TEDxUniversityofNevada
David Burkus: Why you should know how much your coworkers get paid
大卫·伯克斯: 为什么你应该知道同事的薪资
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你的工资是多少？和你的同事相比怎么样？你应该知道，他们也应该知道，管理学研究者大卫·伯克斯如是说。在这个演讲中，伯克斯对我们习以为常的私密薪资制度提出了质疑，并强有力的解释了公开薪资对雇员、公司以及社会的好处。
David Burkus - Management researcher
David Burkus challenges the traditional and widely accepted principles of business management. Full bio
David Burkus challenges the traditional and widely accepted principles of business management. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
How much do you get paid?
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你的工资是多少？
00:15
Don't answer that out loud.
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先别说出来。
00:17
But put a number in your head.
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在脑子里想一下。
00:20
Now: How much do you think the person
sitting next to you gets paid?
sitting next to you gets paid?
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现在想想：
你觉得邻座的工资是多少？
你觉得邻座的工资是多少？
00:25
Again, don't answer out loud.
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也别说出来。
（笑声）
00:27
(Laughter)
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00:29
At work, how much do you think
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你觉得办公室里
坐在旁边的同事的工资又是多少？
00:31
the person sitting in the cubicle
or the desk next to you gets paid?
or the desk next to you gets paid?
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你知道吗？
00:35
Do you know?
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00:36
Should you know?
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你应该知道吗？
00:38
Notice, it's a little uncomfortable for me
to even ask you those questions.
to even ask you those questions.
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问这些问题连我都觉得不太自在，
但是承认吧——
你有点想知道答案。
你有点想知道答案。
00:42
But admit it -- you kind of want to know.
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00:46
Most of us are uncomfortable with the idea
of broadcasting our salary.
of broadcasting our salary.
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我们大多数人都不想
告诉别人自己的工资，
告诉别人自己的工资，
我们不想把工资告诉邻居，
00:50
We're not supposed to tell our neighbors,
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也绝对不想告诉办公室的同事。
00:52
and we're definitely not supposed
to tell our office neighbors.
to tell our office neighbors.
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可能如果大家都知道别人的工资，
00:55
The assumed reason is that if everybody
knew what everybody got paid,
knew what everybody got paid,
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就要天下大乱了。
00:59
then all hell would break loose.
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可能会出现争吵，打架，
01:01
There'd be arguments, there'd be fights,
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甚至会有人辞职。
01:03
there might even be a few people who quit.
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但如果这个秘密恰恰
就是冲突的起因呢？
就是冲突的起因呢？
01:05
But what if secrecy is actually
the reason for all that strife?
the reason for all that strife?
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如果我们揭开这个秘密会发生什么呢？
01:09
And what would happen
if we removed that secrecy?
if we removed that secrecy?
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01:12
What if openness actually increased
the sense of fairness and collaboration
the sense of fairness and collaboration
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公开薪资能不能增进公司内部的合作，
还有公平感呢？
01:16
inside a company?
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01:17
What would happen if we had
total pay transparency?
total pay transparency?
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如果完全公开薪资信息，那会发生什么呢？
01:22
For the past several years,
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过去的几年里，
我一直在研究那些质疑
传统经营理念的
传统经营理念的
01:23
I've been studying the corporate
and entrepreneurial leaders
and entrepreneurial leaders
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企业家和创业者。
01:26
who question the conventional wisdom
about how to run a company.
about how to run a company.
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01:30
And the question of pay keeps coming up.
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而薪资待遇的问题不断浮出水面。
01:33
And the answers keep surprising.
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答案也在不断挑战传统观念。
01:36
It turns out that pay transparency --
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结果表明，薪资透明 —
在整个公司中公开薪资数据 —
01:38
sharing salaries openly
across a company --
across a company --
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会为雇员和雇主
01:40
makes for a better workplace
for both the employee
for both the employee
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营造更好的工作环境。
01:43
and for the organization.
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01:45
When people don't know how their pay
compares to their peers',
compares to their peers',
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当人们不知道他们同事的工资时，
他们总会感觉自己工资太低，
01:48
they're more likely to feel underpaid
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甚至受到了歧视。
01:50
and maybe even discriminated against.
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01:52
Do you want to work at a place
that tolerates the idea
that tolerates the idea
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你想在一个你觉得自己的工资太低
或者遭到歧视的地方工作吗？
01:55
that you feel underpaid
or discriminated against?
or discriminated against?
