TEDxCannes
Jean-Paul Mari: The chilling aftershock of a brush with death
Jean-Paul Mari: 與死神擦肩而過的餘悸
Filmed:
Readability: 3.2
848,656 views
在 2003 年的四月，正當美國軍隊開始湧入巴格達時，一顆炸彈襲擊了作者兼戰地記者 Jean-Paul Mari 所在的建築。他經歷了一場與死亡面對的較量，也遇到了那個困擾自己的幽靈，就像其他以前在戰場出生入死的人們經歷過的一樣。「什麽可以不留傷疤地殺死你？」Mari 問道。這是我們所熟知的創傷後應激障礙——或如 Mari 所說，是一個面對死亡空間的體驗。在他的演講中，他試圖找尋答案，來回答關於受到恐懼和創傷之後的死亡和精神問題。
Jean-Paul Mari - Journalist and psychologist
Jean-Paul Mari has reported on conflicts in more than three dozen countries. Full bio
Jean-Paul Mari has reported on conflicts in more than three dozen countries. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
It was April 8, 2003.
0
1063
4119
在2003年的4月8日，
00:17
I was in Baghdad,
covering the war in Iraq.
covering the war in Iraq.
1
5856
4525
我在巴格達，報道伊拉克戰爭。
00:22
That day, Americans tanks
started arriving in Baghdad.
started arriving in Baghdad.
2
10405
4658
那一天，美軍的坦克開始抵達巴格達。
00:28
We were just a few journalists
in the Palestine Hotel,
in the Palestine Hotel,
3
16039
5294
我們就是幾個記者而已，
住在巴勒斯坦飯店裏，
住在巴勒斯坦飯店裏，
00:35
and, as happens in war,
4
23435
2423
然後，就像任何戰爭一樣，
00:37
the fighting began to approach
outside our windows.
outside our windows.
5
25882
3004
戰火開始蔓延到我們的窗外。
00:42
Baghdad was covered
in black smoke and oil.
in black smoke and oil.
6
30327
4198
巴格達被黑色的油煙籠罩，
00:46
It smelled awful.
7
34955
1158
味道十分難聞。
00:48
We couldn't see a thing,
but we knew what was happening.
but we knew what was happening.
8
36137
2691
我們什麽都看不到，
但卻知道發生了什麽。
但卻知道發生了什麽。
00:50
Of course, I was supposed
to be writing an article,
to be writing an article,
9
38852
2490
當然，我當時應該在寫一篇文章，
00:53
but that's how it always goes --
10
41366
1536
但事情往往是這樣的：
00:54
you're supposed to be writing
and something big happens.
and something big happens.
11
42926
2638
當你正在寫作時，
一些大事就會發生。
一些大事就會發生。
00:57
So I was in my room on the 16th floor,
12
45588
2727
所以當時我在16層的房間裏，
01:00
writing and looking out the window
every now and then
every now and then
13
48339
2882
邊寫東西邊時不時望向窗外，
01:03
to see what was happening.
14
51245
1784
隨時看著外面的情況。
01:05
Suddenly, there was a huge explosion.
15
53053
2470
突然，一聲巨大的爆炸聲響徹天空。
01:07
During the previous three weeks,
16
55547
1936
在這之前的三週裏，
01:09
there had been shelling
with half-ton missiles,
with half-ton missiles,
17
57507
4119
曾有過半噸重的導彈炮擊，
01:13
but this time, the shock --
18
61650
2190
但這次，我深深地
01:16
I felt it inside of me,
19
64728
2497
感受到了震驚，
01:19
and I thought, "It's very close.
20
67249
2001
我想，“這次太近了。
01:21
It's very, very close."
21
69274
1998
太近了，太近了。”
01:23
So I went down to see what was happening.
22
71296
2380
所以我跑下去看看情況。
01:25
I went down to the 15th floor
23
73700
2689
我下到了15樓
01:29
to take a look.
24
77671
1348
想看一看。
01:31
And I saw people, journalists,
screaming in the hallways.
screaming in the hallways.
25
79043
3152
然後我看到很多人，
記者在走廊裏尖叫。
記者在走廊裏尖叫。
01:34
I walked into a room
26
82670
2231
我走進了一個房間，
01:36
and realized that it had
been hit by a missile.
been hit by a missile.
27
84925
4200
才意識到它已經被一顆導彈擊中。
01:42
Someone had been wounded.
28
90169
2001
有人受傷了。
01:45
There was a man near the window,
29
93304
2068
傷者在靠近窗戶的地方
01:47
a cameraman named Taras Protsyuk,
30
95396
3183
是個叫Taras Protsyuk的攝影師，
01:52
lying face-down.
31
100245
2002
他正臉朝下躺著。
01:58
Having worked in a hospital before,
I wanted to help out.
I wanted to help out.
32
106796
4176
因為我曾經在醫院工作，
我過去幫忙。
我過去幫忙。
02:02
So I turned him over.
