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Jean-Paul Mari: The chilling aftershock of a brush with death
Žan-Pol Mari (Jean-Paul Mari): Jezivi utisak kao posledica mimoilaženja sa smrću
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U aprilu 2003, kada su američke trupe počele da dolaze u Bagdad, granata je pala na zgradu gde je pisac i ratni korespondent Žan Pol Mari izveštavao. Tu je imao direktan susret sa smrću i započeo je svoje poznanstvo sa fantomom koji je progonio one koji su rizikovali svoje živote na ratištu od davnina. "Šta je to što može da vas ubije bez vidljivog ožiljka?" - pita Mari. Mi to znamo kao post-traumatski stresni poremećaj, ili kako to Mari opisuje, iskustvo sa prazninom smrti. U ovom dubokom govoru, on traga za odgovorima na pitanja o smrtnosti i psihozama, u posledicama užasa i traume.
Jean-Paul Mari - Journalist and psychologist
Jean-Paul Mari has reported on conflicts in more than three dozen countries. Full bio
Jean-Paul Mari has reported on conflicts in more than three dozen countries. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
It was April 8, 2003.
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Bio je to 8. april 2003.
00:17
I was in Baghdad,
covering the war in Iraq.
covering the war in Iraq.
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Bio sam u Bagdadu
i izveštavao o ratu u Iraku.
i izveštavao o ratu u Iraku.
00:22
That day, Americans tanks
started arriving in Baghdad.
started arriving in Baghdad.
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Tog dana, američki tenkovi
počeli su da dolaze u Bagdad.
počeli su da dolaze u Bagdad.
00:28
We were just a few journalists
in the Palestine Hotel,
in the Palestine Hotel,
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Bilo je nekoliko nas novinara
u hotelu "Palestina"
u hotelu "Palestina"
00:35
and, as happens in war,
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i kako se to u ratu dešava,
00:37
the fighting began to approach
outside our windows.
outside our windows.
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pucnjava je počela da se približava
našim prozorima.
našim prozorima.
00:42
Baghdad was covered
in black smoke and oil.
in black smoke and oil.
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Bagdad je bio prekriven
crnim dimom i naftom.
crnim dimom i naftom.
Užasno je smrdelo.
00:46
It smelled awful.
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Nismo mogli da vidimo ništa,
ali smo znali šta se dešavalo.
ali smo znali šta se dešavalo.
00:48
We couldn't see a thing,
but we knew what was happening.
but we knew what was happening.
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00:50
Of course, I was supposed
to be writing an article,
to be writing an article,
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Naravno, trebalo je da pišem članak,
00:53
but that's how it always goes --
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ali tako se uvek desi -
00:54
you're supposed to be writing
and something big happens.
and something big happens.
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treba da pišete i desi se nešto veliko.
00:57
So I was in my room on the 16th floor,
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Bio sam u svojoj sobi na 16. spratu,
01:00
writing and looking out the window
every now and then
every now and then
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pisao sam i povremeno gledao kroz prozor
01:03
to see what was happening.
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da vidim šta se dešava.
01:05
Suddenly, there was a huge explosion.
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Odjednom, desila se velika eksplozija.
01:07
During the previous three weeks,
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Tokom prethodne tri nedelje,
01:09
there had been shelling
with half-ton missiles,
with half-ton missiles,
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bilo je bombardovanja
granatama od pola tone,
granatama od pola tone,
01:13
but this time, the shock --
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ali ovog puta, udar -
01:16
I felt it inside of me,
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osetio sam ga u sebi
01:19
and I thought, "It's very close.
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i pomislio sam: "Veoma je blizu.
01:21
It's very, very close."
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Veoma, veoma blizu."
01:23
So I went down to see what was happening.
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Sišao sam da vidim šta se dešava.
01:25
I went down to the 15th floor
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Sišao sam na 15. sprat
01:29
to take a look.
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da izvidim.
01:31
And I saw people, journalists,
screaming in the hallways.
screaming in the hallways.
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Video sam ljude, novinare,
kako vrište po hodnicima.
kako vrište po hodnicima.
01:34
I walked into a room
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Ušao sam u sobu
01:36
and realized that it had
been hit by a missile.
been hit by a missile.
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i shvatio da ju je pogodila granata.
01:42
Someone had been wounded.
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Neko je bio ranjen.
01:45
There was a man near the window,
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Pored prozora je bio čovek,
01:47
a cameraman named Taras Protsyuk,
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kamerman, Taras Protsjuk,
01:52
lying face-down.
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i ležao je licem na dole.
01:58
Having worked in a hospital before,
I wanted to help out.
I wanted to help out.
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Pošto sam pre radio u bolnici,
želeo sam da pomognem.
želeo sam da pomognem.
02:02
So I turned him over.
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Okrenuo sam ga.
02:04
And when I turned him over,
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Kada sam ga okrenuo,
02:08
I noticed that he was open
from sternum to pubis,
from sternum to pubis,
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primetio sam da je otvoren
od grudne kosti do karlice,
od grudne kosti do karlice,
02:11
but I couldn't see anything,
nothing at all.
nothing at all.
