TEDMED 2014
Debra Jarvis: Yes, I survived cancer. But that doesn't define me
黛柏．賈維斯: 沒錯，我是癌症倖存者，但那不能定義我。
Filmed:
Readability: 3.3
1,110,917 views
黛柏．賈維斯在醫院裡擔任牧師將近三十年時，被醫生診斷出罹患癌症。她當病人的時候學到很多。在這場詼諧、充滿勇氣的演說中，她說明「癌症倖存者」的身分有多麼沉重。她要求我們主張自己最艱難的經驗，也讓自己有成長和進步的空間。
Debra Jarvis - Chaplain + author
Debra Jarvis isn't your typical hospital chaplain. With wry wit, she aims to comfort patients -- and also challenge them. Full bio
Debra Jarvis isn't your typical hospital chaplain. With wry wit, she aims to comfort patients -- and also challenge them. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
I just met you on a bus,
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我剛在公車上碰到你，
00:16
and we would really like
to get to know each other,
to get to know each other,
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而且我們很想認識彼此，
00:19
but I've got to get off at the next stop,
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但我下一站就得下車了，
00:21
so you're going to tell me
three things about yourself
three things about yourself
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所以你要告訴我關於你的三件事，
00:26
that just define you as a person,
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三件能夠定義你這個人的事，
00:30
three things about yourself
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三件關於你的事，
00:31
that will help me understand who you are,
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能夠幫助我了解你是誰，
00:35
three things that just
get to your very essence.
get to your very essence.
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三件直抵你核心的事。
00:39
And what I'm wondering
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我疑惑的是，
00:42
is, of those three things,
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那三件事當中，
00:45
is any one of them
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其中是否有一件
00:47
surviving some kind of trauma?
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是從某種創傷中倖存的經驗？
00:52
Cancer survivor, rape survivor,
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癌症倖存者、性侵倖存者、
00:58
Holocaust survivor, incest survivor.
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大屠殺倖存者、亂倫倖存者。
01:03
Ever notice how we tend to identify ourselves
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你有沒有發現，
我們常用受過的傷來定義自己？
01:07
by our wounds?
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01:09
And where I have seen this survivor identity
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我看到這種倖存者的身分
01:14
have the most consequences
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最常出現在癌症病患身上。
01:16
is in the cancer community.
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01:19
And I've been around this
community for a long time,
community for a long time,
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我在癌症病患的圈子裡很久了，
01:21
because I've been a hospice
and a hospital chaplain
and a hospital chaplain
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因為我擔任一家收容所和醫院的牧師
01:25
for almost 30 years.
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將近三十年了。
01:28
And in 2005, I was working at a big cancer center
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2005 年時，
我在一家大型癌症醫療中心工作，
01:34
when I received the news that
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就在那時我得知
01:36
my mother had breast cancer.
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我媽罹患了乳癌。
01:39
And then five days later,
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五天後，
01:42
I received the news that I had breast cancer.
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我得知自己罹患了乳癌。
01:47
My mother and I can be competitive —
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我和我媽都很好勝，
01:50
(Laughter) —
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（笑聲）
01:51
but I was really not trying to
compete with her on this one.
compete with her on this one.
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但這次我真的不想和她比。
01:56
And in fact, I thought, well,
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事實上，我想，好吧，
01:58
if you have to have cancer,
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如果你得了癌症，
02:00
it's pretty convenient to be working
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在治療的地方工作也蠻方便的。
02:02
at a place that treats it.
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02:03
But this is what I heard from
a lot of outraged people.
a lot of outraged people.
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但我聽到很多氣憤的人說，
02:06
What?
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什麼？
02:07
You're the chaplain.
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你是牧師，
02:09
You should be immune.
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那你應該免疫啊。
02:11
Like, maybe I should have just gotten off
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就像是也許我應該先收到警告就沒事，
02:14
with a warning instead of an actual ticket,
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而不是直接被開罰單，
02:16
because I'm on the force.