33
110996
1501
所以我把他翻過身來，
02:04
And when I turned him over,
34
112521
1702
然後當我把他翻過來時，
02:08
I noticed that he was open
from sternum to pubis,
from sternum to pubis,
35
116334
3151
我發現他從胸骨到恥骨
敞開了一個大口子
敞開了一個大口子
02:11
but I couldn't see anything,
nothing at all.
nothing at all.
36
119509
2110
但是我什麽都看不到，
什麽都沒有。
什麽都沒有。
02:14
All I saw was a white, pearly,
shiny spot that blinded me,
shiny spot that blinded me,
37
122467
6754
我能看到的只是一個白色的亮點，
閃瞎了我的眼睛，
閃瞎了我的眼睛，
02:21
and I didn't understand what was going on.
38
129245
2007
我不明白到底發生了什麽。
02:23
Once the spot disappeared
and I could see his wound,
and I could see his wound,
39
131879
2652
當亮點消失後，
我才看到他的傷口，
我才看到他的傷口，
02:26
which was very serious,
40
134555
1577
傷勢非常嚴重，
02:28
my buddies and I put a sheet
underneath him,
underneath him,
41
136156
2095
我的夥伴跟我一起
把一條床單放在他身下，
把一條床單放在他身下，
02:30
and we carried him onto an elevator
that stopped at each of the 15 floors.
that stopped at each of the 15 floors.
42
138275
3785
然後我們把他擡上了
一個在15層停靠的電梯。
一個在15層停靠的電梯。
02:34
We put him in a car
that took him to the hospital.
that took him to the hospital.
43
142616
2344
我們把他放到車裏，
往醫院開去。
往醫院開去。
02:36
He died on the way to the hospital.
44
144984
1762
他就在去醫院的路上死了。
02:38
The Spanish cameraman José Couso,
who was on the 14th floor and also hit --
who was on the 14th floor and also hit --
45
146770
4990
因為爆炸發生在兩層之間，
02:43
because the shell had exploded
between the two floors --
between the two floors --
46
151784
3310
住在14層的西班牙攝影師
José Couso也被擊中，
José Couso也被擊中，
02:47
died on the operating table.
47
155118
1936
然後在手術臺上去世了。
02:49
As soon as the car left, I went back.
48
157078
2397
車一走，我就回去了。
02:51
There was that article
I was supposed to write --
I was supposed to write --
49
159499
2333
還有一篇我要寫的文章，
02:53
which I had to write.
50
161856
1666
我必須要完成它。
02:56
And so --
51
164117
1729
所以---
02:57
I returned to the hotel lobby
with my arms covered in blood,
with my arms covered in blood,
52
165870
6898
我回到酒店大廳，
胳膊上滿是鮮血，
胳膊上滿是鮮血，
03:04
when one of the hotel gofers stopped me
53
172792
2540
一個酒店的服務生擋住我，
03:07
and asked me to pay the tax
I hadn't paid for 10 days.
I hadn't paid for 10 days.
54
175356
3847
要我付我拖欠了10天稅金。
03:11
I told him to get lost.
55
179227
1808
我讓他走開。
03:13
And I said to myself:
"Clear your head, put it all aside.
"Clear your head, put it all aside.
56
181059
4610
然後我自言自語道：
“冷靜下來，別的都不要管。
“冷靜下來，別的都不要管。
03:19
If you want to write,
you need to put it all aside."
you need to put it all aside."
57
187097
2449
如果你想寫東西，
你就要把這些事放在一邊。“
你就要把這些事放在一邊。“
03:21
And that's what I did.
58
189570
1215
我也是那樣做的。
03:22
I went upstairs, wrote
my article and sent it off.
my article and sent it off.
59
190809
2904
我上了樓，
寫完報道然後發了出去。
寫完報道然後發了出去。
03:27
Later, aside from the feeling
of having lost my colleagues,
of having lost my colleagues,
60
195077
3921
過了一會兒，
除了失去同事的傷痛，
除了失去同事的傷痛，
03:31
something else was bothering me.
61
199895
2523
還有一些情緒困擾著我。
03:34
I kept seeing that shiny, pearly spot,
62
202442
3767
我一直都能看到那個白色的亮點，
03:40
and I couldn't understand what it meant.
63
208735
2388
我也不知道這意味著什麽。
03:43
And then, the war was over.
64
211731
2515
然後，戰爭結束了。
03:48
Later, I thought: "That's not possible.
I can't just not know what happened."
I can't just not know what happened."
65
216572
6096
後來我想：“不可能，
我不可能不知道是怎麽回事。“
我不可能不知道是怎麽回事。“
03:54
Because it wasn't the first time,
and it didn't only happen to me.
and it didn't only happen to me.
66
222692
3461
因為這不是第一次，
而且不止我一個人這樣了。
而且不止我一個人這樣了。
03:58
I have seen things like that
happen to others
happen to others
67
226177
3905
在我20到35年的報道生涯中，
04:02
in my 20 to 35 years of reporting.
68
230106
2668
我見過別人發生了這種事。
04:04
I have seen things
that had an effect on me too.
that had an effect on me too.
