ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Bobby Ghosh - Editor
Bobby Ghosh is the Managing Editor at Quartz.

Why you should listen

Bobby Ghosh was the longest serving print journalist in Iraq until he left in 2007 to become Time's World Editor. Formerly an editor-at-large for Time, his work encompasses his broad interests, from restaurant reviews to an extended interview with Egyptian president Mohammad Morsi for his latest cover story. He recently went on patrol in Yemen to view what many hope is the end of the transnational al-Qaeda movement. Ghosh is now the Managing Editor of Quartz.

To explore more of the ideas in Ghosh's talk, read his recent essay for Time Worldwide: "11 Years After 9/11, the Holy World War Is Over and All Jihad is Local" >>

 
More profile about the speaker
Bobby Ghosh | Speaker | TED.com
TEDxGeorgetown

Bobby Ghosh: Why global jihad is losing

Bobby Ghosh: Why global jihad is losing Bobby Ghosh:为什么说全球性的圣战正在消亡

Filmed:
725,096 views

记者Bobby Ghosh说,纵观伊斯兰历史,圣战有两种涵义,内部的,个人向上的努力,以及外部的。很小一部分人(奥萨马本拉登们)认同第二个,并用以作为对抗“西方”的极端暴力活动的借口。Ghosh建议, 现在本拉登的全球性组织已经瓦解,是该让这个词回归本源的时候了。 (拍摄自TEDxGeorgetown。)
- Editor
Bobby Ghosh is the Managing Editor at Quartz. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:16
I'm going to talk about the power功率 of a word:
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这里我想谈谈词汇的力量。
00:20
jihad讨伐异教徒.
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圣战(jihad)
00:23
To the vast广大 majority多数 of practicing Muslims穆斯林,
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对于大多数穆斯林来说
00:27
jihad讨伐异教徒 is an internal内部 struggle斗争 for the faith信仰.
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圣战是为坚守信仰而经历的内心抗争。
00:31
It is a struggle斗争 within, a struggle斗争 against反对 vice, sin,
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是发自内心地抗争邪恶、罪恶、
00:36
temptation诱惑, lust情欲, greed贪心.
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诱惑,肉欲和贪婪。
00:38
It is a struggle斗争 to try and live生活 a life
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是努力过上可兰经
00:42
that is set by the moral道德 codes代码 written书面 in the Koran可兰经.
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道德准则下的生活。
00:48
In that original原版的 idea理念, the concept概念 of jihad讨伐异教徒 is as important重要
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在原始教义中,圣战之于穆斯林
00:54
to Muslims穆斯林 as the idea理念 of grace恩典 is to Christians基督徒.
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就如同主恩(grace)之于基督教徒那样重要。
01:00
It's a very powerful强大 word, jihad讨伐异教徒, if you look at it in that respect尊重,
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从这个的角度来看,圣战,是一个非常有力的词汇,
01:03
and there's a certain某些 almost几乎 mystical神秘 resonance谐振 to it.
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能唤起某种几近神秘的共鸣。
01:08
And that's the reason原因 why, for hundreds数以百计 of years年份,
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这也是为什么,数百年以来,
01:11
Muslims穆斯林 everywhere到处 have named命名 their children孩子 Jihad讨伐异教徒,
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世界各地的穆斯林,纷纷为自己的女儿或儿子
01:14
their daughters女儿 as much as their sons儿子, in the same相同 way
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起名为圣战(Jihad),
01:16
that, say, Christians基督徒 name名称 their daughters女儿 Grace恩典,
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就好比基督教徒为自己女儿起名Grace(圣恩),
01:20
and Hindus印度教徒, my people, name名称 our daughters女儿 Bhakti巴克蒂,
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又好比我们印度教徒为自己女儿起名Bhakti(巴克缇),
01:24
which哪一个 means手段, in Sanskrit梵文, spiritual精神 worship崇拜.
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也就是梵语中精神崇拜的意思。
01:29
But there have always been, in Islam伊斯兰教, a small group,
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但在伊斯兰人群中,总是有一小群人,
01:32
a minority少数民族, who believe that jihad讨伐异教徒
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少数人,认为圣战
01:35
is not only an internal内部 struggle斗争 but also an external外部 struggle斗争
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不仅是内心的抗争,而是对外的斗争,
01:37
against反对 forces军队 that would threaten威胁 the faith信仰, or the faithulfaithul.
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用来对抗任何威胁到他们信仰,或者信众的力量。
01:44
And some of these people believe that in that struggle斗争,
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其中有些人还认为这样的斗争中,
01:47
it is sometimes有时 okay to take up arms武器.
