TEDGlobal 2009
Rebecca Saxe: How we read each other's minds
Rebeka Saks: Kako mozak donosi moralne sudove
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Prepoznavanje motiva, uverenja i osećanja nama bliskih ljudi i onih koji su za nas stranci predstavlja prirodni ljudski talenat. Ali kako to radimo? Ovde, Rebeka Saks izlaže zadivljujuće laboratorijsko istraživanje i otkriva kako mozak misli o mislima drugih ljudi - i kako sudi o njihovim delima.
Rebecca Saxe - Cognitive neuroscientist
Rebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others. Full bio
Rebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.
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Danas ću vam pričati o problemu drugih umova.
00:15
And the problem I'm going to talk about
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I ovaj problem o kome ću pričati
00:17
is not the familiar one from philosophy,
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nije onaj koji nam je poznat iz filozofije,
00:20
which is, "How can we know
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„Kako možemo znati
00:22
whether other people have minds?"
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da drugi ljudi imaju umove?“
00:24
That is, maybe you have a mind,
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Dakle, možda vi imate um,
00:26
and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.
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a svi ostali su samo jako ubedljivi roboti.
00:29
So that's a problem in philosophy,
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To je filozofski problem.
00:31
but for today's purposes I'm going to assume
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Ali u svrhu današnjeg izlaganja pretpostaviću
00:33
that many people in this audience have a mind,
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da mnogi ovde u publici imaju um
00:35
and that I don't have to worry about this.
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i da o tome ne moram da brinem.
00:37
There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us
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Tu je i drugi problem, koji nam je možda i poznatiji
00:40
as parents and teachers and spouses
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kao roditeljima, učiteljima, supružnicima
00:43
and novelists,
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i piscima.
00:45
which is, "Why is it so hard
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A to je „ Zašto je tako teško
00:47
to know what somebody else wants or believes?"
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znati šta neko drugi želi ili u šta veruje?“.
00:49
Or perhaps, more relevantly,
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Ili, možda značajnije,
00:51
"Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"
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„Zašto je tako teško promeniti to što neko drugi želi ili u šta veruje?“
00:54
I think novelists put this best.
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Mislim da pisci to najbolje formulišu.
00:56
Like Philip Roth, who said,
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Recimo Filip Rot, koji je rekao,
00:58
"And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business
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A opet, šta nam je činiti sa onim što je užasno važno,
01:01
of other people?
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a što su drugi ljudi?
01:03
So ill equipped are we all,
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Svi mi tako smo slabo spremni
01:05
to envision one another's interior workings
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da zamislimo unutrašnja previranja
01:07
and invisible aims."
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i nevidljive ciljeve jedni kod drugih."
01:09
So as a teacher and as a spouse,
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Ja se kao predavač i kao supruga,
01:12
this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.
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naravno, svakodnevno srećem sa ovim problemom.
01:14
But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,
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Ali kao naučnica, zainteresovana sam za drugačiji problem njihovih umova,
01:17
and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.
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a to je problem koji ću danas izneti pred vas.
01:20
And that problem is, "How is it so easy
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A problem glasi, "Kako to da je tako lako
01:22
to know other minds?"
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proniknuti u umove drugih?“
01:24
So to start with an illustration,
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Da bih ilustrovala,
01:26
you need almost no information,
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potrebno je jako malo informacija,
01:28
one snapshot of a stranger,
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jedna slika nepoznate osobe
01:30
to guess what this woman is thinking,
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da bi se pogodilo o čemu razmišlja ova žena,
01:32
or what this man is.
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ili ovaj muškarac.
01:35
And put another way, the crux of the problem is
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Drugim rečima, srž problema je
01:37
the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,
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da je mašina koju koristimo za razmišljanje o drugim umovima,
01:40
our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,
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naš mozak, sastavljena od delova, moždanih ćelija
01:43
that we share with all other animals, with monkeys
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koje delimo sa svim drugim životinjama, sa majmunima,
01:45
and mice and even sea slugs.
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miševima i čak sa morskim puževima.
01:48
And yet, you put them together in a particular network,
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A ipak, postavite ih zajedno, tako da čine specifičnu mrežu
01:51
and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.
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i dobijate potencijal za pisanje "Romea i Julije".
01:54
Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,
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Ili, kao što je Alen Grinspen rekao,
01:56
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
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„Znam da misliš da razumeš ono što si mislio da sam rekao,
01:59
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard
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ali nisam siguran da shvataš da ono što si čuo
02:01
is not what I meant."
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nije ono što sam mislio“.
02:03
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
02:06
So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience
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Dakle, zadatak moje oblasti kognitivne neuronauke
02:08
is to stand with these ideas,
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je da se paralelno nosi
02:10
one in each hand.