69
232798
3286
我自己也看到了一 些東西，
對我產生了一定影響。
對我產生了一定影響。
04:08
For example, there was this man
I knew in Lebanon,
I knew in Lebanon,
70
236108
3045
例如，我在黎巴嫩認識的一個人，
04:11
a 25-year-old veteran
who had been fighting for five years --
who had been fighting for five years --
71
239177
2906
一個25歲的老兵，
有5年的戰爭經驗，
有5年的戰爭經驗，
04:14
a real veteran -- who we would
follow everywhere.
follow everywhere.
72
242107
2343
他是一個真正的老兵，
我們到哪都喜歡跟著他。
我們到哪都喜歡跟著他。
04:16
He would crawl in the dark
with confidence --
with confidence --
73
244474
3486
他能在黑暗中自信匍匐，
04:20
he was a great soldier, a true soldier --
74
248731
2412
是一個厲害的戰士，
真正的戰士，
真正的戰士，
04:23
so we would follow him,
knowing that we would be safe with him.
knowing that we would be safe with him.
75
251167
3357
所以我們願意跟著他，
覺得跟著他就會安全。
覺得跟著他就會安全。
04:26
And one day, as I was told --
76
254548
2308
有一天，我得知--
04:28
and I've seen him again since --
77
256880
1596
在那之後我才見到他--
04:30
he was back in the camp, playing cards,
78
258500
2341
他當時正在營地後面打牌，
04:32
when someone came in next door,
79
260865
1881
突然隔壁闖進來幾個人，
04:36
and discharged their weapon.
80
264158
2136
朝他們開槍。
04:38
As the gun went off,
81
266318
1508
開槍後，
04:39
that blast, that one shot,
made him duck quickly under the table,
made him duck quickly under the table,
82
267850
5555
那突如其來的爆炸聲和亮光，
讓他迅速躲到桌子下面，
讓他迅速躲到桌子下面，
04:46
like a child.
83
274204
1214
就像一個孩子一樣。
04:47
He was shaking, panicking.
84
275442
1891
他全身發抖，陷入了恐慌中。
04:49
And since then, he has never
been able to get up and fight.
been able to get up and fight.
85
277357
4808
然後從那以後，
他再也無法站起來戰鬥了。
他再也無法站起來戰鬥了。
04:54
He ended up working as a croupier
86
282189
2692
他最後在一個貝魯特賭場
04:56
in a Beirut casino
where I later found him,
where I later found him,
87
284905
2122
做了一個賭臺管理人，
我也是在那找到他的。
我也是在那找到他的。
04:59
because he couldn't sleep,
so it was quite a suitable job.
so it was quite a suitable job.
88
287051
2869
因為他睡不著覺，
所以這個賭場的工作還挺適合他的。
所以這個賭場的工作還挺適合他的。
05:02
So I thought to myself,
89
290378
1817
那我就思考了一個問題：
05:04
"What is this thing that can kill you
90
292957
2261
什麽東西可以殺了你，
05:08
without leaving
any visible scars?
any visible scars?
91
296035
4557
並且不留下一道可見的傷疤？
05:12
How does that happen?
92
300974
1983
這是怎麽回事？
05:16
What is this unknown thing?"
93
304040
2000
這個未知的東西是什麽？
05:19
It was too common to be coincidental.
94
307206
4367
這種現象太常見了，不是什麽巧合。
05:23
So I started to investigate --
95
311597
1658
所以我開始著手調查--
05:25
that's all I know how to do.
96
313279
1994
那是我唯一知道怎麽做的事情。
05:27
I started to investigate
97
315297
1843
我的調查手段包括
05:29
by looking through books,
98
317164
2547
查閱書籍，
05:32
reaching out to psychiatrists,
99
320836
2342
與心理醫生溝通，
05:35
going to museums, libraries, etc.
100
323202
2562
去博物館和圖書館等。
05:38
Finally, I discovered
that some people knew about this --
that some people knew about this --
101
326224
4099
最終，我發現
有些人是了解這種現象的--
有些人是了解這種現象的--
05:42
often military psychiatrists --
102
330950
1930
經常是些軍隊上的心理醫生--
05:44
and that what we were dealing with
was called trauma.
was called trauma.
103
332904
4889
我們面對的就是一種叫做創傷的東西。
05:49
Americans call it PTSD
or traumatic neurosis.
or traumatic neurosis.
104
337817
4826
美國人稱它為創傷後應激障礙，
或創傷性神經癥。
或創傷性神經癥。
05:54
It was something
105
342667
1865
這種東西
05:58
that existed,
106
346262
1396
的確是存在的，
06:00
but that we never spoke about.
107
348206
2182
但我們卻從未提起過。
06:04
So, this trauma --
108
352206
1404
那麽，這個創傷，
06:06
what is it?
109
354452
1157
是什麽呢？
06:07
Well, it's an encounter with death.
110
355633
2811
它是與死亡的相遇。
06:11
I don't know if you've ever had
an experience with death --
an experience with death --
111
359126
2802
我不知道你們是否
曾經有過面對死亡的經歷，
曾經有過面對死亡的經歷，
06:13
I'm not talking about dead bodies,
112
361952
1883
我不是說屍體，
06:15
or someone's grandfather
lying in a hospital bed,
lying in a hospital bed,
113
363859
3601
不是說某人的祖父
躺在醫院的病床上，
躺在醫院的病床上，
06:19
or someone who got hit by a car.