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ali nisam mogao da vidim ništa,
baš ništa.
baš ništa.
02:14
All I saw was a white, pearly,
shiny spot that blinded me,
shiny spot that blinded me,
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Video sam samo belu, sedefastu,
sjajnu tačku koja me je zaslepljivala
sjajnu tačku koja me je zaslepljivala
02:21
and I didn't understand what was going on.
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i nisam razumeo šta se dešava.
Kada je tačka nestala
i kada sam mogao da vidim njegovu ranu,
i kada sam mogao da vidim njegovu ranu,
02:23
Once the spot disappeared
and I could see his wound,
and I could see his wound,
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02:26
which was very serious,
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koja je bila veoma ozbiljna,
moji prijatelji i ja
pod njega smo stavili čaršav
pod njega smo stavili čaršav
02:28
my buddies and I put a sheet
underneath him,
underneath him,
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02:30
and we carried him onto an elevator
that stopped at each of the 15 floors.
that stopped at each of the 15 floors.
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i nosili ga do lifta koji se zaustavljao
na svakom od 15 spratova.
na svakom od 15 spratova.
Stavili smo ga u automobil
koji ga je odveo do bolnice.
koji ga je odveo do bolnice.
02:34
We put him in a car
that took him to the hospital.
that took him to the hospital.
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02:36
He died on the way to the hospital.
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Preminuo je na putu do bolnice.
02:38
The Spanish cameraman José Couso,
who was on the 14th floor and also hit --
who was on the 14th floor and also hit --
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Španski kamerman Žoze Kuzo,
koji je bio pogođen na 14. spratu -
koji je bio pogođen na 14. spratu -
02:43
because the shell had exploded
between the two floors --
between the two floors --
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jer je granata eksplodirala
između dva sprata,
između dva sprata,
02:47
died on the operating table.
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preminuo je na operacionom stolu.
02:49
As soon as the car left, I went back.
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Čim je automobil otišao, vratio sam se.
02:51
There was that article
I was supposed to write --
I was supposed to write --
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Morao sam da napišem članak -
02:53
which I had to write.
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da ga napišem.
02:56
And so --
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I tako -
02:57
I returned to the hotel lobby
with my arms covered in blood,
with my arms covered in blood,
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vratio sam se u glavni hodnik hotela
ruku prekrivenih krvlju
ruku prekrivenih krvlju
03:04
when one of the hotel gofers stopped me
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kada me je zaustavio
jedan od službenika hotela
jedan od službenika hotela
03:07
and asked me to pay the tax
I hadn't paid for 10 days.
I hadn't paid for 10 days.
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i pitao me da platim taksu
koju nisam platio deset dana.
koju nisam platio deset dana.
03:11
I told him to get lost.
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Rekao sam mu da se gubi.
03:13
And I said to myself:
"Clear your head, put it all aside.
"Clear your head, put it all aside.
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Rekao sam sebi:
"Razbistri glavu, skloni sve u stranu.
"Razbistri glavu, skloni sve u stranu.
03:19
If you want to write,
you need to put it all aside."
you need to put it all aside."
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Ako želiš da pišeš,
moraš sve da skloniš na stranu.
moraš sve da skloniš na stranu.
03:21
And that's what I did.
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To sam i uradio.
03:22
I went upstairs, wrote
my article and sent it off.
my article and sent it off.
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Popeo sam se, napisao članak i poslao ga.
03:27
Later, aside from the feeling
of having lost my colleagues,
of having lost my colleagues,
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Kasnije, osim osećaja
gubitka mojih kolega,
gubitka mojih kolega,
03:31
something else was bothering me.
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još nešto me je mučilo.
03:34
I kept seeing that shiny, pearly spot,
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Stalno sam viđao tu sjajnu,
sedefastu tačku
sedefastu tačku
03:40
and I couldn't understand what it meant.
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i nisam mogao da razumem
šta je ona značila.
šta je ona značila.
03:43
And then, the war was over.
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Onda, rat se završio.
03:48
Later, I thought: "That's not possible.
I can't just not know what happened."
I can't just not know what happened."
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Kasnije sam pomislio: "To nije moguće.
Ne mogu da ne znam šta se desilo."
Ne mogu da ne znam šta se desilo."
03:54
Because it wasn't the first time,
and it didn't only happen to me.
and it didn't only happen to me.
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Jer to nije bio prvi put,
i nije se desilo samo meni.
i nije se desilo samo meni.
03:58
I have seen things like that
happen to others
happen to others
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Viđao sam da se takve stvari
dešavaju drugima
dešavaju drugima
04:02
in my 20 to 35 years of reporting.
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u mojih 20 do 35 godina izveštavanja.
04:04
I have seen things
that had an effect on me too.
that had an effect on me too.
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Viđao sam stvari koje su
i na mene ostavljale posledice.
i na mene ostavljale posledice.