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畢竟我是隊上的人。
02:20
So I did get my treatment at the
cancer center where I worked,
cancer center where I worked,
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後來我就在我工作的
那家癌症醫療中心做治療，
那家癌症醫療中心做治療，
02:23
which was amazingly convenient,
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真的超級方便，
02:25
and I had chemotherapy
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我做了化療，
02:27
and a mastectomy, and a saline implant put in,
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做了一次乳房切除和鹽水袋隆乳手術，
02:30
and so before I say another word,
let me just say right now,
let me just say right now,
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在我多說一句話之前，
最好現在就說，
最好現在就說，
02:32
this is the fake one. (Laughter)
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這顆是假的。（笑聲）
02:37
I have found that I need to get that out of the way,
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我發現我得打開天窗說亮話，
02:40
because I'll see somebody go
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因為我會看到有人說：
02:42
"Oh, I know it's this one."
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「噢，我知道是這一顆。」
02:44
And then I'll move or I'll
gesture and they'll go,
gesture and they'll go,
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之後我動了一下，換個姿勢，他們又會說：
02:47
"No, it's that one."
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「噢，是那顆才對。」
02:49
So now you know.
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現在你知道是哪顆了。
02:51
I learned a lot being a patient,
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當病人讓我學到很多，
02:53
and one of the surprising things was
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而且很神奇的是
02:55
that only a small part of the cancer experience
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癌症經驗當中只有一小部分
02:59
is about medicine.
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和醫學有關。
03:01
Most of it is about feelings and faith
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大部分都關於感覺、信仰，
03:06
and losing and finding your identity
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失去、找尋自我身分，
03:08
and discovering strength
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發掘力量，
03:10
and flexibility you never even knew you had.
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以及你從不知道自己有的韌性。
03:14
It's about realizing that
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你會了解
03:16
the most important things in life are
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生命中最重要的事都和事情無關，
03:19
not things at all, but relationships,
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而是和人際關係有關，
03:22
and it's about laughing in the face of uncertainty
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和笑著面對不確定的事物有關，
03:26
and learning that the way to
get out of almost anything
get out of almost anything
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並學會逃離任何事的方法
03:30
is to say, "I have cancer."
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就是說：「我得了癌症。」
03:34
So the other thing I learned was that
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我學到的另一件事就是
03:36
I don't have to take on "cancer survivor"
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我不需要把「癌症倖存者」的角色
03:40
as my identity,
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當做自己的身分，
03:42
but, boy, are there powerful forces
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但卻有一股強大的力量
03:46
pushing me to do just that.
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推著我這麼做。
03:49
Now, don't, please, misunderstand me.
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請別誤會我說的話。
03:53
Cancer organizations
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癌症團體、
03:55
and the drive for early screening
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早期篩檢的慾望、
03:57
and cancer awareness and cancer research
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罹癌意識和癌症調查
04:00
have normalized cancer,
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都讓癌症標準化了，
04:02
and this is a wonderful thing.
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這是很棒的事。
04:03
We can now talk about cancer
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現在我們談論癌症
04:05
without whispering.
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不需要再竊竊私語了。
04:07
We can talk about cancer and
we can support one another.
we can support one another.
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我們談論癌症，還能互相打氣。
04:12
But sometimes, it feels
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但有時候感覺上
04:15
like people go a little overboard
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只要有人表現出一點興趣，
04:16
and they start telling us how we're going to feel.
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他們就能滔滔不絕地說
之後我們會有什麼感覺。
之後我們會有什麼感覺。
04:21
So about a week after my surgery,
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大概在我做完手術一個星期後，
04:25
we had a houseguest.
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有訪客在我家過夜。
04:28
That was probably our first mistake.
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這大概是我們犯的第一個錯誤。
04:31
And keep in mind that
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各位要知道
04:32
at this point in my life
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在我生命中的這個時刻，
04:34
I had been a chaplain for over 20 years,
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我已經當了超過二十年的牧師，
04:37
and issues like dying and death
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像臨終、死亡和生命的意義這些議題
04:40
and the meaning of life,
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04:41
these are all things I'd been
yakking about forever.
yakking about forever.
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都是我以前能說個沒完沒了的話題。
04:45
So at dinner that night,
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所以那天晚餐時，
04:47
our houseguest proceeds to
stretch his arms up over his head,
stretch his arms up over his head,
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客人開始高舉雙手做伸展，
04:50
and say, "You know, Deb,
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他說：「小黛，你知道
04:53
now you're really going to learn what's important.
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現在你真的要了解什麼是重要的事了。
04:57
Yes, you are going to make some big changes
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沒錯，你會在生活上做出一些重大改變，
04:59
in your life,
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05:01
and now you're going to start
thinking about your death.
thinking about your death.