114
367484
3574
也不是說誰被車撞了。
06:24
I'm talking about facing
the void of death.
the void of death.
115
372134
4460
我說的是面對死亡的空間。
06:29
And that is something
no one is supposed to see.
no one is supposed to see.
116
377688
6173
而且那應該是一種大家都看不到的東西。
06:35
People used to say,
117
383885
1842
人們經常說，
06:37
"Neither the sun, nor death
can be looked at with a steady eye."
can be looked at with a steady eye."
118
385751
3975
“沒人能盯著太陽和死亡看。“
06:41
A human being should not
have to face the void of death.
have to face the void of death.
119
389750
4234
一個人不應該面對死亡的空間。
06:46
But when that happens,
120
394008
1841
但一旦發生了，
06:49
it can remain invisible for a while --
121
397801
3748
它就會不著痕跡的待上一段時間--
06:53
days, weeks, months, sometimes years.
122
401573
2768
也許是幾天，幾週，
幾個月，有時甚至幾年。
幾個月，有時甚至幾年。
06:56
And then, at some point,
123
404365
1761
然後，在某一個時間點，
06:59
it explodes,
124
407587
1286
它會爆發，
07:00
because it's something
that has entered your brain --
that has entered your brain --
125
408897
3744
因為它已經進入了你的大腦中--
07:04
a sort of window between an image
and your mind --
and your mind --
126
412665
4651
猶如一扇從影像通往你精神的窗戶--
07:09
that has penetrated your brain,
127
417340
2325
已經滲透了妳的大腦，
07:11
staying there and taking up
all the space inside.
all the space inside.
128
419689
4590
留在裏面並占據了所有的空間。
07:17
And there are people --
men, women,
men, women,
129
425541
2649
然後有的人--
男人也好，女人也好，
男人也好，女人也好，
07:20
who suddenly no longer sleep.
130
428858
2638
突然就再也無法入睡了。
07:24
And they experience
horrible anxiety attacks --
horrible anxiety attacks --
131
432376
2345
接下來他們會變得極其憂慮--
07:26
panic attacks, not just minor fears.
132
434745
3030
極其恐慌，
還不僅僅是輕微的害怕。
還不僅僅是輕微的害怕。
07:29
They suddenly don't want to sleep,
133
437799
2306
他們突然就不想睡覺，
07:32
because when they do, they have
the same nightmare every night.
the same nightmare every night.
134
440129
4534
因為如果他們睡覺，
就會每晚做同樣的噩夢。
就會每晚做同樣的噩夢。
07:36
They see the same image every night.
135
444687
1920
每晚都會看到同樣的畫面。
07:38
What type of image?
136
446631
1627
什麽樣的畫面呢？
07:40
For example, a soldier
who enters a building
who enters a building
137
448282
2803
例如，一個士兵走進一棟樓，
07:43
and comes face to face
with another soldier aiming at him.
with another soldier aiming at him.
138
451109
2834
然後面對用槍指著他的另一位士兵。
07:45
He looks at the gun,
straight down the barrel.
straight down the barrel.
139
453967
2563
他看著槍，
直直地盯著槍筒。
直直地盯著槍筒。
07:48
And this barrel suddenly
becomes enormous, deformed.
becomes enormous, deformed.
140
456554
3584
然後槍筒突然就變大了，
走形了。
走形了。
07:52
It becomes fluffy, swallowing everything.
141
460162
2754
開始四處擴撒，
吞噬著周圍的一切。
吞噬著周圍的一切。
07:54
And he says --
142
462940
1600
然後他說--
07:58
later he will say, "I saw death.
143
466376
2342
或來他會說，
“我看到了死亡。
“我看到了死亡。
08:00
I saw myself dead, therefore I'm dead."
144
468742
2501
我看見自己死了，
所以我應該是死了。”
所以我應該是死了。”
08:03
And from then on, he knows he is dead.
145
471267
3857
所以從那之後，
他認為自己死了。
他認為自己死了。
08:07
It is not a perception --
he is convinced that he is dead.
he is convinced that he is dead.
146
475148
4885
這不是一種感知--
他確信自己是死了。
他確信自己是死了。
08:12
In reality, someone came in,
the guy left or didn't shoot, whatever,
the guy left or didn't shoot, whatever,
147
480057
3532
現實情況是，有人闖進來了，
然後離開了或者是根本沒開槍，等等，
然後離開了或者是根本沒開槍，等等，
08:15
and he didn't actually get shot --
148
483613
1647
而且他確實沒有中彈--
08:17
but to him, he died in that moment.
149
485284
1708
但對於他來說，
那一刻的他已經死了。
那一刻的他已經死了。
08:19
Or it can be the smell
of a mass grave --
of a mass grave --
150
487016
2107
那個畫面或許是一片大墓地--
08:21
I saw a lot of that in Rwanda.
