TEDxUniversityofNevada
David Burkus: Why you should know how much your coworkers get paid
大衛·布爾庫斯: 為什麼你應該知道你的同事得到多少薪水
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你得到多少薪資？ 你的薪資與你工作的人比較怎麼樣？ 你應該知道，他們也應該知道，管理研究員大衛·布爾庫斯說。 在這次演講中，布爾庫斯質疑我們關於保持薪水秘密的文化假設，並提出一個令人信服的案例，為什麼分享它們可以使員工，組織和社會受益。
David Burkus - Management researcher
David Burkus challenges the traditional and widely accepted principles of business management. Full bio
David Burkus challenges the traditional and widely accepted principles of business management. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
How much do you get paid?
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你有多少薪水？
00:15
Don't answer that out loud.
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不必大聲回答。
00:17
But put a number in your head.
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但在腦中想一下。
00:20
Now: How much do you think the person
sitting next to you gets paid?
sitting next to you gets paid?
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現在，你認為坐在你旁邊的這個人
有多少薪水？
有多少薪水？
00:25
Again, don't answer out loud.
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同樣地，不必大聲講出來。
00:27
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
00:29
At work, how much do you think
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在你的工作中，你認為多少薪水，
00:31
the person sitting in the cubicle
or the desk next to you gets paid?
or the desk next to you gets paid?
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是坐在隔壁裡的人
或者你隔壁桌的人應該要得到的？
或者你隔壁桌的人應該要得到的？
00:35
Do you know?
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你知道嗎？
00:36
Should you know?
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你應該知道嗎？
00:38
Notice, it's a little uncomfortable for me
to even ask you those questions.
to even ask you those questions.
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注意，問你這些問題甚至都
讓我有點不舒服。
讓我有點不舒服。
00:42
But admit it -- you kind of want to know.
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但不得不承認你想知道。
00:46
Most of us are uncomfortable with the idea
of broadcasting our salary.
of broadcasting our salary.
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我們大多數人對說出我們的薪水
這個想法感到不舒服。
這個想法感到不舒服。
00:50
We're not supposed to tell our neighbors,
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我們不應該告訴鄰居，
00:52
and we're definitely not supposed
to tell our office neighbors.
to tell our office neighbors.
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我們也絕對不應該
告訴我們的同事。
告訴我們的同事。
00:55
The assumed reason is that if everybody
knew what everybody got paid,
knew what everybody got paid,
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假設的原因是如果大家
互相知道誰得了多少薪水，
互相知道誰得了多少薪水，
00:59
then all hell would break loose.
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那麼就會天下大亂。
01:01
There'd be arguments, there'd be fights,
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会有爭論与戰鬥，
01:03
there might even be a few people who quit.
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甚至可能有幾個人辭職。
01:05
But what if secrecy is actually
the reason for all that strife?
the reason for all that strife?
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但如果實際上保密是
所有的爭鬥的原因會如何？
所有的爭鬥的原因會如何？
01:09
And what would happen
if we removed that secrecy?
if we removed that secrecy?
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如果我們去除那個
保密的潛規則又會發生什麼？
保密的潛規則又會發生什麼？
01:12
What if openness actually increased
the sense of fairness and collaboration
the sense of fairness and collaboration
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如果實際上在一個公司裡，
開放可以讓人覺得公平和協作
開放可以讓人覺得公平和協作
01:16
inside a company?
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又會如何？
01:17
What would happen if we had
total pay transparency?
total pay transparency?
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如果我們將薪資透明化
會發生什麼？
會發生什麼？
01:22
For the past several years,
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過去幾年，
01:23
I've been studying the corporate
and entrepreneurial leaders
and entrepreneurial leaders
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我研究了公司和創業領袖
01:26
who question the conventional wisdom
about how to run a company.
about how to run a company.
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關於如何運作一個公司的共同看法。
01:30
And the question of pay keeps coming up.
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薪水的問題不斷出現，
01:33
And the answers keep surprising.
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但是他們的回答一直很讓人驚奇。
01:36
It turns out that pay transparency --
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事實證明，公開工資，
01:38
sharing salaries openly
across a company --
across a company --
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跨公司分享工資資料，
01:40
makes for a better workplace
for both the employee
for both the employee
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能為每位員工還有組織
01:43
and for the organization.
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製造一個更好的工作環境。
01:45
When people don't know how their pay
compares to their peers',
compares to their peers',
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當人們不知道相比於同齡人
他們的薪水情況如何，
他們的薪水情況如何，
01:48
they're more likely to feel underpaid
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他們更有可能
覺得自己的薪水太少，
覺得自己的薪水太少，
01:50
and maybe even discriminated against.