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可以拿起武器。
01:51
And so the thousands数千 of young年轻 Muslim穆斯林 men男人
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于是数千名年轻的穆斯林
01:53
who flocked蜂拥而至 to Afghanistan阿富汗 in the 1980s
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在1980年代聚集到阿富汗
01:56
to fight斗争 against反对 the Soviet苏联 occupation占用 of a Muslim穆斯林 country国家,
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与占领穆斯林国家的苏联作战,
02:00
in their minds头脑 they were fighting战斗 a jihad讨伐异教徒,
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在他们心中,这才是圣战,
02:03
they were doing jihad讨伐异教徒,
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是护教战争,
02:05
and they named命名 themselves他们自己 the Mujahideen圣战者,
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他们把自己称为穆斯林圣战游击队,
02:08
which哪一个 is a word that comes from the same相同 root as jihad讨伐异教徒.
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用的就是和圣战(Jihad)一样的词根。
02:13
And we forget忘记 this now, but back then
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如今,我们已经忘记了这些,但是当年
02:16
the Mujahideen圣战者 were celebrated著名 in this country国家, in America美国.
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穆斯林圣战游击队在这个国家,在美国都受到颂扬。
02:19
We thought of them as holy warriors勇士 who were taking服用
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我们认为他们是与共产主义异教徒
02:22
the good fight斗争 to the ungodly恶人 communists共产主义者.
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进行正义战争的圣战勇士。
02:26
America美国 gave them weapons武器, gave them money,
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美国给枪,给钱,
02:28
gave them support支持, encouragement鼓励.
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给予他们支持与鼓励。
02:31
But within that group, a tiny, smaller group,
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但是就在这群人中,更小一小撮,
02:33
a minority少数民族 within a minority少数民族 within a minority少数民族,
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少之又少的一小撮,
02:37
were coming未来 up with a new and dangerous危险
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正在形成一个全新而危险的
02:40
conception概念 of jihad讨伐异教徒,
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圣战的概念,
02:43
and in time this group would come to be led by Osama乌萨马 bin箱子 Laden拉登,
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那个时候,这群人的领袖就是奥萨马本拉登。
02:48
and he refined精制 the idea理念.
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他重新定义了这个概念。
02:50
His idea理念 of jihad讨伐异教徒 was a global全球 war战争 of terror恐怖,
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他关于圣战的概念是全球的恐怖主义战争,
02:54
primarily主要 targeted针对 at the far enemy敌人,
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主要是针对自己的死敌,
02:57
at the crusaders十字军 from the West西, against反对 America美国.
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从十字军到西方世界,反对美国。
03:01
And the things he did in the pursuit追求 of this jihad讨伐异教徒
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他在追求圣战时的所作所为
03:04
were so horrendous可怕的, so monstrous滔天,
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令人发指,
03:07
and had such这样 great impact碰撞,
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并且影响力巨大,
03:09
that his definition定义 was the one that stuck卡住,
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他的定义不仅限于本地,
03:13
not just here in the West西.
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而且剑指西方世界。
03:14
We didn't know any better. We didn't pause暂停 to ask.
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我们对此知之甚少。我们也没有更多的关注。
03:18
We just assumed假定 that if this insane man and his psychopathic心理变态 followers追随者
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我们只是认为如果这个疯狂的人和他狂热的追随者
03:23
were calling调用 what they did jihad讨伐异教徒, then that's what jihad讨伐异教徒 must必须 mean.
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把他们的行为称为圣战,便以为圣战就是他们说的意思。
03:28
But it wasn't just us. Even in the Muslim穆斯林 world世界,
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但是,不光是我们,就是穆斯林世界,
03:31
his definition定义 of jihad讨伐异教徒 began开始 to gain获得 acceptance验收.
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他对于圣战的定义都开始得到认可。
03:36
A year ago I was in Tunis突尼斯, and I met会见 the imam阿訇
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一年以前我在突尼斯,我在一个很小的清真寺遇到了一个阿訇
03:39
of a very small mosque清真寺, an old man.
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一位老人。
03:41
Fifteen十五 years年份 ago, he named命名 his granddaughter孙女 Jihad讨伐异教徒,
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在十五年前,他给自己的孙女起名Jihad(圣战),
03:45
after the old meaning含义. He hoped希望 that a name名称 like that
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当然用的是原来的涵义。他希望这样的名字
03:48
would inspire启发 her to live生活 a spiritual精神 life.