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sa ovim idejama.
02:12
And to try to understand how you can put together
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Kao i da pokuša da razume kako je moguće sastaviti
02:15
simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,
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jednostavne jedinice, jednostavne poruke kroz vreme i prostor, u jednu mrežu
02:19
and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.
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da bi se dobio zadivljujući ljudski potencijal za razmišljanje o umovima.
02:23
So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.
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Dakle, danas ću vam reći tri stvari na tu temu.
02:26
Obviously the whole project here is huge.
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Očigledno je da je ceo ovaj projekat ogroman.
02:29
And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps
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I ja ću vam pričati samo o našim prvim koracima,
02:32
about the discovery of a special brain region
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o otkrivanju posebne moždane regije
02:34
for thinking about other people's thoughts.
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za razmišljanje o mislima drugih ljudi.
02:36
Some observations on the slow development of this system
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Zatim, o posmatranjima koja govore o sporom razvoju ovog sistema
02:38
as we learn how to do this difficult job.
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dok se učimo ovom teškom poslu.
02:42
And then finally, to show that some of the differences
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I na posletku, pokazaću da neke od razlika
02:44
between people, in how we judge others,
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među ljudima, u tome kako sudimo o drugima,
02:47
can be explained by differences in this brain system.
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mogu da se objasne razlikama u ovom moždanom sistemu.
02:51
So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that
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Dakle pod jedan, prva stvar koju želim da vam ispričam jeste
02:53
there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,
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da u ljuskom mozgu,u vašim mozgovima, postoji moždana regija
02:56
whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.
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čiji posao je da misli o mislima drugih ljudi.
02:59
This is a picture of it.
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Ovo je slika te regije.
03:01
It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.
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Zove se desna slepoočno - temena spojnica.
03:03
It's above and behind your right ear.
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Nalazi se iznad i iza vašeg desnog uha.
03:05
And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,
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I to je moždana regija koju ste koristili kada ste videli slike koje sam vam pokazala,
03:07
or when you read Romeo and Juliet
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ili kada ste čitali "Romeo i Julija",
03:09
or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.
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ili pokušavali da razumete Alena Grinspena.
03:12
And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.
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I nju ne koristite za rešavanje bilo kojih drugih logičkih problema.
03:16
So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.
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Ovu moždanu regiju zovemo "RTPJ".
03:19
And this picture shows the average activation
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I ova slika pokazuje prosečnu aktivaciju
03:21
in a group of what we call typical human adults.
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u grupi takozvanih tipičnih odraslih ljudi.
03:23
They're MIT undergraduates.
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To su studenti fakulteta na MIT-u.
03:25
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
03:29
The second thing I want to say about this brain system
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Druga stvar koju želim da kažem o ovom moždanom sistemu
03:31
is that although we human adults
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je da, mada mi kao odrasli ljudi
03:33
are really good at understanding other minds,
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jesmo stvarno dobri u razumevanju umova drugih ljudi,
03:35
we weren't always that way.
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nismo uvek bili takvi.
03:37
It takes children a long time to break into the system.
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Deci je potrebno puno vremena da uđu u sistem.
03:40
I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.
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Pokazaću vam delić tog dugog, postepenog procesa.
03:44
The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,
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Prva stvar koju ću vam pokazati je promena između treće i pete godine,
03:47
as kids learn to understand
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kada deca uče da razumeju
03:49
that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.
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da neko drugi može imati uverenja koja se razlikuju od njihovih vlastitih.
03:52
So I'm going to show you a five-year-old
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Tako ću vam pokazati petogodišnjaka
03:54
who is getting a standard kind of puzzle
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kome je zadata standardna zagonetka
03:56
that we call the false belief task.
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koju zovemo zadatak lažnog uverenja.
03:59
Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.
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Video: ovo je prvi gusar. Zove se Ivan.
04:02
And you know what pirates really like?
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A znaš šta gusari mnogo vole?
04:04
Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.
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Gusari mnogo vole sendviče sa sirom.
04:07
Child: Cheese? I love cheese!
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Dete: sir? Ja obožavam sir!
04:10
RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,
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R.S.: aha. E, Ivan ima ovaj senvič sa sirom
04:12
and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!
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pa kaže „Njam, njam, njam, njam, njam!
04:14
I really love cheese sandwiches."
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Stvarno volim sendviče sa sirom.“
04:16
And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.
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I Ivan stavi sendič ovde, na gusarsku škrinju.
04:20
And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."
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Ivan kaže „Znaš šta? Treba mi piće uz ručak“.
04:24
And so Ivan goes to get a drink.