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現在你得開始思考自己的死亡。
05:04
Yep, this cancer is your wakeup call."
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是啊，這癌症是叫醒你的鬧鐘。」
05:10
Now, these are golden words
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這些金玉良言
05:13
coming from someone who is speaking about
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是那些過來人分享自己的經驗，
05:15
their own experience,
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05:17
but when someone is telling you
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但當有人告訴你
05:20
how you are going to feel,
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你之後會有什麼感覺，
05:22
it's instant crap.
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那還真是一派胡言。
05:24
The only reason I did not kill him
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我沒赤手空拳就殺了他的唯一理由
05:27
with my bare hands
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是因為我的右手舉不起來。
05:29
was because I could not lift my right arm.
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05:33
But I did say a really bad word to him,
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但我其實對他說了很難聽的字眼，
05:37
followed by a regular word, that —
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後面再接一個普通的字眼，
05:40
(Laughter) —
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（笑聲）
05:41
made my husband say, "She's on narcotics."
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讓我老公不得不說：「她剛剛吃了藥。」
05:45
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
05:47
And then after my treatment, it just felt like
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在我接受治療之後，
感覺就像每個人都告訴我
我的經驗會有什麼意義。
我的經驗會有什麼意義。
05:49
everyone was telling me what my
experience was going to mean.
experience was going to mean.
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05:53
"Oh, this means you're going to be doing the walk."
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「噢，這表示你得走路。」
05:55
"Oh, this means you're coming to the luncheon."
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「噢，這表示你中午要來聚餐。」
05:57
"This means you're going to be wearing
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「這表示你會穿戴粉紅色緞帶、
05:58
the pink ribbon and the pink t-shirt
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粉紅色圓領衫、
06:01
and the headband and the earrings
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頭巾、耳環、
06:03
and the bracelet and the panties."
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手鐲和內褲。」
06:06
Panties. No, seriously, google it.
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內褲，不會吧，真的，你上網查。
06:10
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
06:12
How is that raising awareness?
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內褲要怎麼提高癌症意識？
06:14
Only my husband should be seeing my panties.
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只有我老公才能看我的內褲呀。
06:16
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
06:17
He's pretty aware of cancer already.
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他對癌症的意識已經夠了。
06:22
It was at that point where I felt like, oh my God,
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那個時候我才覺得，噢！天啊！
06:25
this is just taking over my life.
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我的人生都快被癌症給控制了！
06:28
And that's when I told myself,
claim your experience.
claim your experience.
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就在那個時候我告訴自己，
主張你的經驗。
主張你的經驗。
06:33
Don't let it claim you.
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別讓經驗主張你。
06:37
We all know that
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我們都知道
06:39
the way to cope with trauma, with loss,
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處理創傷、損失
06:43
with any life-changing experience,
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和任何改變生命經驗的方法，
06:45
is to find meaning.
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就是找出意義。
06:48
But here's the thing:
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但問題是，
06:50
No one can tell us
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沒有人能告訴我們
06:51
what our experience means.
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自己的經驗有什麼意義。
06:54
We have to decide what it means.
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我們得自己決定意義。
06:58
And it doesn't have to be some gigantic,
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那不需要是什麼了不起、
07:00
extroverted meaning.
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外顯的意義。
07:02
We don't all have to start a foundation
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我們不必全都去成立基金會、社團，
07:04
or an organization or write a book
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或是寫書、
07:06
or make a documentary.
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拍紀錄片。
07:09
Meaning can be quiet
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意義也可以是寧靜
07:12
and introverted.
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與內斂的。
07:14
Maybe we make one small decision about our lives
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也許我們能為生命做個小決定，
07:20
that can bring about big change.
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讓它帶來大改變。
07:25
Many years ago, I had a patient,
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幾年前，我有個病人，
07:27
just a wonderful young man
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他是個優秀青年，
07:29
who was loved by the staff,
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員工都很喜歡他，
07:32
and so it was something of a shock to us to realize
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所以我們都很驚訝
07:35
that he had no friends.
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他居然沒有朋友。
07:39
He lived by himself,
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他自力更生，
07:41
he would come in for chemotherapy by himself,
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自己一個人來做化療，
07:45
he would receive his treatment,
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他接受治療，
07:47
and then he'd walk home alone.
