragni.
08:03
Heather, she goes digging,
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Heder kreće u potragu
08:06
and she finds hundreds of messages,
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i pronalazi na stotine poruka
08:09
and photos exchanged
and desires expressed.
and desires expressed.
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i razmenjenih fotografija
i izraženih žudnji.
i izraženih žudnji.
08:13
The vivid details
of Nick's two-year affair
of Nick's two-year affair
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Živopisni detalji
o Nikovoj dvogodišnjoj aferi
o Nikovoj dvogodišnjoj aferi
08:16
unfold in front of her in real time,
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pred očima joj se razvijaju
u realnom vremenu.
u realnom vremenu.
08:19
And it made me think:
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Zbog toga sam pomislila:
08:21
Affairs in the digital age
are death by a thousand cuts.
are death by a thousand cuts.
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afere u digitalnom dobu
su smrti od hiljadu uboda.
su smrti od hiljadu uboda.
08:27
But then we have another paradox
that we're dealing with these days.
that we're dealing with these days.
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No tu imamo još jedan paradoks
s kojim se borimo ovih dana.
s kojim se borimo ovih dana.
08:31
Because of this romantic ideal,
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Zbog ovog romantičnog ideala,
08:33
we are relying on our partner's
fidelity with a unique fervor.
fidelity with a unique fervor.
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oslanjamo se na vernost svog partnera
s jedinstvenim zanosom.
s jedinstvenim zanosom.
08:38
But we also have never
been more inclined to stray,
been more inclined to stray,
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Ali takođe nikada nismo
bili ovako skloni šaranju,
bili ovako skloni šaranju,
08:42
and not because we have new desires today,
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ne zato što sada imamo nove žudnje,
08:45
but because we live in an era
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već zato što živimo u dobu
08:47
where we feel that we are
entitled to pursue our desires,
entitled to pursue our desires,
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u kome osećamo da imamo pravo
da jurimo za svojim žudnjama,
da jurimo za svojim žudnjama,
08:50
because this is the culture
where I deserve to be happy.
where I deserve to be happy.
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jer ovo je kultura u kojoj zaslužujemo
da budemo srećni.
da budemo srećni.
08:55
And if we used to divorce
because we were unhappy,
because we were unhappy,
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I ako smo se nekada razvodili
jer nismo bili srećni,
jer nismo bili srećni,
08:59
today we divorce
because we could be happier.
because we could be happier.
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danas se razvodimo
jer bismo mogli da budemo srećniji.
jer bismo mogli da budemo srećniji.
09:03
And if divorce carried all the shame,
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I ako je uz razvod išao sav sram,
09:06
today, choosing to stay when you can leave
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danas odluka da ostanete,
ako možete da odete
ako možete da odete
09:10
is the new shame.
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je novi sram.
09:12
So Heather, she can't talk to her friends
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Pa Heder ne može
da razgovara s prijateljima
da razgovara s prijateljima
09:15
because she's afraid that they
will judge her for still loving Nick,
will judge her for still loving Nick,
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jer bi je mogli osuđivati
zbog toga što još uvek voli Nika
zbog toga što još uvek voli Nika
09:18
and everywhere she turns,
she gets the same advice:
she gets the same advice:
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i kome god da se obrati,
dobija isti savet:
dobija isti savet:
09:21
Leave him. Throw the dog on the curb.
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napusti ga. Reši se jada.
09:25
And if the situation were reversed,
Nick would be in the same situation.
Nick would be in the same situation.
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A da je situacija obrnuta,
Nik bi bio u istoj situaciji.
Nik bi bio u istoj situaciji.
09:31
Staying is the new shame.
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Ostajanje je novi sram.
09:35
So if we can divorce,
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Pa, ako možemo da se razvedemo,
09:38
why do we still have affairs?
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zašto i dalje imamo afere?
09:41
Now, the typical assumption
is that if someone cheats,
is that if someone cheats,
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E sad, tipična pretpostavka je
da ako neko vara,
da ako neko vara,
09:46
either there's something wrong
in your relationship or wrong with you.
in your relationship or wrong with you.
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ili nešto nije u redu s vašom vezom
ili nešto nije u redu s vama.
ili nešto nije u redu s vama.
09:51
But millions of people
can't all be pathological.
can't all be pathological.