151
489147
1805
我在盧旺達就看到了很多。
08:23
It can be the voice of a friend calling,
152
491510
2992
或許是一聲朋友的呼喚，
08:27
and they're being slaughtered
and there's nothing you can do.
and there's nothing you can do.
153
495113
3760
朋友被殺害了，
而你卻什麽也做不了。
而你卻什麽也做不了。
08:30
You hear that voice,
154
498897
1206
你聽到那個聲音，
08:32
and you wake up every night --
for weeks, months --
for weeks, months --
155
500127
5506
然後你每晚會被驚醒--
連續好幾週，好幾月--
連續好幾週，好幾月--
08:37
in a trance-like state,
anxious and terrified,
anxious and terrified,
156
505657
2757
你會處於一種恍惚的狀態，
焦慮，恐懼，
焦慮，恐懼，
08:40
like a child.
157
508438
1355
像個孩子一樣。
08:41
I have seen men cry --
158
509817
1579
我見過男人哭--
08:44
just like children --
159
512652
1363
哭得就像個孩子--
08:46
from seeing the same image.
160
514442
1696
就是因為反復看到那些影像。
08:48
So having that image
of horror in your brain,
of horror in your brain,
161
516162
4766
因此腦子裏有那些恐怖的畫面，
08:54
seeing the void of death --
162
522659
1838
看到死亡的空間--
08:56
that analogue of horror
which is hiding something --
which is hiding something --
163
524521
3705
一種恐怖的畫面隱藏著某些東西--
09:00
will completely take over.
164
528250
1254
將會完完全全控制你。
09:01
You cannot do anything, anything at all.
165
529528
2307
你什麽都做不了。
09:03
You cannot work anymore,
166
531859
1294
你不能再去工作，
09:05
you cannot love anymore.
167
533177
1283
不能再去愛任何人。
09:06
You go home and don't recognize anyone.
168
534484
1927
你回到家卻一個人也認不出。
09:08
You don't even recognize yourself.
169
536435
2007
你甚至都不認不出自己。
09:13
You hide and don't leave the house,
you lock yourself in, you become ill.
you lock yourself in, you become ill.
170
541181
3524
你把自己藏起來不願走出屋子半步，
你把自己鎖起來，開始生病。
你把自己鎖起來，開始生病。
09:16
I know people who placed small cans
outside their house with coins inside,
outside their house with coins inside,
171
544729
4414
我知道有的人
把易拉罐裝滿硬幣放在屋外，
把易拉罐裝滿硬幣放在屋外，
09:21
in case someone tried to get in.
172
549167
1866
以防有人進入。
09:23
All of a sudden, you feel
like you want to die or kill
like you want to die or kill
173
551057
2872
突然間，你想要去死，
或去殺人，
或去殺人，
09:25
or hide or run away.
174
553953
1548
去藏起來或逃跑。
09:27
You want to be loved,
but you hate everyone.
but you hate everyone.
175
555525
2151
你渴望被愛，
但同時你憎恨所有人。
但同時你憎恨所有人。
09:29
It's a feeling that seizes you entirely
176
557700
3913
這種感覺無時無刻
09:34
day in and day out,
177
562644
1731
都在侵蝕著你，
09:36
and you suffer tremendously.
178
564399
3904
你遭受著巨大的痛苦。
09:41
And no one understands.
179
569351
1477
而且沒人會理解你。
09:42
They say, "There's nothing wrong with you.
You seem fine, you have no injuries.
You seem fine, you have no injuries.
180
570852
3768
別人會說，“你沒有任何事情。
你看起來很好啊，也沒有受傷。
你看起來很好啊，也沒有受傷。
09:46
You went to war, came back; you're fine."
181
574644
2494
你去打仗了，回來了；
你現在很好。”
你現在很好。”
09:50
These people suffer tremendously.
182
578231
1882
這些人卻遭受著巨大的痛苦。
09:52
Some commit suicide.
183
580137
1579
有些人自殺了。
09:54
After all, suicide is like updating
your daily planner --
your daily planner --
184
582035
2714
畢竟，自殺就像是
更新一下你的日程表--
更新一下你的日程表--
09:56
I'm already dead,
I might as well commit suicide.
I might as well commit suicide.
185
584773
2311
我反正已經死了，
自殺也沒什麽大不了。
自殺也沒什麽大不了。
09:59
Plus, there is no more pain.
186
587108
1935
另外，也不會有更多的痛苦了。
10:01
Some commit suicide,
others end up under the bridge, drinking.
others end up under the bridge, drinking.
187
589067
4030
有人自殺了，
也有人終日在橋洞裏，酗酒。
也有人終日在橋洞裏，酗酒。
10:05
Everyone remembers
that grandfather or uncle or neighbor
that grandfather or uncle or neighbor
188
593121
4372
每個人都記得自己的祖父，
或者是叔叔，還是鄰居，
或者是叔叔，還是鄰居，
10:09
who used to drink, never said a word,
189
597517
1970
經常喝酒，一句話也不說，
10:11
always in a bad mood, beat his wife
190
599511
1769
總是狀態很糟糕，
毆打妻子，
毆打妻子，
10:13
and who would end up either sinking
into alcoholism or dying.
into alcoholism or dying.
