TED2014
Barry Schwartz: The way we think about work is broken
巴里·舒瓦茨: 被毁掉的工作观
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是什么让工作带来满足感？巴里·舒瓦茨认为，除了薪水外，工作还能带给我们许多无形的价值，而这些无形价值恰恰是我们当前的工作观所忽视的。不要再把工人们当作机器上的齿轮了。
Barry Schwartz - Psychologist
Barry Schwartz studies the link between economics and psychology, offering startling insights into modern life. Lately, working with Ken Sharpe, he's studying wisdom. Full bio
Barry Schwartz studies the link between economics and psychology, offering startling insights into modern life. Lately, working with Ken Sharpe, he's studying wisdom. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Today I'm going to talk about work.
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今天我要谈一谈工作。
00:15
And the question I want to ask
and answer is this:
and answer is this:
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我想跟大家一起讨论的问题是：
00:18
"Why do we work?"
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“我们为什么要工作？”
00:21
Why do we drag ourselves
out of bed every morning
out of bed every morning
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为什么我们每天早上
要挣扎着起床（去上班）
要挣扎着起床（去上班）
00:25
instead of living our lives
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而不是享受生活，
00:27
just filled with bouncing from one
TED-like adventure to another?
TED-like adventure to another?
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让我们的人生充满
一个个像TED大会这样美妙的经历呢？
一个个像TED大会这样美妙的经历呢？
00:32
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:34
You may be asking yourselves
that very question.
that very question.
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你们也许也有同样的疑问吧。
00:37
Now, I know of course,
we have to make a living,
we have to make a living,
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当然，我理解，我们要维持生计，
00:39
but nobody in this room thinks
that that's the answer to the question,
that that's the answer to the question,
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但我相信，在座的各位不会认为
“维持生计”是问题的答案，
“维持生计”是问题的答案，
00:43
"Why do we work?"
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“我们为什么要工作？”
00:44
For folks in this room,
the work we do is challenging,
the work we do is challenging,
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对于在座的各位，工作是充满挑战的，
00:48
it's engaging, it's stimulating,
it's meaningful.
it's meaningful.
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它是迷人，刺激，富有意义的。
00:52
And if we're lucky,
it might even be important.
it might even be important.
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如果我们幸运的话，
它甚至可能不可或缺。
它甚至可能不可或缺。
00:55
So, we wouldn't work
if we didn't get paid,
if we didn't get paid,
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因此，如果没有薪水，
我们就不会工作，
我们就不会工作，
00:57
but that's not why we do what we do.
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但这还不是主要原因。
01:00
And in general,
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通常情况下，
01:01
I think we think that material rewards
are a pretty bad reason
are a pretty bad reason
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我们认为物质奖励并不是
01:04
for doing the work that we do.
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我们工作的好理由。
01:06
When we say of somebody
that he's "in it for the money,"
that he's "in it for the money,"
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当我们说某人“做这个只是为了钱”的时候
01:10
we are not just being descriptive.
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背后的含义大家懂的。
01:13
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:14
Now, I think this is totally obvious,
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我想这很显而易见吧，
01:16
but the very obviousness of it
raises what is for me
raises what is for me
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但正因为显而易见，反而带来一个
01:19
an incredibly profound question.
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极其深刻的问题。
01:21
Why, if this is so obvious,
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为什么，尽管这很明显，
01:24
why is it that for the overwhelming
majority of people on the planet,
majority of people on the planet,
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为什么地球上绝大多数的人
01:30
the work they do
has none of the characteristics
has none of the characteristics
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都在做一些极其无聊的工作，
01:34
that get us up and out of bed
and off to the office every morning?
and off to the office every morning?
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无聊到让我们甚至没有动力
从床上爬起来去上班呢？
从床上爬起来去上班呢？
01:38
How is it that we allow
the majority of people on the planet
the majority of people on the planet
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而我们又为什么会允许大多数人
01:42
to do work that is monotonous,
meaningless and soul-deadening?
meaningless and soul-deadening?
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去做乏味、无意义且让人麻木的工作呢？
01:47
Why is it that as capitalism developed,
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为什么资本主义一直在发展，
01:50
it created a mode of production,
of goods and services,
of goods and services,
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它创造出来的生产、商品和服务模式，
01:53
in which all the nonmaterial satisfactions
that might come from work were eliminated?
that might come from work were eliminated?
