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Jean-Paul Mari: The chilling aftershock of a brush with death
让-保罗 马力: 与死亡轻触后的冰冷余震
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2003年4月，美国军队驻进巴格达不久之后，一颗导弹击中了作家、战地记者让-保罗 马力所在的大楼。他在那里与死亡面对面，从那以后他开始研究那种从古代战争中就开始缠绕着那些参战者的噩梦。“到底这种能够致死却不留下任何痕迹的东西是什么？”马力问道。我们一般用创伤后应激障碍定义它（PTSD)--或者，马力这样描述，一次对死亡空虚的经历。这次探索里，他寻求有关灾后余伤和死亡率、精神疾病等问题的答案。
Jean-Paul Mari - Journalist and psychologist
Jean-Paul Mari has reported on conflicts in more than three dozen countries. Full bio
Jean-Paul Mari has reported on conflicts in more than three dozen countries. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
It was April 8, 2003.
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2003年4月8日。
00:17
I was in Baghdad,
covering the war in Iraq.
covering the war in Iraq.
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我在巴格达，报道伊拉克战争。
00:22
That day, Americans tanks
started arriving in Baghdad.
started arriving in Baghdad.
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在那天，美国坦克进入巴格达。
00:28
We were just a few journalists
in the Palestine Hotel,
in the Palestine Hotel,
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而当时我们只是住在巴勒斯坦酒店的几个新闻工作者，
00:35
and, as happens in war,
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战争正在打响，
00:37
the fighting began to approach
outside our windows.
outside our windows.
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对我们来说，战事开始逼近我们的窗外。
00:42
Baghdad was covered
in black smoke and oil.
in black smoke and oil.
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巴格达被黑雾和汽油掩盖。
00:46
It smelled awful.
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气味十分难闻
00:48
We couldn't see a thing,
but we knew what was happening.
but we knew what was happening.
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虽然什么都看不到，但我们知道发生了什么。
00:50
Of course, I was supposed
to be writing an article,
to be writing an article,
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那时我当然应该在写报道
00:53
but that's how it always goes --
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但事态总是这样--
00:54
you're supposed to be writing
and something big happens.
and something big happens.
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你应该在写报道，然后大事发生了。
00:57
So I was in my room on the 16th floor,
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所以当时我在16楼的房间里，
01:00
writing and looking out the window
every now and then
every now and then
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一边写一边不时走到窗前
01:03
to see what was happening.
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看看外面在发生什么事。
01:05
Suddenly, there was a huge explosion.
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而就此时，突然发生了巨大的爆炸，
01:07
During the previous three weeks,
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在之前3个星期里，
01:09
there had been shelling
with half-ton missiles,
with half-ton missiles,
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那里有大约半吨导弹弹壳，
01:13
but this time, the shock --
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但是这次震动--
01:16
I felt it inside of me,
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我从体内感觉到它，
01:19
and I thought, "It's very close.
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我想，“这离我太近了。
01:21
It's very, very close."
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真的非常，非常近。”
01:23
So I went down to see what was happening.
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所以我下楼去看发生了什么事。
01:25
I went down to the 15th floor
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我到了15楼
01:29
to take a look.
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四下看看。
01:31
And I saw people, journalists,
screaming in the hallways.
screaming in the hallways.
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我看到很多人，记者们，在走廊里尖叫。
01:34
I walked into a room
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我走进一个房间里
01:36
and realized that it had
been hit by a missile.
been hit by a missile.
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意识到那里被导弹袭击了。
01:42
Someone had been wounded.
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有人受伤了。
01:45
There was a man near the window,
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有一个人靠在窗边，
01:47
a cameraman named Taras Protsyuk,
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他是一个叫塔拉斯 普罗斯特斯雅克的摄像师，
01:52
lying face-down.
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面向地面躺着。
01:58
Having worked in a hospital before,
I wanted to help out.
I wanted to help out.
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因为我在医院工作过，我希望能够帮助。
02:02
So I turned him over.