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I tako Ivan ode da uzme piće.
04:27
And while Ivan is away
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A dok Ivan nije tu
04:29
the wind comes,
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naiđe vetar,
04:32
and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.
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oduva sendvič dole na travu.
04:34
And now, here comes the other pirate.
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I sada, evo i drugog gusara.
04:38
This pirate is called Joshua.
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Ovaj gusar se zove Džošua.
04:41
And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.
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I Džošua takođe mnogo voli sendviče sa sirom.
04:43
So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,
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I Džošua ima sendvič sa sirom i on kaže:
04:45
"Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."
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„Njam, njam, njam, njam, njam! Stvarno volim sendviče sa sirom.“
04:49
And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.
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I on stavi sendvič sa sirom ovde na gusarsku škrinju.
04:52
Child: So, that one is his.
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Dete: znači, taj je njegov.
04:54
RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.
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R.S.: taj je Džošuin. Tako je.
04:56
Child: And then his went on the ground.
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Dete: a onda je njegov pao na pod.
04:58
RS: That's exactly right.
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R.S.: da, baš tako.
05:00
Child: So he won't know which one is his.
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Dete: znači on neće znati koji je njegov.
05:02
RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.
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R.S.: eh. Sada Džošua odlazi da uzme piće.
05:05
Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Ivan se vraća i kaže „Hoću svoj sendvič sa sirom.“
05:09
So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?
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Pa šta misliš koji će Ivan da uzme?
05:12
Child: I think he is going to take that one.
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Dete: mislim da će da uzme onaj.
05:14
RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.
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R.S.: misliš da će da uzme taj? U redu. Hajde da vidimo.
05:16
Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.
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Aha, bio si u pravu. Uzeo je taj.
05:19
So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands
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Dakle ovaj petogodišnjak očigledno razume
05:21
that other people can have false beliefs
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da drugi ljudi mogu imati lažna uverenja
05:23
and what the consequences are for their actions.
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i kakve su posledice za njihove delatnosti.
05:25
Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old
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Sada ću vam pokazati trogodišnjaka
05:28
who got the same puzzle.
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koji je dobio istu zagonetku.
05:30
RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Video: R.S.: I Ivan kaže, „ Hoću svoj sendvič sa sirom.“
05:32
Which sandwich is he going to take?
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Koji sendvič će uzeti?
05:35
Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.
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Misliš li da će uzeti taj? Da vidimo šta će se desiti.
05:37
Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.
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Da vidimo šta će uraditi. Evo Ivana.
05:39
And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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I on kaže, “Hoću svoj sendvič sa sirom.“
05:42
And he takes this one.
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I uzima ovaj.
05:44
Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?
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Opa! Zašto je uzeo taj?
05:47
Child: His was on the grass.
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Dete: njegov je bio u travi.
05:51
So the three-year-old does two things differently.
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R.S.: dakle, trogodišnjak dve stvari radi drugačije.
05:54
First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich
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Prvo, predviđa da će Ivan uzeti sendvič
05:57
that's really his.
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koji je stvarno njegov.
05:59
And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,
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Drugo, kada vidi kako Ivan uzima sendvič tamo gde je ostavio svoj,
06:03
where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,
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na šta bi mi rekli da ga uzima jer misli da je njegov,
06:06
the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:
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trogodišnjak smišlja drugo objašnjenje.
06:09
He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,
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On ne uzima svoj sendvič zato što ga ne želi,
06:11
because now it's dirty, on the ground.
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već zato što je sada prljav, na zemlji.
06:13
So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.
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Dakle, zbog toga uzima drugi sendvič.
06:15
Now of course, development doesn't end at five.
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Naravno, razvoj se ne završava u petoj godini.
06:19
And we can see the continuation of this process
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Možemo videti nastavak ovog procesa
06:21
of learning to think about other people's thoughts
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učenja da se misli o mislima drugih
06:23
by upping the ante
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tako što ćemo podići ulog
06:25
and asking children now, not for an action prediction,
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i decu više ne pitati da predvide postupke
06:28
but for a moral judgment.
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već da donesu moralni sud.
06:30
So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.
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Dakle, prvo ću vam ponovo pokazati trogodišnjaka.
06:32
RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Video: R.S.: pa je li Ivan zločest i nevaljao što je uzeo Džošuin sendvič?
06:35
Child: Yeah.
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Dete: da.
06:36
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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R.S.: da li Ivan treba da bude kažnjen zato što je uzeo Džošuin sendvič?
06:39
Child: Yeah.
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Dete: da.
06:41
So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan
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R.S.: pa možda nije iznenađujuće što misli da je Ivan bio zločest
06:43
to take Joshua's sandwich,
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kad je uzeo Džošuin sendvič.