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能够在孙女的精神世界鼓舞她。
03:52
But he told me that after 9/11,
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但是他告诉我,在911之后,
03:55
he began开始 to have second第二 thoughts思念.
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他想法变了。
03:58
He worried担心 that if he called her by that name名称,
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他担心如果他还叫她这个名字,
04:00
especially特别 outdoors在户外, outside in public上市,
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特别是在大庭广众之下叫,
04:02
he might威力 be seen看到 as endorsing赞同 bin箱子 Laden's拉登的 idea理念 of jihad讨伐异教徒.
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他可能会被认为是支持本拉登对圣战的理念。
04:08
On Fridays星期五 in his mosque清真寺, he gave sermons布道
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每个周五在他的清真寺,他布道的时候
04:11
trying to reclaim回收 the meaning含义 of the word,
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都试图重申这个词的原意,
04:15
but his congregants教徒, the people who came来了 to his mosque清真寺,
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但是他的教众,那些到清真寺来的人,
04:19
they had seen看到 the videos视频. They had seen看到 pictures图片
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他们都看到了那些视频。都看到了飞机撞向
04:21
of the planes飞机 going into the towers, the towers coming未来 down.
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世贸大厦,大厦倒塌的画面。
04:27
They had heard听说 bin箱子 Laden拉登 say that that was jihad讨伐异教徒,
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他们都听到本拉登把这个称为圣战,
04:30
and claimed声称 victory胜利 for it. And so the old imam阿訇 worried担心
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并称之为胜利。这位老人非常担心
04:33
that his words were falling落下 on deaf ears耳朵. No one was paying付款 attention注意.
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他自己的说法如对牛弹琴,无人注意。
04:37
He was wrong错误. Some people were paying付款 attention注意,
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但是他错了,人们认真聆听,
04:40
but for the wrong错误 reasons原因.
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但却是另有原因。
04:42
The United联合的 States状态, at this point, was putting pressure压力
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当时的美国,正在给阿拉伯国联盟国家,
04:45
on all its Arab阿拉伯 allies盟国, including包含 Tunisia突尼斯,
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包括突尼斯施加压力,
04:47
to stamp邮票 out extremism极端主义 in their societies社会,
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要求他们清除社会中的极端势力,
04:52
and this imam阿訇 found发现 himself他自己 suddenly突然 in the crosshairs十字线
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这位阿訇发现自己突然被突尼斯情报部门
04:55
of the Tunisian突尼斯人 intelligence情报 service服务.
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给盯上了。
04:58
They had never paid支付 him any attention注意 before --
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之前他们从来关注过
04:59
old man, small mosque清真寺 --
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这位老人,这么小的一个清真寺,
05:03
but now they began开始 to pay工资 visits访问,
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但是现在他们开始频繁拜访,
05:05
and sometimes有时 they would drag拖动 him in for questions问题,
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有时候还会拉着他问一些问题,
05:07
and always the same相同 question:
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其中总会有这个同样的问题:
05:08
"Why did you name名称 your granddaughter孙女 Jihad讨伐异教徒?
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为什么给你孙女起名叫Jihad(圣战)
05:12
Why do you keep using运用 the word jihad讨伐异教徒 in your Friday星期五 sermons布道?
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为什么在你周五布道是总是提到圣战这个词?
05:17
Do you hate讨厌 Americans美国人?
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你恨美国人吗?
05:19
What is your connection连接 to Osama乌萨马 bin箱子 Laden拉登?"
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你和奥萨马本拉登什么关系?
05:23
So to the Tunisian突尼斯人 intelligence情报 agency机构,
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在突尼斯情报部门看来,
05:25
and organizations组织 like it all over the Arab阿拉伯 world世界,
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或者在阿拉伯世界的类似机构看来,
05:28
jihad讨伐异教徒 equaled追平 extremism极端主义,
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圣战等同于极端主义,
05:32
Bin箱子 Laden's拉登的 definition定义 had become成为 institutionalized制度化.
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本拉登下的定义已经鸠占鹊巢。
05:36
That was the power功率 of that word that he was able能够 to do.
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这就是词汇的力量,也是他能做到的事情。
05:40
And it filled填充 this old imam阿訇, it filled填充 him with great sadness.
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这个让这位阿訇老人非常伤心。
05:46
He told me that, of bin箱子 Laden's拉登的 many许多 crimes犯罪, this was,
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他说,在他看来,没有引起足够关注的是,
05:49
in his mind心神, one that didn't get enough足够 attention注意,
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因为本拉登的罪恶行径,
05:52
that he took this word, this beautiful美丽 idea理念.
