TEDxBoston
Steve Ramirez and Xu Liu: A mouse. A laser beam. A manipulated memory.
斯蒂夫•拉米雷斯和劉旭: 老鼠、雷射光和被操縱的記憶
Filmed:
Readability: 4.1
1,127,889 views
我們能編輯我們的記憶內容嗎？這個帶有科幻色彩的問題同時也正是斯蒂夫•拉米雷斯和劉旭在麻省理工學院實驗室裡求證的問題。實際上，他們兩人把雷射光射進一隻老鼠的大腦來啟動並操控牠的記憶。在這個出人意表的有趣演講中，他們不僅分享了他們實驗的過程，更重要的是，他們也向我們述說了這實驗的目的。 （攝於TEDxBoston）
Steve Ramirez - Neuroscientist
When Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice. Full bioXu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice. Full bio
When Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice. Full bioXu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Steve Ramirez: My first year of grad school,
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斯蒂夫：我讀研究所第一年的時候
00:13
I found myself in my bedroom
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我發現我會在臥室裡
00:15
eating lots of Ben & Jerry's
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大吃冰淇淋
00:18
watching some trashy TV
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看些沒營養的電視節目
00:19
and maybe, maybe listening to Taylor Swift.
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而且也許，也許還會聽聽泰勒絲的歌
00:23
I had just gone through a breakup.
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那時我剛失戀
00:24
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
00:26
So for the longest time, all I would do
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大部分的時間裡我唯一做的事
00:28
is recall the memory of this person over and over again,
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就是再三回憶與她的美好過往
00:32
wishing that I could get rid of that gut-wrenching,
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希望可以擺脫那種撕心裂肺的痛楚
00:34
visceral "blah" feeling.
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希望可以擺脫那種撕心裂肺的痛楚
00:37
Now, as it turns out, I'm a neuroscientist,
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後來我成為一名神經學家
00:39
so I knew that the memory of that person
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所以我清楚關於那人的回憶
00:42
and the awful, emotional undertones that color in that memory,
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和其中隱含的糟糕又情緒化的部分
00:45
are largely mediated by separate brain systems.
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受大腦中不同系統的影響很大
00:47
And so I thought, what if we could go into the brain
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所以我想，要是我們能夠進入腦部
00:50
and edit out that nauseating feeling
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刪除那些難受的情緒
00:52
but while keeping the memory of that person intact?
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同時又保留關於那人的完整記憶，不是很好嗎？
00:55
Then I realized, maybe that's a little bit lofty for now.
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後來我明瞭，也許這對現今而言是有點遙不可及
00:57
So what if we could start off by going into the brain
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要是我們可以從進入大腦裡
01:00
and just finding a single memory to begin with?
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先找到一段記憶作為開始呢？
01:03
Could we jump-start that memory back to life,
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我們能再啟動那段記憶讓它起死回生、
01:05
maybe even play with the contents of that memory?
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甚至玩弄那段記憶的內容嗎？
01:09
All that said, there is one person in the entire world right now
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即便如此，我仍強烈希望她現在沒有看這個演講
01:11
that I really hope is not watching this talk.
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即便如此，我仍強烈希望她現在沒有看這個演講
01:13
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
01:17
So there is a catch. There is a catch.
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還有一個問題，棘手的問題
01:20
These ideas probably remind you of "Total Recall,"
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這些想法可能會讓你聯想到《攔截記憶碼》
01:23
"Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,"
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《王牌冤家》
01:25
or of "Inception."
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或者《全面啟動》
01:27
But the movie stars that we work with
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但是和我們共事的電影明星
01:28
are the celebrities of the lab.
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可是實驗室的名人啊
01:30
Xu Liu: Test mice.
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劉旭：實驗鼠
01:32
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
01:33
As neuroscientists, we work in the lab with mice
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作為神經學家，我們在實驗室用老鼠做實驗
01:36
trying to understand how memory works.
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為了了解記憶是如何運作的
01:40
And today, we hope to convince you that now
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今天，我希望說服你們
01:42
we are actually able to activate a memory in the brain
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我們現在能以光速啟動大腦裡的記憶
01:45
at the speed of light.
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我們現在能以光速啟動大腦裡的記憶
01:48
To do this, there's only two simple steps to follow.
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要做到這點，只需兩個簡單的步驟
01:51
First, you find and label a memory in the brain,
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首先，在大腦裡找到一段記憶並將其標記
01:54
and then you activate it with a switch.