06:45
since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich
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Budući da misli da je Ivan uzeo Džošuin sendvič
06:47
to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.
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samo da bi izbegao da jede svoj prljavi sendvič.
06:50
But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.
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Ali sada ću vam pokazati petogodišnjaka.
06:52
Remember the five-year-old completely understood
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Setite se da je petogodišnjak u potpunosti razumeo
06:54
why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.
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zašto je Ivan uzeo Džošuin sendvič.
06:56
RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty
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Video: R.S.: da li je Ivan zločest i nevaljao
06:58
for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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zato što je uzeo Džošuin sendvič?
07:00
Child: Um, yeah.
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Dete: hm, jeste.
07:02
And so, it is not until age seven
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R.S.: i tako, pre uzrasta od sedam godina
07:04
that we get what looks more like an adult response.
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ne dobijamo odgovor koji liči na odgovor odraslog.
07:07
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Video: R.S.: da li Ivan treba da bude kažnjen zato što je uzeo Džošuin sendvič?
07:10
Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.
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Dete: ne, zato što vetar treba da bude kažnjen.
07:12
He says the wind should get in trouble
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R.S.: kaže da vetar treba da bude kažnjen
07:15
for switching the sandwiches.
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jer je zamenio sendviče.
07:17
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
07:19
And now what we've started to do in my lab
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I sad, u mojoj laboratoriji počeli smo
07:21
is to put children into the brain scanner
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da stavljamo decu u aparat za skeniranje mozga
07:23
and ask what's going on in their brain
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i postavljamo pitanje šta se dešava u njihovom mozgu
07:26
as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.
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dok se razvija ova sposobnost razmišljanja o mislima drugih ljudi.
07:29
So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,
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I prva stvar je da kod dece uočavamo aktivnost iste moždane regije RTPJ,
07:33
being used while children are thinking about other people.
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dok deca razmišljaju o drugim ljudima.
07:36
But it's not quite like the adult brain.
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Ali postoje razlike u odnosu na mozak odraslih.
07:38
So whereas in the adults, as I told you,
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Dok je kod odraslih, kao što sam vam rekla,
07:40
this brain region is almost completely specialized --
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ova moždana regija skoro u potpunosti specijalizovana.
07:43
it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --
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Skoro da ne radi ništa drugo, osim razmišljanja o mislima drugih ljudi.
07:46
in children it's much less so,
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Kod dece to važi u mnogo manjoj meri,
07:48
when they are age five to eight,
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kada su u uzrastu od pet do osam godina,
07:50
the age range of the children I just showed you.
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što je uzrast dece koju sam vam upravo pokazala.
07:52
And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,
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I zapravo, ako pogledamo čak i uzrast od osam do jedanaest godina,
07:55
getting into early adolescence,
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na pragu rane adolescencije,
07:57
they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.
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još uvek nemaju u potpunosti istu moždanu regiju kao odrasli.
08:00
And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood
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tako, možemo videti da tokom detinjstva
08:03
and even into adolescence,
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i čak u ranoj adolescenciji,
08:05
both the cognitive system,
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kognitivni sistem,
08:07
our mind's ability to think about other minds,
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sposobnost uma da razmišlja o umovima drugih ljudi,
08:09
and the brain system that supports it
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kao i moždani sistem koji to podržava,
08:11
are continuing, slowly, to develop.
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nastavljaju polako da se razvijaju.
08:14
But of course, as you're probably aware,
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Ali, naravno, verovatno ste i sami svesni
08:16
even in adulthood,
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da se čak i u odraslom dobu
08:18
people differ from one another in how good they are
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ljudi razlikuju međusobno po sposobnosti
08:20
at thinking of other minds, how often they do it
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da razmišljaju o umovima dugih ljudi, koliko često to rade
08:22
and how accurately.
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i sa kojim stepenom tačnosti.
08:24
And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults
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Dakle, mi smo želeli da saznamo, da li je moguće objasniti razlike među odraslima
08:27
in how they think about other people's thoughts
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u tome kako razmišljaju o mislima drugih ljudi,
08:29
be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?
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putem razlika koje postoje u ovoj moždanoj regiji.
08:32
So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version
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Zato smo najpre zadali odraslima varijantu
08:35
of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.
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gusarske dileme koju smo davali deci.
08:37
And I'm going to give that to you now.
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I sada ću je ja zadati vama.
08:39
So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,
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Dakle, Grejs i njena prijateljica obilaze hemijsko postrojenje
08:42
and they take a break for coffee.
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i naprave pauzu da popiju kafu.
