Mission Blue II
Paul Greenberg: The four fish we're overeating -- and what to eat instead
保罗·格林伯格: 我们吃得过多的四种鱼 -- 应该改成吃什么
Filmed:
Readability: 3.9
1,595,957 views
为了生产我们喜欢的鲑鱼、鲔鱼和虾等海产品，渔业已经对海洋构成了巨大威胁。保罗·格林伯格分析了海产品经济的规模和不合理性，并建议了几种具体的改变途径，以保护自然环境和以渔业为生的人们。
Paul Greenberg - Author
Paul Greenberg researches and writes about fish, aquaculture and the future of the ocean. Full bio
Paul Greenberg researches and writes about fish, aquaculture and the future of the ocean. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So when I was a kid ...
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在我小时候，
它们是我的玩伴。
00:15
this was my team.
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（笑声）
00:16
(Laughter)
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我运动很差，
00:17
I stunk at sports.
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我既不喜欢玩，也不喜欢看，
00:19
I didn't like to play them,
I didn't like to watch them.
I didn't like to watch them.
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所以我玩的就是这个，钓鱼。
00:22
So this is what I did. I went fishing.
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从小到大，我在康涅狄格州的水边钓鱼，
00:25
And for all of my growing up
I fished on the shores of Connecticut,
I fished on the shores of Connecticut,
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这些生物都是我经常见到的。
00:28
and these are the creatures
that I saw on a regular basis.
that I saw on a regular basis.
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00:32
But after I grew up and went to college,
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但我长大后，上了大学，
00:35
and I came home in the early 90's,
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后来在1990年代初回到家乡时，
我看到的只剩这些。
00:37
this is what I found.
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我的玩伴变少了，
00:39
My team had shrunk.
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这种感觉真就像
自己的最佳阵容全部报销了。
自己的最佳阵容全部报销了。
00:41
It was like literally having
your roster devastated.
your roster devastated.
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当我开始思考这件事，
00:44
And as I sort of looked into that,
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完全从一个钓鱼者的个人角度来看，
00:46
from a very personal
point of view as a fisherman,
point of view as a fisherman,
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我开始想弄明白，
00:48
I started to kind of figure out,
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好吧，世界上其他人是怎么想的？
00:50
well, what was the rest of the world
thinking about it?
thinking about it?
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首先我去看的地方是鱼市。
00:53
First place I started to look
was fish markets.
was fish markets.
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当我前往鱼市，
00:55
And when I went to fish markets,
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不管是在哪里--
00:57
in spite of where I was --
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无论是在北卡罗来纳州、还是巴黎、
还是伦敦或者别的地方--
还是伦敦或者别的地方--
00:58
whether I was in North Carolina,
or Paris, or London, or wherever --
or Paris, or London, or wherever --
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我不断看到四种生物组成的奇怪景像，
01:02
I kept seeing this weirdly
repeating trope of four creatures,
repeating trope of four creatures,
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一次又一次--
01:07
again and again --
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在菜单上，在冰上--
01:08
on the menus, on ice --
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虾、鲔鱼、鲑鱼和鳕鱼。
01:10
shrimp, tuna, salmon and cod.
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我觉得这样相当奇怪，
01:13
And I thought this was pretty strange,
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看着它们，我就在想，
01:15
and as I looked at it, I was wondering,
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难道没有别人注意到
市面上的品种在减少吗？
市面上的品种在减少吗？
01:17
did anyone else notice
this sort of shrinking of the market?
this sort of shrinking of the market?
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嗯，随着我更深入的了解，
01:21
Well, when I looked into it,
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我发现到人们并没有把它们
看作活生生的伙伴，
看作活生生的伙伴，
01:22
I realized that people
didn't look at it as their team.
didn't look at it as their team.
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普通人眼里的海产品是这样的。
01:25
Ordinary people, the way they looked
at seafood was like this.
at seafood was like this.
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把自然世界缩减到
极少的几种要素，
极少的几种要素，
01:29
It's not an unusual human characteristic
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倒也没有违反人类本性。
01:31
to reduce the natural world
down to very few elements.
down to very few elements.
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我们以前就干过，
一万年前，我们走出洞穴时。
一万年前，我们走出洞穴时。
01:35
We did it before, 10,000 years ago,
when we came out of our caves.
when we came out of our caves.
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如果看一下一万年前的篝火遗迹，
01:38
If you look at fire pits
from 10,000 years ago,
from 10,000 years ago,
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可以看到浣熊，可以看到狼，
01:41
you'll see raccoons,
you'll see, you know, wolves,
you'll see, you know, wolves,
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可以看到各种不同的生物。
01:44
you'll see all kinds
of different creatures.
of different creatures.
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但当你把目光转向两千年前，
01:46
But if you telescope to the age of --
you know, 2,000 years ago,
you know, 2,000 years ago,
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你会看到这四种哺乳动物：
01:49
you'll see these four mammals:
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猪、牛、绵羊和山羊。
01:51
pigs, cows, sheep and goats.
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鸟类也一样。
01:54
It's true of birds, too.