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这个词的美好涵义被剥夺。
05:55
He didn't so much appropriate适当 it as kidnapped绑架 it
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就好像这个词被绑架,
06:00
and debased贬值 it and corrupted损坏 it
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被糟蹋,或者被迫堕落一样
06:03
and turned转身 it into something it was never meant意味着 to be,
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变成了它从来不应该成为的东西,
06:06
and then persuaded说服了 all of us that it always was
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并且说服我们所有人,这个词从来就是
06:12
a global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒.
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全球性圣战的意思。
06:14
But the good news新闻 is
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但是好消息是
06:18
that the global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒 is almost几乎 over, as bin箱子 Laden拉登 defined定义 it.
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本拉登定义的全球性圣战这个概念已经终结。
06:24
It was dying垂死 well before he did,
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在他被击毙之前这个定义已经快要消亡了,
06:26
and now it's on its last legs.
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现在更是行将就木。
06:29
Opinion意见 polls民意调查 from all over the Muslim穆斯林 world世界 show显示
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在穆斯林中的调查显示
06:31
that there is very little interest利益 among其中 Muslims穆斯林
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在穆斯林当中对于西方世界,
06:36
in a global全球 holy war战争 against反对 the West西,
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对于死敌的全球性圣战
06:38
against反对 the far enemy敌人.
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已经没有什么市场了。
06:41
The supply供应 of young年轻 men男人 willing愿意 to fight斗争 and die for this cause原因 is dwindling日益减少.
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愿意为之战斗并献身的年轻人越来越少。
06:46
The supply供应 of money — just as important重要, more important重要 perhaps也许
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同样重要,甚至是也许更重要的,
06:48
the supply供应 of money to this activity活动 is also dwindling日益减少.
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是对于这种行为的资助也越来越少。
06:51
The wealthy富裕 fanatics狂热分子 who were previously先前
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那些之前资助这些活动的极端狂热的富翁们
06:54
sponsoring赞助 this kind of activity活动 are now less generous慷慨.
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也没有原来那么大方了。
07:00
What does that mean for us in the West西?
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这对我们西方来说意味着什么呢?
07:02
Does it mean we can break打破 out the champagne香槟酒,
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这是不是说我们就可以打开香槟,
07:06
wash our hands of it, disengage解开, sleep睡觉 easy简单 at night?
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洗洗手,放松下来,然后安心睡个好觉了?
07:11
No. Disengagement解脱 is not an option选项,
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放松是不行的,
07:16
because if you let local本地 jihad讨伐异教徒 survive生存,
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因为你如果让地区性圣战生存下来,
07:22
it becomes international国际 jihad讨伐异教徒.
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就会变成国际圣战。
07:25
And so there's now a lot of different不同
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而且,现在各种各样的
07:28
violent暴力 jihads圣战 all over the world世界.
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暴力圣战出现在世界各地。
07:30
In Somalia索马里, in Mali马里, in Nigeria尼日利亚,
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在索马里,在马里,在尼日利亚,
07:33
in Iraq伊拉克, in Afghanistan阿富汗, Pakistan巴基斯坦, there are groups that claim要求
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在伊拉克,在阿富汗,巴基斯坦,众多组织
07:38
to be the inheritors传承 of the legacy遗产 of Osama乌萨马 bin箱子 Laden拉登.
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继承了奥萨马本拉登的衣钵。
07:43
They use his rhetoric修辞.
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他们仍然运用他的伎俩。
07:45
They even use the brand name名称 he created创建 for his jihad讨伐异教徒.
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他们甚至就用他给自己的圣战所采用的名号。
07:50
So there is now an al Qaeda凯达 in the Islamic清真 Maghreb马格里布,
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在伊斯兰马格里布有个基地组织,
07:54
there's an al Qaeda凯达 in the Arabian阿拉伯 Peninsula半岛,
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在阿拉伯半岛有个基地组织,
07:56
there is an al Qaeda凯达 in Mesopotamia美索不达米亚.
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在美索不达米亚也有个基地组织。
07:58
There are other groups -- in Nigeria尼日利亚, Boko博科 Haram闺房,
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还有其他的组织,如尼日利亚的博科圣地组织,
08:00
in Somalia索马里, al Shabaab青年党 -- and they all pay工资 homage尊敬 to Osama乌萨马 bin箱子 Laden拉登.
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索马里的青年党,他们都宣布效忠奥萨马本拉登。
08:06
But if you look closely密切,
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但是如果你仔细研究,
08:08
they're not fighting战斗 a global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒.
