ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Salil Dudani - Legal activist
Salil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing.

Why you should listen

As a John Gardner Public Service fellow, Salil Dudani worked on civil rights cases challenging debtors' prisons and money bail. These included cases in Ferguson, Missouri, where people who could not pay fines and court fees were routinely jailed; Rutherford County, Tennessee, where a private probation company would extort impoverished probationers with the threat of jail; and San Francisco and Houston, where thousands of people are in jail cells every night because they cannot afford to post bail. Before this work, Salil was a defense investigator at the Public Defender Service in Washington, D.C. He is now a student at Yale Law School.

More profile about the speaker
Salil Dudani | Speaker | TED.com
TEDxStanford

Salil Dudani: How jails extort the poor

沙利爾‧杜達尼: 牢獄如何壓榨窮人

Filmed:
1,115,590 views

人為何要因為貧窮而入獄?目前美國有 50 萬人只是因為負擔不起保釋金而被囚禁。並有更多的人因無法清償法院方面的債務而受羈押,原因包括像是欠交違規停車罰款這種小事。沙利爾‧杜達尼分享他親身經歷密蘇里州佛格遜欠債人牢獄的人的所見所聞,叫我們從另一角度思考我們是如何懲處貧窮和社會邊緣人士。
- Legal activist
Salil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
One summer夏季 afternoon下午 in 2013,
0
678
2596
2013 年夏天的一個下午,
00:15
DCDC police警察 detained被拘留, questioned質疑
and searched搜索 a man
1
3298
3128
華盛頓警察以某男子面目可疑、
可能是危險分子為由
而予以拘留、問話、搜身。
00:18
who appeared出現 suspicious可疑
and potentially可能 dangerous危險.
2
6450
3092
00:22
This wasn't what I was wearing穿著
the day of the detention拘留, to be fair公平,
3
10316
3445
我被拘留時並非穿着這件衣服,
00:25
but I have a picture圖片 of that as well.
4
13785
1823
但當時穿的衣服我也有拍照。
00:27
I know it's very frightening可怕的 --
try to remain calm冷靜.
5
15632
2696
我知道這件衣服有點刺激眼睛——
拜託你們還是冷靜一下吧。
00:30
(Laughter笑聲)
6
18352
1093
(笑聲)
00:31
At this time, I was interning實習
7
19469
2422
當時我在華盛頓
00:33
at the Public上市 Defender辯護人 Service服務
in Washington華盛頓 DCDC,
8
21915
2732
「公設辯護律師服務」見習,
00:36
and I was visiting訪問
a police警察 station for work.
9
24671
2419
因工作關係到訪一間警局。
00:39
I was on my way out,
10
27114
1160
當我正在離開、
00:40
and before I could make it to my car汽車,
11
28298
1992
還未走到我的車前,
00:42
two police警察 cars汽車 pulled up
to block my exit出口,
12
30314
2301
就被兩輛警車上前堵住去路,
00:44
and an officer approached接近 me from behind背後.
13
32639
2331
其中一名警員從後向我靠近。
00:46
He told me to stop, take my backpack背包 off
14
34994
2272
他叫我停下、放下背包、
00:49
and put my hands on the police警察 car汽車
parked next下一個 to us.
15
37290
3076
把雙手放在停在旁邊的警車。
00:52
About a dozen officers長官
then gathered雲集 near us.
16
40800
2995
隨後多名警員圍着我們,
00:55
All of them had handguns手槍,
17
43819
1247
他們每一名都荷槍,
00:57
some had assault突擊 rifles步槍.
18
45090
1340
甚至突擊步槍。
00:58
They rifled膛線 through通過 my backpack背包.
19
46454
1734
他們搜查我的背包,
01:00
They patted拍拍 me down.
20
48212
1405
搜身,
01:01
They took pictures圖片 of me
spread傳播 on the police警察 car汽車,
21
49641
2361
拍下我趴在警車上的照片,
01:04
and they laughed笑了.
22
52026
1156
然後放聲大笑。
01:05
And as all this was happening事件 --
23
53206
1540
當這一切都在進行時——
01:06
as I was on the police警察 car汽車 trying
to ignore忽視 the shaking發抖 in my legs,
24
54770
3250
我在警車旁試着不理會
自己發抖的雙腿,
01:10
trying to think clearly明確地
about what I should do --
25
58044
2335
並細心思考我應該如何做時——
01:12
something stuck卡住 out to me as odd.
26
60403
1999
我發現了一些怪事。
01:14
When I look at myself in this photo照片,
27
62426
1994
當我望着這幅照片時,
01:16
if I were to describe描述 myself,
28
64444
1835
若要我形容自己,
01:18
I think I'd say something like,
29
66303
1787
我會說:
01:20
"19-year-old-歲 Indian印度人 male,
bright T-shirtT恤衫, wearing穿著 glasses眼鏡."
