ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Julian Assange - Whistleblower
Internet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct.

Why you should listen

You could say Australian-born Julian Assange has swapped his long-time interest in network security flaws for the far-more-suspect flaws of even bigger targets: governments and corporations. Since his early 20s, he has been using network technology to prod and probe the vulnerable edges of administrative systems, but though he was a computing hobbyist first (in 1991 he was the target of hacking charges after he accessed the computers of an Australian telecom), he's now taken off his "white hat" and launched a career as one of the world's most visible human-rights activists.

He calls himself "editor in chief." He travels the globe as its spokesperson. Yet Assange's part in WikiLeaks is clearly dicier than that: he's become the face of creature that, simply, many powerful organizations would rather see the world rid of. His Wikipedia entry says he is "constantly on the move," and some speculate that his role in publishing decrypted US military video has put him in personal danger. A controversial figure, pundits debate whether his work is reckless and does more harm than good. Amnesty International recognized him with an International Media Award in 2009.

Assange studied physics and mathematics at the University of Melbourne. He wrote Strobe, the first free and open-source port scanner, and contributed to the book Underground: Tales of Hacking, Madness and Obsession on the Electronic Frontier.

More profile about the speaker
Julian Assange | Speaker | TED.com
TEDGlobal 2010

Julian Assange: Why the world needs WikiLeaks

朱利安‧亞桑傑(Julian Assange):維基解密存在的必要性

Filmed:
2,716,210 views

極具爭議性的網站「維基解密」收集、張貼機密文件與影片。據報導,該網站創辦人朱利安‧亞桑傑被美國政府視為偵訊對象,接受我們TED的Chris Anderson專訪,討論網站運作過程、已達成的目標,成立網站的動機。本訪談包含了一段美軍空襲巴格達平民影片。
- Whistleblower
Internet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:15
Chris克里斯 Anderson安德森: Julian朱利安, welcome歡迎.
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朱利安,歡迎
00:17
It's been reported報導 that WikiLeaks維基解密, your baby寶寶,
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有報導說,你的心血「維基解密」
00:19
has, in the last few少數 years年份
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在過去幾年公佈的
00:21
has released發布 more classified分類 documents文件
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機密文件數量
00:24
than the rest休息 of the world's世界 media媒體 combined結合.
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已經比全球媒體加起來還多
00:26
Can that possibly或者 be true真正?
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這是真的嗎?
00:28
Julian朱利安 Assange阿桑奇: Yeah, can it possibly或者 be true真正?
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是阿,這個問題
00:30
It's a worry擔心 -- isn't it? -- that the rest休息 of the world's世界 media媒體
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令人擔憂,對吧,現在的媒體
00:33
is doing such這樣 a bad job工作
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都不曉得在幹麻
00:35
that a little group of activists活動家
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一群激進份子
00:37
is able能夠 to release發布 more
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公佈的機密文件
00:39
of that type類型 of information信息
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都比全球媒體
00:41
than the rest休息 of the world世界 press combined結合.
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加起來還要多
00:43
CACA: How does it work?
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你們是怎麼運作的?
00:45
How do people release發布 the documents文件?
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你們如何獲取這些機密文件?
00:48
And how do you secure安全 their privacy隱私?
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還有怎麼維護告密者隱私?
00:51
JAJA: So these are -- as far as we can tell --
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就我所知,我們有些
00:53
classical古典 whistleblowers舉報人,
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典型的告密者
00:55
and we have a number of ways方法 for them
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我們有些管道讓他們
00:57
to get information信息 to us.
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把機密文件拿給我們
00:59
So we use this state-of-the-art最先進的 encryption加密
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然後用最先進解密技術
01:01
to bounce彈跳 stuff東東 around the Internet互聯網, to hide隱藏 trails步道,
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利用網路隱藏資料來源
01:03
pass通過 it through通過 legal法律 jurisdictions司法管轄區
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透過有合法管轄權的國家
01:05
like Sweden瑞典 and Belgium比利時
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像瑞典、比利時
01:08
to enact制定 those legal法律 protections保護.