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然後一個人走路回家。
07:51
And I even asked him. I said, "Hey,
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我還問他：
「嘿！你怎麼都不找個朋友來陪你？」
07:52
how come you never bring a friend with you?"
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07:55
And he said, "I don't really have any friends."
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他說：「我其實沒什麼朋友。」
08:00
But he had tons of friends on the infusion floor.
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但他在注射那個樓層有很多朋友。
08:02
We all loved him, and people were going
in and out of his room all the time.
in and out of his room all the time.
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我們都愛他，也都常進出他的病房。
08:07
So at his last chemo,
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所以他做化療的最後一天，
08:10
we sang him the song
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我們為他唱歌，
08:11
and we put the crown on his
head and we blew the bubbles,
head and we blew the bubbles,
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幫他戴上皇冠，我們還吹泡泡，
08:14
and then I asked him, I said,
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然後我問他：
08:16
"So what are you going to do now?"
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「你之後打算做什麼？」
08:20
And he answered,
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他說：
08:22
"Make friends."
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「交朋友。」
08:24
And he did.
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他真的交了朋友。
08:26
He started volunteering
and he made friends there,
and he made friends there,
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他開始當志工，在那邊交了朋友；
08:30
and he began going to a church
and he made friends there,
and he made friends there,
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他開始上教堂，也在那交了朋友。
08:32
and at Christmas he invited my husband
and me to a party in his apartment,
and me to a party in his apartment,
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他邀請我們夫妻到他家參加聖誕派對，
08:35
and the place was filled with his friends.
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整間都塞滿了他的朋友。
08:40
Claim your experience.
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主張你的經驗，
08:43
Don't let it claim you.
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別讓經驗主張你。
08:44
He decided that the meaning of his experience
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他決定這個經驗的意義
08:49
was to know the joy of friendship,
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是要讓他認識擁有友誼的喜悅，
08:53
and then learn to make friends.
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然後學習交朋友。
08:58
So what about you?
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那你呢？
09:01
How are you going to find meaning
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你要怎麼在碰到的鳥事裡找出意義？
09:04
in your crappy experience?
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09:06
It could be a recent one,
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可能是最近的事，
09:08
or it could be one that you've been carrying around
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或是你背負了很久的事。
09:10
for a really long time.
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09:14
It's never too late to change what it means,
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改變意義永遠都不晚，
09:19
because meaning is dynamic.
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因為意義是動態的。
09:21
What it means today
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今天代表的意義
09:22
may not be what it means a year from now,
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不見得和一年後一樣，
09:24
or 10 years from now.
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或和十年後一樣。
09:27
It's never too late to become someone other
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要跳脫倖存者的身分，變成另一個人，
09:30
than simply a survivor.
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永遠都不遲。
09:33
Hear how static that word sounds?
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你聽那個詞有多沉重？
09:37
Survivor.
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倖存者。
09:39
No movement, no growth.
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沒有動靜，毫無成長。
09:43
Claim your experience.
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主張你的經驗，
09:45
Don't let it claim you, because if you do,
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別讓經驗主張你，因為如果你屈服了，
09:48
I believe you will become trapped,
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我相信你就會變得綁手綁腳，
09:51
you will not grow, you will not evolve.
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不再進步，不再成長。
09:57
But of course, sometimes it's not outside pressures
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但當然有時候並不是外在壓力
10:00
that cause us to take on that identity of survivor.
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讓我們揹起倖存者的身分。
10:04
Sometimes we just like the perks.
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有時候我們就喜歡隨之而來的好處。
10:08
Sometimes there's a payoff.
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有時候會有好處。
10:12
But then we get stuck.
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但之後我們就會陷入膠著。
10:16
Now, one of the first things I learned
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我剛當實習牧師
學到的其中一件事
學到的其中一件事
10:17
as a chaplain intern was the three C's
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就是牧師的 3C 守則：
10:22
of the chaplain's job:
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10:24
Comfort, clarify and, when necessary, confront
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安撫 (comfort)、澄清 (clarify)，
如果需要的話，面對 (confront)，
或是挑戰 (challenge)。
10:31
or challenge.
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10:33
Now, we all pretty much love the comforting
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我們都蠻喜歡安撫和澄清，
10:35
and the clarifying.
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10:37
The confronting, not so much.