30
68114
5389
「 19 歲印度裔男性,
鮮色汗衫、架着眼鏡。」
01:25
But they weren't including包含
any of these details細節.
31
73527
2281
但警察們並沒有記錄這些明細。
01:27
Into their police警察 radios收音機
as they described描述 me,
32
75832
2250
他們在對講機上形容我時,
01:30
they kept不停 saying, "Middle中間 Eastern
male with a backpack背包.
33
78106
2632
不停說:「帶着背包的中東裔男子。
01:32
Middle中間 Eastern male with a backpack背包."
34
80762
2029
帶着背包的中東裔男子。」
01:34
And this description描述 carried攜帶的 on
into their police警察 reports報告.
35
82815
3073
這些內容都記錄在警察報告上。
01:38
I never expected預期 to be described描述
by my own擁有 government政府 in these terms條款:
36
86419
4606
我從來沒想過自己的
政府用這些字眼形容我:
01:43
"lurking潛伏,"
37
91049
1258
「鬼鬼崇崇」、
01:45
"nefarious邪惡,"
38
93301
1231
「心術不正」、
01:47
"terrorist恐怖分子."
39
95832
1160
「恐怖分子」。
01:49
And the detention拘留 dragged on like this.
40
97016
1943
拘留過程不停重覆這些動作:
01:50
They sent發送 dogs小狗 trained熟練 to smell explosives炸藥
to sweep the area I'd been in.
41
98983
3878
他們把受過嗅辨爆炸品訓練的警犬
帶過來掃視我踏足的地方,
01:54
They called the federal聯邦 government政府
to see if I was on any watch lists名單.
42
102885
3427
他們詢問聯邦政府
我是否在監視名單,
01:58
They sent發送 a couple一對 of detectives偵探
to cross-examine盤問 me on why,
43
106336
2851
他們派數名探員盤問我:
02:01
if I claimed聲稱 I had nothing to hide隱藏,
44
109211
2116
既然我聲稱自己沒有任何隱瞞,
那為何不允許他們搜查我的車?
02:03
I wouldn't不會 consent同意 to a search搜索 of my car汽車.
45
111351
2046
02:05
And I could see
they weren't happy快樂 with me,
46
113421
2061
我感覺到他們對我不滿,
02:07
but I felt I had no way of knowing會心
what they'd他們會 want to do next下一個.
47
115506
3083
但我無從知道他們
下一步要我做甚麼。
02:10
At one point, the officer
who patted拍拍 me down
48
118613
2897
那個把我搜身的警員甚至
02:13
scanned掃描 the side of the police警察 station
to see where the security安全 camera相機 was
49
121534
3530
查看警局旁哪裡有保安攝錄器,
02:17
to see how much of this
was being存在 recorded記錄.
50
125088
2872
以知道他們對我做的事
有多少被錄下來。
02:19
And when he did that,
51
127984
1168
當他這樣做時,
02:21
it really sank沉沒 in how completely全然
I was at their mercy憐憫.
52
129176
3470
我終於明白:人為刀俎,我為魚肉。
02:24
I think we're all normalized標準化
from a young年輕 age年齡
53
132670
2423
相信我們自小都習慣了
02:27
to the idea理念 of police警察 officers長官
and arrests逮捕 and handcuffs手銬,
54
135117
3753
警員用手鐐逮捕疑犯,
02:30
so it's easy簡單 to forget忘記 how demeaning貶低
and coercive強制 a thing it is
55
138894
3942
所以他們要控制別人身體時,
02:34
to seize搶占 control控制 over
another另一個 person's人的 body身體.
56
142860
2905
我們不覺得這是侮辱。
02:37
I know it sounds聲音 like
the point of my story故事
57
145789
2045
大家或會覺得我只不過想說
02:39
is how badly treated治療 I was
because of my race種族 --
58
147858
2442
我都是因為種族身分
而被粗暴對待——
02:42
and yes, I don't think I would've會一直 been
detained被拘留 if I were white白色.
59
150324
3120
如果我是白人,一定不會被拘留。
02:45
But actually其實, what I have in mind心神
today今天 is something else其他.
60
153468
2739
但我現在想到另一樣東西:
02:48
What I have in mind心神 is how
much worse更差 things might've可能已經 been
61
156231
2718
如果我不是家境富裕的話,
02:50
if I weren't affluent富裕的.
62
158973
1164
我的遭遇或會更差。
02:52
I mean, they thought I might威力 be trying
to plant an explosive爆炸物,
63
160161
2918
他們以為我埋下爆炸品,
02:55
and they investigated調查 that possibility可能性
for an hour小時 and a half,
64
163103
3169
因而花了一小時半進行調查,
02:58
but I was never put in handcuffs手銬,
65
166296
1712
但我從沒被扣上手鐐,
03:00
I was never taken採取 to a jail監獄 cell細胞.