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然後，用開關啟動它
01:58
As simple as that.
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就這麼簡單
01:59
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
02:01
SR: Are you convinced?
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斯蒂夫：你們被說服了嗎？
02:03
So, turns out finding a memory in the brain isn't all that easy.
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其實，要在大腦裡找到一段記憶沒那麼容易
02:07
XL: Indeed. This is way more difficult than, let's say,
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劉旭：的確，這可是比在乾草堆裡找針難多了
02:09
finding a needle in a haystack,
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劉旭：的確，這可是比在乾草堆裡找針難多了
02:12
because at least, you know, the needle is still something
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因為至少，你還能用手抓住那根針
02:14
you can physically put your fingers on.
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因為至少，你還能用手抓住那根針
02:17
But memory is not.
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但記憶卻不行
02:19
And also, there's way more cells in your brain
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而且腦細胞的數量遠勝於
02:22
than the number of straws in a typical haystack.
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乾草堆裡稻草的數量
02:27
So yeah, this task does seem to be daunting.
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所以說，這個工作看來真令人卻步
02:30
But luckily, we got help from the brain itself.
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但幸運的是，大腦給了我們幫助
02:34
It turned out that all we need to do is basically
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事實證明，我們需要做的
02:36
to let the brain form a memory,
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只是讓大腦形成一段記憶
02:38
and then the brain will tell us which cells are involved
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然後大腦就會告訴我們哪些細胞
02:42
in that particular memory.
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和那段記憶有關
02:44
SR: So what was going on in my brain
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斯蒂夫：當回憶前任女友的時候
02:46
while I was recalling the memory of an ex?
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我的大腦是什麼狀況呢？
02:48
If you were to just completely ignore human ethics for a second
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假設你們現在暫且完全無視道德倫常
02:51
and slice up my brain right now,
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把我的大腦切片
02:52
you would see that there was an amazing number
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你們會發現當我回憶她的時候
02:54
of brain regions that were active while recalling that memory.
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大腦的活躍區域數量之驚人
02:57
Now one brain region that would be robustly active
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有一個極其活躍的大腦區域
03:00
in particular is called the hippocampus,
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叫做海馬體
03:02
which for decades has been implicated in processing
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數十年來它一直被視為
處理跟我們所珍視的
與親愛的記憶相關的器官
與親愛的記憶相關的器官
03:05
the kinds of memories that we hold near and dear,
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03:07
which also makes it an ideal target to go into
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它也成為我們試圖尋找、
03:10
and to try and find and maybe reactivate a memory.
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甚至重新啟動某一段記憶的理想目標
03:13
XL: When you zoom in into the hippocampus,
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劉旭：當把海馬體放大
03:15
of course you will see lots of cells,
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你肯定會看到很多細胞
03:17
but we are able to find which cells are involved
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但我們可以找到與某段記憶相關的細胞
03:20
in a particular memory,
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但我們可以找到與某段記憶相關的細胞
03:22
because whenever a cell is active,
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因為，當一個細胞呈現活躍的狀態
03:24
like when it's forming a memory,
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例如一段記憶形成時
03:26
it will also leave a footprint that will later allow us to know
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它也會留下一道印記，好讓我們知道
03:30
these cells are recently active.
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這些細胞最近是活躍的
03:32
SR: So the same way that building lights at night
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斯蒂夫：同樣地，晚上大樓有燈亮著時
03:34
let you know that somebody's probably working there at any given moment,
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你會知道當時應該有人還在那兒工作
03:37
in a very real sense, there are biological sensors
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確切地說，生物傳感器
03:41
within a cell that are turned on
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當一個細胞在工作的時候
03:43
only when that cell was just working.
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就會開啟
03:45
They're sort of biological windows that light up
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它們有點像一個亮著的生物窗
03:47
to let us know that that cell was just active.
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讓我們知道這個細胞是活躍的
03:49
XL: So we clipped part of this sensor,
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劉旭：於是我們剪下部分的傳感器
03:51
and attached that to a switch to control the cells,
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把它粘在細胞的開關上來控制細胞
03:55
and we packed this switch into an engineered virus
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然後把這個開關塞進一個工程病毒裡
03:59
and injected that into the brain of the mice.
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再注入老鼠的大腦
04:01
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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所以，每當一段記憶形成時
04:04
any active cells for that memory
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任何相關的活躍細胞
04:06
will also have this switch installed.