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他们根本就不是所谓全球性圣战。
08:11
They're fighting战斗 battles战斗 over much narrower issues问题.
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他们都是为更小的一些事情而战。
08:15
Usually平时 it has to do with ethnicity种族 or race种族 or sectarianism宗派主义,
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通常都和民族,种族或教派之争相关,
08:20
or it's a power功率 struggle斗争.
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或者仅仅是权力斗争。
08:21
More often经常 than not, it's a power功率 struggle斗争
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通常都是一个国家,
08:23
in one country国家, or even a small region地区 within one country国家.
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甚至是某国局部地区的权力斗争。
08:26
Occasionally偶尔 they will go across横过 a border边境,
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有时他们也会跨越国境,
08:29
from Iraq伊拉克 to Syria叙利亚, from Mali马里 to Algeria阿尔及利亚,
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从伊拉克到叙利亚,从马里到阿尔及利亚,
08:36
from Somalia索马里 to Kenya肯尼亚, but they're not fighting战斗
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从索马里到肯尼亚,他们并不是
08:37
a global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒 against反对 some far enemy敌人.
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为反对远方的敌人而进行的圣战。
08:42
But that doesn't mean
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但是这并不意味着
08:46
that we can relax放松.
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我们可以放松
08:48
I was in Yemen也门 recently最近, where -- it's the home
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最近我在也门,在那里
08:50
of the last al Qaeda凯达 franchise专营权
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基地组织最后的分支
08:53
that still aspires渴望 to attack攻击 America美国, attack攻击 the West西.
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仍然叫嚣着要袭击美国,袭击西方。
08:58
It's old school学校 al Qaeda凯达.
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他们是基地组织的残余。
09:00
You may可能 remember记得 these guys.
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你们也许记得这些家伙。
09:01
They are the ones那些 who tried试着 to send发送 the underwear内衣 bomber轰炸机 here,
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他们是那些试图在这里发动人体爆炸那些人,
09:04
and they were using运用 the Internet互联网 to try and instigate
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他们利用互联网试图在美国的穆斯林中
09:07
violence暴力 among其中 American美国 Muslims穆斯林.
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煽动暴力。
09:09
But they have been distracted分心 recently最近.
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但是他们最近已经是散兵游勇。
09:11
Last year, they took control控制 over a portion一部分 of southern南部的 Yemen也门,
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去年,他们控制了南也门的部分地区,
09:13
and ran it, Taliban-style塔利班式.
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并用塔利班的方式进行统治。
09:16
And then the Yemeni也门 military军事 got its act法案 together一起,
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也门军方采取行动,
09:19
and ordinary普通 people rose玫瑰 up against反对 these guys
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普通群众奋起反抗这些人
09:22
and drove开车 them out, and since以来 then, most of their activities活动,
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并且把他们赶走,自此,他们他们大部分的活动,
09:26
most of their attacks攻击 have been directed针对 at Yemenis也门人.
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大部分的袭击都是针对也门人策划。
09:30
So I think we've我们已经 come to a point now where we can say
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我想我们现在可以得出一个结论
09:34
that, just like all politics政治, all jihad讨伐异教徒 is local本地.
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就是,和所有的政治一样,圣战也是地区性的事情。
09:37
But that's still not reason原因 for us to disengage解开,
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但是,这仍然不能成为我们松一口气的原因,
09:42
because we've我们已经 seen看到 that movie电影 before, in Afghanistan阿富汗.
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因为我们都看到了之前阿富汗的故事。
09:46
When those Mujahideen圣战者 defeated打败 the Soviet苏联 Union联盟,
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当那些穆斯林圣战游击队击败苏联,
09:49
we disengaged脱开.
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我们松了一口气。
09:52
And even before the fizz had gone走了 out of our celebratory庆祝 champagne香槟酒,
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但是我们庆祝的香槟还没开始起泡的时候,
09:59
the Taliban塔利班 had taken采取 over in Kabul喀布尔,
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塔利班接管了喀布尔,
10:02
and we said, "Local本地 jihad讨伐异教徒, not our problem问题."
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我们说:“地区性的圣战,没我们什么事。”
10:06
And then the Taliban塔利班 gave the keys按键 of Kandahar坎大哈
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接着,塔利班将奥萨马本拉登
10:09
to Osama乌萨马 bin箱子 Laden拉登. He made制作 it our problem问题.