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但可不太喜歡面對。
10:42
One of the other things that I loved
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另一件讓我愛上
10:44
about being a chaplain was
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當牧師的事情是
10:46
seeing patients a year, or even several years
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在病人治療一年後，或是幾年後
10:51
after their treatment, because
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和他們見面，
10:53
it was just really cool to see
how they had changed
how they had changed
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看見他們的變化、
10:55
and how their lives had evolved
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他們的生活進展，
10:57
and what had happened to them.
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和他們發生了什麼事，感覺很酷。
10:59
So I was thrilled one day
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有天我非常興奮，
11:02
to get a page down into the lobby of the clinic
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因為我在診所大廳拿到一張紙，
11:04
from a patient who I had seen the year before,
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給我的是去年見過的病人，
11:08
and she was there with her two adult daughters,
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她和兩位成年的女兒一起來，
11:10
who I also knew, for her one year follow-up exam.
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我也都認識，今天是她年度追蹤的回診日。
11:15
So I got down to the lobby, and they were ecstatic
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我到大廳的時候，他們欣喜若狂，
11:18
because she had just gotten
all of her test results back
all of her test results back
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因為她才剛拿到所有的檢驗結果，
11:20
and she was NED: No Evidence of Disease.
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NED，就是「無病徵」
(No Evidence of Disease)。
(No Evidence of Disease)。
11:27
Which I used to think meant Not Entirely Dead.
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我總是把那看做「還有半條命」
(Not Entirely Dead)。
(Not Entirely Dead)。
11:31
So they were ecstatic, we sat down to visit,
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他們欣喜若狂，
我們都坐下，
感覺很怪，
11:37
and it was so weird, because
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因為才短短兩分鐘，她就開始重述
11:40
within two minutes, she
started retelling me the story
started retelling me the story
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11:44
of her diagnosis and her
surgery and her chemo,
surgery and her chemo,
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自己當初確診、手術和化療的故事，
11:48
even though, as her chaplain,
I saw her every week,
I saw her every week,
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即使身為她的牧師，我每週和她見面，
11:52
and so I knew this story.
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我已經知道這個故事了。
11:54
And she was using words like suffering,
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她當時用的字眼都是受難、
11:57
agony, struggle.
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非常痛苦、掙扎。
12:01
And she ended her story with,
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最後她以這句話做結論：
12:04
"I felt crucified."
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「我感覺被釘在十字架上處死了。」
12:09
And at that point, her two
daughters got up and said,
daughters got up and said,
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那時候，她的兩個女兒站起來說：
12:12
"We're going to go get coffee."
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「我們要去買咖啡。」
12:15
And they left.
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然後就離開了。
12:19
Tell me three things about
yourself before the next stop.
yourself before the next stop.
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告訴我關於你的三件事，在抵達下一站之前。
12:21
People were leaving the bus before she even got
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大家都下了公車，
還聽不到她說第二或第三個故事。
12:24
to number two or number three.
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12:30
So I handed her a tissue,
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所以我遞給她一張面紙，
12:33
and I gave her a hug,
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給她一個擁抱，
12:36
and then, because I really cared for this woman,
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因為我真的很關心她，
12:40
I said,
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所以我說：
12:42
"Get down off your cross."
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「從你的十字架上下來吧。」
12:44
And she said, "What?"
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她說：「什麼？」
12:49
And I repeated, "Get down off your cross."
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我又說了一次：
「從你的十字架上下來吧。」
「從你的十字架上下來吧。」
12:54
And to her credit, she could
talk about her reasons
talk about her reasons
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她很棒的是，
能說出接納癌症的理由，
12:59
for embracing and then clinging to this identity.
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然後緊抓住這個身分。
13:04
It got her a lot of attention.
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這件事讓她受到很多關注。
13:06
People were taking care of her for a change.
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換成是別人在照顧她，
不是她要照顧他人，
不是她要照顧他人，
13:09
But now, it was having the opposite effect.
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但現在卻造成了反效果，
13:13
It was pushing people away.
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這件事不斷推開大家。
13:15
People kept leaving to get coffee.
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大家不斷離開去買咖啡，
13:19
She felt crucified by her experience,
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她覺得被自己的經歷
釘在十字架上處死，
釘在十字架上處死，
13:23
but she didn't want to let that crucified self die.