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我把他翻过来。
02:04
And when I turned him over,
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在我这样做的时候，
02:08
I noticed that he was open
from sternum to pubis,
from sternum to pubis,
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我注意到他的身体从胸骨到趾骨都伤裂了，
02:11
but I couldn't see anything,
nothing at all.
nothing at all.
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但是我什么也没有发现，什么也没有。
02:14
All I saw was a white, pearly,
shiny spot that blinded me,
shiny spot that blinded me,
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我能看见的，只是一个白色，珍珠一样闪光的斑点，无法直视，
02:21
and I didn't understand what was going on.
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而且我也并不明白到底发生了什么。
02:23
Once the spot disappeared
and I could see his wound,
and I could see his wound,
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污点消退后，我能看到他的伤口，
02:26
which was very serious,
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伤得非常严重，
02:28
my buddies and I put a sheet
underneath him,
underneath him,
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我和我的同伴在他身体底下面了一张床单，
02:30
and we carried him onto an elevator
that stopped at each of the 15 floors.
that stopped at each of the 15 floors.
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我们把他抬进电梯间，下降过程中在每层楼都停了一次。
02:34
We put him in a car
that took him to the hospital.
that took him to the hospital.
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我们把他送进车里，然后把他送去了医院。
02:36
He died on the way to the hospital.
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他在去医院的路上死了。
02:38
The Spanish cameraman José Couso,
who was on the 14th floor and also hit --
who was on the 14th floor and also hit --
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当时住在14楼的西班牙摄影师何塞 库索，也遭遇轰炸--
02:43
because the shell had exploded
between the two floors --
between the two floors --
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因为当时炸弹在两层楼中间爆炸--
02:47
died on the operating table.
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他死在手术台上。
02:49
As soon as the car left, I went back.
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车开走了以后，我回到酒店里。
02:51
There was that article
I was supposed to write --
I was supposed to write --
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当时有一篇我要交的报道--
02:53
which I had to write.
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我应该写稿。
02:56
And so --
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所以--
02:57
I returned to the hotel lobby
with my arms covered in blood,
with my arms covered in blood,
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我回到酒店大堂，双臂沾满鲜血，
03:04
when one of the hotel gofers stopped me
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一名酒店勤杂工拦住我
03:07
and asked me to pay the tax
I hadn't paid for 10 days.
I hadn't paid for 10 days.
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让我缴纳10天没交的税款。
03:11
I told him to get lost.
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我叫他到别的地方去。
03:13
And I said to myself:
"Clear your head, put it all aside.
"Clear your head, put it all aside.
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然后我对自己说：“让自己清醒，别被影响。
03:19
If you want to write,
you need to put it all aside."
you need to put it all aside."
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如果你想继续写稿，就要放下这件事。”
03:21
And that's what I did.
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我就这么做了。
03:22
I went upstairs, wrote
my article and sent it off.
my article and sent it off.
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我走上楼，写完了报道，交了出去。
03:27
Later, aside from the feeling
of having lost my colleagues,
of having lost my colleagues,
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后来，除了一种失去同事的感觉，
03:31
something else was bothering me.
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我还觉得被别的什么困扰。
03:34
I kept seeing that shiny, pearly spot,
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我总是看见那个珍珠一样闪光的斑点，
03:40
and I couldn't understand what it meant.
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我不懂那代表着什么意思。
03:43
And then, the war was over.
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后来，战争结束了。
03:48
Later, I thought: "That's not possible.
I can't just not know what happened."
I can't just not know what happened."
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后来我想：“不可能啊，我不可能不知道发生了什么。”
03:54
Because it wasn't the first time,
and it didn't only happen to me.
and it didn't only happen to me.
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因为那不仅是第一回，也不仅发生在我身上。
03:58
I have seen things like that
happen to others
happen to others
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在我20到35年的记者生涯中，
04:02
in my 20 to 35 years of reporting.
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我见过别人身上发生这样的事。
04:04
I have seen things
that had an effect on me too.
that had an effect on me too.