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01:58
But keeping salaries secret
does exactly that,
does exactly that,
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对薪资保密恰恰会导致这样的结果，
却被长期且普遍的接受，
02:01
and it's a practice
as old as it is common,
as old as it is common,
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02:04
despite the fact
that in the United States,
that in the United States,
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尽管美国法律
保护雇员讨论薪资的权利。
02:06
the law protects an employee's right
to discuss their pay.
to discuss their pay.
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02:11
In one famous example from decades ago,
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几十年前，有一个著名的例子，
《名利场》杂志的管理层
02:13
the management of Vanity Fair magazine
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发布了一条规则：
02:16
actually circulated a memo entitled:
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“禁止员工讨论工资。”
02:18
"Forbidding Discussion Among
Employees of Salary Received."
Employees of Salary Received."
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“禁止”员工讨论工资。
02:21
"Forbidding" discussion among
employees of salary received.
employees of salary received.
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02:25
Now that memo didn't sit well
with everybody.
with everybody.
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不是所有人都
接受得了这条规则，
接受得了这条规则，
纽约文坛人物多乐西·帕克，
02:27
New York literary figures
Dorothy Parker,
Dorothy Parker,
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罗伯特·本克利
和罗伯特·舍伍德，
和罗伯特·舍伍德，
02:29
Robert Benchley and Robert Sherwood,
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三位阿冈昆圆桌会议的作家，
02:31
all writers in the Algonquin Round Table,
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决定为薪资透明而战，
02:33
decided to stand up for transparency
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第二天上班时，
02:35
and showed up for work the next day
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他们脖子上挂了个牌子，
上面写了自己的工资。
上面写了自己的工资。
02:37
with their salary written on signs
hanging from their neck.
hanging from their neck.
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（笑声）
02:40
(Laughter)
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02:42
Imagine showing up for work
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想象一下你去上班时，
胸前挂着工资牌，谁都能看到。
02:44
with your salary just written
across your chest for all to see.
across your chest for all to see.
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02:49
But why would a company even want
to discourage salary discussions?
to discourage salary discussions?
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但是为什么公司
会反对讨论薪资呢？
会反对讨论薪资呢？
为什么一些人服从，
而另一些人反对呢？
而另一些人反对呢？
02:52
Why do some people go along with it,
while others revolt against it?
while others revolt against it?
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02:57
It turns out that in addition
to the assumed reasons,
to the assumed reasons,
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除了之前猜测的理由之外，
对薪资保密还是省钱的良方。
03:00
pay secrecy is actually a way
to save a lot of money.
to save a lot of money.
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想想看，工资不透明会导致
03:04
You see, keeping salaries secret
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经济学家所说的“信息不对称”。
03:06
leads to what economists call
"information asymmetry."
"information asymmetry."
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在这种情况下谈判的双方，
03:09
This is a situation where,
in a negotiation,
in a negotiation,
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一方比另一方掌握更多的信息。
03:11
one party has loads more
information than the other.
information than the other.
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03:14
And in hiring or promotion
or annual raise discussions,
or annual raise discussions,
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在招聘、升职、加薪的讨论中，
雇主就可以用这个秘密省很多钱。
03:18
an employer can use that secrecy
to save a lot of money.
to save a lot of money.
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03:22
Imagine how much better
you could negotiate for a raise
you could negotiate for a raise
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想象一下，知道每个人的工资，
对你的加薪谈判多么有利。
03:25
if you knew everybody's salary.
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03:29
Economists warn that information asymmetry
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经济学家提醒道：信息不对称
会导致市场偏离正轨。
03:32
can cause markets to go awry.
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如果有人在复印时
不小心遗留了一张工资表，
不小心遗留了一张工资表，
03:33
Someone leaves a pay stub on the copier,
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很快大家就会彼此争论起来。
03:35
and suddenly everybody
is shouting at each other.
is shouting at each other.
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03:38
In fact, they even warn
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事实上，经济学家甚至还提醒，
信息不对称可能导致市场失调。
03:40
that information asymmetry
can lead to a total market failure.
can lead to a total market failure.
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03:46
And I think we're almost there.
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我认为我们正处在这个边缘，
原因就在于：
03:48
Here's why:
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首先，大部分雇员不清楚
自己与同事的工资存在多少差异。
自己与同事的工资存在多少差异。
03:49
first, most employees have no idea
how their pay compares to their peers'.
how their pay compares to their peers'.
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03:54
In a 2015 survey of 70,000 employees,
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在2015年进行的一项
覆盖7万名雇员的调查中，
覆盖7万名雇员的调查中，
三分之二的调查者
认为他们被压低了薪水，
认为他们被压低了薪水，
03:58
two-thirds of everyone who is paid
at the market rate
at the market rate
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虽然他们拿到的都是基于市场
正常水平支付的工资。
正常水平支付的工资。
04:02
said that they felt they were underpaid.