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甚至可能感到受到歧視。
01:52
Do you want to work at a place
that tolerates the idea
that tolerates the idea
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你想在一個容忍這個想法的地方工作嗎？
01:55
that you feel underpaid
or discriminated against?
or discriminated against?
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你覺得太少 或歧視？
01:58
But keeping salaries secret
does exactly that,
does exactly that,
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但保持薪水秘密就是這樣，
02:01
and it's a practice
as old as it is common,
as old as it is common,
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這是一種很普通的做法，
02:04
despite the fact
that in the United States,
that in the United States,
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儘管事實在美國，
02:06
the law protects an employee's right
to discuss their pay.
to discuss their pay.
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法律保障一位員工討論薪水的權益。
02:11
In one famous example from decades ago,
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在幾十年前的一個著名例子中，
02:13
the management of Vanity Fair magazine
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Vanity Fair雜誌的管理者，
02:16
actually circulated a memo entitled:
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實際上分發了一份備忘錄，題為：
02:18
"Forbidding Discussion Among
Employees of Salary Received."
Employees of Salary Received."
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“禁忌的討論”
02:21
"Forbidding" discussion among
employees of salary received.
employees of salary received.
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其中禁止討論員工的薪資。
02:25
Now that memo didn't sit well
with everybody.
with everybody.
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現在大家沒有攜帶備忘錄。
紐約媒體指出，
Dorothy Parker。
Dorothy Parker。
02:27
New York literary figures
Dorothy Parker,
Dorothy Parker,
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02:29
Robert Benchley and Robert Sherwood,
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Robert Benchley，
Robert Sherwood，
Robert Sherwood，
02:31
all writers in the Algonquin Round Table,
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還有在Algonquin Round Table的作家，
02:33
decided to stand up for transparency
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決定堅持薪資透明。
02:35
and showed up for work the next day
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並在第二天現身工作时
02:37
with their salary written on signs
hanging from their neck.
hanging from their neck.
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将他們的薪水寫在
掛在他們脖子的工資牌上。
掛在他們脖子的工資牌上。
02:40
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
02:42
Imagine showing up for work
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想像現身工作时
02:44
with your salary just written
across your chest for all to see.
across your chest for all to see.
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你的薪水寫在牌子上，
讓所有人都看到。
讓所有人都看到。
02:49
But why would a company even want
to discourage salary discussions?
to discourage salary discussions?
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但是為什麼公司會想要
以阻止工資討論？
以阻止工資討論？
02:52
Why do some people go along with it,
while others revolt against it?
while others revolt against it?
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為什麼有些人喜歡它，
而其他人反對它？
而其他人反對它？
02:57
It turns out that in addition
to the assumed reasons,
to the assumed reasons,
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事實證明一种假設的原因，
03:00
pay secrecy is actually a way
to save a lot of money.
to save a lot of money.
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是因為工資保密其實是一種
節省很多錢的方式。
節省很多錢的方式。
03:04
You see, keeping salaries secret
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你看，保持薪資秘密，
03:06
leads to what economists call
"information asymmetry."
"information asymmetry."
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導致經濟學家所說的
“信息不對稱”。
“信息不對稱”。
03:09
This is a situation where,
in a negotiation,
in a negotiation,
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在這情況談判的雙方
03:11
one party has loads more
information than the other.
information than the other.
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一方比一方有更多資訊。
03:14
And in hiring or promotion
or annual raise discussions,
or annual raise discussions,
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在招聘、升職、加薪的討論中，
03:18
an employer can use that secrecy
to save a lot of money.
to save a lot of money.
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雇主可以使用這種保密方式
節省很多錢。
節省很多錢。
03:22
Imagine how much better
you could negotiate for a raise
you could negotiate for a raise
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想像一下如果你知道每個人的薪資，
03:25
if you knew everybody's salary.
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你会要到多少加薪。
03:29
Economists warn that information asymmetry
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經濟學家警告說信息不對稱
03:32
can cause markets to go awry.
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可能會導致市場出差錯。
03:33
Someone leaves a pay stub on the copier,
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有人在印表機上不小心遺留一張工資表，
03:35
and suddenly everybody
is shouting at each other.
is shouting at each other.
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然後大家突然互相喊叫。
03:38
In fact, they even warn
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事實上，他們互相警告：
03:40
that information asymmetry
can lead to a total market failure.
can lead to a total market failure.
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信息不對稱
可能導致整個市場失靈。
可能導致整個市場失靈。
03:46
And I think we're almost there.
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我認為我們正處在這個邊緣。
03:48
Here's why:
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這就是為甚麼：
03:49
first, most employees have no idea
how their pay compares to their peers'.
how their pay compares to their peers'.