08:44
And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.
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Grejsina prijateljica traži šećer u svojoj kafi.
08:47
Grace goes to make the coffee
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Grejs odlazi da napravi kafu
08:50
and finds by the coffee a pot
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i pored kafe nalazi posudu
08:52
containing a white powder, which is sugar.
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sa belim prahom, tačnije šećerom.
08:55
But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"
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Ali prah je obeležen kao „ Smrtonosni otrov“.
08:58
so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.
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Stoga Grejs misli da je prah smrtonosni otrov.
09:01
And she puts it in her friend's coffee.
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I ona stavi taj prah prijateljici u kafu.
09:03
And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.
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Njena prijateljica popije kafu i ne bude joj ništa.
09:06
How many people think it was morally permissible
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Koliko vas smatra da je bilo moralno dopustivo
09:08
for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?
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to što je Grejs stavila prah u kafu?
09:12
Okay. Good. (Laughter)
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U redu. Dobro je. (Smeh)
09:15
So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed
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Dakle, ljude smo pitali koliko krivice Grejs snosi,
09:18
in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?
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u ovom slučaju, koji smo nazvali "neuspeli pokušaj da se nanese povreda".
09:20
And we can compare that to another case,
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I ovo možemo uporediti sa drugim slučajem
09:22
where everything in the real world is the same.
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gde je u stvarnosti sve isto.
09:24
The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.
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Prah je i dalje šećer, ali ono što se razlikuje je šta Grejs misli.
09:27
Now she thinks the powder is sugar.
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Sada ona misli da je prah šećer.
09:30
And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar
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I možda nije nikakvo iznenađenje, ako Grajs misli da je prah šećer
09:33
and puts it in her friend's coffee,
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i stavi ga prijateljici u kafu,
09:35
people say she deserves no blame at all.
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što ljudi kažu da nije ni za šta kriva.
09:37
Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,
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Dok u slučaju kada misli da je prah otrov, iako je ustvari šećer,
09:41
now people say she deserves a lot of blame,
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kažu da je njena krivica velika,
09:44
even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.
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iako je ono što se u stvarnosti desilo potpuno isto.
09:47
And in fact, they say she deserves more blame
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Zapravo, ljudi kažu da je njena krivica veća
09:49
in this case, the failed attempt to harm,
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u ovom slučaju, neuspelom pokušaju da se nanese povreda,
09:51
than in another case,
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nego u drugom,
09:53
which we call an accident.
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koji nazivamo nesrećom.
09:55
Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,
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Tu je Grejs mislila da je prah šećer,
09:57
because it was labeled "sugar" and by the coffee machine,
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zato što je imao natpis „ Šećer“ i stajao je pored mašine za kafu,
09:59
but actually the powder was poison.
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ali je ustvari prah bio otrov.
10:01
So even though when the powder was poison,
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Pa čak i u slučaju kada je prah bio otrov,
10:04
the friend drank the coffee and died,
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prijateljica popila kafu i umrla,
10:07
people say Grace deserves less blame in that case,
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ljudi kažu da Grejs snosi manje krivice u ovom slučaju,
10:10
when she innocently thought it was sugar,
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kada je nevino mislila da je to šećer,
10:12
than in the other case, where she thought it was poison
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nego u drugom slučaju, kada je mislila da je otrov
10:14
and no harm occurred.
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i nikome nije naudila.
10:17
People, though, disagree a little bit
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Ipak ljudi se ne slažu u potpunosti sa tim
10:19
about exactly how much blame Grace should get
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kolika je krivica koja pada na Grejs
10:21
in the accident case.
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u slučaju nesreće.
10:23
Some people think she should deserve more blame,
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Neki misle da je njena krivica veća,
10:25
and other people less.
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neki da je manja.
10:27
And what I'm going to show you is what happened when we look inside
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A ja ću vam pokazati šta smo našli kada smo pogledali unutra,
10:29
the brains of people while they're making that judgment.
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u mozgove ljudi dok su donosili sud o tome.
10:31
So what I'm showing you, from left to right,
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Dakle, sada vam prikazujem, sleva na desno,
10:33
is how much activity there was in this brain region,
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kolika je bila aktivnost u ovoj moždanoj regiji
10:36
and from top to bottom, how much blame
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i od vrha ka dnu, koliko krivice
10:38
people said that Grace deserved.
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ljudi pripisuju Grejs.
10:40
And what you can see is, on the left
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I možete da vidite, na levoj strani,
10:42
when there was very little activity in this brain region,
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kada je bilo vrlo malo aktivnosti u ovoj moždanoj regiji,
10:44
people paid little attention to her innocent belief
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ljudi su malo pažnje poklanjali nevinosti njenog uverenja
10:47
and said she deserved a lot of blame for the accident.