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都會安裝上這個開關
04:09
SR: So here is what the hippocampus looks like
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斯蒂夫：比如說，這就是海馬體
04:10
after forming a fear memory, for example.
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形成一段恐懼記憶後的樣子
04:13
The sea of blue that you see here
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你看到的藍色部份
04:15
are densely packed brain cells,
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就是密集的腦細胞
04:17
but the green brain cells,
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而這些綠色的腦細胞呢
04:19
the green brain cells are the ones that are holding on
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綠色細胞就是與那段特定的恐懼記憶
04:21
to a specific fear memory.
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緊密連結的細胞
04:23
So you are looking at the crystallization
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你們看到的，就是那結晶體
04:25
of the fleeting formation of fear.
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瞬間形成的恐懼結晶體
04:27
You're actually looking at the cross-section of a memory right now.
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此刻你們看到的
其實是一段記憶的橫截面
其實是一段記憶的橫截面
04:31
XL: Now, for the switch we have been talking about,
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劉旭：現在，談談我們剛才提到的開關
04:33
ideally, the switch has to act really fast.
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理想狀態下，它必須運作得非常快
04:36
It shouldn't take minutes or hours to work.
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幾分鐘或幾小時都太久了
04:39
It should act at the speed of the brain, in milliseconds.
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它應以大腦的速度運作，以毫秒為單位
04:43
SR: So what do you think, Xu?
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斯蒂夫：你怎麼看呢，阿旭？
04:44
Could we use, let's say, pharmacological drugs
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我們能不能用像是... 藥
04:47
to activate or inactivate brain cells?
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用藥來啟動或靜止腦細胞？
04:49
XL: Nah. Drugs are pretty messy. They spread everywhere.
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劉旭：算了吧，用藥太麻煩了，搞得到處都是
04:53
And also it takes them forever to act on cells.
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而且要對腦細胞起作用也太久了
04:56
So it will not allow us to control a memory in real time.
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我們不可能透過藥來及時控制記憶
05:00
So Steve, how about let's zap the brain with electricity?
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斯蒂夫，我們電擊大腦怎麼樣？
05:04
SR: So electricity is pretty fast,
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斯蒂夫：電的速度也挺快的
05:06
but we probably wouldn't be able to target it
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但是我們不太可能只擊中
05:08
to just the specific cells that hold onto a memory,
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那些正好與某段記憶密切相關的細胞
05:10
and we'd probably fry the brain.
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而且我們還可能把大腦給電糊了
05:12
XL: Oh. That's true. So it looks like, hmm,
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劉旭：那倒是啊！嗯，那看來
05:15
indeed we need to find a better way
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我們的確需要更好的方法
05:18
to impact the brain at the speed of light.
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以光速來影響大腦
05:21
SR: So it just so happens that light travels at the speed of light.
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斯蒂夫：恰巧，光是以光速行進的
05:26
So maybe we could activate or inactive memories
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若我們要啟動或靜止記憶
05:30
by just using light --
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光也許可以派上用場
05:31
XL: That's pretty fast.
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劉旭：它的確很快
05:33
SR: -- and because normally brain cells
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斯蒂夫：而且，正常情況下腦細胞
05:35
don't respond to pulses of light,
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對光脈衝沒反應
05:36
so those that would respond to pulses of light
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所以，那些對光脈衝有反應的細胞
05:38
are those that contain a light-sensitive switch.
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就是安裝了光感開關的細胞
05:41
Now to do that, first we need to trick brain cells
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要做到這個，我們先要哄騙腦細胞
05:43
to respond to laser beams.
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讓它們對雷射光有反應
05:44
XL: Yep. You heard it right.
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劉旭：對，你們沒聽錯
05:45
We are trying to shoot lasers into the brain.
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我們要把雷射光射入大腦
05:47
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
05:49
SR: And the technique that lets us do that is optogenetics.
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斯蒂夫：光基因技術使之成為可能
05:52
Optogenetics gave us this light switch that we can use
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我們可以使用光基因技術的光開關
05:56
to turn brain cells on or off,
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來啟動或靜止腦細胞
05:57
and the name of that switch is channelrhodopsin,
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這個開關的名字就叫「通道視紫紅質」
（譯註︰又稱「光敏感通道」）
（譯註︰又稱「光敏感通道」）
06:00
seen here as these green dots attached to this brain cell.