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如果看看纽约餐馆的菜单，
01:55
You look at the menus
in New York City restaurants
in New York City restaurants
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在150年前、200年前，
01:58
150 years ago, 200 years ago,
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可以看到鹬、山鹬、松鸡、
几十种鸭和几十种鹅。
几十种鸭和几十种鹅。
02:00
you'll see snipe, woodcock, grouse,
dozens of ducks, dozens of geese.
dozens of ducks, dozens of geese.
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而继续把目光转向现代畜牧业的时代，
02:05
But telescope ahead to the age
of modern animal husbandry,
of modern animal husbandry,
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则会看到四种：
02:07
and you'll see four:
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火鸡、鸭、鸡和鹅。
02:09
turkeys, ducks, chicken and geese.
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02:12
So it makes sense
that we've headed in this direction.
that we've headed in this direction.
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所以才说，
我们朝着减少市面品种的方向发展。
我们朝着减少市面品种的方向发展。
但我们是怎么朝这个方向走的？
02:15
But how have we headed in this direction?
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嗯……
02:17
Well ...
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首先这是个非常非常新的问题。
02:18
first it's a very, very new problem.
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这是过去50年间，
我们在海洋里捕鱼的方式。
我们在海洋里捕鱼的方式。
02:20
This is the way we've been fishing
the oceans over the last 50 years.
the oceans over the last 50 years.
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二战极大地刺激了我们
升级装备来向鱼类开战。
升级装备来向鱼类开战。
02:23
World War II was a tremendous incentive
to arm ourselves in a war against fish.
to arm ourselves in a war against fish.
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我们在二战期间完善的所有技术--
02:29
All of the technology
that we perfected during World War II --
that we perfected during World War II --
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声纳、轻巧的聚合物--
02:32
sonar, lightweight polymers --
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所有这些都转而用来对付鱼类。
02:34
all these things
were redirected towards fish.
were redirected towards fish.
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所以你可以看到捕捞量的惊人增长，
02:36
And so you see this tremendous buildup
in fishing capacity,
in fishing capacity,
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从二战结束至今 ，
足足翻了两番。
足足翻了两番。
02:39
quadrupling in the course of time,
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02:41
from the end of World War II
to the present time.
to the present time.
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02:44
And right now that means
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那么现在，这就意味着
我们每年从海洋里捞出八、九千万吨鱼类，
02:45
we're taking between 80 and 90 million
metric tons out of the sea every year.
metric tons out of the sea every year.
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这相当于每年从海里捞出，
02:49
That's the equivalent
of the human weight of China
of the human weight of China
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全体中国人的重量。
02:52
taken out of the sea every year.
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我用中国作例子并非巧合，
02:54
And it's no coincidence
that I use China as the example
that I use China as the example
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因为中国现在是世界最大的渔业国。
02:57
because China is now
the largest fishing nation in the world.
the largest fishing nation in the world.
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嗯，这才是故事的一半，
03:00
Well, that's only half the story.
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故事的另一半，
03:01
The other half of the story
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是水产养殖业的惊人发展，
03:03
is this incredible boom
in fish farming and aquaculture,
in fish farming and aquaculture,
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现在，也就是在过去一两年，
03:07
which is now, only
in the last year or two,
in the last year or two,
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已经超过了野生鱼类的捕捞量。
03:09
starting to exceed the amount
of wild fish that we produce.
of wild fish that we produce.
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所以如果把捕捞和养殖的鱼类加在一起，
03:12
So that if you add wild fish
and farmed fish together,
and farmed fish together,
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每年海洋里产出全体中国人总重量的两倍。
03:16
you get the equivalent
of two Chinas created from the ocean
of two Chinas created from the ocean
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03:20
each and every year.
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再说一次，我用中国作例子并非巧合，
03:21
And again, it's not a coincidence
that I use China as the example,
that I use China as the example,
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因为中国不光是最大的捕鱼国，
03:24
because China, in addition
to being the biggest catcher of fish,
to being the biggest catcher of fish,
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也是最大的水产养殖国。
03:27
is also the biggest farmer of fish.
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03:30
So let's look though at the four choices
we are making right now.
we are making right now.
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让我们看看我们制造出来的四个选项。
第一个--
03:35
The first one --
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目前在美国和西方大部分国家里
消费最广泛的海产品是
消费最广泛的海产品是
03:36
by far the most consumed seafood
in America and in much of the West,
in America and in much of the West,
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虾。
03:40
is shrimp.
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野生的虾--
需要捕捞--
需要捕捞--
03:41
Shrimp in the wild --
as a wild product --
as a wild product --
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作为渔业产品非常糟糕。
03:44
is a terrible product.
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要向市场提供一磅虾，通常会杀死
5、10、甚至15磅的野生鱼类。
5、10、甚至15磅的野生鱼类。
03:45
5, 10, 15 pounds of wild fish
are regularly killed
are regularly killed
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03:49
to bring one pound of shrimp
to the market.
to the market.
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而且捕虾业的燃油经济性也极差。
03:52
They're also incredibly fuel inefficient
to bring to the market.
to bring to the market.