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i rekli su da je na njoj velika krivica za nesreću.
10:50
Whereas on the right, where there was a lot of activity,
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Nasuprot tome, sa desne strane, kada je bilo intenzivne aktivnosti,
10:52
people paid a lot more attention to her innocent belief,
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ljudi su u većoj meri obratili pažnju na nevinost njenih uverenja
10:55
and said she deserved a lot less blame
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i rekli da je njena krivica za izazivanje nesreće
10:57
for causing the accident.
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mnogo manja.
10:59
So that's good, but of course
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Pa to je dobro, ali naravno,
11:01
what we'd rather is have a way to interfere
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želeli bismo da imamo načina da utičemo
11:03
with function in this brain region,
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na funkcionisanje ove moždane regije
11:05
and see if we could change people's moral judgment.
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i pokušamo da promenimo moralno rasuđivanje ljudi.
11:08
And we do have such a tool.
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A mi imamo instrument za to.
11:10
It's called Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,
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To je magnetna stimulacija kroz lobanju,
11:12
or TMS.
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ili skraćeno "TMS".
11:14
This is a tool that lets us pass a magnetic pulse
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Ovaj instrument nam omogućuje da propustimo impuls magnetnog polja
11:16
through somebody's skull, into a small region of their brain,
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kroz nečiju lobanju, ciljano u malu regiju njihovog mozga
11:20
and temporarily disorganize the function of the neurons in that region.
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i privremeno poremetimo funkciju neurona u toj regiji.
11:24
So I'm going to show you a demo of this.
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Dakle, pokazaću vam demonstraciju.
11:26
First, I'm going to show you that this is a magnetic pulse.
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Najpre ću vam pokazati, da bih vam pokazala da je ovo impuls magnetnog polja,
11:29
I'm going to show you what happens when you put a quarter on the machine.
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pokazaću vam šta se dešava kada stavite novčić u mašinu.
11:32
When you hear clicks, we're turning the machine on.
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Kada čujete kliktanje to mi uključujemo mašinu.
11:42
So now I'm going to apply that same pulse to my brain,
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A sada ću primeniti taj isti impuls na svoj mozak,
11:45
to the part of my brain that controls my hand.
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na deo mozga koji kontroliše moju ruku.
11:47
So there is no physical force, just a magnetic pulse.
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Dakle, nema fizičke sile, samo impuls magnetnog polja.
11:54
Woman (Video): Ready, Rebecca? RS: Yes.
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Video: Žena: Spremni? Rebeka Saks: Da.
11:57
Okay, so it causes a small involuntary contraction in my hand
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U redu, dakle to uzrokuje slabu nevoljnu kontrakciju u mojoj ruci
12:00
by putting a magnetic pulse in my brain.
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izazvanu propuštanjem impulsa magnetnog polja kroz moj mozak.
12:03
And we can use that same pulse,
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I možemo koristiti taj isti impuls,
12:05
now applied to the RTPJ,
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u ovom slučaju usmeren na RTPJ region,
12:07
to ask if we can change people's moral judgments.
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da vidimo da li možemo da promenimo moralne sudove ljudi.
12:10
So these are the judgments I showed you before, people's normal moral judgments.
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Dakle, ovo su sudovi koje sam vam prethodno pokazala, normalni moralni sudovi ljudi.
12:12
And then we can apply TMS to the RTPJ
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A zatim možemo primeniti TMS na RTPJ regiju
12:15
and ask how people's judgments change.
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i videti kako se sudovi koje ljudi donose menjaju.
12:17
And the first thing is, people can still do this task overall.
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Prva stvar je da ljudi i dalje mogu da obave ovaj zadatak u celini gledano.
12:21
So their judgments of the case when everything was fine
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Pa, njihovi sudovi u slučaju kada je sve bilo u redu
12:23
remain the same. They say she deserves no blame.
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ostaju isti. Oni kažu da uopšte nije kriva.
12:26
But in the case of a failed attempt to harm,
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Ali u slučaju neuspelog pokušaja da se nanese povreda,
12:30
where Grace thought that it was poison, although it was really sugar,
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kada je Grejs mislila da je to otrov, iako je to zapravo bio šećer,
12:33
people now say it was more okay, she deserves less blame
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ljudi sada kažu da je to prihvatljivije, na njoj je manja krivica
12:36
for putting the powder in the coffee.
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zbog stavljanja praha u kafu.