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就是這些附在這個細胞上的綠點
06:02
You can think of channelrhodopsin as a sort of light-sensitive switch
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你們可以把通道視紫紅質視為一種光感開關
06:05
that can be artificially installed in brain cells
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它可以以人工的方式安裝在腦細胞上
06:08
so that now we can use that switch
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所以我們可以透過
06:10
to activate or inactivate the brain cell simply by clicking it,
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簡單地按下開關來啟動或靜止腦細胞
06:13
and in this case we click it on with pulses of light.
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這裡呢，我們用光脈衝來開啟它
06:15
XL: So we attach this light-sensitive switch of channelrhodopsin
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劉旭：於是我們把通道視紫紅質光感開關粘到
06:19
to the sensor we've been talking about
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剛才提到的傳感器上
06:21
and inject this into the brain.
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然後將其注入大腦
06:24
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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所以，每當一段記憶形成時
06:27
any active cell for that particular memory
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所有與那段記憶相關的活躍細胞
06:29
will also have this light-sensitive switch installed in it
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都會被安裝上這個光感開關
06:33
so that we can control these cells
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以便我們透過輕擊雷射開關
06:35
by the flipping of a laser just like this one you see.
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來控制這些細胞，就像你們看到的這樣
06:39
SR: So let's put all of this to the test now.
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斯蒂夫：現在讓我們對這些進行測試
06:42
What we can do is we can take our mice
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我們能做的就是把老鼠
06:44
and then we can put them in a box that looks exactly like this box here,
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放進這樣的一個盒子裡
06:47
and then we can give them a very mild foot shock
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輕微地電擊牠們的足部
06:50
so that they form a fear memory of this box.
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牠們對這個盒子便形成恐懼記憶
06:52
They learn that something bad happened here.
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牠們記得在這裡發生過不好的事
06:54
Now with our system, the cells that are active
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現在，透過我們的系統
06:56
in the hippocampus in the making of this memory,
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這些在海馬體內活躍的細胞正形成記憶
06:59
only those cells will now contain channelrhodopsin.
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只有那些細胞才含有通道視紫紅質
07:02
XL: When you are as small as a mouse,
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劉旭：如果你像老鼠一樣小
07:05
it feels as if the whole world is trying to get you.
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你會覺得全世界都想抓住你
07:08
So your best response of defense
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所以你最好的防禦反應
07:10
is trying to be undetected.
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就是盡量不被發現
07:13
Whenever a mouse is in fear,
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當老鼠恐懼的時候
07:15
it will show this very typical behavior
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就會表現出這種典型的行為
07:16
by staying at one corner of the box,
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縮在盒子角落，一動也不動
07:18
trying to not move any part of its body,
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縮在盒子角落，一動也不動
07:21
and this posture is called freezing.
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這個姿勢叫做「行為凍結」
07:24
So if a mouse remembers that something bad happened in this box,
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所以如果老鼠記得
在這個盒子裡發生過不好的事
在這個盒子裡發生過不好的事
07:29
and when we put them back into the same box,
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當我們把牠們放回同一個盒子裡時
07:31
it will basically show freezing
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就會表現出「行為凍結」
07:33
because it doesn't want to be detected
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因為牠不想被盒子裡
07:35
by any potential threats in this box.
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任何對牠構成威脅的物體發現
07:38
SR: So you can think of freezing as,
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斯蒂夫：你們可以把「行為凍結」看作
07:40
you're walking down the street minding your own business,
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當你自顧自的走在街上
07:42
and then out of nowhere you almost run into
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突如其來你差點
07:43
an ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend,
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撞見前女友或前男友
07:46
and now those terrifying two seconds
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在那恐怖的兩秒間隔裡
07:48
where you start thinking, "What do I do? Do I say hi?
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你會想︰「我該怎麼辦？要問好嗎？
07:50
Do I shake their hand? Do I turn around and run away?
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要跟他們握手嗎？我該轉身跑掉嗎？
07:51
Do I sit here and pretend like I don't exist?"
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我該待在原地假裝我不存在嗎？」
07:53
Those kinds of fleeting thoughts that physically incapacitate you,
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那些閃念就會讓你的行為木訥
07:56
that temporarily give you that deer-in-headlights look.