04:08
For example, there was this man
I knew in Lebanon,
I knew in Lebanon,
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Na primer, bio je čovek iz Libana
kojeg sam poznavao,
kojeg sam poznavao,
04:11
a 25-year-old veteran
who had been fighting for five years --
who had been fighting for five years --
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25-godišnji veteran
koji se borio pet godina,
koji se borio pet godina,
04:14
a real veteran -- who we would
follow everywhere.
follow everywhere.
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pravi veteran, kojeg bismo pratili svuda.
04:16
He would crawl in the dark
with confidence --
with confidence --
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Sa samopouzdanjem
bi se provlačio u mraku -
bi se provlačio u mraku -
04:20
he was a great soldier, a true soldier --
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bio je sjajan vojnik, pravi vojnik -
04:23
so we would follow him,
knowing that we would be safe with him.
knowing that we would be safe with him.
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mi bismo ga pratili, sa znanjem
da ćemo s njim biti bezbedni.
da ćemo s njim biti bezbedni.
04:26
And one day, as I was told --
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Jednog dana, kako su mi rekli -
04:28
and I've seen him again since --
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a video sam ga od tada -
04:30
he was back in the camp, playing cards,
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bio je u kampu, kartao se,
04:32
when someone came in next door,
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kada je neko ušao kroz susedna vrata
04:36
and discharged their weapon.
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i pucao iz oružja.
04:38
As the gun went off,
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Kako je puška opalila,
04:39
that blast, that one shot,
made him duck quickly under the table,
made him duck quickly under the table,
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od toga udara, od jednog hica,
brzo se sakrio pod stolom,
brzo se sakrio pod stolom,
04:46
like a child.
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poput deteta.
04:47
He was shaking, panicking.
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Tresao se i paničio.
04:49
And since then, he has never
been able to get up and fight.
been able to get up and fight.
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Od tada nikada više nije mogao
da ustane i da se bori.
da ustane i da se bori.
04:54
He ended up working as a croupier
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Završio je kao krupije
u kazinu u Bejrutu,
gde sam ga kasnije pronašao
gde sam ga kasnije pronašao
04:56
in a Beirut casino
where I later found him,
where I later found him,
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04:59
because he couldn't sleep,
so it was quite a suitable job.
so it was quite a suitable job.
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jer nije mogao da spava,
tako da je to bio zgodan posao.
tako da je to bio zgodan posao.
05:02
So I thought to myself,
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Pomislio sam u sebi:
05:04
"What is this thing that can kill you
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"Šta je to što može da te ubije
05:08
without leaving
any visible scars?
any visible scars?
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a da ne ostavi vidljiv ožiljak?
05:12
How does that happen?
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Kako se to dešava?
05:16
What is this unknown thing?"
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Šta je ta nepoznata stvar?
05:19
It was too common to be coincidental.
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Bilo je previše često
da bi bila slučajnost.
da bi bila slučajnost.
05:23
So I started to investigate --
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Počeo sam da istražujem -
05:25
that's all I know how to do.
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to je sve što znam da radim.
05:27
I started to investigate
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Počeo sam da istražujem
05:29
by looking through books,
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tako što sam čitao knjige,
05:32
reaching out to psychiatrists,
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raspitivao se kod psihijatara,
05:35
going to museums, libraries, etc.
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išao u muzeje, biblioteke itd.
05:38
Finally, I discovered
that some people knew about this --
that some people knew about this --
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Konačno sam otkrio
da su neki ljudi znali za ovo -
da su neki ljudi znali za ovo -
05:42
often military psychiatrists --
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često vojni psihijatri
05:44
and that what we were dealing with
was called trauma.
was called trauma.
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i da smo se nosili sa onim
što se zove trauma.
što se zove trauma.
05:49
Americans call it PTSD
or traumatic neurosis.
or traumatic neurosis.
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Amerikanci to nazivaju PTSD
ili traumatskom neurozom.
ili traumatskom neurozom.
05:54
It was something
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Bilo je to nešto
05:58
that existed,
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što je postojalo
06:00
but that we never spoke about.
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ali o čemu nikad nismo pričali.
06:04
So, this trauma --
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Ova trauma -
06:06
what is it?
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šta je to?
06:07
Well, it's an encounter with death.
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To je susret sa smrću.
06:11
I don't know if you've ever had
an experience with death --
an experience with death --
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Ne znam da li ste ikada
imali iskustvo sa smrću -
imali iskustvo sa smrću -
06:13
I'm not talking about dead bodies,
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ne pričam o mrtvim telima
06:15
or someone's grandfather
lying in a hospital bed,
lying in a hospital bed,
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ili nečijem dedi
koji leži u bolničkom krevetu
koji leži u bolničkom krevetu
06:19
or someone who got hit by a car.
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ili nekome koga je udario automobil.
06:24
I'm talking about facing
the void of death.
the void of death.
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Pričam o suočavanju
sa prazninom smrti.
sa prazninom smrti.
06:29
And that is something
no one is supposed to see.
no one is supposed to see.
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A to je nešto
što niko ne bi trebalo da vidi.