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反倒将工作带来的精神满足感损失殆尽呢？
02:00
Workers who do this kind of work,
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从事这种工作的工人，
02:02
whether they do it in factories,
in call centers,
in call centers,
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不管是在工厂，客服中心，
02:05
or in fulfillment warehouses,
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还是在仓库，
02:07
do it for pay.
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工作就是为了赚钱。
02:09
There is certainly no other earthly reason
to do what they do except for pay.
to do what they do except for pay.
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除此之外再无其他理由。
02:15
So the question is, "Why?"
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那么问题来了，“为什么呢？”
02:18
And here's the answer:
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我认为答案是这样：
02:20
the answer is technology.
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是技术。
02:23
Now, I know, I know --
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哦，我知道了，我明白了——
02:24
yeah, yeah, yeah, technology, automation
screws people, blah blah --
screws people, blah blah --
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是的，没错，技术、自动化毁了人类，
诸如此类陈词滥调——
诸如此类陈词滥调——
02:28
that's not what I mean.
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我想说的并不是这个。
02:29
I'm not talking about
the kind of technology
the kind of technology
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我所指的技术，
02:32
that has enveloped our lives,
and that people come to TED to hear about.
and that people come to TED to hear about.
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并不是那些已经进入我们生活的，
我们在TED演讲中能听到的技术。
我们在TED演讲中能听到的技术。
02:36
I'm not talking about
the technology of things,
the technology of things,
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我说的并不是实物科技，
02:39
profound though that is.
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尽管实物科技也很深奥。
02:41
I'm talking about another technology.
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我指的是另一种技术。
02:43
I'm talking about the technology of ideas.
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是关于思想的技术。
02:47
I call it, "idea technology" --
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我称之为“思维技术”——
02:49
how clever of me.
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机智如我。
02:50
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
02:52
In addition to creating things,
science creates ideas.
science creates ideas.
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除了创造事物，科学也创造思想。
02:56
Science creates ways of understanding.
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科学创造理解方式。
02:59
And in the social sciences,
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在社会科学中，
03:01
the ways of understanding that get created
are ways of understanding ourselves.
are ways of understanding ourselves.
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被创造出来的理解方式
成为了我们了解自身的途径。
成为了我们了解自身的途径。
03:06
And they have an enormous influence
on how we think, what we aspire to,
on how we think, what we aspire to,
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它们极大的影响了我们的思维方式、
我们的追求
我们的追求
03:10
and how we act.
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和我们的行为方式。
03:12
If you think your poverty
is God's will, you pray.
is God's will, you pray.
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如果你觉得贫穷
是上帝的旨意，那你便会祈祷。
是上帝的旨意，那你便会祈祷。
03:16
If you think your poverty is the result
of your own inadequacy,
of your own inadequacy,
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如果你觉得贫穷
是因为自己不够好，
是因为自己不够好，
03:20
you shrink into despair.
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你便会陷入绝望。
03:23
And if you think your poverty is
the result of oppression and domination,
the result of oppression and domination,
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如果你觉得贫穷
是压迫和统治造成的，
是压迫和统治造成的，
03:27
then you rise up in revolt.
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那你就会造反。
03:29
Whether your response to poverty
is resignation or revolution,
is resignation or revolution,
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你对贫穷的反应是认命还是革命，
03:34
depends on how you understand
the sources of your poverty.
the sources of your poverty.
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取决于你如何理解贫穷的原因。
03:37
This is the role that ideas play
in shaping us as human beings,
in shaping us as human beings,
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这就是思想在将我们塑造
成人类过程中所起的作用，
成人类过程中所起的作用，
03:43
and this is why idea technology may be
the most profoundly important technology
the most profoundly important technology
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这就是为什么思维技术
也许是科学赋予我们的
也许是科学赋予我们的
03:49
that science gives us.
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最重要的技术。
03:51
And there's something special
about idea technology,
about idea technology,
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思维技术有它的特别之处，
03:55
that makes it different
from the technology of things.
from the technology of things.
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这也使其同实物技术有所区别。
03:58
With things, if the technology sucks,
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如果实物技术很烂，
04:01
it just vanishes, right?
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就会遭到淘汰，对吧？
04:04
Bad technology disappears.
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糟糕的技术会消失。
04:06
With ideas --
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而在思想方面——
04:08
false ideas about human beings
will not go away
will not go away
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关于人类的错误思想并不会消失，
04:13
if people believe that they're true.