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會讓你當下看起來不知所措一臉茫然
07:59
XL: However, if you put the mouse in a completely different
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然而，如果你把這隻老鼠放到
08:02
new box, like the next one,
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一個全然不同的新盒子裡，比如這個
08:05
it will not be afraid of this box
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牠就不會害怕這個盒子
08:08
because there's no reason that it will be afraid of this new environment.
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因為牠沒理由害怕這個新環境
08:12
But what if we put the mouse in this new box
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但是，若我們把這隻老鼠放到新盒子裡
08:15
but at the same time, we activate the fear memory
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而且同時用雷射啟動牠的恐懼記憶呢？
08:19
using lasers just like we did before?
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就像剛才那樣
08:22
Are we going to bring back the fear memory
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我們能把第一個盒子裡的恐懼記憶
08:25
for the first box into this completely new environment?
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帶到這個新環境嗎？
08:29
SR: All right, and here's the million-dollar experiment.
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斯蒂夫：好，這就是那個寶貴的實驗
08:31
Now to bring back to life the memory of that day,
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現在，把那天的記憶復甦吧
08:34
I remember that the Red Sox had just won,
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我記得紅襪隊剛贏了比賽
08:36
it was a green spring day,
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一個綠意盎然的春日
08:38
perfect for going up and down the river
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正適合去溯溪
08:40
and then maybe going to the North End
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也許再去北城
08:43
to get some cannolis, #justsaying.
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買些奶酪卷，隨便說說而已
08:45
Now Xu and I, on the other hand,
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而阿旭和我呢
08:48
were in a completely windowless black room
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則在一個無窗的黑暗房間裡
08:51
not making any ocular movement that even remotely resembles an eye blink
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目不轉睛連眨眼都沒有
08:54
because our eyes were fixed onto a computer screen.
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因為我們的目光都聚焦在電腦螢幕上
08:57
We were looking at this mouse here trying to activate a memory
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我們正盯著這隻老鼠
08:59
for the first time using our technique.
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首次試著用我們的技術去啟動牠的記憶
09:01
XL: And this is what we saw.
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劉旭：然後我們就看到了這個
09:04
When we first put the mouse into this box,
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當我們第一次把老鼠放進盒子裡
09:06
it's exploring, sniffing around, walking around,
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牠在熟悉環境、四處嗅嗅、到處走動
09:09
minding its own business,
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專注著自己的事
09:11
because actually by nature,
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因為天性使然
09:13
mice are pretty curious animals.
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老鼠的好奇心很強
09:15
They want to know, what's going on in this new box?
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牠們想知道這個新盒子裡是怎樣的
09:17
It's interesting.
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很有趣
09:19
But the moment we turned on the laser, like you see now,
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但是當我們開啟雷射時，就像你看到的
09:22
all of a sudden the mouse entered this freezing mode.
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這隻老鼠突然就進入了「行為凍結」模式
09:25
It stayed here and tried not to move any part of its body.
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牠待在原處試著不移動身體
09:30
Clearly it's freezing.
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很明顯是「行為凍結」
09:31
So indeed, it looks like we are able to bring back
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看起來，我們的確可以喚回
09:34
the fear memory for the first box
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在第一個盒子裡的恐懼記憶
09:36
in this completely new environment.
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並帶到這個全新的環境
09:39
While watching this, Steve and I
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看到這個情況，斯蒂夫和我
09:41
are as shocked as the mouse itself.
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像老鼠一樣震驚
09:44
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
09:45
So after the experiment, the two of us just left the room
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實驗結束後，我們兩人離開了實驗室
09:48
without saying anything.
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什麼也沒說
09:50
After a kind of long, awkward period of time,
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一段又長又尷尬的時間之後
09:53
Steve broke the silence.
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斯蒂夫打破了沉默
09:55
SR: "Did that just work?"
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斯蒂夫：「剛才那個起作用了？」
09:58
XL: "Yes," I said. "Indeed it worked!"
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劉旭：我說「對，起作用了！」
10:01
We're really excited about this.
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我們對此非常興奮
10:03
And then we published our findings
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後來我們把我們的發現
10:05
in the journal Nature.
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發表在《自然》科學期刊上
10:07
Ever since the publication of our work,
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自從發表之後
10:10
we've been receiving numerous comments
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我們得到了無數來自網際網路的評論
10:12
from all over the Internet.
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我們得到了無數來自網際網路的評論
10:14
Maybe we can take a look at some of those.