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Ali ne mogu svi ti milioni ljudi
da budu patološki slučajevi.
da budu patološki slučajevi.
09:56
The logic goes like this: If you
have everything you need at home,
have everything you need at home,
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Logika je ovakava: ako imaš
sve što ti je potrebno kod kuće,
sve što ti je potrebno kod kuće,
10:00
then there is no need
to go looking elsewhere,
to go looking elsewhere,
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onda nema potrebe da tražiš dalje,
10:03
assuming that there is such
a thing as a perfect marriage
a thing as a perfect marriage
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pod pretpostavkom da postoji
takvo nešto kao savršen brak
takvo nešto kao savršen brak
10:07
that will inoculate us against wanderlust.
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što bi nas zaštitilo od želje za lutanjem.
10:11
But what if passion
has a finite shelf life?
has a finite shelf life?
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Ali šta ako strast ima
ograničen rok trajanja?
ograničen rok trajanja?
10:15
What if there are things
that even a good relationship
that even a good relationship
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Šta ako postoje stvari
koje čak ni dobra veza
koje čak ni dobra veza
10:19
can never provide?
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nije u stanju da pruži?
10:22
If even happy people cheat,
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Ako čak i srećni ljudi varaju,
10:25
what is it about?
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o čemu se tu radi?
10:28
The vast majority of people
that I actually work with
that I actually work with
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Ogromna većina ljudi
sa kojima zapravo radim
sa kojima zapravo radim
10:31
are not at all chronic philanderers.
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nisu uopšte hronični švaleri.
10:34
They are often people who are
deeply monogamous in their beliefs,
deeply monogamous in their beliefs,
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To su često ljudi koji su
veoma monogamni u svojim ubeđenjima,
veoma monogamni u svojim ubeđenjima,
10:38
and at least for their partner.
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bar za svog partnera.
10:40
But they find themselves in a conflict
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Ali zateknu se u konfliktu
10:43
between their values and their behavior.
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između svojih vrednosti i svog ponašanja.
10:47
They often are people who have
actually been faithful for decades,
actually been faithful for decades,
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To su često ljudi koji su
zapravo decenijama bili verni,
zapravo decenijama bili verni,
10:51
but one day they cross a line
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ali jednoga dana su prešli crtu,
10:54
that they never thought they would cross,
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koju nikada nisu mislil preći,
10:57
and at the risk of losing everything.
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čak i po ceni gubitka svega.
11:00
But for a glimmer of what?
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Ali za iskru čega?
11:03
Affairs are an act of betrayal,
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Afere su činovi izdaje,
11:06
and they are also an expression
of longing and loss.
of longing and loss.
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ali su takođe i izrazi žudnje i gubitka.
11:10
At the heart of an affair,
you will often find
you will often find
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U srži afere ćete često naći
11:14
a longing and a yearning
for an emotional connection,
for an emotional connection,
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žudnju i čežnju
za emotivnom povezanošću,
za emotivnom povezanošću,
11:18
for novelty, for freedom,
for autonomy, for sexual intensity,
for autonomy, for sexual intensity,
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za novinom, za slobodom,
za autonomijom, za seksualnim nabojem,
za autonomijom, za seksualnim nabojem,
11:24
a wish to recapture
lost parts of ourselves
lost parts of ourselves
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želju da se ponovo zgrabe
izgubljeni delovi nas samih
izgubljeni delovi nas samih
11:28
or an attempt to bring back
vitality in the face of loss and tragedy.
vitality in the face of loss and tragedy.
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ili pokušaj da se vrati životnost
kada se suočimo s gubitkom i tragedijom.
kada se suočimo s gubitkom i tragedijom.
11:34
I'm thinking about
another patient of mine, Priya,
another patient of mine, Priya,
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Sećam se još jednog mog pacijenta, Prije,
11:37
who is blissfully married,
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koja je srećno udata,
11:40
loves her husband,
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voli svog supruga
11:41
and would never want to hurt the man.
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i nikada ga ne bi povredila.
11:44
But she also tells me
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Ali mi takođe kaže
11:46
that she's always done
what was expected of her:
what was expected of her:
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da je oduvek radila
ono što se od nje očekuje:
ono što se od nje očekuje:
11:50
good girl, good wife, good mother,
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bila je dobra devojka,
dobra supruga, dobra majka,
dobra supruga, dobra majka,
11:53
taking care of her immigrant parents.