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來確保合法保護性
01:12
We get information信息 in the mail郵件,
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我們用郵件收資料
01:14
the regular定期 postal郵政 mail郵件,
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一般郵遞文件
01:17
encrypted加密 or not,
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不管有沒有加密
01:19
vet獸醫 it like a regular定期 news新聞 organization組織, format格式 it --
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像普通新聞媒體一樣檢審、編排
01:22
which哪一個 is sometimes有時 something that's quite相當 hard to do,
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有時候做起來還蠻困難的
01:25
when you're talking about
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因為我們收到的
01:27
giant巨人 databases數據庫 of information信息 --
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資訊實在太多
01:29
release發布 it to the public上市
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一方面要公開
01:31
and then defend保衛 ourselves我們自己
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一方面又要處理
01:33
against反對 the inevitable必然 legal法律 and political政治 attacks攻擊.
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合法性、政治上的問題
01:36
CACA: So you make an effort功夫 to ensure確保
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所以你們花了一番功夫
01:38
the documents文件 are legitimate合法,
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確保文件的正確性
01:40
but you actually其實
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但你們其實
01:42
almost幾乎 never know who the identity身分 of the source資源 is?
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都不知道告密者身分?
01:45
JAJA: That's right, yeah. Very rarely很少 do we ever know,
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沒錯,幾乎是不知道的
01:49
and if we find out at some stage階段
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如果後來知道了
01:52
then we destroy破壞 that information信息 as soon不久 as possible可能.
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我們會盡快銷毀相關文件
01:55
(Phone電話 ring) God damn該死的 it.
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(鈴聲) 他媽的
01:57
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
02:01
CACA: I think that's the CIA中央情報局 asking what the code is
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可能是CIA打來問
02:03
for a TEDTED membership.
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TED成員代碼
02:05
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
02:08
So let's take [an] example, actually其實.
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舉個例子來說
02:10
This is something
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這是你
02:12
you leaked洩露 a few少數 years年份 ago.
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幾年前公佈的東西
02:14
If we can have this document文件 up ...
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螢幕上可以看到
02:16
So this was a story故事 in Kenya肯尼亞 a few少數 years年份 ago.
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這是幾年前發生在肯亞的事
02:18
Can you tell us what you leaked洩露 and what happened發生?
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你可以說說詳細情形嗎?
02:21
JAJA: So this is the Kroll克羅爾 Report報告.
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這是Kroll報告
02:23
This was a secret秘密 intelligence情報 report報告
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是肯亞政府在2004年
02:26
commissioned委託 by the Kenyan肯尼亞 government政府
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大選後秘密調查的
02:28
after its election選舉 in 2004.
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情資報告
02:31
Prior to 2004, Kenya肯尼亞 was ruled統治
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2004年之前,肯亞是由
02:33
by Daniel丹尼爾 arap·阿拉普 Moi莫伊
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Daniel arap Moi統治
02:35
for about 18 years年份.
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約18年之久
02:37
He was a soft柔軟的 dictator獨裁者 of Kenya肯尼亞.
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他是個軟式獨裁者
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And when Kibaki齊貝吉 got into power功率 --
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後來Kibaki權力漸大
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through通過 a coalition聯盟 of forces軍隊 that were trying
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透過聯合各方的力量
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to clean清潔 up corruption腐敗 in Kenya肯尼亞 --
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打擊肯亞的貪污腐敗
02:46
they commissioned委託 this report報告,
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他們花了兩百萬英鎊
02:48
spent花費 about two million百萬 pounds英鎊
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委託調查這份報告
02:50
on this and an associated相關 report報告.
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以及其他相關報告
02:52
And then the government政府 satSAT on it
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後來政府用這份報告
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and used it for political政治 leverage槓桿作用 on Moi莫伊,
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拿來打壓Moi
02:57
who was the richest首富 man --
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Moi是肯亞
02:59
still is the richest首富 man -- in Kenya肯尼亞.