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也許我們可以看看其中幾篇
「天啊！終於！隨之而來的東西太多了，虛擬現實、神經操縱、夢幻仿真......神經編碼、記憶編輯、心理障礙治療，未來太美好了！」
10:18
["OMGGGGG FINALLY... so much more to come, virtual reality, neural manipulation, visual dream emulation... neural coding, 'writing and re-writing of memories', mental illnesses. Ahhh the future is awesome"]
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10:20
SR: So the first thing that you'll notice is that people
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斯蒂夫：首先你會注意到
10:22
have really strong opinions about this kind of work.
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人們對此類發現懷有強烈的看法
10:25
Now I happen to completely agree with the optimism
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而我剛好對第一個評論的樂觀
10:28
of this first quote,
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抱持完全贊同態度
10:29
because on a scale of zero to Morgan Freeman's voice,
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因為，從零開始到摩根·弗里曼說的話
10:31
it happens to be one of the most evocative accolades
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恰巧成了最引人共鳴的讚揚
10:34
that I've heard come our way.
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而且我已經聽到了
10:35
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
但是，看法也不盡然是剛才那種
10:37
But as you'll see, it's not the only opinion that's out there.
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「這太嚇人了吧，要是他們幾年之後輕易在人身上實驗的話......我們完了！」
10:39
["This scares the hell out of me... What if they could do that easily in humans in a couple of years?! OH MY GOD WE'RE DOOMED"]
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10:41
XL: Indeed, if we take a look at the second one,
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劉旭：的確，如果我們仔細看第二個評論
10:43
I think we can all agree that it's, meh,
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我想我們不得不同意那個看法
10:45
probably not as positive.
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儘管不太正面
10:47
But this also reminds us that,
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但這同時也提醒我們
10:49
although we are still working with mice,
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雖然我們仍用老鼠做實驗
10:52
it's probably a good idea to start thinking and discussing
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但這可能是一個好主意開始去思考與商討
10:55
about the possible ethical ramifications
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關於記憶控制可能衍生的倫理道德上的影響
10:58
of memory control.
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關於記憶控制可能衍生的倫理道德上的影響
11:00
SR: Now, in the spirit of the third quote,
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斯蒂夫：現在，借助第三個評論
11:02
we want to tell you about a recent project that we've been
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我們想告訴大家我們最近的一個實驗計畫
11:04
working on in lab that we've called Project Inception.
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我們稱之為《植入記憶》計畫
11:07
["They should make a movie about this. Where they plant ideas into peoples minds, so they can control them for their own personal gain. We'll call it: Inception."]
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「他們應該據此拍一部電影：他們把思想植入人腦，然後控制那些人去實現他們的目的。稱之為《植入記憶》」
11:10
So we reasoned that now that we can reactivate a memory,
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所以，我們推斷，現在我們可以啟動一段記憶
11:14
what if we do so but then begin to tinker with that memory?
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要是啟動之後我們對那段記憶動手腳呢？
11:17
Could we possibly even turn it into a false memory?
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我們能把它轉變為虛假記憶嗎？
11:20
XL: So all memory is sophisticated and dynamic,
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劉旭：所有記憶都是精密複雜且有活力的
11:24
but if just for simplicity, let's imagine memory
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而為了簡單說明
11:27
as a movie clip.
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我們把記憶想像成一個電影片段
11:28
So far what we've told you is basically we can control
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目前為止我們告訴大家的都是
11:31
this "play" button of the clip
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我們能控制電影片段的「播放鍵」
11:33
so that we can play this video clip any time, anywhere.
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所以我們可以隨時隨地播放這段影像
11:37
But is there a possibility that we can actually get
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但是，有沒有可能我們可以進入大腦裡
11:40
inside the brain and edit this movie clip
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然後編輯這個電影片段
11:43
so that we can make it different from the original?
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以致讓它和原版不同
11:46
Yes we can.
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是的，我們可以做到
11:48
Turned out that all we need to do is basically
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其實我們要做的只是
11:50
reactivate a memory using lasers just like we did before,
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就如先前用雷射去重新啟動一段記憶
11:54
but at the same time, if we present new information
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但同時，如果我們把新訊息呈現出來
11:58
and allow this new information to incorporate into this old memory,
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然後把新訊息與舊記憶合併
12:02
this will change the memory.
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就會改變那段記憶
12:04
It's sort of like making a remix tape.