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达尔豪西大学最近进行的一项研究显示，
03:55
In a recent study that was produced
out of Dalhousie University,
out of Dalhousie University,
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拖网捕虾
是二氧化碳排放最高的捕鱼方式之一。
是二氧化碳排放最高的捕鱼方式之一。
03:58
it was found that dragging for shrimp
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04:00
is one of the most carbon-intensive
ways of fishing that you can find.
ways of fishing that you can find.
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04:04
So you can farm them,
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当然虾也可以养殖，
也的确有人养殖，
04:06
and people do farm them,
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他们通常在这类区域大量养殖。
04:07
and they farm them a lot
in this very area.
in this very area.
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问题是--
04:09
Problem is ...
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养虾的地方在这些野生栖息地里--
04:10
the place where you farm shrimp
is in these wild habitats --
is in these wild habitats --
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在红树林里。
04:14
in mangrove forests.
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看看这些往下生长的树根，
04:15
Now look at those lovely
roots coming down.
roots coming down.
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是它们在固定土壤，
04:17
Those are the things
that hold soil together,
that hold soil together,
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保护海滩，
为所有小鱼小虾创造了栖息地，
为所有小鱼小虾创造了栖息地，
04:19
protect coasts, create habitats
for all sorts of young fish, young shrimp,
for all sorts of young fish, young shrimp,
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保护了所有这些对环境非常重要的事物。
04:23
all sorts of things
that are important to this environment.
that are important to this environment.
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这个，就是许多沿海红树林所面临的问题。
04:26
Well, this is what happens
to a lot of coastal mangrove forests.
to a lot of coastal mangrove forests.
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过去30、40年间，
我们损失了数百万英亩的沿海红树林。
我们损失了数百万英亩的沿海红树林。
04:29
We've lost millions of acres
of coastal mangroves
of coastal mangroves
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04:31
over the last 30 or 40 years.
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破坏速度虽然已经下降，
04:32
That rate of destruction has slowed,
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但红树林的总量仍然严重不足。
04:35
but we're still
in a major mangrove deficit.
in a major mangrove deficit.
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04:38
The other thing that's going on here
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这里还有另一个问题，
就是电影制片人马克·本杰明所说的
"碾碎海洋生物"现象。
"碾碎海洋生物"现象。
04:40
is a phenomenon that the filmmaker
Mark Benjamin called "Grinding Nemo."
Mark Benjamin called "Grinding Nemo."
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04:44
This phenomenon is very, very relevant
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你在热带珊瑚礁所看到的一切
都和这个现象高度相关。
都和这个现象高度相关。
04:47
to anything that you've ever seen
on a tropical reef.
on a tropical reef.
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因为现在正在发生的是，
04:49
Because what's going on right now,
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捕虾船开过来捕虾，
04:51
we have shrimp draggers
dragging for shrimp,
dragging for shrimp,
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会捕到大量的副产品，
04:53
catching a huge amount of bycatch,
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这些副产品会被磨碎，
变成虾的饲料。
变成虾的饲料。
04:55
that bycatch in turn gets ground up
and turned into shrimp food.
and turned into shrimp food.
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有的时候，许多这种船--
04:59
And sometimes, many of these vessels --
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都是奴工在工作--
05:01
manned by slaves --
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来捕捞这些所谓的“垃圾鱼类”，
05:03
are catching these so-called "trash fish,"
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这些我们其实很乐于
在珊瑚礁上见到的鱼类，
在珊瑚礁上见到的鱼类，
05:05
fish that we would love to see on a reef,
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把它们磨碎，
05:07
grinding them up
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然后变成虾的饲料--
05:09
and turning them into shrimp feed --
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还真是一个自己吃自己
然后吐出虾来的生态系统。
然后吐出虾来的生态系统。
05:10
an ecosystem literally eating itself
and spitting out shrimp.
and spitting out shrimp.
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05:15
The next most consumed seafood in America,
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下一个美国消费最广泛的海产品，
在整个西方也是，
05:17
and also throughout the West,
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金枪鱼（也叫鲔鱼，吞拿鱼）。
05:19
is tuna.
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金枪鱼是顶级的全球性鱼类。
05:20
So tuna is this ultimate global fish.
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这些巨大的管理区域都必须受到监控，
05:23
These huge management areas
have to be observed
have to be observed
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以保证对金枪鱼捕捞进行良好管理。
05:26
in order for tuna to be well managed.
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我们自己的管理区域，
05:28
Our own management area,
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称为地区性渔业管理组织，
05:30
called a Regional Fisheries
Management Organization,
Management Organization,
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简称 ICCAT，
05:32
is called ICCAT,
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大西洋鲔类保育委员会。
05:33
the International Commission
for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas.
for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas.
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杰出的自然主义者
卡尔·赛菲纳曾经称之为：
卡尔·赛菲纳曾经称之为：
05:37
The great naturalist
Carl Safina once called it,
Carl Safina once called it,
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“捞光所有金枪鱼国际阴谋会”。
05:39
"The International Conspiracy
to Catch all the Tunas."
to Catch all the Tunas."