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我也见过对我造成影响的事。
04:08
For example, there was this man
I knew in Lebanon,
I knew in Lebanon,
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比如说我以前认识一个黎巴嫩
04:11
a 25-year-old veteran
who had been fighting for five years --
who had been fighting for five years --
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25岁的退伍军人，当过5年兵--
04:14
a real veteran -- who we would
follow everywhere.
follow everywhere.
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一个真正的老兵--我们一路跟着他。
04:16
He would crawl in the dark
with confidence --
with confidence --
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他能自信地在黑暗中摸索前进--
04:20
he was a great soldier, a true soldier --
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他是一个伟大的士兵，一个真正的士兵--
04:23
so we would follow him,
knowing that we would be safe with him.
knowing that we would be safe with him.
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所以我们跟着他，因为跟着他很安全。
04:26
And one day, as I was told --
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有一天，我被告知--
04:28
and I've seen him again since --
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而且后来我还见过他--
04:30
he was back in the camp, playing cards,
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他回到营地，在玩牌，
04:32
when someone came in next door,
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有人从隔壁进来，
04:36
and discharged their weapon.
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卸下他们的武器。
04:38
As the gun went off,
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枪击开始后，
04:39
that blast, that one shot,
made him duck quickly under the table,
made him duck quickly under the table,
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那声爆炸，那一击，让他快速藏到桌子下面，
04:46
like a child.
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像个小孩。
04:47
He was shaking, panicking.
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他颤抖着，十分震惊。
04:49
And since then, he has never
been able to get up and fight.
been able to get up and fight.
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从那以后，他再也不能重新起来战斗。
04:54
He ended up working as a croupier
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后来他做了赌场管理
04:56
in a Beirut casino
where I later found him,
where I later found him,
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后来我是在一个贝鲁特赌场里找到他的，
04:59
because he couldn't sleep,
so it was quite a suitable job.
so it was quite a suitable job.
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因为他容易失眠，那正好是一个合适的工作。
05:02
So I thought to myself,
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我就想，
05:04
"What is this thing that can kill you
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“到底是什么可以杀死你
05:08
without leaving
any visible scars?
any visible scars?
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却不留任何痕迹？
05:12
How does that happen?
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这是怎么发生的？
05:16
What is this unknown thing?"
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这种未知的东西到底是什么？”
05:19
It was too common to be coincidental.
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这比巧合寻常多了。
05:23
So I started to investigate --
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所以我开始研究--
05:25
that's all I know how to do.
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这是我力所能及的。
05:27
I started to investigate
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我开始做调查
05:29
by looking through books,
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寻找书目，
05:32
reaching out to psychiatrists,
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探访心理医师，
05:35
going to museums, libraries, etc.
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去博物馆，图书馆，等等。
05:38
Finally, I discovered
that some people knew about this --
that some people knew about this --
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终于，我发现有些人了解这个--
05:42
often military psychiatrists --
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大部分是军中心理医师--
05:44
and that what we were dealing with
was called trauma.
was called trauma.
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我们讨论的现象称为（心理）创伤。
05:49
Americans call it PTSD
or traumatic neurosis.
or traumatic neurosis.
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在美国它被称作PTSD，或者创伤性神经症。
05:54
It was something
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这是一种
05:58
that existed,
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存在的现象，
06:00
but that we never spoke about.
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只是我们从来不公开讨论它。
06:04
So, this trauma --
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所以，这种创伤--
06:06
what is it?
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到底是什么？
06:07
Well, it's an encounter with death.
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它是一次与死亡的接触。
06:11
I don't know if you've ever had
an experience with death --
an experience with death --
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我不知道你们有没有与死亡接触的经历。
06:13
I'm not talking about dead bodies,
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我不是说（接触）尸体，
06:15
or someone's grandfather
lying in a hospital bed,
lying in a hospital bed,
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不是说谁的爷爷躺在医院病床上，
06:19
or someone who got hit by a car.
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也不是说哪个遭遇过车祸的人。
06:24
I'm talking about facing
the void of death.
the void of death.