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這有點像製作混音磁帶
12:08
SR: So how do we do this?
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斯蒂夫：那我們該怎麼做呢？
12:11
Rather than finding a fear memory in the brain,
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與其在大腦裡尋找一段恐懼記憶
12:13
we can start by taking our animals,
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我們可以開始把動物
12:14
and let's say we put them in a blue box like this blue box here
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放進這樣一個藍色盒子裡
12:17
and we find the brain cells that represent that blue box
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然後找到代表這個藍盒子的腦細胞
12:20
and we trick them to respond to pulses of light
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讓它們對光脈衝產生反應
12:22
exactly like we had said before.
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正如我們剛才說的那樣
12:24
Now the next day, we can take our animals and place them
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次日，我們就取出動物把牠們
12:26
in a red box that they've never experienced before.
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放進一個從未待過的紅盒子裡
12:29
We can shoot light into the brain to reactivate
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把雷射光射進牠們的大腦
12:31
the memory of the blue box.
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重新啟動在藍盒子裡的記憶
12:33
So what would happen here if, while the animal
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接下來會發生什麼呢？如果當這個動物
12:35
is recalling the memory of the blue box,
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正回想在藍盒子裡的記憶時
12:36
we gave it a couple of mild foot shocks?
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我們輕微地電擊牠的足部
12:39
So here we're trying to artificially make an association
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現在我們嘗試以人為的方式
12:42
between the memory of the blue box
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建立在藍盒子記憶
12:44
and the foot shocks themselves.
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與足部電擊之間的關聯
12:45
We're just trying to connect the two.
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只是讓兩者聯結起來
12:47
So to test if we had done so,
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為了檢測我們是否成功
12:49
we can take our animals once again
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我們再次取出動物
12:50
and place them back in the blue box.
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並放回到藍盒子裡
12:52
Again, we had just reactivated the memory of the blue box
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我們再次啟動那段藍盒子記憶
12:55
while the animal got a couple of mild foot shocks,
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並同時輕微電擊牠的足部
12:57
and now the animal suddenly freezes.
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這次牠突然僵住了
12:59
It's as though it's recalling being mildly shocked in this environment
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彷彿喚回在這個環境曾被電擊的記憶
13:02
even though that never actually happened.
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儘管那從未發生
13:05
So it formed a false memory,
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牠產生了一段虛假的記憶
13:07
because it's falsely fearing an environment
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因為牠毫無根據地對這個環境感到恐懼
13:09
where, technically speaking,
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在那個環境裡，技術上說來
13:10
nothing bad actually happened to it.
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並沒不好的遭遇
13:13
XL: So, so far we are only talking about
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劉旭：所以目前為止，我們只在談
13:15
this light-controlled "on" switch.
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光控制開關上的「開」鍵
13:18
In fact, we also have a light-controlled "off" switch,
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其實我們也有「關」鍵
13:21
and it's very easy to imagine that
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而且很容易想像
13:23
by installing this light-controlled "off" switch,
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透過安裝這個由光控制的「關」鍵
13:25
we can also turn off a memory, any time, anywhere.
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我們同樣能隨時隨地關閉一段記憶
13:31
So everything we've been talking about today
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今天我們說的一切
13:33
is based on this philosophically charged principle of neuroscience
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都是基於下面這個
神經科學的哲學原則：
神經科學的哲學原則：
13:38
that the mind, with its seemingly mysterious properties,
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雖然記憶看起來神秘難解
13:42
is actually made of physical stuff that we can tinker with.
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其實是由可修補的實體物質所組成
13:46
SR: And for me personally,
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斯蒂夫：對我個人而言
13:47
I see a world where we can reactivate
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我看到了一個世界，一個我們能重新啟動
13:49
any kind of memory that we'd like.
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所有我們想啟動的記憶的世界
13:51
I also see a world where we can erase unwanted memories.
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我們也能刪除所有不想要的記憶
13:54
Now, I even see a world where editing memories
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如今，我甚至看到編輯記憶
13:56
is something of a reality,
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都可能成真
13:58
because we're living in a time where it's possible
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因為，在我們生活的時代
13:59
to pluck questions from the tree of science fiction
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我們能把科幻小說裡的疑問
14:02
and to ground them in experimental reality.