što niko ne bi trebalo da vidi.
06:35
People used to say,
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Ljudi bi govorili:
06:37
"Neither the sun, nor death
can be looked at with a steady eye."
can be looked at with a steady eye."
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"Sunce i smrt ne mogu se gledati
čvrstim pogledom."
čvrstim pogledom."
06:41
A human being should not
have to face the void of death.
have to face the void of death.
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Ljudsko biće ne bi trebalo
da se suoči s prazninom smrti.
da se suoči s prazninom smrti.
06:46
But when that happens,
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Ali kada se to desi,
06:49
it can remain invisible for a while --
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može ostati nevidljivo neko vreme -
06:53
days, weeks, months, sometimes years.
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danima, nedeljama, mesecima,
ponekad godinama.
ponekad godinama.
06:56
And then, at some point,
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Onda, u nekom trenutku,
06:59
it explodes,
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ono eksplodira
07:00
because it's something
that has entered your brain --
that has entered your brain --
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jer je to nešto
što vam je ušlo u mozak -
što vam je ušlo u mozak -
07:04
a sort of window between an image
and your mind --
and your mind --
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nešto poput prozora između slike
i vašeg uma -
i vašeg uma -
07:09
that has penetrated your brain,
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ušlo vam je u mozak,
07:11
staying there and taking up
all the space inside.
all the space inside.
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ostalo tamo i zauzelo sav prostor.
07:17
And there are people --
men, women,
men, women,
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Tu su ljudi - muškarci, žene,
07:20
who suddenly no longer sleep.
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koji odjednom više ne spavaju.
07:24
And they experience
horrible anxiety attacks --
horrible anxiety attacks --
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Oni doživljavaju
užasne napade anksioznosti -
užasne napade anksioznosti -
07:26
panic attacks, not just minor fears.
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panične napade, ne samo manje strahove.
07:29
They suddenly don't want to sleep,
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Odjednom ne žele da spavaju,
07:32
because when they do, they have
the same nightmare every night.
the same nightmare every night.
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jer kada spavaju,
svake noći imaju isti košmar.
svake noći imaju isti košmar.
07:36
They see the same image every night.
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Svake noći vide istu sliku.
07:38
What type of image?
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Kakvu sliku?
07:40
For example, a soldier
who enters a building
who enters a building
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Na primer, vojnika koji ulazi u zgradu
i susreće se licem u lice
sa drugim vojnikom koji nišani na njega.
sa drugim vojnikom koji nišani na njega.
07:43
and comes face to face
with another soldier aiming at him.
with another soldier aiming at him.
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07:45
He looks at the gun,
straight down the barrel.
straight down the barrel.
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Gleda u pušku, pravo u cev.
07:48
And this barrel suddenly
becomes enormous, deformed.
becomes enormous, deformed.
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Ova cev odjednom postaje ogromna,
deformiše se,
deformiše se,
07:52
It becomes fluffy, swallowing everything.
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postaje čupava, guta sve.
07:54
And he says --
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1600
I on kaže -
07:58
later he will say, "I saw death.
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kasnije će reći: "Video sam smrt.
08:00
I saw myself dead, therefore I'm dead."
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2501
Video sam sebe mrtvog,
stoga ja jesam mrtav."
stoga ja jesam mrtav."
08:03
And from then on, he knows he is dead.
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3857
Od tada nadalje, on zna da je mrtav.
08:07
It is not a perception --
he is convinced that he is dead.
he is convinced that he is dead.
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4885
To nije utisak -
ubeđen je da je mrtav.
ubeđen je da je mrtav.
08:12
In reality, someone came in,
the guy left or didn't shoot, whatever,
the guy left or didn't shoot, whatever,
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3532
Zapravo, neko je ušao, tip sleva
je otišao ili nije pucao, šta god,
je otišao ili nije pucao, šta god,
08:15
and he didn't actually get shot --
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1647
i zapravo nije pogođen -
08:17
but to him, he died in that moment.
149
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1708
ali za njega, umro je tog trenutka.
08:19
Or it can be the smell
of a mass grave --
of a mass grave --
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2107
To može biti i miris masovne grobnice -
08:21
I saw a lot of that in Rwanda.
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1805
video sam dosta toga u Ruandi.
08:23
It can be the voice of a friend calling,
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Može biti glas prijatelja koji doziva,
08:27
and they're being slaughtered
and there's nothing you can do.
and there's nothing you can do.
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3760
a upravo ga kolju,
a vi ne možete da uradite ništa.
a vi ne možete da uradite ništa.
08:30
You hear that voice,
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1206
Čujete taj glas
08:32
and you wake up every night --
for weeks, months --
for weeks, months --
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500127
5506
i budite se svake noći,
nedeljama, mesecima -
nedeljama, mesecima -
08:37
in a trance-like state,
anxious and terrified,
anxious and terrified,
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2757
u stanju poput transa,
napeti i isprepadani,
napeti i isprepadani,
08:40
like a child.
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1355
poput deteta.