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最有錢的人
03:02
It's the Holy Grail聖杯 of Kenyan肯尼亞 journalism新聞學.
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是肯亞新聞界的最想追蹤的目標
03:05
So I went there in 2007,
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所以我2007年到那,
03:08
and we managed管理 to get hold保持 of this
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成功的在大選前
03:10
just prior to the election選舉 --
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獲取這份資料
03:12
the national國民 election選舉, December十二月 28.
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當年大選是12月28日
03:17
When we released發布 that report報告,
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我們後來釋出這報告
03:20
we did so three days after the new president主席, Kibaki齊貝吉,
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是在新總統Kibaki上任三天後
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had decided決定 to pal朋友 up with
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竟然決定和
03:25
the man that he was going to clean清潔 out,
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他的前政治敵手
03:27
Daniel丹尼爾 arap·阿拉普 Moi莫伊,
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Daniel arap Moi搭檔
03:29
so this report報告 then
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結果這份報告
03:32
became成為 a dead albatross信天翁
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變成他事業上的負擔
03:34
around President主席 Kibaki's齊貝吉 neck頸部.
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害慘了Kibaki總統
03:38
CACA: And -- I mean, to cut a long story故事 short --
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所以長話短說
03:41
word of the report報告 leaked洩露 into Kenya肯尼亞,
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這份秘密情報
03:44
not from the official官方 media媒體, but indirectly間接,
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並非由正式媒體報導
03:47
and in your opinion意見, it actually其實 shifted the election選舉.
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你認為,這因此改變大選結果
03:50
JAJA: Yeah. So this became成為 front面前 page of the Guardian監護人
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沒錯,還登上衛報頭條
03:53
and was then printed印刷的 in all the surrounding周圍 countries國家 of Kenya肯尼亞,
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後來肯亞附近的國家
03:56
in Tanzanian坦桑尼亞 and South African非洲人 press.
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坦桑尼亞、南非也有報導
03:59
And so it came來了 in from the outside.
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之後傳到肯亞
04:01
And that, after a couple一對 of days,
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之後幾天
04:03
made製作 the Kenyan肯尼亞 press feel safe安全 to talk about it.
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肯亞媒體認為可以討論了
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And it ran for 20 nights straight直行 on Kenyan肯尼亞 TV電視,
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他們電視台連播了20天
04:08
shifted the vote投票 by 10 percent百分,
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根據肯亞情報分析
04:11
according根據 to a Kenyan肯尼亞 intelligence情報 report報告,
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我們因此影響了一成選票
04:13
which哪一個 changed the result結果 of the election選舉.
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後來改變了選舉結果
04:15
CACA: Wow, so your leak洩漏
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所以你的秘密情報
04:17
really substantially基本上 changed the world世界?
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確實的改變了世界?
04:19
JAJA: Yep是的.
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沒錯
04:21
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
04:25
CACA: Here's這裡的 -- We're going to just show顯示
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我們現在來看
04:27
a short clip from this
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一段影片
04:30
Baghdad巴格達 airstrike空襲 video視頻.
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巴格達空襲影片
04:32
The video視頻 itself本身 is longer,
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影片本來較長
04:34
but here's這裡的 a short clip.
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我們只播一小段
04:36
This is -- this is intense激烈 material材料, I should warn警告 you.
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警告大家這段影片很
04:39
Radio無線電: ... just fuckin'他媽的', once一旦 you get on 'em'時間 just open打開 'em'時間 up.
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無線電:看到目標後就打爆他們!
04:42
I see your element元件, uh, got about four Humvees悍馬車, uh, out along沿 ...
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看到你們分隊了,四台悍馬
04:46
You're clear明確. All right. Firing射擊.
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看到目標,開火
04:49
Let me know when you've got them. Let's shoot射擊.
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看到目標後回報,開火!
04:52
Light 'em'時間 all up.
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打爆他們!
04:54
C'mon來吧, fire!
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開火!
04:56
(Machine gun fire)
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(槍聲)
04:59
Keep shoot射擊 'n'N. Keep shoot射擊 'n'N.