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第一，大多數的員工沒有
比較他們的薪資的想法。
比較他們的薪資的想法。
03:54
In a 2015 survey of 70,000 employees,
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在2015年對70,000名員工的調查中，
03:58
two-thirds of everyone who is paid
at the market rate
at the market rate
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三分之二的人按市場利率付費的員工
04:02
said that they felt they were underpaid.
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表示他們覺得自己工資不高。
04:05
And of everybody who felt
that they were underpaid,
that they were underpaid,
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對於所有感覺到
自己沒有得到足夠薪水的人，
自己沒有得到足夠薪水的人，
04:07
60 percent said
that they intended to quit,
that they intended to quit,
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60％的打算辭職，
04:10
regardless of where they were --
underpaid, overpaid
underpaid, overpaid
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不管他們的實際工資 -
是少付，是多付
是少付，是多付
04:13
or right at the market rate.
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或是隨著市場利率變動。
04:16
If you were part of this survey,
what would you say?
what would you say?
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如果你是這調查的一部分
，你會說甚麼？
，你會說甚麼？
04:18
Are you underpaid?
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你會感到不舒服嗎？
04:19
Well, wait -- how do you even know,
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等一下-你如何知道？
04:22
because you're not allowed
to talk about it?
to talk about it?
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因為你不被允許談論這話題？
04:24
Next, information asymmetry, pay secrecy,
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其次，信息不對稱，工資保密，
04:28
makes it easier to ignore
the discrimination
the discrimination
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使其更容易忽略或歧視
04:31
that's already present
in the market today.
in the market today.
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已經存在於現在的市場中。
04:34
In a 2011 report from the Institute
for Women's Policy Research,
for Women's Policy Research,
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2011年，一项研究所的
婦女政策的報告指出，
婦女政策的報告指出，
04:37
the gender wage gap
between men and women
between men and women
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男人和女人之間的工資差距
04:40
was 23 percent.
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有23℅。
04:42
This is where that 77 cents
on the dollar comes from.
on the dollar comes from.
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這就是一美元与77美分的出处。
04:45
But in the Federal Government,
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但是在聯邦政府，
04:47
where salaries are pinned
to certain levels
to certain levels
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固定薪水一定是處於水平值，
04:49
and everybody knows
what those levels are,
what those levels are,
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然後大家都知道這些水平值。
04:51
the gender wage gap
shrinks to 11 percent --
shrinks to 11 percent --
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性別工資差距则收縮至11％。
04:53
and this is before controlling
for any of the factors
for any of the factors
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這沒有控制其他變數，
04:55
that economists argue over
whether or not to control for.
whether or not to control for.
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而經濟學家爭論是否應當控制。
04:59
If we really want to close
the gender wage gap,
the gender wage gap,
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如果我們真的想減少
性別工資差距，
性別工資差距，
05:01
maybe we should start
by opening up the payroll.
by opening up the payroll.
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或許我們應該從公佈工資開始。
05:04
If this is what total
market failure looks like,
market failure looks like,
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如果市場失靈，
05:08
then openness remains
the only way to ensure fairness.
the only way to ensure fairness.
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那公開薪資会是確保公平的唯一方法。
05:12
Now, I realize that letting people
know what you make
know what you make
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現在，我意識到讓人們
知道你做什麼
知道你做什麼
05:14
might feel uncomfortable,
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可能讓你感到不自在，
05:16
but isn't it less uncomfortable
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但不會超過
05:18
than always wondering
if you're being discriminated against,
if you're being discriminated against,
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總是想知道
你是否受到歧視，
你是否受到歧視，
05:20
or if you wife or your daughter
or your sister is being paid unfairly?
or your sister is being paid unfairly?
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或你的妻子或女兒或姐妹
是否被克扣薪水的不自在。
是否被克扣薪水的不自在。
05:25
Openness remains the best way
to ensure fairness,
to ensure fairness,
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公開是確保公平的最佳方法，
05:29
and pay transparency does that.
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薪資透明也是其中一種。
05:31
That's why entrepreneurial leaders
and corporate leaders
and corporate leaders
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這就是為什么商界領袖和企業領導
05:34
have been experimenting
with sharing salaries for years.
with sharing salaries for years.
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多年来一直在嘗試公开工資，
05:37
Like Dane Atkinson.
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像Dane Atkinson一樣。
05:38
Dane is a serial entrepreneur
who started many companies
who started many companies
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Dane是一個開創很多公司的企業家，
05:42
in a pay secrecy condition
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他在薪酬保密狀態下发工資，
05:44
and even used that condition
to pay two equally qualified people
to pay two equally qualified people
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甚至對兩個同等資格的人
05:47
dramatically different salaries,
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开出顯著不同的薪水，
05:49
depending on how well
they could negotiate.
they could negotiate.