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brinula je za svoje roditelje imigrante.
11:56
Priya, she fell for the arborist
who removed the tree from her yard
who removed the tree from her yard
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Prija je pala na arboristu
koji je uklanjao drvo iz njenog dvorišta
koji je uklanjao drvo iz njenog dvorišta
12:01
after Hurricane Sandy.
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nakon uragana Sendi.
12:03
And with his truck and his tattoos,
he's quite the opposite of her.
he's quite the opposite of her.
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I s njegovim kamionom i tetovažama,
prilično je različit od nje.
prilično je različit od nje.
12:09
But at 47, Priya's affair is about
the adolescence that she never had.
the adolescence that she never had.
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Ali za 47-ogodišnju Priju ova afera
je adolescencija koju nikada nije imala.
je adolescencija koju nikada nije imala.
12:15
And her story highlights for me
that when we seek the gaze of another,
that when we seek the gaze of another,
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I njena priča mi daje do znanja
da kada tražimo tuđi zaljubljen pogled,
da kada tražimo tuđi zaljubljen pogled,
12:21
it isn't always our partner
that we are turning away from,
that we are turning away from,
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ne okrećemo uvek leđa našem partneru,
12:25
but the person that
we have ourselves become.
we have ourselves become.
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2837
već osobi koja smo postali.
12:29
And it isn't so much that we're
looking for another person,
looking for another person,
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I ne radi se toliko
o traženju druge osobe,
o traženju druge osobe,
12:33
as much as we are
looking for another self.
looking for another self.
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koliko se radi o traganju za drugim nama.
12:39
Now, all over the world,
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E sad, širom sveta,
12:40
there is one word that people
who have affairs always tell me.
who have affairs always tell me.
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postoji jedna reč koju mi ljudi
koji imaju afere uvek kažu.
koji imaju afere uvek kažu.
12:45
They feel alive.
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Osećaju se živima.
12:48
And they often will tell me
stories of recent losses --
stories of recent losses --
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I često mi ispričaju priče
o skorašnjim gubicima -
o skorašnjim gubicima -
12:52
of a parent who died,
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1855
o roditelju koji je umro,
12:54
and a friend that went too soon,
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2200
prijatelju koji je prerano preminuo
12:56
and bad news at the doctor.
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i o lošim vestima od doktora.
12:59
Death and mortality often live
in the shadow of an affair,
in the shadow of an affair,
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Smrt i smrtnost često žive u senci afere
13:04
because they raise these questions.
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jer povlače sledeća pitanja:
13:06
Is this it? Is there more?
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2904
je li to sve? Postoji li nešto više?
13:09
Am I going on for another
25 years like this?
25 years like this?
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Hoću li i narednih 25 godina
provesti ovako?
provesti ovako?
13:13
Will I ever feel that thing again?
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Hoću li ikada više osetiti ono nešto?
13:18
And it has led me to think
that perhaps these questions
that perhaps these questions
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I to me je navelo na razmišljanje,
da možda ova pitanja
da možda ova pitanja
13:22
are the ones that propel
people to cross the line,
people to cross the line,
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pokreću ljude da pređu crtu,
13:25
and that some affairs are
an attempt to beat back deadness,
an attempt to beat back deadness,
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i da su neke afere pokušaji
da se odagna smrtnost,
da se odagna smrtnost,
13:29
in an antidote to death.
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protivotrovi za smrt.
13:33
And contrary to what you may think,
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I nasuprot vašem mišljenju,
13:36
affairs are way less about sex,
and a lot more about desire:
and a lot more about desire:
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5036
kod afera nije toliko važan seks,
koliko je važna žudnja:
koliko je važna žudnja:
13:41
desire for attention,
desire to feel special,
desire to feel special,
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3489
žudnja za pažnjom,
žudnja da se osećamo posebnim,
žudnja da se osećamo posebnim,
13:45
desire to feel important.
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1916
žudnja da se osećamo bitnima.
13:48
And the very structure of an affair,
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3010
A sama struktura afere,
13:51
the fact that you can
never have your lover,
never have your lover,
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činjenica da ljubavnik
nikada neće biti vaš,
nikada neće biti vaš,
13:53
keeps you wanting.