08:41
I have seen men cry --
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Video sam muškarce koji plaču,
08:44
just like children --
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512652
1363
poput dece -
08:46
from seeing the same image.
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1696
od iste slike koja se ponavlja.
08:48
So having that image
of horror in your brain,
of horror in your brain,
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4766
Prizor te slike strave u vašem mozgu -
08:54
seeing the void of death --
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522659
1838
gledanje praznine smrti -
08:56
that analogue of horror
which is hiding something --
which is hiding something --
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3705
to naličje strave koja nešto krije -
09:00
will completely take over.
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1254
to vas potpuno obuzima.
09:01
You cannot do anything, anything at all.
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2307
Ne možete da uradite baš ništa.
09:03
You cannot work anymore,
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1294
Više ne možete da radite,
09:05
you cannot love anymore.
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1283
ne možete da volite.
09:06
You go home and don't recognize anyone.
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1927
Odete kući i ne prepoznajete nikoga.
09:08
You don't even recognize yourself.
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2007
Ne prepoznajete čak ni sebe.
09:13
You hide and don't leave the house,
you lock yourself in, you become ill.
you lock yourself in, you become ill.
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Skrivate se i ne napuštate kuću,
zaključate se, razbolite se.
zaključate se, razbolite se.
09:16
I know people who placed small cans
outside their house with coins inside,
outside their house with coins inside,
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4414
Znam ljude koji su oko kuća postavili
limenke sa kovanicama,
limenke sa kovanicama,
09:21
in case someone tried to get in.
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za slučaj da neko pokuša da uđe.
09:23
All of a sudden, you feel
like you want to die or kill
like you want to die or kill
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2872
Odjednom osećate se
kao da želite da umrete ili ubijete nekog
kao da želite da umrete ili ubijete nekog
09:25
or hide or run away.
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ili se sakrijete ili pobegnete.
09:27
You want to be loved,
but you hate everyone.
but you hate everyone.
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2151
Želite da budete voljeni,
ali mrzite svakoga.
ali mrzite svakoga.
09:29
It's a feeling that seizes you entirely
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3913
To je osećaj koji vas potpuno obuzme,
09:34
day in and day out,
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1731
tokom celog dana
09:36
and you suffer tremendously.
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3904
i neverovatno patite.
09:41
And no one understands.
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1477
I niko ne razume.
09:42
They say, "There's nothing wrong with you.
You seem fine, you have no injuries.
You seem fine, you have no injuries.
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570852
3768
Kažu: "Tebi ne fali ništa.
Izgledaš u redu, nemaš povreda.
Izgledaš u redu, nemaš povreda.
09:46
You went to war, came back; you're fine."
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Išao si na ratište, vratio si se,
u redu si."
u redu si."
09:50
These people suffer tremendously.
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1882
Ovi ljudi neverovatno pate.
09:52
Some commit suicide.
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580137
1579
Neki počine samoubistvo.
Samoubistvo je, nakon svega,
kao nova stavka u vašoj agendi -
kao nova stavka u vašoj agendi -
09:54
After all, suicide is like updating
your daily planner --
your daily planner --
184
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2714
09:56
I'm already dead,
I might as well commit suicide.
I might as well commit suicide.
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2311
već sam mrtav, mogao bih i da se ubijem.
09:59
Plus, there is no more pain.
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1935
Plus, bola više nema.
10:01
Some commit suicide,
others end up under the bridge, drinking.
others end up under the bridge, drinking.
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4030
Neki se ubiju,
neki završe pod mostom, pijući.
neki završe pod mostom, pijući.
10:05
Everyone remembers
that grandfather or uncle or neighbor
that grandfather or uncle or neighbor
188
593121
4372
Svako se seća tog dede,
ujaka ili suseda,
ujaka ili suseda,
10:09
who used to drink, never said a word,
189
597517
1970
koji je pio, nikad nije ništa govorio,
uvek loše raspoložen,
tukao je suprugu,
tukao je suprugu,
10:11
always in a bad mood, beat his wife
190
599511
1769
10:13
and who would end up either sinking
into alcoholism or dying.
into alcoholism or dying.
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601304
4129
a koji bi završio ili mrtav
ili bi potonuo u alkoholizam.
ili bi potonuo u alkoholizam.
10:17
And why do we not talk about this?
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605457
2780
A zašto ne pričamo o ovome?
10:20
We don't talk about it because it's taboo.
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608261
3119
Ne pričamo o ovome jer je to tabu.
10:24
It's not like we don't have the words
to express the void of death.
to express the void of death.
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3767
Nije da nemamo reči
da opišemo prazninu smrti.
da opišemo prazninu smrti.
10:27
But others don't want hear it.
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615948
1768
Ali drugi ne žele da čuju o tome.
10:29
The first time I returned
from an assignment,
from an assignment,
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2114
Prvi put kada sam se vratio s terena,
10:31
They said, "Oh! He's back."
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619878
1526
rekli su: "Oh, vratio se!"
10:33
There was a fancy dinner --
white tablecloth, candles, guests.
white tablecloth, candles, guests.
