Global Witness
Robert Palmer: The Panama Papers exposed a huge global problem. What's next?
罗伯特·帕尔默: 巴拿马文件曝光了一个巨大的全球性问题，下一个会是什么？
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2016年4月3日，发生了历史上最大的信息泄露。巴拿马文件揭露了许多富人、官员未曝光的离岸资产。但这意味着什么？我们邀请了来自全球见证组织的罗伯特·帕尔默为我们说明。
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global Witness
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
[On April 3, 2016 we saw
the largest data leak in history.]
the largest data leak in history.]
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2016年4月3日
发生了历史上最大的信息泄露
发生了历史上最大的信息泄露
00:18
[The Panama Papers exposed
rich and powerful people]
rich and powerful people]
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巴拿马文件揭露了许多富人、官员
00:20
[hiding vast amounts of money
in offshore accounts.]
in offshore accounts.]
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藏匿大量未曝光的海外资产。
00:23
[What does this mean?]
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这意味着什么？
00:27
[We called Robert Palmer
of Global Witness to explain.]
of Global Witness to explain.]
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我们邀请了来自全球见证组织
的罗伯特·帕尔默为我们说明。
的罗伯特·帕尔默为我们说明。
00:32
This week, there have been
a whole slew and deluge of stories
a whole slew and deluge of stories
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这周，有一千一百万的文件
从一个叫莫萨克·冯赛卡
从一个叫莫萨克·冯赛卡
00:37
coming out from the leak
of 11 million documents
of 11 million documents
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的巴拿马的
律师事务所泄露出来
律师事务所泄露出来
00:41
from a Panamanian-based law firm
called Mossack Fonseca.
called Mossack Fonseca.
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使得背后大量
不为人知的故事被公之于众。
不为人知的故事被公之于众。
00:45
The release of these papers from Panama
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
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这些来自巴拿马的文件的泄露
掀开了海外世界神秘面纱的一角。
00:51
of the secretive offshore world.
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00:53
We get an insight into how clients
and banks and lawyers
and banks and lawyers
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我们得以深入了解
客户 银行和律师们
客户 银行和律师们
00:58
go to companies like Mossack Fonseca
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是如何找上
像莫萨克·冯赛卡这样的公司
像莫萨克·冯赛卡这样的公司
01:01
and say, "OK, we want
an anonymous company,
an anonymous company,
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并对他们说
“我们想要一个匿名公司，
“我们想要一个匿名公司，
01:03
can you give us one?"
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你能帮我们搞一个吗？“
01:04
So you actually get to see the emails,
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我们可以真切地
看到了那些电子邮件，
看到了那些电子邮件，
01:06
you get to see the exchanges of messages,
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那些信件往来，
01:08
you get to see the mechanics
of how this works,
of how this works,
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以及这个系统是如何运作，
01:11
how this operates.
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如何维持的。
01:13
Now, this has already started
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
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至今此事已经产生了不小的反响。
01:17
The Prime Minister
of Iceland has resigned.
of Iceland has resigned.
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冰岛的总理宣布辞职。
01:20
We've also had news
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我们还得到消息称
01:21
that an ally of the brutal
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
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残暴的叙利亚独裁者
巴沙尔·阿萨德的一个助手
巴沙尔·阿萨德的一个助手
01:26
has also got offshore companies.
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也拥有境外公司。
01:28
There's been allegations
of a $2 billion money trail
of a $2 billion money trail
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还有证据表明
一笔二十亿美元的资金流
一笔二十亿美元的资金流
01:34
that leads back to President
Vladimir Putin of Russia
Vladimir Putin of Russia
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通过一个儿时密友
回流给俄罗斯总统
回流给俄罗斯总统
01:38
via his close childhood friend,
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弗拉基米尔·普京，
01:40
who happens to be a top cellist.
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他的儿时朋友后来变成
一位顶尖的大提琴家。
一位顶尖的大提琴家。
01:42
And there will be a lot
of rich individuals out there
of rich individuals out there
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仍有很多未被公开财产的富人
01:45
and others who will be nervous
about the next set of stories
about the next set of stories
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对事情下一步的发展
和下一批泄露的文件
和下一批泄露的文件
01:49
and the next set of leaked documents.