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1435
održava vašu čežnju.
13:54
That in itself is a desire machine,
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To je samo po sebi mašinerija žudnje
13:57
because the incompleteness, the ambiguity,
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825959
2788
jer nedorečenost, dvosmislenost,
14:00
keeps you wanting
that which you can't have.
that which you can't have.
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2775
vas nagone da čeznete
za onim što ne možete da imate.
za onim što ne možete da imate.
14:05
Now some of you probably think
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1536
Neki od vas verovatno misle
14:07
that affairs don't happen
in open relationships,
in open relationships,
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3630
da se afere ne dešavaju
u vezama otvorenog tipa,
u vezama otvorenog tipa,
14:10
but they do.
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ali se dešavaju.
14:12
First of all, the conversation
about monogamy is not the same
about monogamy is not the same
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Pre svega, razgovor o monogamiji
nije isto što i razgovor o neverstvu.
nije isto što i razgovor o neverstvu.
14:15
as the conversation about infidelity.
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2181
14:18
But the fact is that it seems
that even when we have
that even when we have
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Ali činjenica je da se čini
da čak i kada smo slobodni
da čak i kada smo slobodni
14:21
the freedom to have other sexual partners,
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da imamo druge seksualne partnere,
14:24
we still seem to be lured
by the power of the forbidden,
by the power of the forbidden,
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4088
nas i dalje privlači snaga zabranjenog,
14:28
that if we do that which
we are not supposed to do,
we are not supposed to do,
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3487
da kada uradimo ono što ne bi trebalo,
14:32
then we feel like we are really
doing what we want to.
doing what we want to.
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2799
tada se osećamo kao da zaista
radimo ono što želimo.
radimo ono što želimo.
14:37
And I've also told
quite a few of my patients
quite a few of my patients
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3604
I ja sam takođe rekla
popriličnom broju mojih pacijenata
popriličnom broju mojih pacijenata
14:40
that if they could bring
into their relationships
into their relationships
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4601
da kada bi mogli da unesu u svoju vezu
14:45
one tenth of the boldness,
the imagination and the verve
the imagination and the verve
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3631
jednu desetinu odvažnosti,
maštovitosti i elana
maštovitosti i elana
14:49
that they put into their affairs,
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1712
koje ulažu u svoje afere,
14:50
they probably would never need to see me.
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2245
verovatno nikad ne bi morali
da dolaze kod mene.
da dolaze kod mene.
14:53
(Laughter)
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2000
(Smeh)
14:56
So how do we heal from an affair?
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Dakle, kako se lečimo od afere?
15:00
Desire runs deep.
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1919
Žudnja ostavlja dubok trag.
15:02
Betrayal runs deep.
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1871
Izdaja ostavlja dubok trag.
15:05
But it can be healed.
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1555
Ali ima leka.
15:07
And some affairs are death knells
247
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2921
A neke afere su pogrebna zvona
15:10
for relationships that were
already dying on the vine.
already dying on the vine.
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2738
za vezu koja je već bila
na aparatima za preživljavanje.
na aparatima za preživljavanje.
15:14
But others will jolt us
into new possibilities.
into new possibilities.
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Ali druge će nas otrgnuti
u nove mogućnosti.
u nove mogućnosti.
15:17
The fact is, the majority of couples
250
905953
1983
Činjenica je da većina parova
15:19
who have experienced
affairs stay together.
affairs stay together.
251
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2214
koji su iskusili aferu, ostaju zajedno.
15:22
But some of them will merely survive,
252
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2633
Ali neki od njih će jedva preživeti,
15:25
and others will actually be able
to turn a crisis into an opportunity.
to turn a crisis into an opportunity.
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4704
dok će drugi biti u stanju
da pretvore krizu u priliku.
da pretvore krizu u priliku.
15:30
They'll be able to turn this
into a generative experience.
into a generative experience.
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3643
Biće u stanju da sve to pretvore
u plodotvorno iskustvo.
u plodotvorno iskustvo.
15:34
And I'm actually thinking even
more so for the deceived partner,
more so for the deceived partner,
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3714
I zapravo ovde više mislim
na prevarenog partnera,
na prevarenog partnera,
15:38
who will often say,
256
926222
1336
koji će često da kaže:
15:39
"You think I didn't want more?