12:39
And in the case of the accident, where she thought that it was sugar,
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A u slučaju nesreće, kada je mislila da je to šećer,
12:41
but it was really poison and so she caused a death,
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ali je to zapravo bio otrov kojim je ona izazvala smrt,
12:44
people say that it was less okay, she deserves more blame.
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ljudi kažu da je to manje prihvatljivo, njena krivica je veća.
12:50
So what I've told you today is that
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Dakle, danas sam vam ispričala kako
12:52
people come, actually, especially well equipped
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su ljudi zapravo, posebno dobro opremljeni
12:56
to think about other people's thoughts.
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da razmišljaju o mislima drugih ljudi.
12:58
We have a special brain system
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Posedujemo posebni moždani sistem
13:00
that lets us think about what other people are thinking.
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koji nam omogućuje da mislimo o tome šta je sadržaj misli drugih.
13:03
This system takes a long time to develop,
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Ovom sistemu potrebno je dosta vremena da se razvije,
13:05
slowly throughout the course of childhood and into early adolescence.
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to čini polako tokom čitavog detinjstva i rane adolescencije.
13:08
And even in adulthood, differences in this brain region
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Čak i u odraslom dobu, razlike u ovom moždanom regionu
13:11
can explain differences among adults
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mogu da objasne razlike među odraslim individuama
13:13
in how we think about and judge other people.
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u tome kako razmišljamo i rasuđujemo o drugim ljudima.
13:16
But I want to give the last word back to the novelists,
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Ali poslednju reč na ovu temu želim da vratim piscima.
13:19
and to Philip Roth, who ended by saying,
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Tačnije, Filipu Rotu koji na kraju kaže:
13:22
"The fact remains that getting people right
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„Izvesno je da razumeti ljude
13:24
is not what living is all about anyway.
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nije ono što čini život.
13:26
It's getting them wrong that is living.
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Živeti jeste razumeti ih pogrešno.
13:28
Getting them wrong and wrong and wrong,
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Razumeti ih pogrešno, pogrešno i pogrešno
13:31
and then on careful reconsideration,
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i onda nakon pažljivog premišljanja,
13:33
getting them wrong again."
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ponovo ih pogrešno razumeti.“
13:35
Thank you.
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Hvala vam
13:37
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
13:47
Chris Anderson: So, I have a question. When you start talking about using
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Kris Anderson: Kada pričate o korišćenju
13:49
magnetic pulses to change people's moral judgments,
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impulsa magnetnog polja za menjanje moralnog rasuđivanja ljudi,
13:52
that sounds alarming.
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zvuči uznemirujuće.
13:55
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
13:56
Please tell me that you're not taking phone calls from the Pentagon, say.
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Molim Vas, recite da ne primate telefonske pozive iz, recimo, Pentagona.
14:00
RS: I'm not.
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Rebeka Saks: Ne.
14:02
I mean, they're calling, but I'm not taking the call.
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Mislim, oni zovu, ali ja ne primam pozive.
14:05
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
14:06
CA: They really are calling?
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C.A.: Stvarno zovu?
14:08
So then seriously,
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Pa, sad ozbiljno, stvarno ozbiljno,
14:11
you must lie awake at night sometimes
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mora da ponekad ležite budni noću
14:14
wondering where this work leads.
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i pitate se gde vodi vaš rad.
14:16
I mean, you're clearly an incredible human being,
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Hoću reći, očigledno je da ste izuzetna osoba.
14:18
but someone could take this knowledge
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Ali neko bi mogao da uzme ovo znanje
14:21
and in some future
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i u nekoj budućoj
14:23
not-torture chamber,
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ćeliji koja nije za mučenje
14:25
do acts that people here might be worried about.
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počini stvari koje bi zabrinule ovde prisutne.
14:28
RS: Yeah, we worry about this.
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R.S.: Da, to nas brine.
14:30
So, there's a couple of things to say about TMS.
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Par stvari treba reći o TMS-u.
14:33
One is that you can't be TMSed without knowing it.
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Jedna je da ne možete biti izloženi TMS-u bez vašeg znanja.
14:35
So it's not a surreptitious technology.
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Nije to tehnologija koja se može primeniti u tajnosti.
14:38
It's quite hard, actually, to get those very small changes.
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Zapravo je jako teško postići te jako male promene.
14:41
The changes I showed you are impressive to me
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Promene koje sam vam pokazala su meni impresivne
14:44
because of what they tell us about the function of the brain,
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zbog onoga što iz njih saznajemo o funkcionisanju mozga.
14:46
but they're small on the scale
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Ali one su male u poređenju sa
14:48
of the moral judgments that we actually make.
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moralnim sudovima koje zapravo donosimo.