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05:43
Of course we've seen
incredible improvement
incredible improvement
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当然，我们看到ICCAT
在过去两年的巨大进步，
在过去两年的巨大进步，
05:45
in ICCAT in the last few years,
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而且完全还有改进空间的，
05:46
there is total room for improvement,
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但仍然要强调的是，
金枪鱼是一种全球性鱼类，
金枪鱼是一种全球性鱼类，
05:48
but it remains to be said
that tuna is a global fish,
that tuna is a global fish,
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要管理它，就必须全球管理。
05:51
and to manage it,
we have to manage the globe.
we have to manage the globe.
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那好，我们也可以试试养殖，
05:54
Well, we could also try to grow tuna
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05:56
but tuna is a spectacularly bad
animal for aquaculture.
animal for aquaculture.
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可对于水产养殖来说，
金枪鱼极为糟糕。
金枪鱼极为糟糕。
05:59
Many people don't know this
but tuna are warm-blooded.
but tuna are warm-blooded.
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许多人不知道，
金枪鱼其实是温血动物，
金枪鱼其实是温血动物，
它们可以使自己身体的温度
比环境温度高20度，
比环境温度高20度，
06:02
They can heat their bodies 20 degrees
above ambient temperature,
above ambient temperature,
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它们游泳的速度
超过65公里每小时。
超过65公里每小时。
06:06
they can swim at over 40 miles an hour.
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所以这条基本把养殖鱼类的优点
完全消灭了，对吧？
完全消灭了，对吧？
06:08
So that pretty much eliminates
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06:10
all the advantages
of farming a fish, right?
of farming a fish, right?
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一种养殖鱼类--
06:12
A farmed fish is --
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最好是冷血鱼类，
不怎么爱动，
不怎么爱动，
06:13
or a fish is cold-blooded,
it doesn't move too much.
it doesn't move too much.
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这样才有利于蛋白质生长。
06:16
That's a great thing for growing protein.
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但如果养的是这样
疯狂而野性的生物，
疯狂而野性的生物，
06:18
But if you've got
this crazy, wild creature
this crazy, wild creature
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游速65公里每小时，
还能加热自己的血液--
还能加热自己的血液--
06:20
that swims at 40 miles an hour
and heats its blood --
and heats its blood --
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对水产养殖来说不是个好选择。
06:23
not a great candidate for aquaculture.
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06:25
The next creature --
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下一种生物--
美国和整个西方最广泛消费的海产品--
06:27
most consumed seafood in America
and throughout the West --
and throughout the West --
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鲑鱼（也称三文鱼）
06:30
is salmon.
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现在鲑鱼也被扫荡一空了，
06:31
Now salmon got its plundering, too,
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但原因其实不是因为捕捞。
06:33
but it didn't really necessarily
happen through fishing.
happen through fishing.
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这里是我的家乡康涅狄格州，
06:36
This is my home state of Connecticut.
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康涅狄格州曾是许多野生鲑鱼的家乡。
06:38
Connecticut used to be home
to a lot of wild salmon.
to a lot of wild salmon.
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可如果看一看这张康涅狄格州地图，
06:41
But if you look
at this map of Connecticut,
at this map of Connecticut,
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图上的每个点代表一个水坝，
06:43
every dot on that map is a dam.
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06:47
There are over 3,000 dams
in the state of Connecticut.
in the state of Connecticut.
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整个康涅狄格州有超过3,000座水坝。
我常说这就是为什么
康涅狄格人这么急脾气呢--
康涅狄格人这么急脾气呢--
06:51
I often say this is why people
in Connecticut are so uptight --
in Connecticut are so uptight --
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（笑声）
06:54
(Laughter)
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要是有人能让康涅狄格通通气，
06:56
If somebody could just
unblock Connecticut's chi,
unblock Connecticut's chi,
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我觉得世界会变得很美好。
07:00
I feel that we could have
an infinitely better world.
an infinitely better world.
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我在一次国家公园官员会议上特意提起过，
07:02
But I made this particular comment
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07:04
at a convention once
of national parks officers,
of national parks officers,
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07:06
and this guy from North Carolina
sidled up to me, he says,
sidled up to me, he says,
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有这么一位北卡罗来纳州的
悄悄靠过来，说：
悄悄靠过来，说：
“兄弟，你们康涅狄格这种算个啥啊，
07:09
"You know, you oughtn't be so hard
on your Connecticut,
on your Connecticut,
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因为咱北卡罗来纳州，
咱有35,000座坝嘞。”
咱有35,000座坝嘞。”
07:13
cause we here in North Carolina,
we got 35,000 dams."
we got 35,000 dams."
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所以说全国都有这个问题，
全世界都有这个问题，
全世界都有这个问题，
07:17
So it's a national epidemic,
it's an international epidemic.
it's an international epidemic.
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到处都有水坝，
07:20
And there are dams everywhere,
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刚好就是这些水坝，
07:22
and these are precisely the things
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挡住了鲑鱼的去路，
让它们无法到达产卵处。
让它们无法到达产卵处。
07:23
that stop wild salmon
from reaching their spawning grounds.
from reaching their spawning grounds.