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繼續、繼續
05:02
(Machine gun fire)
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(槍聲)
05:05
Keep shoot射擊 'n'N.
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繼續開火
05:08
Hotel旅館 ... Bushmaster毒蛇 Two-Six雙六, Bushmaster毒蛇 Two-Six雙六,
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(代號)
05:10
we need to move移動, time now!
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快點移動
05:12
All right, we just engaged訂婚 all eight individuals個人.
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剛剛解決了八個人
05:15
Yeah, we see two birds鳥類 [helicopters直升機], and we're still firing射擊.
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我們還看到兩個,開火中
05:18
Roger羅傑. I got 'em'時間.
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收到。交給我。
05:20
Two-Six雙六, this is Two-Six雙六, we're mobile移動.
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(代號)
05:22
Oops哎呀, I'm sorry. What was going on?
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抱歉,剛剛怎麼了?
05:24
God damn該死的 it, Kyle凱爾. All right, hahaha哈哈哈. I hit擊中 'em'時間.
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媽的,Kyle,好了,哈哈,我射中了
05:29
CACA: So, what was the impact碰撞 of that?
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這影片的衝擊是什麼?
05:32
JAJA: The impact碰撞 on the people who worked工作 on it
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負責這起事件的人
05:35
was severe嚴重.
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後果很嚴重
05:37
We ended結束 up sending發出 two people to Baghdad巴格達
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我們後來派了兩個人到巴格達
05:39
to further進一步 research研究 that story故事.
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蒐集進一步消息
05:41
So this is just the first of three attacks攻擊
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這段影片只是三場攻擊的
05:44
that occurred發生 in that scene現場.
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第一場而已
05:46
CACA: So, I mean, 11 people died死亡 in that attack攻擊, right,
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這次攻擊共有11人死亡
05:48
including包含 two Reuters路透社 employees僱員?
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包含兩名路透社員工,對嗎?
05:50
JAJA: Yeah. Two Reuters路透社 employees僱員,
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對,兩名路透社員工身亡
05:52
two young年輕 children孩子 were wounded負傷.
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兩個小孩受傷
05:55
There were between之間 18 and 26 people killed殺害 all together一起.
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總共18到26人死亡
05:58
CACA: And releasing釋放 this caused造成
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公開這段影片
06:00
widespread廣泛 outrage暴行.
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引起一片譁然
06:02
What was the key element元件 of this
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你覺得造成如此激烈反應
06:04
that actually其實 caused造成 the outrage暴行, do you think?
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的關鍵是什麼?
06:07
JAJA: I don't know. I guess猜測 people can see
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我猜是因為人們
06:09
the gross disparity差距 in force.
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看到那種武力的差距
06:12
You have guys walking步行 in a relaxed輕鬆 way down the street,
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有人悠閒的在街上走
06:14
and then an Apache阿帕奇 helicopter直升機 sitting坐在 up at one kilometer公里
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然後一架阿帕契直升機就空襲
06:17
firing射擊 30-millimeter-毫米 cannon大砲 shells砲彈
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30釐米的子彈
06:19
on everyone大家 --
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就這樣狂掃地面上所有人
06:21
looking for any excuse藉口 to do so --
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他們找任何理由開火
06:24
and killing謀殺 people rescuing營救 the wounded負傷.
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連後來去救傷者的人都不放過。
06:26
And there was two journalists記者 involved參與 that clearly明確地 weren't insurgents叛亂分子
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裡頭有兩名記者,明顯的不是民兵,
06:29
because that's their full-time全職 job工作.
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記者是24小時的工作。
06:33
CACA: I mean, there's been this U.S. intelligence情報 analyst分析人士,
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美國陸軍情報分析員,
06:36
Bradley布拉德利 Manning曼寧, arrested被捕,
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Bradley Manning被捕。
06:38
and it's alleged所謂的 that he confessed供認不諱 in a chat room房間
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據說他已經承認,
06:41
to have leaked洩露 this video視頻 to you,
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把影片洩漏給你們,
06:44
along沿 with 280,000
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以及其他28萬筆
06:46
classified分類 U.S. embassy大使館 cables電纜.