66
168032
2012
也從沒被帶進牢房。
03:02
I think if I were from one of Washington華盛頓
DC'sDC的 poor較差的 communities社區 of color顏色,
67
170068
4060
如果我是華盛頓貧窮
有色人種社區的一員,
03:06
and they thought I was
endangering危害 officers'長官' lives生活,
68
174152
2423
而且警員認為我危害他們性命安全,
03:08
things might've可能已經 ended結束 differently不同.
69
176599
1621
事情發展可能完全不一樣。
03:10
And in fact事實, in our system系統, I think
it's better to be an affluent富裕的 person
70
178244
3404
在這制度下,作為一個富裕人士
被懷疑引爆警局,
03:13
suspected嫌疑 of trying
to blow打擊 up a police警察 station
71
181672
2288
03:15
than it is to be a poor較差的 person
72
183984
1667
總比作為一個窮人好過,
03:17
who's誰是 suspected嫌疑 of much,
much less than this.
73
185675
2657
富人被懷疑程度遠比窮人低。
03:20
I want to give you an example
from my current當前 work.
74
188356
2575
讓我從目前的工作舉個例子說明。
03:23
Right now, I'm working加工
at a civil國內 rights權利 organization組織 in DCDC,
75
191309
3250
目前我任職於華盛頓的民權組織,
它叫做「法律之下司法平等」。
03:26
called Equal等於 Justice正義 Under Law.
76
194583
2332
03:28
Let me start開始 by asking you all a question.
77
196939
2909
首先讓我問大家一條問題:
03:31
How many許多 of you have ever gotten得到
a parking停車處 ticket in your life?
78
199872
2987
有誰曾經收過違規停車罰單?
03:34
Raise提高 your hand.
79
202883
1164
請舉手。
03:36
Yeah. So have I.
80
204071
1946
我也收過。
03:38
And when I had to pay工資 it,
81
206041
1333
我要繳交罰款時,
03:39
it felt annoying惱人的 and it felt bad,
82
207398
2031
覺得這實在討厭,感覺糟透,
03:41
but I paid支付 it and I moved移動 on.
83
209453
1916
但我最後都繳交了事。
03:43
I'm guessing揣測 most of you
have paid支付 your tickets門票 as well.
84
211393
2691
相信在座大部分人都曾繳交罰款。
03:46
But what would happen發生 if you
couldn't不能 afford給予 the amount on the ticket
85
214616
4287
但若各位無力負擔罰款、
03:50
and your family家庭 doesn't have
the money either, what happens發生 then?
86
218927
3170
家人也無力負擔罰款會怎辦﹖
03:54
Well, one thing that's not supposed應該
to happen發生 under the law is,
87
222121
2991
法律下不能容許發生的事之一,
03:57
you're not supposed應該 to be
arrested被捕 and jailed獲刑
88
225136
2104
就是不能因為無力繳交罰款
03:59
simply只是 because you can't afford給予 to pay工資.
89
227264
2096
就被逮捕和囚禁。
04:01
That's illegal非法 under federal聯邦 law.
90
229384
1804
這是違反聯邦法律的,
04:03
But that's what local本地 governments政府
across橫過 the country國家 are doing
91
231212
2928
然而全國的地方政府都對窮人
04:06
to people who are poor較差的.
92
234164
1157
進行這種違法的事。
04:07
And so many許多 of our lawsuits訴訟
at Equal等於 Justice正義 Under Law
93
235345
2920
「法律之下司法平等」
處理的很多訴訟,
04:10
target目標 these modern-day現代 debtors'債務人“ prisons監獄.
94
238289
2453
都是針對現代版「欠債人牢獄」。
04:13
One of our cases is against反對
Ferguson弗格森, Missouri密蘇里州.
95
241771
2721
其中一單訴訟是針對
密蘇里州佛格遜政府。
04:16
And I know when I say Ferguson弗格森,
96
244516
1824
當我提到佛格遜這名字,
04:18
many許多 of you will think of police警察 violence暴力.
97
246364
2098
大家或會聯想起警察暴力事件。
04:20
But today今天 I want to talk
about a different不同 aspect方面
98
248486
2287
但我今天要從另一角度
04:22
of the relationship關係 between之間
their police警察 force and their citizens公民.
99
250797
3466
談警民關係。
04:26
Ferguson弗格森 was issuing發行 an average平均
of over two arrest逮捕 warrants認股權證,
100
254287
3534
佛格遜政府每年平均向每人發出
04:29
per person, per year,
101
257845
2007
超過兩項逮捕令,
04:31
mostly大多 for unpaid未付 debt債務 to the courts法院.
102
259876
2248
大部分都是為法院追討欠債。
04:34
When I imagine想像 what that would feel like
if, every一切 time I left my house,
103
262996
4023
當我想起如果每次我離開住所後,
04:39
there was a chance機會 a police警察 officer
would run my license執照 plate盤子,
104
267043
3100
我或被警員根據車牌號碼翻查資料,
04:42
see a warrant保證 for unpaid未付 debt債務,
105
270167
1691
以欠債為由發出逮捕令、
04:43
seize搶占 my body身體 they way the did in DCDC
106
271882
2130
就像在華盛頓時把我的身體按下、
04:46
and then take me to a jail監獄 cell細胞,
107
274036
1917
然後把我送進牢房時,
04:47
I feel a little sick生病.