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这些认为被压低工资的人，
04:05
And of everybody who felt
that they were underpaid,
that they were underpaid,
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有60%说他们想要辞职，
04:07
60 percent said
that they intended to quit,
that they intended to quit,
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不管他们的实际工资
是过低还是过高，
是过低还是过高，
04:10
regardless of where they were --
underpaid, overpaid
underpaid, overpaid
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还是恰好在正常水平。
04:13
or right at the market rate.
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04:16
If you were part of this survey,
what would you say?
what would you say?
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如果你参与这个调查，
你会怎么说？
你会怎么说？
你被压低工资了吗？
04:18
Are you underpaid?
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等一下，既然都
不允许谈论工资，
不允许谈论工资，
04:19
Well, wait -- how do you even know,
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你又怎么知道是被压低了？
04:22
because you're not allowed
to talk about it?
to talk about it?
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04:24
Next, information asymmetry, pay secrecy,
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其次，信息不对称，
薪资保密，
薪资保密，
会让市场中现实存在的歧视
04:28
makes it easier to ignore
the discrimination
the discrimination
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更容易被忽视。
04:31
that's already present
in the market today.
in the market today.
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04:34
In a 2011 report from the Institute
for Women's Policy Research,
for Women's Policy Research,
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妇女政策研究协会在
2011年发布的一份报告显示，
2011年发布的一份报告显示，
男性和女性的工资差距
04:37
the gender wage gap
between men and women
between men and women
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高达23%。
04:40
was 23 percent.
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04:42
This is where that 77 cents
on the dollar comes from.
on the dollar comes from.
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这就是“1美元中的77美分”
（职场女性的薪酬是男性同事的77%）的来历。
（职场女性的薪酬是男性同事的77%）的来历。
04:45
But in the Federal Government,
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但在联邦政府部门，
薪资是有固定标准的，
04:47
where salaries are pinned
to certain levels
to certain levels
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每个雇员都清楚这个标准，
04:49
and everybody knows
what those levels are,
what those levels are,
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那里的性别薪资
差距就只有11% —
差距就只有11% —
04:51
the gender wage gap
shrinks to 11 percent --
shrinks to 11 percent --
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这还是在实施经济学家呼吁的
04:53
and this is before controlling
for any of the factors
for any of the factors
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控制措施之前的数据。
04:55
that economists argue over
whether or not to control for.
whether or not to control for.
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04:59
If we really want to close
the gender wage gap,
the gender wage gap,
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如果我们真的想
消除性别薪资差距，
消除性别薪资差距，
可能需要从公开工资单开始。
05:01
maybe we should start
by opening up the payroll.
by opening up the payroll.
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05:04
If this is what total
market failure looks like,
market failure looks like,
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如果市场失灵就是这个样子，
那公开透明仍是
保证公平的唯一方法。
保证公平的唯一方法。
05:08
then openness remains
the only way to ensure fairness.
the only way to ensure fairness.
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05:12
Now, I realize that letting people
know what you make
know what you make
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我知道公开收入，
可能让人不舒服，
05:14
might feel uncomfortable,
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但总是怀疑
05:16
but isn't it less uncomfortable
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自己被歧视，
05:18
than always wondering
if you're being discriminated against,
if you're being discriminated against,
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或者家里的女性被不公平的
压低薪水不是更让人郁闷吗？
压低薪水不是更让人郁闷吗？
05:20
or if you wife or your daughter
or your sister is being paid unfairly?
or your sister is being paid unfairly?
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05:25
Openness remains the best way
to ensure fairness,
to ensure fairness,
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公开是保证公平的最好手段，
薪资透明就是一种。
05:29
and pay transparency does that.
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05:31
That's why entrepreneurial leaders
and corporate leaders
and corporate leaders
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这就是这些年
企业家和创业者们
企业家和创业者们
尝试公开薪资的原因，
05:34
have been experimenting
with sharing salaries for years.
with sharing salaries for years.
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比如戴恩·阿特金森。
05:37
Like Dane Atkinson.
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戴恩是位连续创业者，
他在创建前几个公司时
他在创建前几个公司时
05:38
Dane is a serial entrepreneur
who started many companies
who started many companies
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使用了薪资保密制度，
05:42
in a pay secrecy condition
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甚至会给两个能力相同的员工
05:44
and even used that condition
to pay two equally qualified people
to pay two equally qualified people
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支付截然不同的薪水，
05:47
dramatically different salaries,
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仅仅因为他们
谈薪水的能力不同。
谈薪水的能力不同。
05:49
depending on how well
they could negotiate.
they could negotiate.