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美國機密外交電文。
06:48
I mean, did he?
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是真的嗎?
06:51
JAJA: We have denied否認 receiving接收 those cables電纜.
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我們已經否認收到那些電文。
06:53
He has been charged帶電,
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他在五天前,
06:55
about five days ago,
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已經被起訴,
06:57
with obtaining獲得 150,000 cables電纜
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理由是獲取15萬筆電文
07:00
and releasing釋放 50.
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和外洩50筆。
07:02
Now, we had released發布,
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我們年初
07:05
early in the year,
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公佈了
07:07
a cable電纜 from the Reykjavik雷克雅未克 U.S. embassy大使館,
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雷克雅未克(冰島)美國大使館電文。
07:11
but this is not necessarily一定 connected連接的.
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不過兩者並無關聯。
07:13
I mean, I was a known已知 visitor遊客 of that embassy大使館.
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因為我自己就是大使館的常客。
07:15
CACA: I mean, if you did receive接收 thousands數千
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那如果你有收到那幾萬筆的
07:17
of U.S. embassy大使館 diplomatic外交 cables電纜 ...
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機密外交電文...
07:20
JAJA: We would have released發布 them. (CACA: You would?)
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- 我們會公佈  - 你會?
07:22
JAJA: Yeah. (CACA: Because?)
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- 會的  - 因為?
07:25
JAJA: Well, because these sort分類 of things
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因為這些文件
07:27
reveal揭示 what the true真正 state
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真實呈現
07:30
of, say,
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那些
07:32
Arab阿拉伯 governments政府 are like,
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阿拉伯政府的立場
07:34
the true真正 human-rights人權 abuses濫用 in those governments政府.
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以及政府剝奪人權的證據。
07:37
If you look at declassified解密 cables電纜,
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這些機密電文,
07:39
that's the sort分類 of material材料 that's there.
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都寫得清清楚楚。
07:41
CACA: So let's talk a little more broadly寬廣地 about this.
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我們廣泛一點談好了。
07:43
I mean, in general一般, what's your philosophy哲學?
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你的個人哲學是什麼?
07:45
Why is it right
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為什麼
07:47
to encourage鼓勵 leaking洩漏 of secret秘密 information信息?
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公開這些機密文件是正確的事?
07:51
JAJA: Well, there's a question as to what sort分類 of information信息 is important重要 in the world世界,
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這問題涉及到,哪些情報對於社會來說是重要的,
07:54
what sort分類 of information信息
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哪些情報
07:56
can achieve實現 reform改革.
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可以改變社會。
07:58
And there's a lot of information信息.
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這種情報多的很。
08:00
So information信息 that organizations組織
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許多公司花大把銀子
08:02
are spending開支 economic經濟 effort功夫 into concealing隱瞞,
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想隱藏的機密資料,
08:05
that's a really good signal信號
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就是我們鎖定的方向。
08:07
that when the information信息 gets得到 out,
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當那些資料公開,
08:09
there's a hope希望 of it doing some good --
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我們相信能有正面影響。
08:11
because the organizations組織 that know it best最好,
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因為這些公司不可告人的資料,
08:13
that know it from the inside out,
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他們內部最清楚,
08:15
are spending開支 work to conceal隱藏 it.
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也費心的想阻止資料外洩。
08:18
And that's what we've我們已經 found發現 in practice實踐,
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這是我們實際的觀察,
08:20
and that's what the history歷史 of journalism新聞學 is.
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也是新聞學的起源。
08:23
CACA: But are there risks風險 with that,
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但不論是個人,
08:26
either to the individuals個人 concerned關心
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或是社會大眾來講,
08:29
or indeed確實 to society社會 at large,
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洩漏這些資料都有風險,
08:31
where leaking洩漏 can actually其實 have
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洩密很可能導致
08:33
an unintended意外 consequence後果?
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意想不到的後果?
08:35
JAJA: Not that we have seen看到 with anything we have released發布.