108
275977
1634
我就會渾身不自在。
04:50
I've met會見 many許多 of the people in Ferguson弗格森
who have experienced有經驗的 this,
109
278838
3156
我在佛格遜遇過有這些經歷的人,
04:54
and I've heard聽說 some of their stories故事.
110
282018
1787
也聽過他們的親身經歷。
04:55
In Ferguson's弗格森的 jail監獄,
111
283829
1368
在佛格遜的監獄,
04:57
in each small cell細胞,
there's a bunk假寐 bed and a toilet廁所,
112
285221
3109
每個小牢房都有
一張雙層床和一個馬桶,
05:00
but they'd他們會 pack four people
into each cell細胞.
113
288354
2302
但每個牢房卻擠著四個人。
05:02
So there'd這紅色 be two people on the bunks舖位
and two people on the floor地板,
114
290680
3115
兩人睡在床上,兩人睡地板,
05:05
one with nowhere無處 to go except
right next下一個 to the filthy污穢 toilet廁所,
115
293819
2927
骯髒的馬桶就在咫尺,
05:08
which哪一個 was never cleaned清洗.
116
296770
1160
從來沒有清潔過。
05:09
In fact事實, the whole整個 cell細胞 was never cleaned清洗,
117
297954
2163
其實整個牢房都沒有清潔過,
05:12
so the floor地板 and the walls牆壁 were lined
with blood血液 and mucus粘液.
118
300141
3555
地板和牆上滿是血跡和粘液。
05:16
No water to drink,
119
304088
1150
沒有任何飲用水,
05:17
except coming未來 out of a spigot塞子
connected連接的 to the toilet廁所.
120
305262
2704
只有來自馬桶的水。
05:19
The water looked看著 and tasted dirty,
121
307990
1720
馬桶水看上去很骯髒,
其味道也是如此,
05:21
there was never enough足夠 food餐飲,
122
309734
1515
從來沒有足夠食物,
05:23
never any showers陣雨,
123
311273
1548
從來沒有機會淋浴,
05:24
women婦女 menstruating月經
without any hygiene衛生 products製品,
124
312845
2790
女士月經時沒有衞生用品可用,
05:27
no medical attention注意 whatsoever任何.
125
315659
1694
得不到任何醫療協助。
05:29
When I asked a woman女人
about medical attention注意,
126
317377
2180
當我問她們其中一位
有否得到醫療協助時,
05:31
she laughed笑了, and she said, "Oh, no, no.
127
319581
2395
她失笑並說:「當然沒有。
05:34
The only attention注意 you get
from the guards衛士 in there is sexual有性."
128
322000
3145
獄卒反而只有興趣跟我們性交。」
05:37
So, they'd他們會 take the debtors債務人
to this place地點 and they'd他們會 say,
129
325838
2720
他們只把欠債人帶進監獄並說:
05:40
"We're not letting出租 you leave離開
until直到 you make a payment付款 on your debt債務."
130
328582
3536
「未能還清債務就休想離開。」
05:44
And if you could -- if you
could call a family家庭 member會員
131
332142
2630
如果你可以致電家人求助、
05:46
who could somehow不知何故 come up with some money,
132
334796
2141
叫他們給你一點錢的話,
05:48
then maybe you were out.
133
336961
1393
你就可以離開。
05:50
If it was enough足夠 money, you were out.
134
338378
2159
錢足夠的話,你才可以走。
05:52
But if it wasn't, you'd stay there
for days or weeks,
135
340561
3318
錢不夠的話就要在這裡多呆幾天,
05:55
and every一切 day the guards衛士
would come down to the cells細胞
136
343903
2786
每天獄卒就會來到牢房,
05:58
and haggle討價還價 with the debtors債務人
about the price價錢 of release發布 that day.
137
346713
3387
跟欠債人爭辯交多少錢才可以離開。
06:02
You'd stay until直到, at some point,
the jail監獄 would be booked預訂 to capacity容量,
138
350625
4122
監獄總會有滿額的一天,
06:06
and they'd他們會 want to book someone有人 new in.
139
354771
1950
他們要帶新人進來時,
06:08
And at that point, they'd他們會 think,
140
356745
1561
就會這樣考慮:
06:10
"OK, it's unlikely不會 this person
can come up with the money,
141
358330
2755
「這個人怕是還不起錢了,
反而新人更有可能還錢。」
06:13
it's more likely容易 this new person will."
142
361109
1860
舊人出新人入,系統就是這樣運作。
06:14
You're out, they're in,
and the machine kept不停 moving移動 like that.
143
362993
2978
06:17
I met會見 a man who,
144
365995
2026
我曾經見過
06:20
nine years年份 ago, was arrested被捕
for panhandling乞討 in a Walgreens沃爾格林.