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我说的是面对死亡的空虚感。
06:29
And that is something
no one is supposed to see.
no one is supposed to see.
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这是任何人都不应该接触到的。
06:35
People used to say,
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人们曾说，
06:37
"Neither the sun, nor death
can be looked at with a steady eye."
can be looked at with a steady eye."
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“死亡和阳光都不能用肉眼直视。”
06:41
A human being should not
have to face the void of death.
have to face the void of death.
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一个人不应该去面对死亡的空虚感。
06:46
But when that happens,
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但是当它发生的时候，
06:49
it can remain invisible for a while --
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它可能会潜伏一段时间--
06:53
days, weeks, months, sometimes years.
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几天，几个星期，几个月甚至几年。
06:56
And then, at some point,
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然后在某一时间，
06:59
it explodes,
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它会爆发，
07:00
because it's something
that has entered your brain --
that has entered your brain --
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因为它已经进入你的大脑--
07:04
a sort of window between an image
and your mind --
and your mind --
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它好比一个图像和你的意识之间的窗户，
07:09
that has penetrated your brain,
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渗透到你的脑子里，
07:11
staying there and taking up
all the space inside.
all the space inside.
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留在那里，占据里面的空间。
07:17
And there are people --
men, women,
men, women,
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里面有人--男人，女人，
07:20
who suddenly no longer sleep.
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突然不再沉睡。
07:24
And they experience
horrible anxiety attacks --
horrible anxiety attacks --
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他们经历严重的焦虑发作--
07:26
panic attacks, not just minor fears.
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焦虑发作，不仅仅是一般的恐惧。
07:29
They suddenly don't want to sleep,
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他们会突然不想睡觉，
07:32
because when they do, they have
the same nightmare every night.
the same nightmare every night.
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因为他们睡觉的话，每晚会做相同的噩梦。
07:36
They see the same image every night.
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他们每晚都看见相同的场景。
07:38
What type of image?
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什么样的画面？
07:40
For example, a soldier
who enters a building
who enters a building
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举个例子，一个士兵进入大楼
07:43
and comes face to face
with another soldier aiming at him.
with another soldier aiming at him.
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和另一个正在瞄准他的士兵面对面。
07:45
He looks at the gun,
straight down the barrel.
straight down the barrel.
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他看了看枪，顺枪筒而下。
07:48
And this barrel suddenly
becomes enormous, deformed.
becomes enormous, deformed.
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这个枪筒突然变大，变畸形。
07:52
It becomes fluffy, swallowing everything.
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它变得毛茸茸，吞噬一切。
07:54
And he says --
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然后他说--
07:58
later he will say, "I saw death.
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他会说，“我看见了死亡。
08:00
I saw myself dead, therefore I'm dead."
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我看见我死了，所以我死了。”
08:03
And from then on, he knows he is dead.
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从此以后，他知道他死了。
08:07
It is not a perception --
he is convinced that he is dead.
he is convinced that he is dead.
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这不是一种知觉，他确信他已经死了。
08:12
In reality, someone came in,
the guy left or didn't shoot, whatever,
the guy left or didn't shoot, whatever,
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但现实中，有人走进来，又出去了，没有开枪之类的
08:15
and he didn't actually get shot --
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他也没有真正被击中--
08:17
but to him, he died in that moment.
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但是对他来说，他在那一刻已经死了。
08:19
Or it can be the smell
of a mass grave --
of a mass grave --
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可能是一种集体坟墓的气味--
08:21
I saw a lot of that in Rwanda.
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我在卢旺达见过很多。
08:23
It can be the voice of a friend calling,
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可能是一个朋友的呼喊声，
08:27
and they're being slaughtered
and there's nothing you can do.
and there's nothing you can do.
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他正在被屠杀，你却什么也做不了。
08:30
You hear that voice,
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你会听见那个声音，
08:32
and you wake up every night --
for weeks, months --
for weeks, months --
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然后你每晚都会惊醒，几个星期，甚至几个月--
08:37
in a trance-like state,
anxious and terrified,
anxious and terrified,
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在恍惚里，焦虑又恐惧，
08:40
like a child.