191
601304
4129
最後要麼就被酒精淹沒
要麽就幹脆死了。
要麽就幹脆死了。
10:17
And why do we not talk about this?
192
605457
2780
為什麽我們不談論這種事呢？
10:20
We don't talk about it because it's taboo.
193
608261
3119
我們不談是因為這是禁忌。
10:24
It's not like we don't have the words
to express the void of death.
to express the void of death.
194
612157
3767
這不像是我們沒有語言
去描繪死亡空間。
去描繪死亡空間。
10:27
But others don't want hear it.
195
615948
1768
而是別人根本不想聽。
10:29
The first time I returned
from an assignment,
from an assignment,
196
617740
2114
我第一次出任務回來時，
10:31
They said, "Oh! He's back."
197
619878
1526
別人說，“哦，他回來了！”
10:33
There was a fancy dinner --
white tablecloth, candles, guests.
white tablecloth, candles, guests.
198
621428
3096
然後一起共進隆重的晚餐--
有白色的桌布、蠟燭，和賓客。
有白色的桌布、蠟燭，和賓客。
10:36
"Tell us everything!"
199
624548
1192
“快跟我們說說都發生了什麽！”
10:37
Which I did.
200
625764
1323
我這樣做了。
10:40
After 20 minutes, people
were giving me dirty looks,
were giving me dirty looks,
201
628075
2484
20分鐘後，人們臉色都不好看。
10:42
the hostess had her nose in the ashtray.
202
630583
2005
女主人的臉都要埋到煙灰缸裏了。
10:44
It was horrible and I realized
I ruined the whole evening.
I ruined the whole evening.
203
632612
2971
場面很可怕，
然後我意識到我毀了一個美好的晚上。
然後我意識到我毀了一個美好的晚上。
10:47
So I don't talk about it anymore.
204
635607
1909
所以我以後再也不要談了。
10:49
We're just not ready to listen.
205
637540
1541
我們只是沒有做好聆聽的準備。
10:51
People say outright: "Please, stop."
206
639105
1728
人們會直截了當的說：
“請不要再說了。”
“請不要再說了。”
10:52
Is that a rare occurrence?
207
640857
2097
這是一個偶爾發生的事嗎？
10:54
No, it's extremely common.
208
642978
2402
不，這絕對是普遍存在的。
10:57
One third of the soldiers
who died in Iraq --
who died in Iraq --
209
645404
2153
三分之一的士兵
在伊拉克死亡--
在伊拉克死亡--
10:59
well, not "died," let me re-phrase that --
210
647581
2522
好，不是”死了“，
讓我換個說法--
讓我換個說法--
11:02
one third of the US soldiers
who went to Iraq
who went to Iraq
211
650127
3140
三分之壹的士兵，
去了伊拉克
去了伊拉克
11:05
suffer from PTSD.
212
653291
1638
就會經歷創傷後應激障礙。
11:06
In 1939, there were still 200,000 soldiers
from the First World War
from the First World War
213
654953
5921
1939年，仍有20萬參加過一戰的士兵
11:12
that were being treated
in British psychiatric hospitals.
in British psychiatric hospitals.
214
660898
3375
在英國的精神病醫院接受治療。
11:17
In Vietnam, 54,000 people died --
215
665066
2434
在越南，五萬四千人死亡--
11:19
Americans.
216
667524
1343
都是美國人。
11:20
In 1987, the US government
identified 102,000 --
identified 102,000 --
217
668891
4173
1987年，美國政府確認有十萬兩千名--
11:25
twice as many --
218
673088
1214
幾乎是在越南死亡人數的兩倍--
11:26
102,000 veterans who died
from committing suicide.
from committing suicide.
219
674326
2624
十萬兩千名老兵自殺身亡。
11:28
Twice as many deaths by suicide
than by combat in Vietnam.
than by combat in Vietnam.
220
676974
2816
自殺身亡的人數是越南戰死人數的兩倍。
11:31
So you see, this relates to everything,
221
679814
3158
因此大家看到，
這關乎著所有的一切，
這關乎著所有的一切，
11:34
not just modern warfare,
but also ancient wars --
but also ancient wars --
222
682996
2339
不僅是現代戰爭，
以前的戰爭同樣如此--
以前的戰爭同樣如此--
11:37
you can read about it,
the evidence is there.
the evidence is there.
223
685359
2999
你可以查閱相關資料，
證據就明擺在那裏。
證據就明擺在那裏。
11:40
So why do we not talk about it?
224
688382
2245
那麽我們為什麽不談論它呢？
11:42
Why have we not talked about it?
225
690651
2445
我們為什麽從沒有談論過呢？
11:45
The problem is that
if you don't talk about it,
if you don't talk about it,
226
693120
4468
問題在於
如果你不想談論這個話題，
如果你不想談論這個話題，
11:50
you're heading for disaster.
227
698642
1595
你會走向災難。
11:53
The only way to heal --
228
701528
2815
治愈的唯一方法--
11:56
and the good news here
is that this is treatable --
is that this is treatable --
229
704367
3198
好消息是這是可以治療的--
12:00
think Munch's The Scream, Goya, etc. --
230
708829
2071
想一想蒙克的吶喊、
戈雅，等等--
戈雅，等等--
12:02
it's indeed treatable.