145
368045
4267
一位九年前因在藥房
行乞而被捕的男子。
06:24
He couldn't不能 afford給予 his fines罰款
and his court法庭 fees費用 from that case案件.
146
372336
4056
他無力繳付罰款和訴訟堂費。
06:28
When he was young年輕
he survived倖存 a house fire,
147
376416
2996
他年輕時在家居火災生還,
06:31
only because he jumped跳下 out
of the third-story第三,故事 window窗口 to escape逃逸.
148
379436
2973
但只因為他是從三樓窗戶躍下逃生。
06:34
But that fall秋季 left him
with damage損傷 to his brain
149
382433
2201
這一跳令他腦部
06:36
and several一些 parts部分 of this body身體,
including包含 his leg.
150
384658
2435
以及大腿等身體部位受損。
因此他無法工作,
06:39
So he can't work,
151
387117
1159
06:40
and he relies依賴 on social社會 security安全
payments支付 to survive生存.
152
388300
2502
需要依靠社會保障金過活。
06:42
When I met會見 him in his apartment公寓,
153
390826
1686
當我探訪他的寓所時,
06:44
he had nothing of value there --
not even food餐飲 in his fridge冰箱.
154
392536
2879
他身無分文,冰箱連食物也沒有。
他長期挨餓。
06:47
He's chronically長期地 hungry飢餓.
155
395439
1165
他家徒四壁,只有一小塊紙板,
06:48
He had nothing of value in his apartment公寓
except a small piece of cardboard紙板
156
396628
3479
上面寫着他孩子的名字。
06:52
on which哪一個 he'd他會 written書面
the names of his children孩子.
157
400131
2238
06:54
He cherished珍愛的 this a lot.
He was happy快樂 to show顯示 it to me.
158
402389
2572
他珍而重之、很樂意的給我看。
他身無分文而無力繳付罰款和規費。
06:56
But he can't pay工資 his fines罰款 and fees費用
because he has nothing to give.
159
404991
3150
07:00
In the last nine years年份,
he's been arrested被捕 13 times,
160
408175
3366
九年來他被逮捕 13 次,
07:03
and jailed獲刑 for a total of 130 days
on that panhandling乞討 case案件.
161
411565
4331
因那次行乞就被監禁共 130 天。
07:08
One of those stretches舒展 lasted歷時 45 days.
162
416659
3048
有一次他更被連續囚禁 45 天。
07:11
Just imagine想像 spending開支 from right now
until直到 sometime某時 in June六月
163
419731
4406
試想像一下由現在直至六月
07:16
in the place地點 that I described描述 to you
a few少數 moments瞬間 ago.
164
424161
2796
待在我剛才形容的地方。
07:20
He told me about all the suicide自殺 attempts嘗試
he's seen看到 in Ferguson's弗格森的 jail監獄;
165
428616
4081
他告訴我佛格遜監獄中
很多人企圖自殺;
07:24
about the time a man found發現
a way to hang himself他自己
166
432721
2273
一名男子去其他囚犯到不了的地方
07:27
out of reach達到 of the other inmates囚犯,
167
435018
1660
試圖吊頸自盡,
07:28
so all they could do
was yell叫喊 and yell叫喊 and yell叫喊,
168
436702
3162
他們可做的只是拼命叫喊,
07:31
trying to get the guards'衛士“ attention注意
169
439888
1740
試圖引起獄卒的注意,
07:33
so they could come down and cut him down.
170
441652
1993
希望獄卒趕過來把他救回來。
07:35
And he told me that it took the guards衛士
over five minutes分鐘 to respond響應,
171
443669
3436
他說獄卒五分鐘後才回應,
07:39
and when they came來了,
the man was unconscious無意識.
172
447129
2268
當他們來到時那人已經不省人事。
07:41
So they called the paramedics醫護人員
and the paramedics醫護人員 went to the cell細胞.
173
449421
3171
獄卒電召醫療輔助人員,
醫護來到時,
07:44
They said, "He'll地獄 be OK,"
174
452616
1332
就說:「他沒事的。」
07:45
so they just left him there on the floor地板.
175
453972
2204
他們就任由那人躺在地上。
07:48
I heard聽說 many許多 stories故事 like this
and they shouldn't不能 have surprised詫異 me,
176
456200
3294
這些故事我聽過多遍,我不感驚訝,
07:51
because suicide自殺 is the single leading領導
cause原因 of death死亡 in our local本地 jails監獄.
177
459518
3552
因為自殺是地區監獄中
囚犯的首要死因。
07:55
This is related有關 to the lack缺乏
of mental心理 health健康 care關心 in our jails監獄.
178
463852
2987
這跟監獄中缺乏精神健康協助有關。
07:58
I met會見 a woman女人, single mother母親 of three,
making製造 seven dollars美元 an hour小時.