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因此呢，我们就转为养殖，
07:26
So as a result,
we've turned to aquaculture,
we've turned to aquaculture,
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而鲑鱼是最为成功的品种之一，
至少许多人这样认为。
至少许多人这样认为。
07:28
and salmon is one the most successful,
at least from a numbers point of view.
at least from a numbers point of view.
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当人们刚开始养殖鲑鱼时，
07:32
When they first started farming salmon,
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要消耗六磅的野生鱼类
才能产出一磅鲑鱼，
才能产出一磅鲑鱼，
07:34
it could take as many
as six pounds of wild fish
as six pounds of wild fish
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07:37
to make a single pound of salmon.
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这一产业已经大大进步了，
的确有功劳，
的确有功劳，
07:39
The industry has, to its credit,
greatly improved.
greatly improved.
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现在已经低于二比一了，
07:42
They've gotten it below two to one,
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虽然其中有一点欺骗性。
07:44
although it's a little bit of a cheat
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因为如果看看养殖鱼饲料是如何生产的，
07:46
because if you look at the way
aquaculture feed is produced,
aquaculture feed is produced,
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是以这种一粒粒的饲料来计算的--
07:49
they're measuring pellets --
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饲料的磅数比鲑鱼的磅数，
07:50
pounds of pellets per pound of salmon.
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而饲料也是用鱼制造的。
07:53
Those pellets are in turn reduced fish.
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07:55
So the actual -- what's called the FIFO,
the fish in and the fish out --
the fish in and the fish out --
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所以实际的鱼的投入和产出比--
称为 FIFO--
称为 FIFO--
就不太好确定。
07:59
kind of hard to say.
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但无论如何，
08:00
But in any case,
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鲑鱼养殖业有功劳，
08:02
credit to the industry,
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生产每磅鲑鱼所消耗的鱼类确实下降了。
08:03
it has lowered the amount of fish
per pound of salmon.
per pound of salmon.
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问题是我们对鲑鱼产量太狂热了。
08:05
Problem is we've also gone crazy
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2176
08:08
with the amount of salmon
that we're producing.
that we're producing.
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水产养殖是这个星球上增长最快的食品体系，
08:10
Aquaculture is the fastest growing
food system on the planet.
food system on the planet.
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它大约每年增长7%。
08:13
It's growing at something
like seven percent per year.
like seven percent per year.
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2976
而虽然单位产量的鱼对应的代价变少了，
08:16
And so even though
we're doing less per fish
we're doing less per fish
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08:20
to bring it to the market,
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08:22
we're still killing
a lot of these little fish.
a lot of these little fish.
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我们仍然在杀死许多这样的小鱼。
08:25
And it's not just fish
that we're feeding fish to,
that we're feeding fish to,
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3176
而且我们不光用鱼来喂鱼，
我们还用鱼来喂鸡和猪。
08:28
we're also feeding fish
to chickens and pigs.
to chickens and pigs.
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2600
08:31
So we've got chickens
and they're eating fish,
and they're eating fish,
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2936
所以我们养的鸡吃鱼，
但奇怪的是，我们养的鱼也有吃鸡的。
08:34
but weirdly, we also have fish
that are eating chickens.
that are eating chickens.
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08:38
Because the byproducts of chickens --
feathers, blood, bone --
feathers, blood, bone --
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因为鸡的副产品--
羽毛、血、骨头--
羽毛、血、骨头--
08:41
get ground up and fed to fish.
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被磨碎然后喂鱼。
所以我经常会想，
08:44
So I often wonder,
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会不会有鱼吃了鸡，那鸡又吃了鱼？
08:45
is there a fish that ate
a chicken that ate a fish?
a chicken that ate a fish?
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08:49
It's sort of a reworking
of the chicken and egg thing. Anyway --
of the chicken and egg thing. Anyway --
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这有点像是先有鸡还是先有蛋的变体。
无论如何--
无论如何--
08:52
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:53
All together, though,
it results in a terrible mess.
it results in a terrible mess.
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总的来说，结果是非常糟糕。
08:56
What you're talking about
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我们看到的是，
08:57
is something between 20 and 30 million
metric tons of wild creatures
metric tons of wild creatures
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大约有二、三千万吨的野生生物
09:03
that are taken from the ocean
and used and ground up.
and used and ground up.
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从海洋里打捞出来，然后磨碎。
09:06
That's the equivalent
of a third of a China,
of a third of a China,
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这相当于三分之一中国人的重量，
09:08
or of an entire United States of humans
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或全体美国人的重量，
09:10
that's taken out of the sea
each and every year.
each and every year.
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每年要从海里捞出来。
09:14
The last of the four
is a kind of amorphous thing.
is a kind of amorphous thing.
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四种鱼里的最后一种，
含义有点模糊。
含义有点模糊。
09:16
It's what the industry calls "whitefish."