257
927558
1807
"Misliš da i ja nisam želela više?
15:41
But I'm not the one who did it."
258
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1842
Ali ja to nisam uradila."
15:43
But now that the affair is exposed,
259
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2142
Ali sada kada je afera razotkrivena,
15:46
they, too, get to claim more,
260
934110
2134
i oni su u prilici da zahtevaju više
15:48
and they no longer have
to uphold the status quo
to uphold the status quo
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2642
i više ne moraju da održavaju status kvo
15:50
that may not have been working
for them that well, either.
for them that well, either.
262
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2914
koji nije naročito odgovarao
ni njima.
ni njima.
15:56
I've noticed that a lot of couples,
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2889
Primetila sam da većina parova,
15:59
in the immediate aftermath of an affair,
264
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2141
odmah nakon saznanja o aferi,
16:01
because of this new disorder
that may actually lead to a new order,
that may actually lead to a new order,
265
949251
4336
zbog svog tog nereda koji bi mogao
da vodi do novog poretka,
da vodi do novog poretka,
16:05
will have depths of conversations
with honesty and openness
with honesty and openness
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3582
imaju duboke razgovore,
s iskrenošću i otvorenošću
s iskrenošću i otvorenošću
16:09
that they haven't had in decades.
267
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1655
kakve nisu imali decenijama.
16:11
And, partners who were
sexually indifferent
sexually indifferent
268
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2937
I partneri koji su bili
nezaintersovani za seks,
nezaintersovani za seks,
16:14
find themselves suddenly
so lustfully voracious,
so lustfully voracious,
269
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2599
iznenada otkriju kod sebe
sladostrasnu proždrljivost
sladostrasnu proždrljivost
16:17
they don't know where it's coming from.
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2535
za koju ne znaju odakle im.
16:20
Something about the fear
of loss will rekindle desire,
of loss will rekindle desire,
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Nešto u strahu od gubitka
ponovo budi žudnju
ponovo budi žudnju
16:24
and make way for an entirely
new kind of truth.
new kind of truth.
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i krči put za potpuno novi tip iskrenosti.
16:30
So when an affair is exposed,
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Dakle, kada je afera razotkrivena,
16:33
what are some of the specific things
that couples can do?
that couples can do?
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koji su to koraci koje
parovi mogu da preduzmu?
parovi mogu da preduzmu?
16:38
We know from trauma that healing begins
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Znamo da kod traume izlečenje počinje
16:42
when the perpetrator
acknowledges their wrongdoing.
acknowledges their wrongdoing.
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kada počinilac prizna svoje nedelo.
16:47
So for the partner who had the affair,
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Zato, partner koji je imao aferu,
16:51
for Nick,
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Nik,
16:52
one thing is to end the affair,
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prvenstveno, mora da okonča aferu,
16:54
but the other is the essential,
important act of expressing
important act of expressing
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ali drugo je krucijalno,
važan je čin izražavanja
važan je čin izražavanja
16:59
guilt and remorse for hurting his wife.
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krivice i kajanja zbog toga
što je povredio suprugu.
što je povredio suprugu.
17:02
But the truth is
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Ali istina je
17:04
that I have noticed that quite a lot
of people who have affairs
of people who have affairs
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da sam primetila da popriličan broj
ljudi koji imaju afere
ljudi koji imaju afere
17:07
may feel terribly guilty
for hurting their partner,
for hurting their partner,
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možda osećaju užasnu krivicu
zbog toga što su povredili partnera,
zbog toga što su povredili partnera,
17:10
but they don't feel guilty
for the experience of the affair itself.
for the experience of the affair itself.
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ali ne osećaju krivicu
zbog iskustva same afere.
zbog iskustva same afere.
17:14
And that distinction is important.
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A ta razlika je veoma bitna.
17:17
And Nick, he needs to hold
vigil for the relationship.
vigil for the relationship.
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Nik mora da bdi nad vezom.
17:21
He needs to become, for a while,
the protector of the boundaries.
the protector of the boundaries.
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Mora, na kratko, da postane
zaštitnik ograničenja.
zaštitnik ograničenja.