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621428
3096
Bila je tu svečana večera -
beli stolnjak, sveće, gosti.
beli stolnjak, sveće, gosti.
10:36
"Tell us everything!"
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624548
1192
"Sve nam ispričaj!"
10:37
Which I did.
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625764
1323
To sam i uradio.
Nakon 20 minuta, ljudi su me gledali
sa užasnutim pogledima,
sa užasnutim pogledima,
10:40
After 20 minutes, people
were giving me dirty looks,
were giving me dirty looks,
201
628075
2484
10:42
the hostess had her nose in the ashtray.
202
630583
2005
domaćica je zabila nos u pepeljaru.
10:44
It was horrible and I realized
I ruined the whole evening.
I ruined the whole evening.
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632612
2971
Bilo je užasno i shvatio sam
da sam upropastio celo veče.
da sam upropastio celo veče.
10:47
So I don't talk about it anymore.
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1909
Tako da o tome više ne pričam.
10:49
We're just not ready to listen.
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1541
Prosto nismo spremni da slušamo.
Ljudi odmah kažu: "Molim te, prestani."
10:51
People say outright: "Please, stop."
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1728
10:52
Is that a rare occurrence?
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2097
Da li se to retko dešava?
10:54
No, it's extremely common.
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642978
2402
Ne, veoma je često.
Jedna trećina vojnika
koji su poginuli u Iraku -
koji su poginuli u Iraku -
10:57
One third of the soldiers
who died in Iraq --
who died in Iraq --
209
645404
2153
10:59
well, not "died," let me re-phrase that --
210
647581
2522
dobro, ne "poginuli",
dozvolite da preformulišem,
dozvolite da preformulišem,
11:02
one third of the US soldiers
who went to Iraq
who went to Iraq
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650127
3140
jedna trećina američkih vojnika
koji su otišli u Irak
koji su otišli u Irak
11:05
suffer from PTSD.
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653291
1638
pate od PTSD-a.
11:06
In 1939, there were still 200,000 soldiers
from the First World War
from the First World War
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5921
Godine 1939, još je bilo 200 000 vojnika
iz Prvog svetskog rata
iz Prvog svetskog rata
11:12
that were being treated
in British psychiatric hospitals.
in British psychiatric hospitals.
214
660898
3375
koji su se lečili u britanskim
psihijatrijskim bolnicama.
psihijatrijskim bolnicama.
11:17
In Vietnam, 54,000 people died --
215
665066
2434
U Vijetnamu, poginulo je 54 000 ljudi -
11:19
Americans.
216
667524
1343
Amerikanaca.
11:20
In 1987, the US government
identified 102,000 --
identified 102,000 --
217
668891
4173
Godine 1987, američka vlada
identifikovala je 102 000 -
identifikovala je 102 000 -
11:25
twice as many --
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673088
1214
duplo više -
11:26
102,000 veterans who died
from committing suicide.
from committing suicide.
219
674326
2624
102 000 veterana
koji su oduzeli sebi život.
koji su oduzeli sebi život.
Duplo više preminulih od samoubistva
nego od borbe u Vijetnamu.
nego od borbe u Vijetnamu.
11:28
Twice as many deaths by suicide
than by combat in Vietnam.
than by combat in Vietnam.
220
676974
2816
11:31
So you see, this relates to everything,
221
679814
3158
Vidite, ovo ima veze sa svime,
ne samo s modernim ratovanjem
već i drevnim ratovanjem -
već i drevnim ratovanjem -
11:34
not just modern warfare,
but also ancient wars --
but also ancient wars --
222
682996
2339
11:37
you can read about it,
the evidence is there.
the evidence is there.
223
685359
2999
možete čitati o tome, dokazi su tu.
11:40
So why do we not talk about it?
224
688382
2245
Zašto onda ne pričamo o tome?
11:42
Why have we not talked about it?
225
690651
2445
Zašto nismo pričali o tome?
11:45
The problem is that
if you don't talk about it,
if you don't talk about it,
226
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4468
Problem je u tome
da ako ne pričate o tome,
da ako ne pričate o tome,
11:50
you're heading for disaster.
227
698642
1595
idete ka propasti.
11:53
The only way to heal --
228
701528
2815
Jedini način za izlečenje -
11:56
and the good news here
is that this is treatable --
is that this is treatable --
229
704367
3198
a dobra vest je da je ovo izlečivo -
12:00
think Munch's The Scream, Goya, etc. --
230
708829
2071
pomislite na Munkov "Vrisak", Goju, itd -
12:02
it's indeed treatable.
231
710924
1285
zaista je izlečivo.
12:04
The only way to heal from this trauma,
232
712233
4560
Jedini način da se izlečite od ove traume,
12:08
from this encounter with death
that overwhelms, petrifies and kills you
that overwhelms, petrifies and kills you
233
716817
5056
od ovog susreta sa smrću
koji prožima, ledi i ubija vas
koji prožima, ledi i ubija vas
12:13
is to find a way to express it.