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行业内称之为“白鱼”，
“白鱼”这个叫法实际包含了许多种鱼，
09:20
There are many fish that get cycled
into this whitefish thing
into this whitefish thing
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但我想解释一下由来，
09:23
but the way to kind of tell
the story, I think,
the story, I think,
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要先提一下美国饮食革命中的经典桥段，
09:25
is through that classic piece
of American culinary innovation,
of American culinary innovation,
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麦香鱼堡。
09:28
the Filet-O-Fish sandwich.
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麦香鱼堡其实最先用的是比目鱼。
09:29
So the Filet-O-Fish sandwich
actually started as halibut.
actually started as halibut.
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事情的起因是：
一家麦当劳加盟店的店主
一家麦当劳加盟店的店主
09:32
And it started because
a local franchise owner
a local franchise owner
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发现他在周五卖汉堡时，没有人来买。
09:35
found that when he served
his McDonald's on Friday, nobody came.
his McDonald's on Friday, nobody came.
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5536
因为他是在一个天主教社区里，人们要吃鱼。
09:40
Because it was a Catholic
community, they needed fish.
community, they needed fish.
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所以他去找雷·克罗克，说：
09:43
So he went to Ray Kroc and he said,
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“我要做一种鱼肉汉堡，要用比目鱼做。”
09:45
"I'm going to bring you a fish sandwich,
going to be made out of halibut."
going to be made out of halibut."
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3496
雷·克罗克说：“我不看好。
09:48
Ray Kroc said, "I don't think
it's going to work.
it's going to work.
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2296
我想做一种呼拉汉堡，
09:51
I want to do a Hula Burger,
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在面包上放一片菠萝。
09:52
and there's going to be
a slice of pineapple on a bun.
a slice of pineapple on a bun.
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2524
不过这么着吧，我们打个赌，
09:54
But let's do this, let's have a bet.
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1736
谁的汉堡更好卖，
谁的汉堡就算胜出。”
谁的汉堡就算胜出。”
09:56
Whosever sandwich sells more,
that will be the winning sandwich."
that will be the winning sandwich."
228
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3508
10:00
Well, it's kind of sad for the ocean
that the Hula Burger didn't win.
that the Hula Burger didn't win.
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4336
好吧，呼拉汉堡最后没有赢，
对大海真是件悲伤的事，
对大海真是件悲伤的事，
所以他就做了比目鱼堡。
10:04
So he made his halibut sandwich.
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2136
10:06
Unfortunately though,
the sandwich came in at 30 cents.
the sandwich came in at 30 cents.
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不过不妙的是，
鱼堡卖30美分一个，
鱼堡卖30美分一个，
10:10
Ray wanted the sandwich
to come in at 25 cents,
to come in at 25 cents,
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598080
2536
雷希望降到25美分，
10:12
so he turned to Atlantic cod.
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600640
1936
所以他改用了大西洋鳕鱼。
10:14
We all know what happened to
Atlantic cod in New England.
Atlantic cod in New England.
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我们都知道新英格兰地区
大西洋鳕鱼的遭遇（几乎灭绝）。
大西洋鳕鱼的遭遇（几乎灭绝）。
10:17
So now the Filet-O-Fish sandwich
is made out of Alaska pollock,
is made out of Alaska pollock,
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605400
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所以如今的麦香鱼堡
用的是阿拉斯加黄线狭鳕，
用的是阿拉斯加黄线狭鳕，
10:20
it's the largest fin fish fishery
in the United States,
in the United States,
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它是美国捕捞量最大的鱼类，
10:23
2 to 3 billion pounds of fish
taken out of the sea every single year.
taken out of the sea every single year.
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4376
每年捕捞20到30亿磅。
10:28
If we go through the pollock,
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1536
如果黄线狭鳕捞完了，
10:29
the next choice is probably
going to be tilapia.
going to be tilapia.
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2456
下一个选择很可能是罗非鱼。
10:32
Tilapia is one of those fish
nobody ever heard of 20 years ago.
nobody ever heard of 20 years ago.
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620120
2976
罗非鱼这种鱼，
二十年前根本没人听说过。
二十年前根本没人听说过。
10:35
It's actually a very efficient converter
of plant protein into animal protein,
of plant protein into animal protein,
241
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4256
实际上它可以非常高效地
将植物蛋白转化为动物蛋白，
将植物蛋白转化为动物蛋白，
对于第三世界，它是天赐之物。
10:39
and it's been a godsend
to the third world.
to the third world.
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2056
它其实是一种极好的
可持续发展解决方案，
可持续发展解决方案，
10:41
It's actually a tremendously
sustainable solution,
sustainable solution,
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2376
它从卵成长为成鱼只需九个月。
10:43
it goes from an egg
to an adult in nine months.
to an adult in nine months.
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2216
问题是，如果对照西方世界的口味，
10:46
The problem is that when you
look about the West,
look about the West,
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2336
西方所要的它没有。
10:48
it doesn't do what the West
wants it to do.
wants it to do.
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636480
2016
它没有这种所谓的“鱼油”卖点。
10:50
It really doesn't have what's called
an oily fish profile.
an oily fish profile.