14:50
And what we changed was not people's
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I mi kod ljudi nismo promenili
14:52
moral judgments when they're deciding what to do,
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moralne sudove koje donose kad odlučuju šta da rade,
14:55
when they're making action choices.
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kada biraju pravac delovanja.
14:57
We changed their ability to judge other people's actions.
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Mi menjamo njihovu sposobnost da procenjuju delovanje drugih ljudi.
15:00
And so, I think of what I'm doing not so much as
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O svom radu razmišljam ne kao o
15:02
studying the defendant in a criminal trial,
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proučavanju okrivljenog u krivičnom postupku,
15:04
but studying the jury.
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već kao o proučavanju porote.
15:06
CA: Is your work going to lead to any recommendations
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K.A.: Da li će vaš rad dovesti do nekih preporuka
15:09
in education, to perhaps bring up
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za obrazovanje, možda o vaspitanju
15:12
a generation of kids able to make fairer moral judgments?
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generacija dece sposobnih da donose pravednije moralne sudove?
15:17
RS: That's one of the idealistic hopes.
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R.S.: To je deo idealističkih nadanja.
15:20
The whole research program here of studying
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Ceo ovaj istraživački poduhvat, proučavanja
15:24
the distinctive parts of the human brain is brand new.
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pojedinih delova ljudskog mozga je u potpunosti nov.
15:28
Until recently, what we knew about the brain
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Sve do skora o mozgu smo znali stvari
15:30
were the things that any other animal's brain could do too,
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svojstvene i bilo kojem drugom životinjskom mozgu.
15:33
so we could study it in animal models.
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Mogli smo da proučavamo na modelima životinja.
15:35
We knew how brains see, and how they control the body
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Znali smo kako mozgovi vide, kontrolišu telo,
15:37
and how they hear and sense.
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kako čuju i kakva im je percepcija.
15:39
And the whole project of understanding
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A ceo poduhvat razumevanja
15:42
how brains do the uniquely human things --
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kako mozak čini stvari jedinstveno ljudske,
15:44
learn language and abstract concepts,
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uči jezik, i apstraktne pojmove,
15:47
and thinking about other people's thoughts -- that's brand new.
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razmišlja o mislima drugih ljudi, to je u potpunosti novo.
15:49
And we don't know yet what the implications will be
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I mi još uvek ne znamo koje su implikacije
15:51
of understanding it.
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ovakvog razumevanja.
15:53
CA: So I've got one last question. There is this thing called
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C.A.: Pa, samo još jedno pitanje. Postoji nešto što zovemo
15:55
the hard problem of consciousness,
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teškim problemom svesnosti,
15:57
that puzzles a lot of people.
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koji kopka mnoge ljude.
15:59
The notion that you can understand
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Ideja da je moguće razumeti
16:02
why a brain works, perhaps.
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zašto mozak radi je možda prihvatljiva.
16:04
But why does anyone have to feel anything?
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Ali zašto je potrebno da iko ima osećanja?
16:07
Why does it seem to require these beings who sense things
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Zašto je neophodno da ova bića osećaju stvari
16:10
for us to operate?
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da bi funkcionisala?
16:12
You're a brilliant young neuroscientist.
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Vi ste izuzetna mlada naučnica.
16:15
I mean, what chances do you think there are
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Mislim, kakva je po Vama šansa
16:17
that at some time in your career,
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da u nekom trenutku tokom vaše karijere,
16:19
someone, you or someone else,
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Vi ili neko drugi,
16:21
is going to come up with some paradigm shift
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dođete do promene paradigme
16:23
in understanding what seems an impossible problem?
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u razumevanju ovog, naizgled, nemogućeg problema.
16:27
RS: I hope they do. And I think they probably won't.
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R.S.: Nadam se da hoće. I mislim da je malo verovatno.
16:31
CA: Why?
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C.A.: Zašto?
16:34
RS: It's not called the hard problem of consciousness for nothing.
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R.S.: Ne zove se teški problem svesnosti bez razloga.
16:37
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
16:39
CA: That's a great answer. Rebecca Saxe, thank you very much. That was fantastic.
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C.A.: Odličan odgovor. Rebeka Saks, najlepše Vam hvala. Bilo je fantastično.
16:42
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Rebecca Saxe - Cognitive neuroscientistRebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others.
Why you should listen
While still a graduate student, Rebecca Saxe made a breakthrough discovery: There's a specific region in our brain that becomes active when we contemplate the workings of other minds. Now, at MIT's Saxelab, she and her team have been further exploring her grad-school finding, exploring how it may help us understand conditions such as autism.
As Saxe delves into the complexities of social cognition, this young scientist is working toward revealing the enigma of human minds interacting.
Rebecca Saxe | Speaker | TED.com