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感到十分恐慌。
01:52
Now, this sounds like the plot
of a spy thriller
of a spy thriller
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现在这听起来很像谍报惊悚片
01:56
or a John Grisham novel.
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或是约翰·格里森姆
的小说中的情节。
的小说中的情节。
01:58
It seems very distant
from you, me, ordinary people.
from you, me, ordinary people.
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这似乎离你我这样的
普通人的生活很远。
普通人的生活很远。
02:02
Why should we care about this?
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我们为什么要关心这些呢？
02:04
But the truth is that if rich
and powerful individuals
and powerful individuals
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但事实上如果有钱有势的人们
02:09
are able to keep their money offshore
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能够把他们的财产离岸保管
02:11
and not pay the taxes that they should,
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逃避他们本应支付的税款，
02:14
it means that there is less money
for vital public services
for vital public services
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也就意味着用于重要的
公共服务的资金将变得更少，
公共服务的资金将变得更少，
02:18
like healthcare, education, roads.
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如医疗、教育、道路维修，
02:21
And that affects all of us.
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这会影响我们所有人。
02:24
Now, for my organization Global Witness,
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对于我所在的全球见证组织来说，
02:26
this exposé has been phenomenal.
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这次爆料的影响是十分惊人的。
02:30
We have the world's media
and political leaders
and political leaders
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世界各地的媒体和政治头目
02:35
talking about how individuals
can use offshore secrecy
can use offshore secrecy
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都在谈论个人如何利用海外庇护所
02:40
to hide and disguise their assets --
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来隐藏和伪装他们的资产。
02:42
something we have been talking about
and exposing for a decade.
and exposing for a decade.
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这也是我们
在过去的十年一直谈论和揭发的。
在过去的十年一直谈论和揭发的。
02:47
Now, I think a lot of people find
this entire world baffling and confusing,
this entire world baffling and confusing,
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我想很多人都认为
这个世界太复杂、太难懂，
这个世界太复杂、太难懂，
02:52
and hard to understand how
this sort of offshore world works.
this sort of offshore world works.
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也很费解
这种海外世界是怎么运行的。
这种海外世界是怎么运行的。
02:56
I like to think of it a bit
like a Russian doll.
like a Russian doll.
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我喜欢将其比作俄罗斯套娃。
02:59
So you can have one company
stacked inside another company,
stacked inside another company,
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你可以将一个公司套在另一个里，
03:02
stacked inside another company,
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再套在另一个里，
03:05
making it almost impossible
to really understand
to really understand
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让人几乎不可能分辨出
03:09
who is behind these structures.
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真正藏在背后的人是谁。
03:11
It can be very difficult
for law enforcement
for law enforcement
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这对于律师事务所、税务局、
03:14
or tax authorities,
journalists, civil society
journalists, civil society
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媒体记者和整个社会来说，
03:17
to really understand what's going on.
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理解这其中
发生了什么都是很困难的。
发生了什么都是很困难的。
03:20
I also think it's interesting
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我觉得很有意思的是
03:21
that there's been less coverage
of this issue in the United States.
of this issue in the United States.
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这次事件并没有涉及很多的美国人。
03:25
And that's perhaps because
some prominent US people
some prominent US people
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这可能是因为一些有钱有势的美国人
03:28
just haven't figured
in this exposé, in this scandal.
in this exposé, in this scandal.
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还没在这次揭露和丑闻中被发现。
03:33
Now, that's not because
there are no rich Americans
there are no rich Americans
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并不是因为那些有钱的美国人
03:37
who are stashing their assets offshore.
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没有将财产转到海外。
03:40
It's just because of the way
in which offshore works,
in which offshore works,
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只是因为他们的这种运作方式
03:43
Mossack Fonseca has fewer
American clients.
American clients.
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使得莫萨克·冯赛卡
的美国客户不多。
的美国客户不多。
03:47
I think if we saw leaks
from the Cayman Islands
from the Cayman Islands
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我相信如果
我们能看到从开曼群岛
我们能看到从开曼群岛
03:50
or even from Delaware
or Wyoming or Nevada,
or Wyoming or Nevada,
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或者甚至特拉华州
怀俄明州或者内华达州
怀俄明州或者内华达州
03:54
you would see many more cases
and examples linking back to Americans.
and examples linking back to Americans.