179
466863
3920
我見過一名三子之母,
她時薪七美元,
08:02
She relies依賴 on food餐飲 stamps郵票
to feed飼料 herself她自己 and her children孩子.
180
470807
2792
她和孩子都要靠食物配給券過活。
08:06
About a decade ago,
181
474108
1544
大約十年前,
08:07
she got a couple一對 of traffic交通 tickets門票
and a minor次要 theft盜竊 charge收費,
182
475676
3765
她收到幾張交通違規罰單
和被控小型盜竊,
08:11
and she can't afford給予 her fines罰款
and fees費用 on those cases.
183
479465
2768
但無力繳付罰款和訴訟堂費。
08:14
Since以來 then, she's been jailed獲刑
about 10 times on those cases,
184
482726
3500
因此她在往後被監禁約十次,
08:18
but she has schizophrenia精神分裂症
and bipolar雙極 disorder紊亂,
185
486250
2283
然而她患上精神分裂症
和狂躁抑鬱症,
08:20
and she needs需求 medication藥物治療 every一切 day.
186
488557
2151
需要每天服藥。
08:22
She doesn't have access訪問
to those medications藥物治療 in Ferguson's弗格森的 jail監獄,
187
490732
3038
她在佛格遜監獄得不到藥物服用,
因為所有囚犯都得不到藥物服用。
08:25
because no one has access訪問
to their medications藥物治療.
188
493794
2216
她告訴我待在牢房那兩星期間
08:28
She told me about what it was like
to spend two weeks in a cage,
189
496034
4026
08:32
hallucinating幻覺 people and shadows陰影
and hearing聽力 voices聲音,
190
500084
3553
幻覺到身邊有人、影和聲音等等,
08:35
begging乞討 for the medication藥物治療
that would make it all stop,
191
503661
2594
哀求獄方提供藥物以消除幻覺,
08:38
only to be ignored忽視.
192
506279
1370
卻無人理會。
08:40
And this isn't anomalous異常的, either:
193
508370
1846
這卻並非特例:
08:42
thirty三十 percent百分 of women婦女 in our local本地 jails監獄
have serious嚴重 mental心理 health健康 needs需求
194
510240
3525
地區監獄有三成女囚犯
極需要精神健康協助,
08:45
just like hers她的,
195
513789
1156
就像她一樣,
08:46
but only one in six receives收到
any mental心理 health健康 care關心 while in jail監獄.
196
514969
4517
但只有六分之一的人
在獄中得到精神協助。
08:51
And so, I heard聽說 all these stories故事
about this grotesque奇怪的 dungeon地牢
197
519510
3825
佛格遜監獄為欠債人
設置荒唐的地牢,
08:55
that Ferguson弗格森 was operating操作
for its debtors債務人,
198
523359
2198
那些駭人傳聞我全都聽過,
08:57
and when it came來了 time
for me to actually其實 see it
199
525581
2293
但當我有機會到訪佛格遜監獄
08:59
and to go visit訪問 Ferguson's弗格森的 jail監獄,
200
527898
1954
去親眼目睹那些囚牢,
09:01
I'm not sure what I was expecting期待 to see,
201
529876
2040
我不清楚會看到些甚麼,
09:03
but I wasn't expecting期待 this.
202
531940
1954
但我意料不到會見到這情景。
09:06
It's an ordinary普通 government政府 building建造.
203
534495
1839
監獄看來就像普通政府辦公大樓,
09:08
It could be a post崗位 office辦公室 or a school學校.
204
536358
2456
看來像郵局或學校。
09:10
It reminded提醒 me that these illegal非法
extortion敲詐 schemes方案
205
538838
3692
這提醒我一切違法的敲詐勾當
09:14
aren't being存在 run somewhere某處 in the shadows陰影,
206
542554
2088
都不是在暗黑中進行,
09:16
they're being存在 run out in the open打開
by our public上市 officials官員.
207
544666
2716
而是由官員們在光天化日下進行。
09:19
They're a matter of public上市 policy政策.
208
547406
1700
這些勾當攸關公共政策。
09:21
And this reminded提醒 me
that poverty貧窮 jailing監禁 in general一般,
209
549130
2839
這也提醒我,因貧窮而受牢獄——
09:23
even outside the debtors'債務人“ prison監獄 context上下文,
210
551993
2208
即使撇除欠債人牢獄的情況——
09:26
plays播放 a very visible可見 and central中央 role角色
in our justice正義 system系統.
211
554225
2921
在司法制度內的角色也舉足輕重。
09:29
What I have in mind心神 is our policy政策 of bail保釋.
212
557818
2212
我想到的就是保釋制度。
09:32
In our system系統, whether是否
you're detained被拘留 or free自由,
213
560054
2552
在這制度中,被拘留或獲釋放,
09:34
pending有待 trial審訊 is not a matter
of how dangerous危險 you are
214
562630
3130
並非視乎當事人有多大危險性
09:37
or how much of a flight飛行 risk風險 you pose提出.