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但她卻不想讓十字架獨自消逝。
13:29
Now, perhaps you are thinking
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也許你會想
13:32
I was a little harsh with her,
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我對她有點嚴厲，
13:35
so I must tell you that
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但我得告訴你，
13:37
I was speaking out of my own experience.
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其實我是在說自己的經驗。
13:41
Many, many years before,
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很多年以前，
13:43
I had been fired from a job that I loved,
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我被炒魷魚，我很愛那個工作，
13:47
and I would not stop talking about my innocence
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當時我無法克制一直說自己有多無辜，
13:50
and the injustice and the betrayal and the deceipt,
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還有那有多不公平、是背叛和欺騙，
直到終於有一天，就像她，
13:54
until finally, just like this woman,
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13:55
people were walking away from me,
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大家開始離我而去，
13:57
until I finally realized
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直到我終於了解
14:00
I wasn't just processing my feelings,
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我不只是處理我的感受，
14:04
I was feeding them.
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我是在加深我的感受。
14:07
I didn't want to let that crucified self die.
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我不肯讓那個十字架獨自消逝。
14:11
But we all know that with any resurrection story,
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但我們都知道每個復活的故事中，
14:16
you have to die first.
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你都得先死。
14:19
The Christian story,
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基督教的故事裡，
14:21
Jesus was dead a whole day in the tomb
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耶穌死了埋在墳裡一整天，
14:24
before he was resurrected.
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之後他才復活。
14:27
And I believe that for us,
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我相信對我們來說，
14:28
being in the tomb
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在墳裡
14:30
means doing our own deep inner work
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意謂著處理我們自己深沉的內在感受，
14:34
around our wounds
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處理我們的傷口，
14:37
and allowing ourselves to be healed.
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允許自己復元。
14:42
We have to let that crucified self die
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我們得讓那個處死的十字架獨自消逝，
14:45
so that a new self, a truer self,
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這樣新的自我、更真實的自我
14:48
is born.
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才能誕生。
14:51
We have to let that old story go
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我們得讓舊的故事隨風而去，
14:54
so that a new story, a truer story,
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這樣新的故事，更真實的故事
14:58
can be told.
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才能被說出來。
15:01
Claim your experience. Don't let it claim you.
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5543
主張自己的經驗，
別讓經驗主張你。
15:06
What if there were no survivors,
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如果沒有倖存者會如何？
15:09
meaning, what if people decided
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意思是，如果每個人決定
15:12
to just claim their trauma as an experience
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2870
主張創傷只是個經驗，
15:15
instead of taking it on as an identity?
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而不把它當做是一種身分，那會如何？
15:19
Maybe it would be the end of being
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也許我們就不會被困在傷口裡，
15:21
trapped in our wounds
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15:23
and the beginning of amazing
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3554
我們就能開啟驚人的
15:27
self-exploration and discovery and growth.
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自我探索、發覺和成長。
15:31
Maybe it would be the start of defining ourselves
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4795
也許那會成為我們定義自己的開端，
15:35
by who we have become
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用我們已經實現
15:38
and who we are becoming.
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和正要變成的自己來定義。
15:42
So perhaps survivor was not
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也許倖存者不在
15:48
one of the three things that you would tell me.
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你想說的三件事裡。
15:53
No matter.
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那也沒關係。
15:54
I just want you all to know that
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我只是想讓你們知道，
15:57
I am really glad that we are on this bus together,
308
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我真的很高興
我們同在這台公車上，
我們同在這台公車上，
16:01
and this is my stop.
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我的站到了。
16:05
(Applause)
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3705
（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Debra Jarvis - Chaplain + authorDebra Jarvis isn't your typical hospital chaplain. With wry wit, she aims to comfort patients -- and also challenge them.
Why you should listen
For writer, ordained minister and hospital chaplain Debra Jarvis, humor is a powerful balm. She is not afraid to be funny even when doing very serious work with the sick and dying as a hospice chaplain, a pastoral consultant for volunteer groups caring for people with AIDS and MS, and a staff chaplain at the Seattle Cancer Care Alliance. Debra is the author of It’s Not About the Hair: And Other Certainties of Life & Cancer and numerous other books. Currently on sabbatical in Geneva, Debra’s last job was as writer-in-residence for the University Congregational United Church of Christ in Seattle. In her free time, Debra accompanies her Cairn terrier Max in his therapy dog work.
Debra Jarvis | Speaker | TED.com