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我們所公佈的資料還沒有發生過這種事。
08:37
I mean, we have a harm危害 immunization免疫接種 policy政策.
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我們有傷害防疫政策,
08:39
We have a way of dealing交易 with information信息
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處理比較私密一點的
08:41
that has sort分類 of personal個人 --
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個人資料上,
08:43
personally親自 identifying識別 information信息 in it.
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以及會透露個人身分的文件。
08:46
But there are legitimate合法 secrets秘密 --
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但有些合法的秘密,
08:49
you know, your records記錄 with your doctor醫生;
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像是醫療紀錄
08:52
that's a legitimate合法 secret秘密 --
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我們並不會公開。
08:54
but we deal合同 with whistleblowers舉報人 that are coming未來 forward前鋒
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我們所接觸的告密者
08:56
that are really sort分類 of well-motivated良好的動機.
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動機都是善意的。
08:59
CACA: So they are well-motivated良好的動機.
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善意的動機。
09:01
And what would you say to, for example,
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那,假如說
09:03
the, you know, the parent of someone有人
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有個家長
09:06
whose誰的 son兒子 is out serving服務 the U.S. military軍事,
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他的兒子正在美軍服役
09:09
and he says, "You know what,
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他會說:
09:11
you've put up something that someone有人 had an incentive激勵 to put out.
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你不應該洩漏這種機密才對。
09:13
It shows節目 a U.S. soldier士兵 laughing
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影片中美軍面對
09:15
at people dying垂死.
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死者大笑。
09:17
That gives the impression印象, has given特定 the impression印象,
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這樣全世界成千上萬人
09:19
to millions百萬 of people around the world世界
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當然會自然而然的認為
09:21
that U.S. soldiers士兵 are inhuman不人道 people.
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美軍都很不人道。
09:23
Actually其實, they're not. My son兒子 isn't. How dare you?"
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但我兒子才不是這樣,你太過分了
09:25
What would you say to that?
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你的回應是什麼?
09:27
JAJA: Yeah, we do get a lot of that.
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我們的確收到很多這樣的回應。
09:29
But remember記得, the people in Baghdad巴格達,
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請記得,巴格達的平民、
09:31
the people in Iraq伊拉克, the people in Afghanistan阿富汗 --
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伊拉克的平民、阿富汗的平民,
09:34
they don't need to see the video視頻;
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他們並不用看影片,
09:36
they see it every一切 day.
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這在他們生活每天真實上演
09:38
So it's not going to change更改 their opinion意見. It's not going to change更改 their perception知覺.
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影片並不會改變他們的意見或看法。
09:41
That's what they see every一切 day.
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因為他們每天都看得到。
09:43
It will change更改 the perception知覺 and opinion意見
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但那些為這場戰爭買單的人
09:46
of the people who are paying付款 for it all,
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看法會有所改變。
09:48
and that's our hope希望.
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這是我們的希望。
09:51
CACA: So you found發現 a way to shine閃耀 light
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所以你找到方法
09:54
into what you see
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以你所看到的
09:57
as these sort分類 of dark黑暗 secrets秘密 in companies公司 and in government政府.
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來照亮、點亮公司、政府的黑暗面。
10:01
Light is good.
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光明是好的。
10:03
But do you see any irony諷刺 in the fact事實 that,
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但你不覺得為了光明
10:05
in order訂購 for you to shine閃耀 that light,
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你必須用這種
10:07
you have to, yourself你自己,
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極度小心的方式
10:09
create創建 secrecy保密 around your sources來源?
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非常的諷刺嗎?
10:12
JAJA: Not really. I mean, we don't have
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也還好,我們還沒遇到
10:15
any WikiLeaks維基解密 dissidents持不同政見者 yet然而.
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強烈的「維基解密」反對者。
10:19
We don't have sources來源 who are dissidents持不同政見者 on other sources來源.