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泄露出的文件
将会有大量美国的案件被牵扯出来。
将会有大量美国的案件被牵扯出来。
04:00
In fact, in a number of US states
you need less information,
you need less information,
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实际上在美国的很多州
04:06
you need to provide less
information to get a company
information to get a company
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你成立一个公司所需要提供的资料
04:10
than you do to get a library card.
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比办一张图书借阅卡所需的还要少。
04:13
That sort of secrecy in America
has allowed employees of school districts
has allowed employees of school districts
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这种美国的信息漏洞让学区的员工
04:19
to rip off schoolchildren.
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可以剥削小学生，
04:20
It has allowed scammers
to rip off vulnerable investors.
to rip off vulnerable investors.
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使得骗子们剥削易上当的投资者。
04:26
This is the sort of behavior
that affects all of us.
that affects all of us.
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这种行为会影响我们每一个人。
04:30
Now, at Global Witness,
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现在，我们全球见证组织
04:32
we wanted to see what this
actually looked like in practice.
actually looked like in practice.
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想要耐心的去看看它到底发生了什么
04:35
How does this actually work?
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以及是如何运作的。
04:37
So what we did
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所以我们所做的就是
04:38
is we sent in an undercover investigator
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
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将一位便衣调查员
送到13家曼哈顿的律师事务所。
送到13家曼哈顿的律师事务所。
04:45
Our investigator posed
as an African minister
as an African minister
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我们的调查员化装成一名
04:49
who wanted to move suspect funds
into the United States
into the United States
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想要将一笔来路不明的资金
转到美国的非洲高官
转到美国的非洲高官
04:53
to buy a house, a yacht, a jet.
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来购买一栋房子
一艘游艇和一架喷气飞机。
一艘游艇和一架喷气飞机。
04:57
Now, what was truly shocking
was that all but one of those lawyers
was that all but one of those lawyers
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随后让我们震惊的是
05:02
provided our investigator with suggestions
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除了一位律师以外
其他所有律师都为我们的调查员
其他所有律师都为我们的调查员
05:06
on how to move those suspect funds.
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提供了如何转移可疑资金的建议。
05:08
These were all preliminary meetings,
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这只是初来乍到的会面，
05:10
and none of the lawyers
took us on as a client
took us on as a client
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没有一位律师把我们视为委托人来办案
05:13
and of course no money moved hands,
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自然也没有钱转手
05:15
but it really shows the problem
with the system.
with the system.
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但它仍然说明了
这个系统的一些问题。
这个系统的一些问题。
05:18
It's also important
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值得注意的是
05:20
to not just think about this
as individual cases.
as individual cases.
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我们不能只把它看成一起个案。
05:24
This is not just about
an individual lawyer
an individual lawyer
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这不仅仅是一位律师
05:26
who's spoken to our undercover
investigator and provided suggestions.
investigator and provided suggestions.
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向我们的调查员提供了建议，
05:30
It's not just about
a particular senior politician
a particular senior politician
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这不仅仅是某位特定的官员
05:33
who's been caught up in a scandal.
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被爆出丑闻，
05:34
This is about how a system works,
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这代表了整个系统的运作方式：
05:37
that entrenches corruption,
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
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根深蒂固的腐败、逃税
贫困还有基础的薄弱。
贫困还有基础的薄弱。
05:43
And in order to tackle this,
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想要改善这一切，
05:45
we need to change the game.
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我们需要改变游戏，
05:47
We need to change the rules of the game
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改变游戏的规则
05:50
to make this sort of behavior harder.
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让这样的行为难以实现。
05:52
This may seem like doom and gloom,
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看起来似乎前景黯淡，
05:54
like there's nothing we can do about it,
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好像我们没有什么能做的，
05:56
like nothing has ever changed,
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好像一切都没有变过，
05:58
like there will always be rich
and powerful individuals.
and powerful individuals.
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好像永远都会有有钱有势的人。
06:01
But as a natural optimist,
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但作为一个天生的乐观主义者，
06:04
I do see that we are starting
to get some change.
to get some change.