234
721897
4000
je da pronađete način da je izrazite.
12:18
People used to say,
235
726540
1739
Ljudi bi govorili:
12:20
"Language is the only thing
that holds all of us together."
that holds all of us together."
236
728303
3567
"Jezik je jedina stvar
koja nas drži na okupu."
koja nas drži na okupu."
12:23
Without language, we're nothing.
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2341
Bez jezika nismo ništa.
12:26
It's the thing that makes us human.
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734259
2617
To je no što nas čini ljudima
12:28
In the face of such a horrible image --
239
736900
1977
Uprkos tako užasnom prizoru -
12:30
a wordless image of oblivion
that obsesses us --
that obsesses us --
240
738901
5526
tihom prizoru zaborava
koji nas zaposeda,
koji nas zaposeda,
12:36
the only way to cope with it
241
744451
2459
jedini način da se nosite s tim
12:40
is to put human words to it.
242
748109
2101
je da to pretočite u ljudske reči.
12:42
Because these people
feel excluded from humanity.
feel excluded from humanity.
243
750234
2426
Ovi ljudi osećaju se
izuzetim od ljudskosti.
izuzetim od ljudskosti.
12:44
No one wants to see them anymore
and they don't want to see anyone.
and they don't want to see anyone.
244
752684
3206
Niko više ne želi da ih vidi
i ne žele da vide nikoga.
i ne žele da vide nikoga.
12:47
They feel dirty, defiled, ashamed.
245
755914
2421
Osećaju se prljavo, obeščašćeno,
posramljeno.
posramljeno.
12:50
Someone said, "Doctor,
I don't use the subway anymore
I don't use the subway anymore
246
758359
3244
Neko je rekao: "Doktore,
više ne idem podzemnom železnicom
više ne idem podzemnom železnicom
12:53
because I'm afraid people
will see the horror in my eyes."
will see the horror in my eyes."
247
761627
3214
jer se boljim da će ljudi videti
užas u mojim očima."
užas u mojim očima."
12:56
Another guy thought he had
a terrible skin disease
a terrible skin disease
248
764865
2866
Drugi tip je mislio da ima
odvratnu bolest kože
odvratnu bolest kože
12:59
and spent six months with dermatologists,
going from doctor to doctor.
going from doctor to doctor.
249
767755
3837
i proveo je šest meseci kod dermatologa,
idući od lekara do lekara.
idući od lekara do lekara.
13:03
And then one day, they sent him
to a psychiatrist.
to a psychiatrist.
250
771616
2539
Onda su ga jednog dana
poslali kod psihijatra.
poslali kod psihijatra.
13:06
During his second session,
he told the psychiatrist
he told the psychiatrist
251
774179
2405
Tokom druge posete, rekao je psihijatru
13:08
he had a terrible skin disease
from head to toe.
from head to toe.
252
776608
2330
da je od glave do pete
imao odvratnu bolest kože.
imao odvratnu bolest kože.
13:10
The psychiatrist asked,
"Why are you in this state?"
"Why are you in this state?"
253
778962
2919
Psihijatar je pitao:
"Zašto ste u ovakvom stanju?"
"Zašto ste u ovakvom stanju?"
13:13
And the man said, "Well, because
I'm dead, so I must be rotting away."
I'm dead, so I must be rotting away."
254
781905
3326
A čovek je rekao: "Pa, zašto sam mrtav,
mora da trunem."
mora da trunem."
13:17
So you see this is something
that has a profound effect on people.
that has a profound effect on people.
255
785255
4413
Vidite, ovo je nešto što ima
dubok uticaj na ljude.
dubok uticaj na ljude.
13:21
In order to heal,
we need to talk about it.
we need to talk about it.
256
789692
2409
Kako bi se izlečili,
moramo da pričamo o tome.
moramo da pričamo o tome.
13:24
The horror needs to be put into words --
257
792125
3944
Užas mora da se pretoči u reči -
13:28
human words, so we can organize it
and talk about it again.
and talk about it again.
258
796093
4183
ljudske reči, tako da možemo
da ga organizujemo i opet pričamo o tome.
da ga organizujemo i opet pričamo o tome.
13:32
We have to look death in the face.
259
800300
4142
Moramo smrti da pogledamo u lice.
13:37
And if we can do that,
if we can talk about these things,
if we can talk about these things,
260
805061
5095
Ako možemo da uradimo to,
ako možemo da pričamo o ovim stvarima,
ako možemo da pričamo o ovim stvarima,
13:42
then step by step,
by working it out verbally,
by working it out verbally,
261
810180
3425
onda korak po korak,
verbalno radeći na tome,
verbalno radeći na tome,
13:45
we can reclaim our place in humanity.
262
813629
2928
možemo vratiti svoje mesto u ljudskosti.
13:49
And it is important.
263
817549
1264
A ovo je bitno.
13:50
Silence kills us.
264
818837
1688
Tišina nas ubija.
13:53
So what does this mean?
265
821789
1422
Šta onda ovo znači?