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搬到現實生活中進行檢驗
14:04
XL: Nowadays, people in the lab
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劉旭：現今，全世界無論是從事科研的人
14:06
and people in other groups all over the world
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或其他研究的人
14:08
are using similar methods to activate or edit memories,
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都在運用類似的方法啟動或編輯記憶
14:12
whether that's old or new, positive or negative,
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不管方法是新或舊、正面或負面
14:16
all sorts of memories so that we can understand
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各種的記憶，藉此我們能了解
14:19
how memory works.
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記憶運作的方式
14:20
SR: For example, one group in our lab
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斯蒂夫：比如說，我們實驗室有一個團隊
14:22
was able to find the brain cells that make up a fear memory
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曾找到組成恐懼記憶的細胞
14:25
and converted them into a pleasurable memory, just like that.
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然後把它轉化成了快樂記憶，就像那樣
14:28
That's exactly what I mean about editing these kinds of processes.
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這樣的程序就是我所說的編輯記憶
14:31
Now one dude in lab was even able to reactivate
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我們實驗室有位老兄甚至能重新啟動
14:33
memories of female mice in male mice,
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雄鼠的大腦裡一段有關雌鼠的記憶
14:35
which rumor has it is a pleasurable experience.
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據說那可是相當愉快的經驗啊
14:38
XL: Indeed, we are living in a very exciting moment
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劉旭：的確，我們生長在一個令人非常振奮的時代
14:42
where science doesn't have any arbitrary speed limits
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科學不受任何的限制
14:46
but is only bound by our own imagination.
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唯獨被我們的想像力所局限
14:49
SR: And finally, what do we make of all this?
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斯蒂夫：最後我們能得到什麼？
14:51
How do we push this technology forward?
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我們如何把這個技術深化？
14:53
These are the questions that should not remain
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這些問題不該只留給實驗室
14:55
just inside the lab,
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這些問題不該只留給實驗室
14:57
and so one goal of today's talk was to bring everybody
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而且，今天演講的其中一個目的
14:59
up to speed with the kind of stuff that's possible
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就是為了讓大家知道，現代神經科學
15:02
in modern neuroscience,
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編輯記憶是有可能的
15:03
but now, just as importantly,
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但現在，同等重要的是
15:05
to actively engage everybody in this conversation.
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讓每個人都參與其中共同討論
15:08
So let's think together as a team about what this all means
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所以，讓我們像團隊一樣思考：這些意味著什麼、
15:10
and where we can and should go from here,
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我們能做什麼、應何去何從
15:13
because Xu and I think we all have
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因為阿旭和我認為
15:15
some really big decisions ahead of us.
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有些重大決定等著我們所有人去做
15:17
Thank you.
XL: Thank you.
XL: Thank you.
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謝謝
謝謝
謝謝
15:18
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Steve Ramirez - NeuroscientistWhen Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice.
Why you should listen
Steve is a graduate student at MIT’s Brain and Cognitive Sciences department pursuing a Ph.D. in neuroscience. His work focuses on finding where single memories are located throughout the brain, genetically tricking the brain cells that house these memories to respond to brief pulses of light, and then using these same flickers of light to reactivate, erase and implant memories. The goals of his research are twofold: to figure out how the brain gives rise to the seemingly ephemeral process of memory, and to predict what happens when specific brain pieces breakdown to impair cognition. His work has been published in Science and covered by New Scientist, Discover, Scientific American, and Gizmodo.
Ramirez aims to be a professor who runs a lab that plucks questions from the tree of science fiction to ground them in experimental reality. He believes that a team-oriented approach to science makes research and teaching far more exciting. When he’s not tinkering with memories in the lab, Ramirez also enjoys running and cheering on every sports team in the city of Boston.
Steve Ramirez | Speaker | TED.com
Xu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice.
Why you should listen
During his PhD, Xu Liu studied the mechanisms of learning and memory, using fruit flies as a model system. By changing the expression of certain genes in the fly brain, he generated smart flies that can learn many times faster than their peers. Using live imaging, he also detected learning-induced changes in the brain cells and observed memory formation inside the brain with light.
After graduation, he moved to MIT and joined Dr. Susumu Tonegawa's lab as a postdoctoral associate. He continued his pursuit of memory with light there. Instead of just watching memory formation, he developed a system in mice where one can not only identify and label cells in the brain for a particular memory, but also turn these cells on and off with light to activate this memory at will. This work was published in Science and has been covered by the media worldwide. Liu passed away in February 2015.
Xu Liu | Speaker | TED.com