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638520
2736
它没有 EPA，DHA
这些ω-3不饱和脂肪酸，
这些ω-3不饱和脂肪酸，
10:53
It doesn't have the EPA and DHA omega-3s
248
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2376
10:55
that we all think are going
to make us live forever.
to make us live forever.
249
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这些我们觉得吃了可以长生不老的东西。
10:59
So what do we do?
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那我们该怎么办？
11:00
I mean, first of all,
what about this poor fish, the clupeids?
what about this poor fish, the clupeids?
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首先来说，
这种小鱼怎么样，鲱鱼？
这种小鱼怎么样，鲱鱼？
11:03
The fish that represent a huge part
of that 20 to 30 million metric tons.
of that 20 to 30 million metric tons.
252
651720
4440
在上面提到的二、三千万吨里，
这种鱼占了很大一部分。
这种鱼占了很大一部分。
11:08
Well, one possibility
that a lot of conservationists have raised
that a lot of conservationists have raised
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其实，许多保护主义者都提到这种可能性，
它可不可以吃？
11:11
is could we eat them?
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我们可不可以直接吃它，
而不是用来喂鲑鱼？
而不是用来喂鲑鱼？
11:13
Could we eat them directly
instead of feeding them to salmon?
instead of feeding them to salmon?
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对此还有些争论。
11:16
There are arguments for it.
256
664400
1336
让这种鱼上市的燃油经济性极高，
11:17
They are tremendously fuel efficient
to bring to market,
to bring to market,
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2620
比如和虾比，燃油消耗只是个零头，
11:20
a fraction of the fuel cost
of say, shrimp,
of say, shrimp,
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2092
而且它在碳效率上也是在最前列。
11:22
and at the very top
of the carbon efficiency scale.
of the carbon efficiency scale.
259
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3336
它也富含ω-3不饱和脂肪酸，
是EPA和DHA的良好来源，
是EPA和DHA的良好来源，
11:25
They also are omega-3 rich,
a great source for EPA and DHA.
a great source for EPA and DHA.
260
673880
4136
11:30
So that is a potential.
261
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1456
所以这是个优点。
11:31
And if we were to go down that route
what I would say is,
what I would say is,
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3696
如果我们从这点说开来，
我想说的是，
我想说的是，
11:35
instead of paying a few bucks a pound --
or a few bucks a ton, really --
or a few bucks a ton, really --
263
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3816
与其在每磅上支出几美元--
实际是每吨几美元--
实际是每吨几美元--
11:39
and making it into aquafeed,
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687080
1976
用来把它变成鱼饲料，
11:41
could we halve the catch
and double the price for the fishermen
and double the price for the fishermen
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3296
我们是不是可以将捕捞量减半，
让价格提升一倍，
让价格提升一倍，
11:44
and make that our way
of treating these particular fish?
of treating these particular fish?
266
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4120
以此作为我们对待这些鱼类的做法吗？
11:49
Other possibility though,
which is much more interesting,
which is much more interesting,
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而另一种可能选择就更有意思了，
11:51
is looking at bivalves,
particularly mussels.
particularly mussels.
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就是双壳贝类，
尤其是贻贝。
尤其是贻贝。
11:54
Now, mussels are very high in EPA and DHA,
they're similar to canned tuna.
they're similar to canned tuna.
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贻贝的EPA和DHA含量非常高，
和鲔鱼罐头相似。
和鲔鱼罐头相似。
11:59
They're also extremely fuel efficient.
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同样燃油经济性极高。
12:01
To bring a pound of mussels to market
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上市一磅贻贝的碳排放，
12:03
is about a thirtieth of the carbon
as required to bring beef to market.
as required to bring beef to market.
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只有上市一磅牛肉的十三分之一。
12:06
They require no forage fish,
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它们也不用吃鱼，
12:08
they actually get their omega-3s
by filtering the water of microalgae.
by filtering the water of microalgae.
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它们实际上可以过滤水中的藻类
得到自己的ω-3不饱和脂肪酸。
得到自己的ω-3不饱和脂肪酸。
12:12
In fact, that's where omega-3s come from,
they don't come from fish.
they don't come from fish.
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实际上这也是ω-3不饱和脂肪酸的来源，
并不是来自鱼。
并不是来自鱼。
12:15
Microalgae make the omega-3s,
they're only bioconcentrated in fish.
they're only bioconcentrated in fish.
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ω-3不饱和脂肪酸是藻类制造的，
只是在鱼类体内进行生物富集。
只是在鱼类体内进行生物富集。
12:19
Mussels and other bivalves
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贻贝和其它双壳贝类
能过滤大量的水。
12:21
do tremendous amounts of water filtration.
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每只贻贝每天能过滤几十加仑的水，
12:23
A single mussel can filter
dozens of gallons every single day.
dozens of gallons every single day.
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12:26
And this is incredibly important
when we look at the world.
when we look at the world.
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这点对于世界来说非常重要。
12:29
Right now, nitrification,
overuse of phosphates in our waterways
overuse of phosphates in our waterways
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如今，水体中过量的氮和磷
12:33
are causing tremendous algal blooms.