231
710924
1285
這的確是可以治療的。
12:04
The only way to heal from this trauma,
232
712233
4560
從這種創傷中治愈的唯一方法，
12:08
from this encounter with death
that overwhelms, petrifies and kills you
that overwhelms, petrifies and kills you
233
716817
5056
不再讓這種與死亡相遇的經歷
淹沒你，毀掉你的唯一方法，
淹沒你，毀掉你的唯一方法，
12:13
is to find a way to express it.
234
721897
4000
就是想辦法去表達出來。
12:18
People used to say,
235
726540
1739
人們常說，
12:20
"Language is the only thing
that holds all of us together."
that holds all of us together."
236
728303
3567
“語言是唯一能把我們
維繫在一起的東西”
維繫在一起的東西”
12:23
Without language, we're nothing.
237
731894
2341
離開語言，
我們什麽也不是。
我們什麽也不是。
12:26
It's the thing that makes us human.
238
734259
2617
是語言是我們成為人類。
12:28
In the face of such a horrible image --
239
736900
1977
面對如此可怕的影像--
12:30
a wordless image of oblivion
that obsesses us --
that obsesses us --
240
738901
5526
一個困擾著我們的
無可名狀的影像--
無可名狀的影像--
12:36
the only way to cope with it
241
744451
2459
唯一對付它的方法
12:40
is to put human words to it.
242
748109
2101
就是把它變成人類的語言。
12:42
Because these people
feel excluded from humanity.
feel excluded from humanity.
243
750234
2426
因為這些人感覺自己失去了人性。
12:44
No one wants to see them anymore
and they don't want to see anyone.
and they don't want to see anyone.
244
752684
3206
沒有人想見到他們，
他們也不想見到任何人。
他們也不想見到任何人。
12:47
They feel dirty, defiled, ashamed.
245
755914
2421
他們覺得自己骯臟，受到了玷汙，
並為此感到可恥。
並為此感到可恥。
12:50
Someone said, "Doctor,
I don't use the subway anymore
I don't use the subway anymore
246
758359
3244
有人說：“醫生，
我再也沒有坐地鐵了
我再也沒有坐地鐵了
12:53
because I'm afraid people
will see the horror in my eyes."
will see the horror in my eyes."
247
761627
3214
因為我怕別人
看到我眼中的恐懼。”
看到我眼中的恐懼。”
12:56
Another guy thought he had
a terrible skin disease
a terrible skin disease
248
764865
2866
還有一個人認為
他得了一種可怕的皮膚病
他得了一種可怕的皮膚病
12:59
and spent six months with dermatologists,
going from doctor to doctor.
going from doctor to doctor.
249
767755
3837
花了整整六個月
去看各種皮膚科醫生。
去看各種皮膚科醫生。
13:03
And then one day, they sent him
to a psychiatrist.
to a psychiatrist.
250
771616
2539
後來，他們把這個人
送到了心理醫生那。
送到了心理醫生那。
13:06
During his second session,
he told the psychiatrist
he told the psychiatrist
251
774179
2405
在第二個療程的時候，
他告訴心理醫生
他告訴心理醫生
13:08
he had a terrible skin disease
from head to toe.
from head to toe.
252
776608
2330
他得了可怕的皮膚病，
從頭到腳都是。
從頭到腳都是。
13:10
The psychiatrist asked,
"Why are you in this state?"
"Why are you in this state?"
253
778962
2919
醫生問：
“你為什麽會這樣認為？”
“你為什麽會這樣認為？”
13:13
And the man said, "Well, because
I'm dead, so I must be rotting away."
I'm dead, so I must be rotting away."
254
781905
3326
然後這個人回答：“因為
我已經死了，我的身體肯定腐爛了。”
我已經死了，我的身體肯定腐爛了。”
13:17
So you see this is something
that has a profound effect on people.
that has a profound effect on people.
255
785255
4413
所以你看這就是
能給人留下深刻影響的東西。
能給人留下深刻影響的東西。
13:21
In order to heal,
we need to talk about it.
we need to talk about it.
256
789692
2409
想要治愈，
我們需要去談論它。
我們需要去談論它。
13:24
The horror needs to be put into words --
257
792125
3944
要把恐懼用語言表達出來--
13:28
human words, so we can organize it
and talk about it again.
and talk about it again.
258
796093
4183
人類的語言，所以我們能重新整理
並再次談論它。
並再次談論它。
13:32
We have to look death in the face.
259
800300
4142
我們必須要直面死亡。
13:37
And if we can do that,
if we can talk about these things,
if we can talk about these things,
260
805061
5095
如果我們能做到，
如果我們能談論這些事情，
如果我們能談論這些事情，
13:42
then step by step,
by working it out verbally,
by working it out verbally,
261
810180
3425
然後逐漸的，
通過用語言表達的方法，
通過用語言表達的方法，
13:45
we can reclaim our place in humanity.
262
813629
2928
我們能夠重新找回人性。
13:49
And it is important.