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就像个小孩。
08:41
I have seen men cry --
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我见过男人哭--
08:44
just like children --
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就像小孩一样--
08:46
from seeing the same image.
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因为总是看见那种同样的画面。
08:48
So having that image
of horror in your brain,
of horror in your brain,
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所以那种恐怖的画面在脑海里，
08:54
seeing the void of death --
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看见那种死亡的空虚--
08:56
that analogue of horror
which is hiding something --
which is hiding something --
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和恐惧相似，在隐藏着某些事物--
09:00
will completely take over.
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它会完全占领你。
09:01
You cannot do anything, anything at all.
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你什么也做不了。
09:03
You cannot work anymore,
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你也不能工作了，
09:05
you cannot love anymore.
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也不能去爱。
09:06
You go home and don't recognize anyone.
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你回到家，但谁也不认识。
09:08
You don't even recognize yourself.
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2007
你甚至不认识自己。
09:13
You hide and don't leave the house,
you lock yourself in, you become ill.
you lock yourself in, you become ill.
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你躲在房子里不出门，把自己关起来，变得病态。
09:16
I know people who placed small cans
outside their house with coins inside,
outside their house with coins inside,
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我知道有的人把装满硬币的小罐子放在门外，
09:21
in case someone tried to get in.
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为了防止有人想进入。
09:23
All of a sudden, you feel
like you want to die or kill
like you want to die or kill
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突然，你觉得你想死或者杀人
09:25
or hide or run away.
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或者藏起来，或者逃走。
09:27
You want to be loved,
but you hate everyone.
but you hate everyone.
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你希望被爱，但你恨每一个人。
09:29
It's a feeling that seizes you entirely
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这种感觉完全侵略你
09:34
day in and day out,
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从早到晚，
09:36
and you suffer tremendously.
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你承受着巨大的痛苦。
09:41
And no one understands.
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而且没有任何人理解。
09:42
They say, "There's nothing wrong with you.
You seem fine, you have no injuries.
You seem fine, you have no injuries.
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别人会说，“你什么事都没有。你看起来很好，没有受伤。
09:46
You went to war, came back; you're fine."
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你去了战场，安全归来，你没事的。”
09:50
These people suffer tremendously.
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这些人遭受巨大的痛苦。
09:52
Some commit suicide.
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有些会自杀。
09:54
After all, suicide is like updating
your daily planner --
your daily planner --
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总之，自杀只不过像在记事本里写下新的一行一--
09:56
I'm already dead,
I might as well commit suicide.
I might as well commit suicide.
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我既然已经死了，何不干脆自杀。
09:59
Plus, there is no more pain.
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而且，这样就没有痛苦了。
10:01
Some commit suicide,
others end up under the bridge, drinking.
others end up under the bridge, drinking.
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有的人选择自杀，有的人酗酒流浪到桥下。
10:05
Everyone remembers
that grandfather or uncle or neighbor
that grandfather or uncle or neighbor
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每个人都记得自己的一位的爷爷，叔叔或者邻居
10:09
who used to drink, never said a word,
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1970
曾经酗酒，什么都不说
10:11
always in a bad mood, beat his wife
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总是发脾气，会打老婆
10:13
and who would end up either sinking
into alcoholism or dying.
into alcoholism or dying.
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最终他们不是沉迷于酒精就是死了。
10:17
And why do we not talk about this?
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我们为什么不讨论这些呢？
10:20
We don't talk about it because it's taboo.
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不讨论它是因为这是禁忌话题。
10:24
It's not like we don't have the words
to express the void of death.
to express the void of death.
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不是说我们无法用词形容死亡的空虚感。
10:27
But others don't want hear it.
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但别人根本不想听。
10:29
The first time I returned
from an assignment,
from an assignment,
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我第一次完成任务回来的时候，
10:31
They said, "Oh! He's back."