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迎进坎大哈。我们的麻烦就来了。
10:11
Local本地 jihad讨伐异教徒, if you ignore忽视 it, becomes global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒 again.
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地区性圣战,如果我们忽视的话,就会再次演变成全球性圣战。
10:17
The good news新闻 is that it doesn't have to be.
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好在这个不会变成现实。
10:21
We know how to fight斗争 it now.
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因为我们现在知道如何应对。
10:23
We have the tools工具. We have the knowhow知识,
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我们有手段,我们有秘籍,
10:26
and we can take the lessons教训 we've我们已经 learned学到了
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我们能从以往应对
10:28
from the fight斗争 against反对 global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒, the victory胜利 against反对 global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒,
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和战胜全球性圣战中学习到很多,
10:31
and apply应用 those to local本地 jihad讨伐异教徒.
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并将之应用于地区性圣战。
10:35
What are those lessons教训? We know who killed杀害 bin箱子 Laden拉登:
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我们的学到了什么?我们知道谁杀了本拉登:
10:40
SEAL密封 Team球队 Six.
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海报突击队第六小队。
10:42
Do we know, do we understand理解, who killed杀害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism?
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我们知道,或者了解是谁清除了拉登主义吗?
10:46
Who ended结束 the global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒?
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谁终结了全球性的圣战?
10:49
There lie谎言 the answers答案 to the solution to local本地 jihad讨伐异教徒.
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解决地区性圣战的方法就在这些答案中。
10:53
Who killed杀害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism? Let's start开始 with bin箱子 Laden拉登 himself他自己.
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谁清除了拉登主义?我们从本拉登本人开始吧。
10:57
He probably大概 thought 9/11 was his greatest最大 achievement成就.
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他也许认为911是他最伟大的成就。
11:00
In reality现实, it was the beginning开始 of the end结束 for him.
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实际上,这是他末日的开始。
11:04
He killed杀害 3,000 innocent无辜 people, and that filled填充
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他剥夺了3000名无辜的生命,让穆斯林世界
11:07
the Muslim穆斯林 world世界 with horror恐怖 and revulsion厌恶,
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充满了恐怖和反感,
11:11
and what that meant意味着 was that his idea理念 of jihad讨伐异教徒
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这也就意味着他的圣战理念
11:14
could never become成为 mainstream主流.
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永远都不会成为主流。
11:16
He condemned谴责 himself他自己 to operating操作 on the lunatic疯子 fringes条纹
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他承认自己是本族群的
11:19
of his own拥有 community社区.
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极端份子。
11:23
9/11 didn't empower授权 him; it doomed注定 him.
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911并没有使他更强大,而是宣判了他的死亡。
11:29
Who killed杀害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism? Abu阿布 Musab·穆萨布 al-Zarqawi扎卡维 killed杀害 it.
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谁清除了拉登主义?是阿布.穆萨德.阿尔-扎卡维。
11:33
He was the especially特别 sadistic虐待狂 head of al Qaeda凯达 in Iraq伊拉克
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他是伊拉克基地组织的狂人领袖,
11:37
who sent发送 hundreds数以百计 of suicide自杀 bombers轰炸机 to attack攻击
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他在伊拉克制造了数以百计的自杀式爆炸
11:40
not Americans美国人 but Iraqis伊拉克人. Muslims穆斯林. Sunni逊尼派 as well as Shiites什叶派.
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伤害了伊拉克穆斯林,既有逊尼派也有什叶派,而不是美国人。
11:46
Any claim要求 that al Qaeda凯达 had to being存在 protectors保护 of Islam伊斯兰教
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任何声称基地组织是伊斯兰对抗
11:50
against反对 the Western西 crusaders十字军
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西方十字军的保护者说法
11:53
was drowned淹死的 in the blood血液 of Iraqi伊拉克人 Muslims穆斯林.
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都是在牺牲伊拉克穆斯林的鲜血。
11:59
Who killed杀害 Osama乌萨马 bin箱子 Laden拉登? The SEAL密封 Team球队 Six.
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谁杀死了奥萨马本拉登?海豹突击队第六小队。
12:02
Who killed杀害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism? Al Jazeera半岛电视台 did,
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谁清除了拉登主义?是半岛电视台,
12:05
Al Jazeera半岛电视台 and half a dozen other satellite卫星 news新闻 stations in Arabic阿拉伯,
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是半岛电视台和其他六家阿拉伯的卫星新闻台,
12:10
because they circumvented绕开 the old, state-owned国有
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因为他们完胜了许多这些国家中
12:13
television电视 stations in a lot of these countries国家
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的国有电视台,
12:17
which哪一个 were designed设计 to keep information信息 from people.