17:24
It's his responsibility to bring it up,
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Na njemu je da vaskrsne vezu,
17:26
because if he thinks about it,
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jer kad razmisli o tome,
17:28
he can relieve Heather from the obsession,
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može da oslobodi Heder od opsesije
17:31
and from having to make sure
that the affair isn't forgotten,
that the affair isn't forgotten,
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i kako se ne bi desilo
da afera bude zaboravljena,
da afera bude zaboravljena,
17:35
and that in itself
begins to restore trust.
begins to restore trust.
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a to samo po sebi vraća poverenje.
17:39
But for Heather,
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Ali za Heder,
17:41
or deceived partners,
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to jest za prevarene partnere,
17:43
it is essential to do things
that bring back a sense of self-worth,
that bring back a sense of self-worth,
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krucijalno je da se bave onim
što im vraća osećanje sopstvene vrednosti,
što im vraća osećanje sopstvene vrednosti,
17:48
to surround oneself with love
and with friends and activities
and with friends and activities
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da se okruže ljubavlju,
prijateljima i aktivnostima
prijateljima i aktivnostima
17:52
that give back joy
and meaning and identity.
and meaning and identity.
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koje im vraćaju užitak
i smisao i identitet.
i smisao i identitet.
17:55
But even more important,
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Ali što je još značajnije,
17:57
is to curb the curiosity
to mine for the sordid details --
to mine for the sordid details --
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da obuzdavaju znatiželju,
da ne kopaju po prljavom vešu -
da ne kopaju po prljavom vešu -
18:02
Where were you? Where did you do it?
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Gde ste bili? Gde ste to radili?
18:04
How often? Is she better
than me in bed? --
than me in bed? --
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Koliko često? Da li je bolja
od mene u krevetu? -
od mene u krevetu? -
18:07
questions that only inflict more pain,
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pitanja koja samo mogu
još više da vas povrede
još više da vas povrede
18:10
and keep you awake at night.
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i da vas drže budnim po noći.
18:12
And instead, switch to what I call
the investigative questions,
the investigative questions,
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Umesto toga, pređite na ono što ja zovem
istraživačkim pitanjima,
istraživačkim pitanjima,
18:17
the ones that mine
the meaning and the motives --
the meaning and the motives --
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ona pitanja koja tragaju
za značenjem i motivima -
za značenjem i motivima -
18:20
What did this affair mean for you?
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šta ti je ova afera značila?
18:23
What were you able to express
or experience there
or experience there
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Šta si bio u stanju da izraziš
ili iskusiš tamo
ili iskusiš tamo
18:25
that you could no longer do with me?
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što više nisi mogao sa mnom?
18:28
What was it like for you
when you came home?
when you came home?
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Kako ti je bilo kad bi se vratio kući?
18:31
What is it about us that you value?
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Šta ceniš kod nas?
18:34
Are you pleased this is over?
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Jesi li zadovoljan jer se sve završilo?
18:38
Every affair will redefine a relationship,
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Svaka afera će nanovo definisati vezu
18:42
and every couple will determine
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i svaki par će da odluči
18:45
what the legacy of the affair will be.
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kakvo će da bude zaveštanje afere.
18:49
But affairs are here to stay,
and they're not going away.
and they're not going away.
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3762
Ali afere su tu i ne idu nikuda.
18:54
And the dilemmas of love and desire,
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A dileme u vezi s ljubavlju i žudnjom,
18:56
they don't yield just simple answers
of black and white and good and bad,
of black and white and good and bad,
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ne daju isključivo proste odgovore
da je sve crno i belo, dobro i loše,
da je sve crno i belo, dobro i loše,
19:02
and victim and perpetrator.
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da imamo žrtvu i prestupnika.
19:06
Betrayal in a relationship
comes in many forms.
comes in many forms.
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Postoje razni vidovi izdaje u vezi.
19:10
There are many ways
that we betray our partner:
that we betray our partner:
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Postoji mnogo načina da se izda partner:
19:12
with contempt, with neglect,
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prezrenjem, zanemarivanjem,
19:14
with indifference, with violence.
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ravnodušnošću, nasiljem.
19:17
Sexual betrayal is only
one way to hurt a partner.
one way to hurt a partner.
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Seksualna izdaja je samo jedan
od načina da se povredi partner.
od načina da se povredi partner.