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别人都说，“哦！他回来了。”
10:33
There was a fancy dinner --
white tablecloth, candles, guests.
white tablecloth, candles, guests.
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他们举行了丰盛的晚宴-- 白桌布，烛光，客人。
10:36
"Tell us everything!"
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“把一切都告诉我们！”
10:37
Which I did.
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于是我说了。
10:40
After 20 minutes, people
were giving me dirty looks,
were giving me dirty looks,
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20分钟后，人们开始用肮脏的眼神看我，
10:42
the hostess had her nose in the ashtray.
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2005
女主人把鼻子低到了烟灰缸里。
10:44
It was horrible and I realized
I ruined the whole evening.
I ruined the whole evening.
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情况惨不忍睹，我意识到我扫了大家的兴。
10:47
So I don't talk about it anymore.
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1909
所以我就再也不说了。
10:49
We're just not ready to listen.
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1541
我们只是没有做好倾听的准备。
10:51
People say outright: "Please, stop."
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人们直接说：“请别说了。”
10:52
Is that a rare occurrence?
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这是偶然现象吗？
10:54
No, it's extremely common.
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2402
不是，这非常常见。
10:57
One third of the soldiers
who died in Iraq --
who died in Iraq --
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2153
1/3在伊拉克战死的士兵--
10:59
well, not "died," let me re-phrase that --
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不应该说是“战死”，让我重新组织一下语言--
11:02
one third of the US soldiers
who went to Iraq
who went to Iraq
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1/3去了伊拉克的美国士兵
11:05
suffer from PTSD.
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遭受PTSD的折磨。
11:06
In 1939, there were still 200,000 soldiers
from the First World War
from the First World War
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1939年，仍然有200000名一战士兵
11:12
that were being treated
in British psychiatric hospitals.
in British psychiatric hospitals.
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在英国精神病院接受治疗。
11:17
In Vietnam, 54,000 people died --
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2434
在越南，54000人死亡--
11:19
Americans.
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1343
美国人。
11:20
In 1987, the US government
identified 102,000 --
identified 102,000 --
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4173
1987年，美国政府认证了102000名
11:25
twice as many --
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1214
是两倍的人数(和越南相比）--
11:26
102,000 veterans who died
from committing suicide.
from committing suicide.
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2624
102000名老兵用自杀结束了生命。
11:28
Twice as many deaths by suicide
than by combat in Vietnam.
than by combat in Vietnam.
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2816
是在越南战场上牺牲的士兵的两倍。
11:31
So you see, this relates to everything,
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3158
所以你看，它们都可以联系起来，
11:34
not just modern warfare,
but also ancient wars --
but also ancient wars --
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2339
不仅仅是在现代战争里，古代战争也是--
11:37
you can read about it,
the evidence is there.
the evidence is there.
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你可以阅读文献资料，也会看到相应的线索。
11:40
So why do we not talk about it?
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2245
所以我们为什么不说呢？
11:42
Why have we not talked about it?
225
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2445
我们为什么没有讨论过它？
11:45
The problem is that
if you don't talk about it,
if you don't talk about it,
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问题是你如果不讨论它，
11:50
you're heading for disaster.
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1595
那么你就会走向灾难。
11:53
The only way to heal --
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2815
唯一可以治愈的方法--
11:56
and the good news here
is that this is treatable --
is that this is treatable --
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而且好消息是这是可以被治愈的--
12:00
think Munch's The Scream, Goya, etc. --
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2071
想想呐喊（油画），格雅（音乐），等等。--
12:02
it's indeed treatable.
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这绝对是可以治愈的。
12:04
The only way to heal from this trauma,
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能治愈这种创伤的唯一方法，
12:08
from this encounter with death
that overwhelms, petrifies and kills you
that overwhelms, petrifies and kills you
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5056
（治愈）这种和死亡的偶遇，压垮你和震惊你的东西，
12:13
is to find a way to express it.