263
817549
1264
而且這很重要。
13:50
Silence kills us.
264
818837
1688
沈默可以殺掉我們。
13:53
So what does this mean?
265
821789
1422
那這意味著什麽呢？
13:55
It means that after a trauma,
266
823235
2016
這意味著在受到創傷後，
13:57
without question, we lose
our "unbearable lightness of being,"
our "unbearable lightness of being,"
267
825275
3635
毫無疑問，我們失去了
“生命不能承受之輕”，
“生命不能承受之輕”，
14:00
that sense of immortality
that keeps us here --
that keeps us here --
268
828934
2754
就是那種讓我們存在的不朽感--
14:03
meaning, if we're here, we almost feel
like we're immortal, which we're not,
like we're immortal, which we're not,
269
831712
3912
就是說，如果我們存在，我們差不多感覺
自己是不朽的，當然我們不是，
自己是不朽的，當然我們不是，
14:07
but if we didn't believe that,
we'd say, "What's the point of it all?"
we'd say, "What's the point of it all?"
270
835648
3343
但是如果我們不相信，
那這一切還有什麽意義呢？
那這一切還有什麽意義呢？
14:11
But trauma survivors have lost
that feeling of immortality.
that feeling of immortality.
271
839015
2790
但是受到創傷的人
會感覺不到這種不朽感。
會感覺不到這種不朽感。
14:13
They've lost their lightness.
272
841829
1395
他們已經失去了這個信念。
14:15
But they have found something else.
273
843248
1739
但同時他們也找到了其他的東西。
14:17
So this means that if we manage
to look death in the face,
to look death in the face,
274
845011
3260
所以這意味著
如果我們能直面死亡，
如果我們能直面死亡，
14:21
and actually confront it,
rather than keep quiet and hide,
rather than keep quiet and hide,
275
849546
4902
實實在在的面對它，
而不是保持沈默或躲藏，
而不是保持沈默或躲藏，
14:26
like some of the men or women I know did,
276
854472
2479
像我知道的有些男人或女人一樣，
14:28
such as Michael from Rwanda,
Carole from Iraq, Philippe from the Congo
Carole from Iraq, Philippe from the Congo
277
856975
6654
例如盧旺達的 Michael，
伊拉克的Carole，剛果的Philippe
伊拉克的Carole，剛果的Philippe
14:35
and other people I know,
278
863653
1226
以及其他我認識的人，
14:36
like Sorj Chalandon, now a great writer,
279
864903
2098
像Sorj Chalandon，
現在是一位著名作家，
現在是一位著名作家，
14:39
who gave up field assignments
after a trauma.
after a trauma.
280
867025
2291
他在一次創傷後不再出外勤。
14:41
Five friends of mine committed suicide,
281
869340
2218
我有五個朋友自殺了，
14:43
they're the ones
who did not survive the trauma.
who did not survive the trauma.
282
871582
2576
他們就是沒能
在創傷中存活下來的人。
在創傷中存活下來的人。
14:46
So if we can look death in the face,
283
874182
5546
所以如果我們能直面死亡，
14:51
if we, mortal humans, human mortals,
284
879752
2778
如果我們肉體凡身的人類，
14:54
understand that we are human
and mortal, mortal and human,
and mortal, mortal and human,
285
882554
2841
能明白我們是人類，
我們是終有一死的，
我們是終有一死的，
14:57
if we can confront death
and identify it once again
and identify it once again
286
885419
6247
如果我們能面對死亡
並再次將它看作
並再次將它看作
15:03
as the most mysterious place
of all mysterious places,
of all mysterious places,
287
891690
3063
是所有神秘地方中
最最神秘的寸土，
最最神秘的寸土，
15:07
since no one has ever seen it --
288
895570
2556
因為沒有人見過--
15:10
if we can give it back this meaning,
289
898150
2663
如果我們能還原死亡的意義，
15:12
yes, we may die,
290
900837
2841
是的，我們會死，
15:17
survive
291
905686
1595
就能存活下來
15:20
and come back to life,
292
908011
1427
回歸生命，
15:21
but we'll come back stronger than before.
293
909462
3093
但我們回來時要比以前更堅強，
15:24
Much stronger.
294
912579
1310
無比堅強。
15:25
Thank you.
295
913913
1154
謝謝大家。
15:27
(Applause)
296
915091
1767
觀眾鼓掌。
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jean-Paul Mari - Journalist and psychologistJean-Paul Mari has reported on conflicts in more than three dozen countries.
Why you should listen
Journalist and international correspondent, psychologist and physiotherapist, Jean-Paul Mari published several hundred reports abroad and several works.
He produced a documentary, Irak: quand les soldats meurent (Iraq, wen the soldiers die), as well as a movie, Sans blessures apparentes (Without Visible Wounds), based on his book of the same name, for which he won the 2010 Grand Prix et le Prix du Public. In 2009, he was the recipient of the Grand prix des lectrices de Elle
He is the creator and the manager of grands-reporters.com and has just published a novel, La Tentation d'Antoine (The Temptation of Antoine).
Jean-Paul Mari | Speaker | TED.com