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只要人们觉得对，就不会消失。
04:16
Because if people believe
that they're true,
that they're true,
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因为只要有人觉得这些思想是正确的，
04:19
they create ways of living
and institutions
and institutions
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那他们就会创造出
相应的生活方式和制度，
相应的生活方式和制度，
04:22
that are consistent
with these very false ideas.
with these very false ideas.
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来与这些错误思想保持一致。
04:26
And that's how the industrial revolution
created a factory system
created a factory system
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工业革命就是这么创造出工厂体制的，
04:30
in which there was really nothing you
could possibly get out of your day's work,
could possibly get out of your day's work,
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在这体制下，你工作一整天后
04:34
except for the pay at the end of the day.
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除了钱什么也得不到。
04:37
Because the father --
one of the fathers
one of the fathers
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因为工业革命之父——
04:39
of the Industrial Revolution,
Adam Smith --
Adam Smith --
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工业革命之父之一，亚当·史密斯，
04:41
was convinced that human beings
were by their very natures lazy,
were by their very natures lazy,
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他相信人天生就是懒惰的，
04:45
and wouldn't do anything
unless you made it worth their while,
unless you made it worth their while,
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如果你不让他们觉得值，
他们宁愿闲着什么也不做，
他们宁愿闲着什么也不做，
04:48
and the way you made it worth their while
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怎么让他们觉得值呢？
04:50
was by incentivizing,
by giving them rewards.
by giving them rewards.
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就是激励他们，给他们报酬。
04:53
That was the only reason
anyone ever did anything.
anyone ever did anything.
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这是任何人做任何事的唯一原因。
04:56
So we created a factory system consistent
with that false view of human nature.
with that false view of human nature.
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于是我们基于对人性的
错误认识建立了工厂体系。
错误认识建立了工厂体系。
05:01
But once that system
of production was in place,
of production was in place,
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但这种生产制度一旦建立，
05:04
there was really no other way
for people to operate,
for people to operate,
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人们就别无选择了，
05:07
except in a way that was consistent
with Adam Smith's vision.
with Adam Smith's vision.
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只能选择与亚当·史密斯
的观点相符的（工作）方式。
的观点相符的（工作）方式。
05:12
So the work example is merely an example
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错误的理论能创造出
05:15
of how false ideas
can create a circumstance
can create a circumstance
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（与之相适应的）状况，最终自圆其说，
05:19
that ends up making them true.
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工作只是其中一个例子。
05:23
It is not true
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但我不认为
05:25
that you "just can't get
good help anymore."
good help anymore."
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我们“已经走投无路了”。
05:29
It is true
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我认为，
05:31
that you "can't get good help anymore"
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只有当人们被迫从事
05:34
when you give people work to do
that is demeaning and soulless.
that is demeaning and soulless.
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缺乏尊严又单调乏味的工作时，
才真是“已经走投无路了”。
才真是“已经走投无路了”。
05:39
And interestingly enough, Adam Smith --
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有趣的是，亚当·史密斯——
05:41
the same guy who gave us
this incredible invention
this incredible invention
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正是这个为我们发明了
05:45
of mass production, and division of labor
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大规模生产和劳动分工的人
05:47
-- understood this.
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——理解这一点。
05:48
He said, of people who worked
in assembly lines,
in assembly lines,
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他形容那些在生产线上工作的，
05:52
of men who worked
in assembly lines, he says:
in assembly lines, he says:
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进行流水作业的人，他说：
05:54
"He generally becomes as stupid as it is
possible for a human being to become."
possible for a human being to become."
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“他能变得要多愚蠢有多愚蠢。”
06:01
Now, notice the word here is "become."
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大家注意他用的词是“变”。
06:03
"He generally becomes as stupid as it is
possible for a human being to become."
possible for a human being to become."
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“他能变得要多愚蠢有多愚蠢。”
06:09
Whether he intended it or not,
what Adam Smith was telling us there,
what Adam Smith was telling us there,
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不管是否是有意的，
亚当·史密斯告诉我们的就是，
亚当·史密斯告诉我们的就是，
06:13
is that the very shape of the institution
within which people work
within which people work
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正是这种工作体制
06:17
creates people who are fitted
to the demands of that institution
to the demands of that institution
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创造出适合这一体制需求的人们，
06:21
and deprives people of the opportunity
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并且让人们没有办法
06:24
to derive the kinds of satisfactions
from their work that we take for granted.
from their work that we take for granted.