13:55
It means that after a trauma,
266
823235
2016
Znači da nakon traume,
13:57
without question, we lose
our "unbearable lightness of being,"
our "unbearable lightness of being,"
267
825275
3635
bez pitanja, gubimo svoju
"nepodnošljivu lakoću postojanja",
"nepodnošljivu lakoću postojanja",
14:00
that sense of immortality
that keeps us here --
that keeps us here --
268
828934
2754
taj osećaj besmrtnosti
koji nas održava ovde -
koji nas održava ovde -
14:03
meaning, if we're here, we almost feel
like we're immortal, which we're not,
like we're immortal, which we're not,
269
831712
3912
znači, ako smo ovde, osećamo se skoro
kao da smo besmrtni, a nismo,
kao da smo besmrtni, a nismo,
14:07
but if we didn't believe that,
we'd say, "What's the point of it all?"
we'd say, "What's the point of it all?"
270
835648
3343
ali ako ne bismo verovali u to,
rekli bismo: "Koji je smisao svega?"
rekli bismo: "Koji je smisao svega?"
14:11
But trauma survivors have lost
that feeling of immortality.
that feeling of immortality.
271
839015
2790
Ali oni koji prežive traumu
gube taj osećaj besmrtnosti.
gube taj osećaj besmrtnosti.
14:13
They've lost their lightness.
272
841829
1395
Izgubili su svoju lakoću.
14:15
But they have found something else.
273
843248
1739
Ali pronašli su nešto drugo.
14:17
So this means that if we manage
to look death in the face,
to look death in the face,
274
845011
3260
Ovo znači da ako uspemo
da smrt pogledamo u lice,
da smrt pogledamo u lice,
14:21
and actually confront it,
rather than keep quiet and hide,
rather than keep quiet and hide,
275
849546
4902
i suočimo se s njom,
umesto da ćutimo i da se krijemo,
umesto da ćutimo i da se krijemo,
kao što su radili neki muškarci
i žene koje sam poznavao,
i žene koje sam poznavao,
14:26
like some of the men or women I know did,
276
854472
2479
14:28
such as Michael from Rwanda,
Carole from Iraq, Philippe from the Congo
Carole from Iraq, Philippe from the Congo
277
856975
6654
popuz Majkla iz Ruande, Kerol iz Iraka,
Filipa iz Konga,
Filipa iz Konga,
14:35
and other people I know,
278
863653
1226
i drugih koje poznajem,
14:36
like Sorj Chalandon, now a great writer,
279
864903
2098
poput Sorža Šalandona,
koji je sada sjajan pisac,
koji je sada sjajan pisac,
14:39
who gave up field assignments
after a trauma.
after a trauma.
280
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koji je odustao od terenskog rada
nakon traume.
nakon traume.
14:41
Five friends of mine committed suicide,
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2218
Petoro mojih prijatelja
sebi je oduzelo život,
sebi je oduzelo život,
14:43
they're the ones
who did not survive the trauma.
who did not survive the trauma.
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oni su ti koji nisu preživeli traumu.
14:46
So if we can look death in the face,
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Ako možemo smrt da pogledamo u lice,
14:51
if we, mortal humans, human mortals,
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ako mi, smrtni ljudi, ljudski smrtnici,
14:54
understand that we are human
and mortal, mortal and human,
and mortal, mortal and human,
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2841
razumemo da smo ljudi i smrtni,
smrtni i ljudi,
smrtni i ljudi,
14:57
if we can confront death
and identify it once again
and identify it once again
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ako možemo da se suočimo sa smrću
i opet je identifikujemo
i opet je identifikujemo
15:03
as the most mysterious place
of all mysterious places,
of all mysterious places,
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kao najmisteroznije mesto
od svih misterioznih mesta,
od svih misterioznih mesta,
15:07
since no one has ever seen it --
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2556
pošto je niko nikad nije video -
15:10
if we can give it back this meaning,
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2663
ako možemo da joj vratimo ovo značenje,
15:12
yes, we may die,
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da, možda ćemo umreti,
15:17
survive
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preživeti
15:20
and come back to life,
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i vratiti se među žive,
15:21
but we'll come back stronger than before.
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ali vratićemo se jači nego pre.
15:24
Much stronger.
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Mnogo jači.
15:25
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
15:27
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jean-Paul Mari - Journalist and psychologistJean-Paul Mari has reported on conflicts in more than three dozen countries.
Why you should listen
Journalist and international correspondent, psychologist and physiotherapist, Jean-Paul Mari published several hundred reports abroad and several works.
He produced a documentary, Irak: quand les soldats meurent (Iraq, wen the soldiers die), as well as a movie, Sans blessures apparentes (Without Visible Wounds), based on his book of the same name, for which he won the 2010 Grand Prix et le Prix du Public. In 2009, he was the recipient of the Grand prix des lectrices de Elle
He is the creator and the manager of grands-reporters.com and has just published a novel, La Tentation d'Antoine (The Temptation of Antoine).
Jean-Paul Mari | Speaker | TED.com