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我能看到人们是在改变的。
06:07
Over the last couple of years,
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过去的这几年里，
06:09
we've seen a real push towards
greater transparency
greater transparency
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我们见证了民众对公司所有权
06:13
when it comes to company ownership.
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的透明度问题上施加的更大压力。
06:15
This issue was put on the political agenda
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这个问题被英国首相戴维·卡梅伦
06:18
by the UK Prime Minister David Cameron
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在2013年北爱尔兰举办的
06:20
at a big G8 Summit that was held
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
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八国峰会上提上了政治议程。
06:25
And since then, the European Union
is going to be creating
is going to be creating
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从那以后，欧盟开始实行
06:30
central registers at a national level
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国家级的中央注册中心
06:32
of who really owns and controls
companies across Europe.
companies across Europe.
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来管理
拥有和控制着欧洲的各个公司的人。
拥有和控制着欧洲的各个公司的人。
06:35
One of the things that is sad is that,
actually, the US is lagging behind.
actually, the US is lagging behind.
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但令人难过的是
美国一直没有动作。
美国一直没有动作。
06:40
There's bipartisan legislation
that had been introduced
that had been introduced
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两党的立法被
06:43
in the House and the Senate,
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众议院和参议院审议，
06:45
but it isn't making as much progress
as we'd like to see.
as we'd like to see.
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但却没有达到我们希望看到的效果。
06:48
So we'd really want to see
the Panama leaks,
the Panama leaks,
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所以我们十分愿意看到
巴拿马泄露这样的事情发生，
巴拿马泄露这样的事情发生，
06:51
this huge peek into the offshore world,
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让我们对离岸世界
有了更深入的了解，
有了更深入的了解，
06:55
be used as a way of opening up
in the US and around the world.
in the US and around the world.
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对美国和整个世界来说
都是一个新的公开方式。
都是一个新的公开方式。
07:00
For us at Global Witness,
this is a moment for change.
this is a moment for change.
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对于在全球见证组织的我们来说，
这是一个值得纪念的改变的时刻。
这是一个值得纪念的改变的时刻。
07:05
We need ordinary people to get angry
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我们需要普通百姓的愤而起身
07:09
at the way in which people
can hide their identity
can hide their identity
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抵制这些用地下公司
07:12
behind secret companies.
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来隐瞒身份的人。
07:14
We need business leaders
to stand up and say,
to stand up and say,
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我们需要商业领袖愤起而呼：
07:18
"Secrecy like this is not
good for business."
good for business."
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“这样的地下活动
是被商业所摒弃的。”
是被商业所摒弃的。”
07:21
We need political leaders
to recognize the problem,
to recognize the problem,
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我们需要政治首领
意识到这个问题的严重性，
意识到这个问题的严重性，
07:26
and to commit to changing the law
to open up this sort of secrecy.
to open up this sort of secrecy.
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立志要改变法律
将这类恶性公之于众。
将这类恶性公之于众。
07:31
Together, we can end the secrecy
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团结一心
我们就可以结束这不为人知的罪行。
我们就可以结束这不为人知的罪行。
07:34
that is currently allowing tax evasion,
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结束这些愈演愈烈的
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corruption, money laundering to flourish.
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逃税、腐败和洗钱活动。
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global WitnessRobert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes.
Why you should listen
Robert Palmer is the Banks and Corruption Campaign Leader for Global Witness, whose founder Charmian Gooch won the TED Prize in 2014. The Nobel-prize nominated organization is dedicated to breaking the links between natural resources, conflict and corruption.
Palmer has led a number of high profile investigations. These include exposing how corrupt Nigerian politicians used British high street banks to move bribe money; uncovering which global banks held $65 billion of Libyan government funds; and organizing an undercover sting to show how corrupt officials can move suspect funds into the U.S. with the help of New York lawyers.
Palmer is an expert in the global anti-money laundering framework and helps to develop practical policy solutions to improve its effectiveness. He helps to lead a global coalition of civil society groups campaigning for an end to the abuse of the financial system by corrupt officials. This has led to new transparency laws in the UK and EU to tackle anonymously owned companies.
Robert Palmer | Speaker | TED.com