215
565784
2248
或者有多大機會潛逃,
09:40
It's a matter of whether是否 you can afford給予
to post崗位 your bail保釋 amount.
216
568056
3086
而是視乎當事人能否負擔保釋金。
演員比爾 · 科斯比的保釋金
高達百萬美元,
09:43
So Bill法案 Cosby科斯比, whose誰的 bail保釋
was set at a million百萬 dollars美元,
217
571166
2712
09:45
immediately立即 writes the check,
and doesn't spend a second第二 in a jail監獄 cell細胞.
218
573902
3460
他立即以支票交款就絲毫不用坐牢。
09:49
But Sandra桑德拉 Bland布蘭德, who died死亡 in jail監獄,
219
577386
1732
但死在獄中的桑德拉 · 布蘭德,
09:51
was only there because her family家庭
was unable無法 to come up with 500 dollars美元.
220
579142
3998
她只因家人交不出 500 元就被監禁。
09:55
In fact事實, there are half a million百萬
Sandra桑德拉 BlandsBlands across橫過 the country國家 --
221
583164
3387
其實全國有 50 萬
像布蘭德一樣的人——
09:58
500,000 people who are in jail監獄 right now,
222
586575
2266
現在之所以要待在監獄,
10:00
only because they can't afford給予
their bail保釋 amount.
223
588865
2661
只是因為無力繳納保釋金。
10:03
We're told that our jails監獄
are places地方 for criminals罪犯,
224
591550
3057
常言道,監獄是罪犯的地方,
10:06
but statistically統計學 that's not the case案件:
225
594631
2013
但統計上這並非事實:
10:08
three out of every一切 five people
in jail監獄 right now are there pretrial預審.
226
596668
4301
五分之三的在囚人士是還未審訊的。
10:12
They haven't沒有 been convicted被定罪 of any crime犯罪;
227
600993
2182
他們還沒有被控犯下任何罪行,
10:15
they haven't沒有 pledPLED guilty有罪 to any offense罪行.
228
603199
2511
也沒有認任何罪。
10:18
Right here in San Francisco弗朗西斯科,
229
606351
1344
在三藩市這裡,
10:19
85 percent百分 of the inmates囚犯
in our jail監獄 in San Francisco弗朗西斯科
230
607719
3390
在囚人士中有 85%
還未經審訊而被拘留。
10:23
are pretrial預審 detainees被拘留者.
231
611133
1744
10:24
This means手段 San Francisco弗朗西斯科 is spending開支
something like 80 million百萬 dollars美元
232
612901
3385
這意味三藩市每年花費大約
10:28
every一切 year
233
616310
1170
8,000 萬元
10:29
to fund基金 pretrial預審 detention拘留.
234
617504
1716
囚禁還未經審訊的被拘留人士。
10:33
Many許多 of these people who are in jail監獄
only because they can't post崗位 bail保釋
235
621240
4419
很多人坐牢只因負擔不起保釋金;
10:37
are facing面對 allegations指控 so minor次要
236
625683
2246
針對他們的指控雖然輕微,
10:39
that the amount of time it would take
for them to sit waiting等候 for trial審訊
237
627953
3383
但他們坐牢等待審訊的時間,
10:43
is longer than the sentence句子
they would receive接收 if convicted被定罪,
238
631360
3052
比起定罪後的判監時間還要長,
10:46
which哪一個 means手段 they're guaranteed保證
to get out faster更快
239
634436
2268
所以他們乾脆認罪的話
10:48
if they just plead求情 guilty有罪.
240
636728
1284
反可更早被釋放。
10:50
So now the choice選擇 is:
241
638036
1559
他們面對這樣的抉擇:
10:51
Should I stay here in this horrible可怕 place地點,
242
639619
2873
我應否待在這鬼地方,
10:54
away from my family家庭 and my dependents家屬,
243
642516
2110
在不能和家人孩子一起、
10:56
almost幾乎 guaranteed保證 to lose失去 my job工作,
244
644650
2477
一定會丟了工作的情況下,
10:59
and then fight鬥爭 the charges收費?
245
647151
1621
反駁指控?
11:00
Or should I just plead求情 guilty有罪 to whatever隨你
the prosecutor原告 wants and get out?
246
648796
3569
或是應否任由檢察官定罪,
乾脆認罪早日獲釋?
11:04
And at this point, they're pretrial預審
detainees被拘留者, not criminals罪犯.
247
652389
2935
這時,他們還只是未經審訊的
被拘留人士而非罪犯,
他們一認罪就被稱為罪犯,
11:07
But once一旦 they take that plea懇求 deal合同,
we'll call them criminals罪犯,
248
655348
2892
然而富裕人士不會落得如此下場,
11:10
even though雖然 an affluent富裕的 person
would never have been in this situation情況,
249
658264
3380
因為他們有錢給自己保釋。
11:13
because an affluent富裕的 person
would have simply只是 been bailed跳傘 out.