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就是找一种方法表达出来。
12:18
People used to say,
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1739
人们曾说，
12:20
"Language is the only thing
that holds all of us together."
that holds all of us together."
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“语言是唯一把我们团结起来的东西。”
12:23
Without language, we're nothing.
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2341
如果没有语言，我们就什么也不是。
12:26
It's the thing that makes us human.
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2617
这是让我们成为人类的东西。
12:28
In the face of such a horrible image --
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1977
在这样恐怖的场景面前--
12:30
a wordless image of oblivion
that obsesses us --
that obsesses us --
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一个无声的，被遗忘的场景，却纠缠着我们--
12:36
the only way to cope with it
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唯一能对抗它的方法
12:40
is to put human words to it.
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2101
就是用人类的语言来表述它。
12:42
Because these people
feel excluded from humanity.
feel excluded from humanity.
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因为这些人觉得自己被排除在人性之外。
12:44
No one wants to see them anymore
and they don't want to see anyone.
and they don't want to see anyone.
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人们都不愿意看他们，他们也不愿意看自己。
12:47
They feel dirty, defiled, ashamed.
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2421
他们觉得自己肮脏，污秽，羞愧。
12:50
Someone said, "Doctor,
I don't use the subway anymore
I don't use the subway anymore
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3244
有个人说，“医生，我再也不坐地铁了
12:53
because I'm afraid people
will see the horror in my eyes."
will see the horror in my eyes."
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3214
因为我害怕别人会从我眼睛里看出恐惧。”
12:56
Another guy thought he had
a terrible skin disease
a terrible skin disease
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2866
另一个人以为他患了严重的皮肤病
12:59
and spent six months with dermatologists,
going from doctor to doctor.
going from doctor to doctor.
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然后花了6个月寻访了许多皮肤病医生。
13:03
And then one day, they sent him
to a psychiatrist.
to a psychiatrist.
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2539
后来有一天，他们把他送到一位精神治疗师那里。
13:06
During his second session,
he told the psychiatrist
he told the psychiatrist
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第二次疗程中，他告诉那个精神治疗师
13:08
he had a terrible skin disease
from head to toe.
from head to toe.
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他从头到脚都感染了严重的皮肤病。
13:10
The psychiatrist asked,
"Why are you in this state?"
"Why are you in this state?"
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医生问他，“你为什么会有这样的现状？”
13:13
And the man said, "Well, because
I'm dead, so I must be rotting away."
I'm dead, so I must be rotting away."
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3326
他说，“嗯，因为我已经死了，所以我应该正在腐烂。”
13:17
So you see this is something
that has a profound effect on people.
that has a profound effect on people.
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由此可见，这是对人们有深远影响的事情。
13:21
In order to heal,
we need to talk about it.
we need to talk about it.
256
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2409
为了让创伤痊愈，我们需要说出它们。
13:24
The horror needs to be put into words --
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这种恐惧需要用语言表达出来--
13:28
human words, so we can organize it
and talk about it again.
and talk about it again.
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4183
人类的语言，让我们能组织它，能表达它。
13:32
We have to look death in the face.
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我们需要直视死亡。
13:37
And if we can do that,
if we can talk about these things,
if we can talk about these things,
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如果我们可以这样做，如果我们可以讨论这些事，
13:42
then step by step,
by working it out verbally,
by working it out verbally,
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3425
那么逐渐用语言来解决，
13:45
we can reclaim our place in humanity.
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我们可以重新我们在开拓人道主义中的领地。
13:49
And it is important.
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1264
这很重要。
13:50
Silence kills us.
264
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1688
沉默将毁灭我们。
13:53
So what does this mean?
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1422
所以这到底意味着什么？
13:55
It means that after a trauma,
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2016
这意味着在一次创伤以后，
13:57
without question, we lose
our "unbearable lightness of being,"
our "unbearable lightness of being,"
267
825275
3635
毫无疑问，我们失去那种”生命不能承受之轻“的感觉，
14:00
that sense of immortality
that keeps us here --
that keeps us here --
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2754
那种使我们伫立在这里的，不朽的意识--
14:03
meaning, if we're here, we almost feel
like we're immortal, which we're not,
like we're immortal, which we're not,
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这意味着，我们的存在让我们几乎觉得这是不朽的，虽然并不是这样，
14:07
but if we didn't believe that,
we'd say, "What's the point of it all?"
we'd say, "What's the point of it all?"