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从工作中获得满足感，
而获得满足感本应是理所当然的。
而获得满足感本应是理所当然的。
06:29
The thing about science --
natural science --
natural science --
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科学的好处——我是指自然科学——
06:32
is that we can spin fantastic
theories about the cosmos,
theories about the cosmos,
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在于我们能创造关于宇宙的奇妙理论，
06:36
and have complete confidence
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而且还完全不必担心
06:38
that the cosmos is completely
indifferent to our theories.
indifferent to our theories.
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宇宙会因我们的理论产生变化。
06:43
It's going to work the same damn way
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不管我们如何解释宇宙，
06:45
no matter what theories
we have about the cosmos.
we have about the cosmos.
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它还是会照常运转下去。
06:48
But we do have to worry about
the theories we have of human nature,
the theories we have of human nature,
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但关于人类本性的理论，
我们就要十分谨慎了，
我们就要十分谨慎了，
06:54
because human nature will be changed
by the theories we have
by the theories we have
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因为那些原本用来揭示人性，
帮助我们理解人性的理论，
帮助我们理解人性的理论，
06:59
that are designed to explain
and help us understand human beings.
and help us understand human beings.
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是会反过来改变人性的。
07:03
The distinguished anthropologist,
Clifford Geertz, said, years ago,
Clifford Geertz, said, years ago,
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著名的人类学家
克利福德·格尔茨多年前说过，
克利福德·格尔茨多年前说过，
07:08
that human beings
are the "unfinished animals."
are the "unfinished animals."
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人类是“未塑造好的动物。”
07:12
And what he meant by that
was that it is only human nature
was that it is only human nature
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他的意思是，只有人性
07:16
to have a human nature
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只有人类的人性
07:18
that is very much the product
of the society in which people live.
of the society in which people live.
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正是人类所生活的社会的产物。
07:23
That human nature,
that is to say our human nature,
that is to say our human nature,
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这种人性，也就是说我们的人性，
07:26
is much more created
than it is discovered.
than it is discovered.
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与其说是被发现的，
不如说是被创造的。
不如说是被创造的。
07:30
We design human nature
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人性是由我们设计的，
07:32
by designing the institutions
within which people live and work.
within which people live and work.
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我们通过设计人类生活和
工作的机制来设计人性。
工作的机制来设计人性。
07:37
And so you people --
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所以在座的各位——
07:38
pretty much the closest I ever get
to being with masters of the universe --
to being with masters of the universe --
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你们差不多是宇宙中我能遇见的
最聪明的一群人——
最聪明的一群人——
07:43
you people should be asking
yourself a question,
yourself a question,
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当你们回去继续当老板时，
07:47
as you go back home
to run your organizations.
to run your organizations.
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你们应该问自己一个问题。
07:50
Just what kind of human nature
do you want to help design?
do you want to help design?
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那就是，你们想要设计出什么样的人性？
07:54
Thank you.
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谢谢。
07:55
(Applause)
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（掌声）
07:57
Thanks.
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谢谢。
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Barry Schwartz - PsychologistBarry Schwartz studies the link between economics and psychology, offering startling insights into modern life. Lately, working with Ken Sharpe, he's studying wisdom.
Why you should listen
In his 2004 book The Paradox of Choice, Barry Schwartz tackles one of the great mysteries of modern life: Why is it that societies of great abundance — where individuals are offered more freedom and choice (personal, professional, material) than ever before — are now witnessing a near-epidemic of depression? Conventional wisdom tells us that greater choice is for the greater good, but Schwartz argues the opposite: He makes a compelling case that the abundance of choice in today's western world is actually making us miserable.
Infinite choice is paralyzing, Schwartz argues, and exhausting to the human psyche. It leads us to set unreasonably high expectations, question our choices before we even make them and blame our failures entirely on ourselves. His relatable examples, from consumer products (jeans, TVs, salad dressings) to lifestyle choices (where to live, what job to take, who and when to marry), underscore this central point: Too much choice undermines happiness.
Schwartz's previous research has addressed morality, decision-making and the varied inter-relationships between science and society. Before Paradox he published The Costs of Living, which traces the impact of free-market thinking on the explosion of consumerism -- and the effect of the new capitalism on social and cultural institutions that once operated above the market, such as medicine, sports, and the law.
Both books level serious criticism of modern western society, illuminating the under-reported psychological plagues of our time. But they also offer concrete ideas on addressing the problems, from a personal and societal level.
Schwartz is the author of the TED Book, Why We Work.
Barry Schwartz | Speaker | TED.com