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也沒有告密者反對我們公佈的其他來源。
10:23
Should they come forward前鋒, that would be a tricky狡猾 situation情況 for us,
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這種事如果發生,應該會很難處理。
10:26
but we're presumably想必 acting演戲 in such這樣 a way
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我們還是照原定的
10:29
that people feel
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讓這些人
10:31
morally道德 compelled被迫
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受到道德驅使
10:33
to continue繼續 our mission任務, not to screw it up.
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繼續他們的任務,而不是放棄。
10:37
CACA: I'd actually其實 be interested有興趣, just based基於 on what we've我們已經 heard聽說 so far --
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就我們剛剛看到的、討論到的,
10:40
I'm curious好奇 as to the opinion意見 in the TEDTED audience聽眾.
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我想問問TED觀眾
10:45
You know, there might威力 be a couple一對 of views意見
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對於維基揭密或Julian
10:47
of WikiLeaks維基解密 and of Julian朱利安.
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有什麼看法。
10:49
You know, hero英雄 -- people's人們 hero英雄 --
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一種是英雄,人民的英雄,
10:52
bringing使 this important重要 light.
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帶給世界光明。
10:55
Dangerous危險 troublemaker麻煩製造者.
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一種是危險的麻煩製造者
10:58
Who's誰是 got the hero英雄 view視圖?
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覺得是英雄的請舉手。
11:02
Who's誰是 got the dangerous危險 troublemaker麻煩製造者 view視圖?
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覺得是麻煩製造者的請舉手。
11:06
JAJA: Oh, come on. There must必須 be some.
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騙人的吧怎麼會沒有。
11:09
CACA: It's a soft柔軟的 crowd人群, Julian朱利安, a soft柔軟的 crowd人群.
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大家都很不好意思啦,朱利安。
11:11
We have to try better. Let's show顯示 them another另一個 example.
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我們再來看另一個例子好了。
11:13
Now here's這裡的 something that you haven't沒有 yet然而 leaked洩露,
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這份文件你還沒公佈,
11:16
but I think for TEDTED you are.
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今天特別留給TED的。
11:19
I mean it's an intriguing奇妙 story故事 that's just happened發生, right?
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這是最近發生的對吧?
11:21
What is this?
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這是什麼?
11:23
JAJA: So this is a sample樣品 of what we do
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給大家看看我們每天
11:25
sort分類 of every一切 day.
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都做些什麼。
11:27
So late晚了 last year -- in November十一月 last year --
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去年11月,
11:30
there was a series系列 of well blowouts井噴
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在阿爾巴尼亞有一系列
11:32
in Albania阿爾巴尼亞,
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油管爆炸,
11:34
like the well blowout吹熄 in the Gulf海灣 of Mexico墨西哥,
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類似墨西哥灣漏油事件,
11:37
but not quite相當 as big.
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不過沒那麼嚴重。
11:39
And we got a report報告 --
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我們接到一份資料,
11:42
a sort分類 of engineering工程 analysis分析 into what happened發生 --
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類似工程分析。
11:45
saying that, in fact事實, security安全 guards衛士
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內容是說,那些爆炸
11:48
from some rival對手, various各個 competing競爭 oil firms公司
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是幾家相互競爭的石油公司
11:51
had, in fact事實, parked trucks卡車 there and blown them up.
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請保全幹的,
11:55
And part部分 of the Albanian阿爾巴尼亞人 government政府 was in this, etc等等., etc等等.
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還說阿爾巴尼亞政府有參予,
11:59
And the engineering工程 report報告
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除此之外,
12:00
had nothing on the top最佳 of it,
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那份資料沒有其他東西。
12:02
so it was an extremely非常 difficult document文件 for us.
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讓我們處理起來很困難。
12:04
We couldn't不能 verify校驗 it because we didn't know
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因為也不知道誰寫的、詳細情形,
12:06
who wrote it and knew知道 what it was about.
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無法證實可靠性。
12:08
So we were kind of skeptical懷疑的 that maybe it was
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所以我們猜測,
12:10
a competing競爭 oil firm公司 just sort分類 of playing播放 the issue問題 up.