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取决於他們多會談判。
05:52
And Dane saw the strife
that happened as a result of this.
that happened as a result of this.
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Dane看到了結果導致的衝突
05:55
So when he started
his newest company, SumAll,
his newest company, SumAll,
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所以當他成立SumAll公司，
05:58
he committed to salary transparency
from the beginning.
from the beginning.
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他一開始就把薪資透明化，
06:01
And the results have been amazing.
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效果比預期的好。
06:04
And in study after study,
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在大量研究中，
06:06
when people know
how they're being paid
how they're being paid
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當人們知道他的薪水
06:07
and how that pay compares to their peers',
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和同事相比處於什麼水平，
06:10
they're more likely to work hard
to improve their performance,
to improve their performance,
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他們會更加努力來提升業績，
06:12
more likely to be engaged,
and they're less likely to quit.
and they're less likely to quit.
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更多參與，更少辭職。
06:15
That's why Dane's not alone.
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這就是為甚麼模仿Dane的人越來越多
06:17
From technology start-ups like Buffer,
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從類似 Buffer 的初創科技公司，
06:19
to the tens of thousands
of employees at Whole Foods,
of employees at Whole Foods,
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到有數萬員工的Whole Foods。
06:23
where not only is your salary
available for everyone to see,
available for everyone to see,
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不但大家的薪資都透明化，
06:26
but the performance data
for the store and for your department
for the store and for your department
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且每個分店、每個部門的業績數據，
06:29
is available on the company intranet
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可在公司網頁上查得，
06:31
for all to see.
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供所有人查看。
06:33
Now, pay transparency
takes a lot of forms.
takes a lot of forms.
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實際上，薪資透明有很多種方法，
06:36
It's not one size fits all.
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並不是一成不變的。
06:38
Some post their salaries for all to see.
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有的公司把薪資向所有人公開，
06:40
Some only keep it inside the company.
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有些只在公司內部公開。
06:42
Some post the formula for calculating pay,
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一些公开職位薪水的計算公式，
06:45
and others post the pay levels
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另一些公開薪資分級
06:47
and affix everybody to that level.
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並告知每個人所處的等級。
06:49
So you don't have to make signs
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所以你不需做薪資牌，
06:51
for all of your employees
to wear around the office.
to wear around the office.
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以便員工在辦公室穿著。
06:53
And you don't have to be
the only one wearing a sign
the only one wearing a sign
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你也不必是
唯一一個穿著標誌的——
唯一一個穿著標誌的——
06:56
that you made at home.
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那是你在家裡做的。
06:58
But we can all take greater steps
towards pay transparency.
towards pay transparency.
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但我們都可以
更大步地走向薪酬透明。
更大步地走向薪酬透明。
07:02
For those of you that have the authority
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對於那些有權利
07:04
to move forward towards transparency:
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推動薪資透明化的人：
07:06
it's time to move forward.
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是時候向前邁進了。
07:07
And for those of you
that don't have that authority:
that don't have that authority:
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對於沒有那個權力的你們：
07:10
it's time to stand up for your right to.
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現在是時候為你的權益站出來。
07:13
So how much do you get paid?
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所以你得到多少薪資？
07:16
And how does that compare
to the people you work with?
to the people you work with?
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跟你的同事比你的薪資如何？
07:19
You should know.
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你應該知道，
07:21
And so should they.
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他們也應該。
07:23
Thank you.
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謝謝你
07:25
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
David Burkus - Management researcherDavid Burkus challenges the traditional and widely accepted principles of business management.
Why you should listen
David Burkus is an author, podcaster and associate professor of management at Oral Roberts University. His latest book, Under New Management, challenges traditional principles of business management and argues that many of them are outdated, outmoded or simply don't work -- and reveals what does. He is also the author of The Myths of Creativity: The Truth About How Innovative Companies and People Generate Great Ideas.
Burkus is a regular contributor to Harvard Business Review and Inc. magazine. His work has been featured in Fast Company, the Financial Times, Bloomberg BusinessWeek and "CBS This Morning." He's also the host of the award-winning podcast Radio Free Leader.
When he's not speaking or writing, Burkus is in the classroom. At Oral Roberts University, he teaches courses on organizational behavior, creativity and innovation, and strategic leadership. He serves on the advisory board of Fuse Corps, a nonprofit dedicated to making transformative and replicable change in local government.
Burkus lives in Tulsa with his wife and their two boys.
David Burkus | Speaker | TED.com