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这些国有电视台的目的就是为了对人民封锁消息。
12:20
Al Jazeera半岛电视台 brought information信息 to them, showed显示 them
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半岛电视台给他们带来信息,让他们看到
12:23
what was being存在 said and doneDONE in the name名称 of their religion宗教,
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以他们宗教的名义都说了些什么和做了些什么,
12:26
exposed裸露 the hypocrisy假意 of Osama乌萨马 bin箱子 Laden拉登 and al Qaeda凯达,
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揭露了本拉登和基地组织的伪善面目,
12:32
and allowed允许 them, gave them the information信息
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并让他们,通过给他们足够信息,
12:34
that allowed允许 them to come to their own拥有 conclusions结论.
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让他们能自己得出结论。
12:38
Who killed杀害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism? The Arab阿拉伯 Spring弹簧 did,
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谁清除了拉登主义?是阿拉伯之春,
12:41
because it showed显示 a way for young年轻 Muslims穆斯林
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因为他们给年轻的穆斯林展现了一条
12:45
to bring带来 about change更改
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带来改变的道路
12:49
in a manner方式 that Osama乌萨马 bin箱子 Laden拉登, with his
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这是奥萨马本拉登,在他有限想象力中,
12:50
limited有限 imagination想像力, could never have conceived设想.
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无法设想出来的。
12:54
Who defeated打败 the global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒? The American美国 military军事 did,
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谁战胜了全球性圣战?是美国的军队,
12:58
the American美国 soldiers士兵 did, with their allies盟国,
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美国的战士,和他们的盟友,
13:00
fighting战斗 in faraway远处 battlefields战场.
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他们在遥远的战场作战。
13:05
And perhaps也许, a time will come when they get the rightful合法的 credit信用 for it.
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也许,终有一天,他们会被歌颂。
13:10
So all these factors因素, and many许多 more besides除了,
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所有的这些以及其他的一些因素,
13:13
we don't even fully充分 understand理解 some of them yet然而,
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我们甚至目前还不能完全了解其中的一些,
13:16
these came来了 together一起
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加在一起
13:19
to defeat打败 a monstrosity怪物 as big as bin箱子 LadenismLadenism,
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战胜了拉登主义这样的巨型怪兽,
13:23
the global全球 jihad讨伐异教徒, you needed需要 this group effort功夫.
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对付全球性圣战,你就需要这样的团队合作。
13:27
Now, not all of these things will work in local本地 jihad讨伐异教徒.
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现在,应对地区性圣战,并非所有这些还能起作用。
13:29
The American美国 military军事 is not going to march游行 into Nigeria尼日利亚
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美国没打算出兵尼日利亚
13:32
to take on Boko博科 Haram闺房,
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来对抗博科圣地组织,
13:35
and it's unlikely不会 that SEAL密封 Team球队 Six will rappel登山运动
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看来也不会有海豹突击队第六小队破门而入
13:36
into the homes家园 of al Shabaab's青年党 leaders领导者 and take them out.
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力擒青年军的首领。
13:41
But many许多 of these other factors因素 that were in play
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但是某些其他因素
13:45
are now even stronger than before. Half the work is already已经 doneDONE.
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却比以前更强大。很多工作已经完成过半。
13:50
We don't have to reinvent重塑 the wheel.
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我们不需要另起炉灶。
13:53
The notion概念 of violent暴力 jihad讨伐异教徒 in which哪一个 more Muslims穆斯林 are killed杀害
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那种让更多穆斯林被杀的暴力圣战的理念
13:57
than any other kind of people is already已经 thoroughly discredited扫地.
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不再被人相信。
14:00
We don't have to go back to that.
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我们不需要回到起点。
14:04
Satellite卫星 television电视 and the Internet互联网 are informing通知
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卫星电视和互联网让更多的年轻穆斯林
14:08
and empowering授权 young年轻 Muslims穆斯林 in exciting扣人心弦 new ways方法.
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通过崭新的途径获取信息,获得力量。
14:13
And the Arab阿拉伯 Spring弹簧 has produced生成 governments政府,
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阿拉伯之春之后诞生了许多政府,
14:15
many许多 of them Islamist伊斯兰 governments政府,
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许多伊斯兰政府,
14:18
who know that, for their own拥有 self-preservation自保,
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他们知道,出于自我保护,
14:21
they need to take on the extremists极端分子 in their midstsmidsts.