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3343
但我们并不相信，我们会说，”那这一切又有什么意义呢？“
14:11
But trauma survivors have lost
that feeling of immortality.
that feeling of immortality.
271
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2790
但创伤的生还者丢失了那种不朽的感觉。
14:13
They've lost their lightness.
272
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1395
他们失去了生命的轻快感。
14:15
But they have found something else.
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1739
但他们却发现了别的东西。
14:17
So this means that if we manage
to look death in the face,
to look death in the face,
274
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3260
所以这意味着如果我们能直面死亡，
14:21
and actually confront it,
rather than keep quiet and hide,
rather than keep quiet and hide,
275
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4902
和它对峙，而不是隐藏和保持沉默，
14:26
like some of the men or women I know did,
276
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2479
就像我知道的一些男人女人那样，
14:28
such as Michael from Rwanda,
Carole from Iraq, Philippe from the Congo
Carole from Iraq, Philippe from the Congo
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6654
例如卢旺达的麦克，伊拉克的卡罗尔，刚果的菲利普
14:35
and other people I know,
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1226
还有一些其他人，
14:36
like Sorj Chalandon, now a great writer,
279
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2098
比如索亚 夏隆冬，他现在是位有名的作家，
14:39
who gave up field assignments
after a trauma.
after a trauma.
280
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2291
他在一次灾难以后放弃了现场作业。
14:41
Five friends of mine committed suicide,
281
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2218
我有五个朋友选择了自杀，
14:43
they're the ones
who did not survive the trauma.
who did not survive the trauma.
282
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2576
他们是那些没有从灾难中生还的人。
14:46
So if we can look death in the face,
283
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5546
所以我们如果可以直面死亡，
14:51
if we, mortal humans, human mortals,
284
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2778
如果我们，平凡的人类，人类的平凡，
14:54
understand that we are human
and mortal, mortal and human,
and mortal, mortal and human,
285
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2841
能够理解我们只是人类，生命平凡而且有限，
14:57
if we can confront death
and identify it once again
and identify it once again
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6247
如果我们能够直面死亡，并且重新定义它，
15:03
as the most mysterious place
of all mysterious places,
of all mysterious places,
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3063
理解这是在所有神秘的处境之中最为神秘的处境，
15:07
since no one has ever seen it --
288
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2556
因为没有人曾经见过它--
15:10
if we can give it back this meaning,
289
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2663
如果我们能重新将这层意义附加于（死亡），
15:12
yes, we may die,
290
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2841
是的，我们可能会死亡，
15:17
survive
291
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1595
会生还
15:20
and come back to life,
292
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1427
然后重新回到生活中，
15:21
but we'll come back stronger than before.
293
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3093
但当我们回来的时候我们会比从前更加坚强
15:24
Much stronger.
294
912579
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更加强大。
15:25
Thank you.
295
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1154
谢谢各位。
15:27
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jean-Paul Mari - Journalist and psychologistJean-Paul Mari has reported on conflicts in more than three dozen countries.
Why you should listen
Journalist and international correspondent, psychologist and physiotherapist, Jean-Paul Mari published several hundred reports abroad and several works.
He produced a documentary, Irak: quand les soldats meurent (Iraq, wen the soldiers die), as well as a movie, Sans blessures apparentes (Without Visible Wounds), based on his book of the same name, for which he won the 2010 Grand Prix et le Prix du Public. In 2009, he was the recipient of the Grand prix des lectrices de Elle
He is the creator and the manager of grands-reporters.com and has just published a novel, La Tentation d'Antoine (The Temptation of Antoine).
Jean-Paul Mari | Speaker | TED.com