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05:52
And Dane saw the strife
that happened as a result of this.
that happened as a result of this.
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戴恩发现这导致了冲突。
05:55
So when he started
his newest company, SumAll,
his newest company, SumAll,
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所以当他创办新公司 SumAll 时，
他从一开始就实施了透明薪资制度。
05:58
he committed to salary transparency
from the beginning.
from the beginning.
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06:01
And the results have been amazing.
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然而效果出乎意料的好。
06:04
And in study after study,
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在一个个的研究中，
当人们知道他们的收入
06:06
when people know
how they're being paid
how they're being paid
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和同事相比处于什么水平，
06:07
and how that pay compares to their peers',
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他们会加倍努力工作，提高绩效，
06:10
they're more likely to work hard
to improve their performance,
to improve their performance,
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更容易被动员，更不容易辞职。
06:12
more likely to be engaged,
and they're less likely to quit.
and they're less likely to quit.
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06:15
That's why Dane's not alone.
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这就是为什么像戴恩
一样的人越来越多。
一样的人越来越多。
06:17
From technology start-ups like Buffer,
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从类似 Buffer 的初创科技公司，
06:19
to the tens of thousands
of employees at Whole Foods,
of employees at Whole Foods,
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到 Whole Foods 这样的
数万人的大公司，
数万人的大公司，
不但大家的薪资都透明化，
06:23
where not only is your salary
available for everyone to see,
available for everyone to see,
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而且每个分店、
每个部门的绩效数据
每个部门的绩效数据
06:26
but the performance data
for the store and for your department
for the store and for your department
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也在公司内网
06:29
is available on the company intranet
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对所有人公开。
06:31
for all to see.
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06:33
Now, pay transparency
takes a lot of forms.
takes a lot of forms.
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实际上，薪资透明有很多方式，
并不是一成不变的。
06:36
It's not one size fits all.
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有的公司把薪资向所有人公开。
06:38
Some post their salaries for all to see.
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有的只是在公司内部公开，
06:40
Some only keep it inside the company.
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有的公开薪资的计算公式，
06:42
Some post the formula for calculating pay,
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有的公开他们的薪资级别，
06:45
and others post the pay levels
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并且公开员工对应的级别。
06:47
and affix everybody to that level.
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所以你不用为每个员工
06:49
So you don't have to make signs
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做个工资牌挂在身上。
06:51
for all of your employees
to wear around the office.
to wear around the office.
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你也不用像三位作家一样
06:53
And you don't have to be
the only one wearing a sign
the only one wearing a sign
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自己做个工资牌挂在身上。
06:56
that you made at home.
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但我们可以一起努力，
推进薪资透明化。
推进薪资透明化。
06:58
But we can all take greater steps
towards pay transparency.
towards pay transparency.
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07:02
For those of you that have the authority
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如果你有权利在公司里
推进工资透明化：
07:04
to move forward towards transparency:
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现在是你向前迈进的时候了。
07:06
it's time to move forward.
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07:07
And for those of you
that don't have that authority:
that don't have that authority:
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如果你没有这样的权利，
现在就是站起来，
争取这个权利的时候。
争取这个权利的时候。
07:10
it's time to stand up for your right to.
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07:13
So how much do you get paid?
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那么，你的工资是多少呢？
07:16
And how does that compare
to the people you work with?
to the people you work with?
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和你的同事相比怎么样？
07:19
You should know.
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你应该知道。
07:21
And so should they.
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他们也应该知道。
07:23
Thank you.
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谢谢。
（掌声）
07:25
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
David Burkus - Management researcherDavid Burkus challenges the traditional and widely accepted principles of business management.
Why you should listen
David Burkus is an author, podcaster and associate professor of management at Oral Roberts University. His latest book, Under New Management, challenges traditional principles of business management and argues that many of them are outdated, outmoded or simply don't work -- and reveals what does. He is also the author of The Myths of Creativity: The Truth About How Innovative Companies and People Generate Great Ideas.
Burkus is a regular contributor to Harvard Business Review and Inc. magazine. His work has been featured in Fast Company, the Financial Times, Bloomberg BusinessWeek and "CBS This Morning." He's also the host of the award-winning podcast Radio Free Leader.
When he's not speaking or writing, Burkus is in the classroom. At Oral Roberts University, he teaches courses on organizational behavior, creativity and innovation, and strategic leadership. He serves on the advisory board of Fuse Corps, a nonprofit dedicated to making transformative and replicable change in local government.
Burkus lives in Tulsa with his wife and their two boys.
David Burkus | Speaker | TED.com