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他们要反对内部的极端分子。
14:27
We don't need to persuade说服 them, but we do need to help them,
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我们不必游说他们,但是我们需要帮助他们,
14:30
because they haven't没有 really come to this place地点 before.
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因为他们没有足够的经验。
14:35
The good news新闻, again, is that a lot of the things they need
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再说一遍,好消息是他们需要的许多东西
14:39
we already已经 have, and we are very good at giving:
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已经有,我们乐意奉送:
14:42
economic经济 assistance帮助, not just money, but expertise专门知识,
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经济援助,不仅仅是钱,而且包括专业知识,
14:46
technology技术, knowhow知识,
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技术,诀窍,
14:48
private私人的 investment投资, fair公平 terms条款 of trade贸易,
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私人投资,公平贸易,
14:52
medicine医学, education教育, technical技术 support支持 for training训练
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医药,教育,以及能让提高警察能力的训练
14:57
for their police警察 forces军队 to become成为 more effective有效,
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方面的技术支持,
15:00
for their anti-terror反恐 forces军队 to become成为 more efficient高效.
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使他们的反恐力量更加高效。
15:05
We've我们已经 got plenty丰富 of these things.
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我们有足够的这些东西。
15:06
Some of the other things that they need
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他们需要的其他东西
15:08
we're not very good at giving. Maybe nobody没有人 is.
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我们无法给予。也许没人能给。
15:12
Time, patience忍耐, subtlety明敏, understanding理解 --
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时间,耐心,细致,理解,
15:17
these are harder更难 to give.
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这些更难给予。
15:19
I live生活 in New York纽约 now. Just this week,
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我现在住在纽约。就在这周,
15:21
posters海报 have gone走了 up in subway地铁 stations in New York纽约
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纽约地铁站的海报刚贴出来,
15:24
that describe描述 jihad讨伐异教徒 as savage野蛮人.
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海报仍然把圣战描述为残忍的东西。
15:30
But in all the many许多 years年份 that I have covered覆盖 the Middle中间 East,
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但是在中东往来这么多年,
15:34
I have never been as optimistic乐观 as I am today今天
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我从来没有如现在这般乐观,
15:37
that the gap间隙 between之间 the Muslim穆斯林 world世界 and the West西
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穆斯林和西方世界的鸿沟
15:41
is narrowing变窄 fast快速,
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正在迅速缩小,
15:43
and one of the many许多 reasons原因 for my optimism乐观
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我之所以这么乐观的原因之一
15:45
is that, because I know there are millions百万,
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就是我知道数以百万计的人,
15:48
hundreds数以百计 of millions百万 of people, Muslims穆斯林 like that old imam阿訇
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数以亿计的人,就像突尼斯那位阿訇老人
15:52
in Tunis突尼斯, who are reclaiming回收 this word
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这样的穆斯林,正在让这个词
15:59
and restoring恢复 to its original原版的, beautiful美丽 purpose目的.
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回归本源,回归美好的目标。
16:04
Bin箱子 Laden拉登 is dead. Bin箱子 LadenismLadenism has been defeated打败.
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本拉登死了,拉登主义被击败了。
16:07
His definition定义 of jihad讨伐异教徒 can now be expunged擦去.
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他对圣战的定义现在可以被抹去。
16:11
To that jihad讨伐异教徒 we can say, "Goodbye再见. Good riddance甩掉包袱."
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对于这样的圣战,我们可以说:“再见了,谢天谢地!”
16:16
To the real真实 jihad讨伐异教徒 we can say, "Welcome欢迎 back. Good luck运气."
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对真正的圣战,我们可以说“欢迎回来,祝你好运!”
16:22
Thank you. (Applause掌声)
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谢谢。(鼓掌)
Translated by Amily shaw
Reviewed by Claire Lu

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Bobby Ghosh - Editor
Bobby Ghosh is the Managing Editor at Quartz.

Why you should listen

Bobby Ghosh was the longest serving print journalist in Iraq until he left in 2007 to become Time's World Editor. Formerly an editor-at-large for Time, his work encompasses his broad interests, from restaurant reviews to an extended interview with Egyptian president Mohammad Morsi for his latest cover story. He recently went on patrol in Yemen to view what many hope is the end of the transnational al-Qaeda movement. Ghosh is now the Managing Editor of Quartz.

To explore more of the ideas in Ghosh's talk, read his recent essay for Time Worldwide: "11 Years After 9/11, the Holy World War Is Over and All Jihad is Local" >>

 
More profile about the speaker
Bobby Ghosh | Speaker | TED.com