19:21
In other words, the victim of an affair
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2604
Drugim rečima, žrtva afere
19:24
is not always the victim of the marriage.
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nije uvek žrtva u braku.
19:29
Now, you've listened to me,
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E sad, saslušali ste me,
19:32
and I know what you're thinking:
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i znam šta mislite:
19:34
She has a French accent,
she must be pro-affair.
she must be pro-affair.
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3774
ona ima francuski akcenat,
mora da je zagovornica afera.
mora da je zagovornica afera.
19:38
(Laughter)
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3302
(Smeh)
19:43
So, you're wrong.
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Dakle, grešite.
19:45
I am not French.
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Nisam Francuskinja.
19:47
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
19:50
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
19:53
And I'm not pro-affair.
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I nisam zagovornica afera.
19:56
But because I think that good
can come out of an affair,
can come out of an affair,
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1184674
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Ali pošto smatram da dobro
može da proizađe iz afere,
može da proizađe iz afere,
20:01
I have often been asked
this very strange question:
this very strange question:
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često me pitaju ovo veoma čudno pitanje:
20:04
Would I ever recommend it?
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da li bih je ikada preporučila?
20:07
Now, I would no more
recommend you have an affair
recommend you have an affair
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E sad, ne bih vam preporučila aferu
20:10
than I would recommend you have cancer,
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2544
ništa više nego što bih vam
preporučila da imate rak.
preporučila da imate rak.
20:13
and yet we know that people
who have been ill
who have been ill
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Pa ipak znamo
da ljudi koji su bili bolesni
da ljudi koji su bili bolesni
20:15
often talk about how their illness
has yielded them a new perspective.
has yielded them a new perspective.
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4198
često govore o tome kako im je
njihova bolest podarila novu perspektivu.
njihova bolest podarila novu perspektivu.
20:20
The main question that I've been asked
since I arrived at this conference
since I arrived at this conference
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Glavno pitanje koje mi postavljaju,
otkad sam stigla na konferenciju,
otkad sam stigla na konferenciju,
20:23
when I said I would talk
about infidelity is, for or against?
about infidelity is, for or against?
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3511
pošto sam rekla da ću da govorim
o neverstvu je: da li sam za ili protiv?
o neverstvu je: da li sam za ili protiv?
20:28
I said, "Yes."
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I ja odgovaram: "Jesam."
20:30
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
20:33
I look at affairs from a dual perspective:
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3637
Posmatram afere iz dva ugla:
20:37
hurt and betrayal on one side,
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3648
na jednoj strani su bol i izdaja,
20:41
growth and self-discovery on the other --
349
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a na drugoj su rast i samootkrovenje -
20:44
what it did to you,
and what it meant for me.
and what it meant for me.
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kako se to odrazilo na tebe
i šta je meni značilo?
i šta je meni značilo?
20:48
And so when a couple comes to me
in the aftermath of an affair
in the aftermath of an affair
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Pa kad mi dođe par, iznoseći posledice
razotkrivene afere,
20:53
that has been revealed,
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20:55
I will often tell them this:
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često im kažem sledeće:
20:57
Today in the West,
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2405
danas na Zapadu,
20:59
most of us are going to have
two or three relationships
two or three relationships
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većina nas će da ima dve ili tri veze
21:04
or marriages,
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ili braka,
21:06
and some of us are going
to do it with the same person.
to do it with the same person.
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a nekima će se to desiti sa istom osobom.
21:10
Your first marriage is over.
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Vaš prvi brak je gotov.
21:13
Would you like to create
a second one together?
a second one together?
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Da li biste želeli
da stvorite novi zajedno?
da stvorite novi zajedno?
21:17
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
21:18
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Esther Perel - Relationship therapistPsychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life.
Why you should listen
For the first time in human history, couples aren’t having sex just to have kids; there’s room for sustained desire and long-term sexual relationships. But how? Perel, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in New York, travels the world to help people answer this question. For her research she works across cultures and is fluent in nine languages. She coaches, consults and speaks regularly on erotic intelligence, trauma, sexual honesty and conflict resolution. She is the author of Mating in Captivity: Reconciling the Erotic and the Domestic. Her latest work focuses on infidelity: what it is, why happy people do it and how couples can recover from it. She aims to locate this very personal experience within a larger cultural context.
Esther Perel | Speaker | TED.com