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导致藻类疯长。
12:35
Over 400 new dead zones
have been created in the last 20 years,
have been created in the last 20 years,
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在过去20年里
已经出现了超过400个死亡地带，
已经出现了超过400个死亡地带，
12:39
tremendous sources of marine life death.
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大量的海洋生物死亡。
12:44
We also could look at not a fish at all.
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我们还完全可以考虑不是鱼的，
比如蔬菜，
12:46
We could look at a vegetable.
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比如海带，褐藻，
12:47
We could look at seaweed, the kelps,
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它们有许多不同品种，
均富含ω-3不饱和脂肪酸，
均富含ω-3不饱和脂肪酸，
12:49
all these different varieties of things
that can be high in omega-3s,
that can be high in omega-3s,
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12:53
can be high in proteins,
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富含蛋白质，
12:54
tremendously good things.
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非常好的东西。
12:56
They filter the water
just like mussels do.
just like mussels do.
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它们也和贻贝一样能过滤水，
12:58
And weirdly enough,
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而且奇特之处在于，
13:00
it turns out that you
can actually feed this to cows.
can actually feed this to cows.
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它还真的可以用来喂牛。
13:02
Now, I'm not a big fan of cattle.
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我不太支持养牛业，
13:04
But if you wanted to keep growing cattle
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但如果你希望能继续养牛，
13:06
in a time and place
where water resources are limited,
where water resources are limited,
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而所处的时令和地区水资源又有限，
13:09
you're growing seaweed in the water,
you don't have to water it --
you don't have to water it --
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就可以在水里种海带，
还不用浇水--
还不用浇水--
13:12
major consideration.
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很值得考虑。
13:14
And the last fish is a question mark.
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最后一种鱼是一个问号。
13:17
We have the ability
to create aquacultured fish
to create aquacultured fish
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我们有能力创造出一种养殖鱼类，
它能提供净增量的海洋蛋白质，
13:21
that creates a net gain
of marine protein for us.
of marine protein for us.
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它应当是吃素的，
13:24
This creature would have to be vegetarian,
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它应当生长迅速，
13:26
it would have to be fast growing,
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它应当能适应气候变化，
13:28
it would have to be adaptable
to a changing climate
to a changing climate
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而且要有“鱼油”卖点，
13:31
and it would have to have
that oily fish profile,
that oily fish profile,
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EPA 和 DHA 这些我们希望有的
ω-3不饱和脂肪酸。
ω-3不饱和脂肪酸。
13:33
that EPA, DHA, omega-3
fatty acid profile that we're looking for.
fatty acid profile that we're looking for.
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13:37
This exists kind of on paper.
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这似乎只存在于纸面上。
13:40
I have been reporting
on these subjects for 15 years.
on these subjects for 15 years.
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15年来我一直在报导这方面的话题，
13:44
Every time I do a new story,
somebody tells me,
somebody tells me,
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每次我写一个新故事，
都会有人告诉我，
都会有人告诉我，
“我们都能做到，我们都能解决，
13:47
"We can do all that. We can do it.
We've figured it all out.
We've figured it all out.
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我们能创造出这样的一种鱼，
13:49
We can produce a fish
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能提供净增量的海洋蛋白质
和ω-3不饱和脂肪酸。”
和ω-3不饱和脂肪酸。”
13:51
that's a net gain of marine protein
and has omega-3s."
and has omega-3s."
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很好。
13:53
Great.
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但这件事看来发展得不够快，
13:54
It doesn't seem to be getting scaled up.
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13:57
It is time to scale this up.
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是时候加快迅速了。
13:58
If we do,
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如果我们做得到，
14:00
30 million metric tons of seafood,
a third of the world catch,
a third of the world catch,
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那么就有三千万吨的海产品，
世界捕捞量的三分之一，
世界捕捞量的三分之一，
14:03
stays in the water.
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能留在海里。
14:05
So I guess what I'm saying is
this is what we've been going with.
this is what we've been going with.
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所以我想说的就是，
这就是我们走过的路。
这就是我们走过的路。
14:09
We tend to go with our appetites
rather than our minds.
rather than our minds.
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我们总是喜欢口味决定脑袋，
而不是相反。
而不是相反。
14:12
But if we went with this,
or some configuration of it,
or some configuration of it,
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但如果我们改成这样，
或者组合上有些改变，
或者组合上有些改变，
那这些就可能会多一些。
14:15
we might have a little more of this.
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14:19
Thank you.
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谢谢大家。
14:20
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Paul Greenberg - AuthorPaul Greenberg researches and writes about fish, aquaculture and the future of the ocean.
Why you should listen
Paul Greenberg is the author of the James Beard Award winning New York Times bestseller Four Fish and a regular contributor to The New York Times. He has also written for National Geographic Magazine, GQ, The Times (of London) and Vogue, and he lectures on seafood and the environment around the world. He is currently a fellow with The Safina Center and a Pew Fellow in Marine Conservation.
His most recent book, American Catch, the story of how we lost and how we might regain American local seafood, was published by The Penguin Press in June of 2014 and was featured on Fresh Air with Terry Gross.
Paul Greenberg | Speaker | TED.com