250
661668
2874
11:16
At this point you might威力 be wondering想知道,
251
664566
2090
大家這時候或會問:
11:18
"This guy's傢伙 in the inspiration靈感 section部分,
what is he doing --
252
666680
2794
「這可是給人以鼓舞的舞臺啊,
這傢伙究竟在講甚麼——
11:21
(Laughter笑聲)
253
669498
1160
(笑聲)
11:22
"This is extremely非常 depressing壓抑.
I want my money back."
254
670682
2806
演講令人沮喪,我要退錢。」
11:25
(Laughter笑聲)
255
673512
1206
(笑聲)
11:26
But in actuality現實,
256
674742
2399
但事實上,
11:29
I find talking about jailing監禁 much less
depressing壓抑 than the alternative替代,
257
677165
4390
我認為牢獄反而比其他課題
沒那麼令人沮喪,
11:33
because I think if we don't talk
about these issues問題
258
681579
2436
因為如果我們不去討論這些課題、
11:36
and collectively change更改
how we think about jailing監禁,
259
684039
2401
使公眾集體改變對牢獄的看法,
11:38
at the end結束 of all of our lives生活,
260
686464
1504
到我們臨終時,
11:39
we'll still have jails監獄 full充分 of poor較差的 people
who don't belong屬於 there.
261
687992
3131
獄中還會滿是不應被囚禁的窮人。
11:43
That really is depressing壓抑 to me.
262
691147
1554
這些情景的確令我沮喪,
11:44
But what's exciting扣人心弦 to me is the thought
that these stories故事 can move移動 us
263
692725
3424
但令我鼓舞的是
這些獄中見聞能打動人心,
11:48
to think about jailing監禁 in different不同 terms條款.
264
696173
2043
使我們從另一角度看牢獄問題。
11:50
Not in sterile無菌 policy政策 terms條款
like "mass incarceration監禁,"
265
698240
3371
不是以「集體囚禁」或者
「監禁非暴力罪犯」
11:53
or "sentencing宣判 of nonviolent非暴力 offenders罪犯,"
266
701635
1986
這些冷漠的術語探討問題,
11:55
but in human人的 terms條款.
267
703645
1166
而是從人性角度探討。
11:56
When we put a human人的 being存在 in a cage
for days or weeks or months個月
268
704835
4585
當我們把一個人困在牢中
數天、數星期、數個月
12:01
or even years年份,
269
709444
1444
甚至數年,
12:02
what are we doing
to that person's人的 mind心神 and body身體?
270
710912
2349
這對他的身心有何影響?
12:05
Under what conditions條件
are we really willing願意 to do that?
271
713285
2758
我們真的要這樣對待一個人嗎?
12:08
And so if starting開始 with a few少數
hundred of us in this room房間,
272
716569
2806
如果在座的數百名觀眾
12:11
we can commit承諾 to thinking思維 about
jailing監禁 in this different不同 light,
273
719399
3044
決心從另一角度思考牢獄問題,
12:14
then we can undo解開 that normalization正常化
I was referring to earlier.
274
722467
3480
就可消弭我早前說的習以為常。
12:17
If I leave離開 you with anything today今天,
I hope希望 it's with the thought
275
725971
3038
若要我說希望各位在
這演講後記住甚麼,
12:21
that if we want anything
to fundamentally從根本上 change更改 --
276
729033
2432
希望大家明白若要作出徹底改變—
12:23
not just to reform改革 our policies政策
on bail保釋 and fines罰款 and fees費用 --
277
731489
3280
不只是改革保釋、罰款和規費制度—
12:26
but also to make sure that whatever隨你
new policies政策 replace更換 those
278
734793
3053
必須確保替代的新制度
12:29
don't punish懲治 the poor較差的 and the marginalized邊緣化
in their own擁有 new way.
279
737870
3051
不會懲罰貧窮和社會邊緣人士。
12:32
If we want that kind of change更改,
280
740945
1632
我們若要改變現狀,
12:34
then this shift轉移 in thinking思維
is required需要 of each of us.
281
742601
2525
我們的思維必須有所轉變。
12:37
Thank you.
282
745150
1184
多謝大家。
12:38
(Applause掌聲)
283
746358
3670
(鼓掌聲)
Translated by Winston Szeto
Reviewed by Wilde Luo

▲Back to top

ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Salil Dudani - Legal activist
Salil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing.

Why you should listen

As a John Gardner Public Service fellow, Salil Dudani worked on civil rights cases challenging debtors' prisons and money bail. These included cases in Ferguson, Missouri, where people who could not pay fines and court fees were routinely jailed; Rutherford County, Tennessee, where a private probation company would extort impoverished probationers with the threat of jail; and San Francisco and Houston, where thousands of people are in jail cells every night because they cannot afford to post bail. Before this work, Salil was a defense investigator at the Public Defender Service in Washington, D.C. He is now a student at Yale Law School.

More profile about the speaker
Salil Dudani | Speaker | TED.com