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應該是某家石油公司炒作這話題。
12:12
So under that basis基礎, we put it out and said,
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因此就沒有繼續追查。
12:14
"Look, we're skeptical懷疑的 about this thing.
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對這件事抱持懷疑態度,
12:16
We don't know, but what can we do?
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但又不知道該如何處理,
12:18
The material材料 looks容貌 good, it feels感覺 right,
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資料內容很不錯,感覺對了,
12:20
but we just can't verify校驗 it."
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但無法證實。
12:22
And we then got a letter
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後來我們接到一封信,
12:25
just this week
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就這禮拜,
12:28
from the company公司 who wrote it,
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有家公司來信
12:31
wanting希望 to track跟踪 down the source資源 --
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希望知道告密者是誰。
12:34
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
12:38
saying, "Hey, we want to track跟踪 down the source資源."
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信上說:「我們想揪出告密者」
12:41
And we were like, "Oh, tell us more.
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我們就回:「請講清楚一點」
12:43
What document文件 is it, precisely恰恰, you're talking about?
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「你說的是哪份文件?」
12:46
Can you show顯示 that you had legal法律 authority權威 over that document文件?
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「你們有該文件的合法所有權嗎?」
12:49
Is it really yours你的?"
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「真的是你們公司?」
12:51
So they sent發送 us this screen屏幕 shot射擊
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他們就寄來一張螢幕截圖,
12:54
with the author作者
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文件作者名字
12:56
in the Microsoft微軟 Word IDID.
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就在Word ID上。
13:01
Yeah.
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笨吧
13:03
(Applause掌聲)
307
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(掌聲)
13:08
That's happened發生 quite相當 a lot though雖然.
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這種事蠻常發生的。
13:10
This is like one of our methods方法
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也是我們核對資料真實性
13:12
of identifying識別, of verifying驗證, what a material材料 is,
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的其中一種方法,
13:15
is to try and get these guys to write letters.
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就是與他們通信,獲取進一步資料。
13:17
CACA: Yeah. Have you had information信息
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那你們有英國石油公司BP
13:20
from inside BPBP?
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的資料嗎?
13:22
JAJA: Yeah, we have a lot, but I mean, at the moment時刻,
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我們有很多,但目前
13:25
we are undergoing經歷 a sort分類 of serious嚴重 fundraising籌款 and engineering工程 effort功夫.
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我們正積極募款和系統更新。
13:28
So our publication出版物 rate
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所以我們過去幾個月
13:30
over the past過去 few少數 months個月
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公開的東西
13:32
has been sort分類 of minimized最小化
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盡可能減少了,
13:34
while we're re-engineering重新設計 our back systems系統
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為了廣大的公眾利益,
13:37
for the phenomenal非凡的 public上市 interest利益 that we have.
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我們正重新設計後台系統。
13:40
That's a problem問題.
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這是目前的問題。
13:42
I mean, like any sort分類 of growing生長 startup啟動 organization組織,
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就像任何剛起步的公司,
13:45
we are sort分類 of overwhelmed不堪重負
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我們被這種成長速度
13:47
by our growth發展,
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嚇到了。
13:49
and that means手段 we're getting得到 enormous巨大 quantity數量
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我們收到越來越多告密者提供的
13:51
of whistleblower舉報人 disclosures披露
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機密文件,
13:53
of a very high caliber口徑
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需要小心處理,
13:55
but don't have enough足夠 people to actually其實
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但我們沒有足夠人力
13:57
process處理 and vet獸醫 this information信息.
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來審查這些文件。
13:59
CACA: So that's the key bottleneck瓶頸,
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所以你們的瓶頸就是
14:01
basically基本上 journalistic新聞 volunteers志願者
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員工都是志願的記者,
14:03
and/or the funding資金 of journalistic新聞 salaries工資?
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資金就是他們的薪水?
14:06
JAJA: Yep是的. Yeah, and trusted信任 people.
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對,還有我們可以信任的人。
14:08
I mean, we're an organization組織
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我們這種組織,
14:10
that is hard to grow增長 very quickly很快
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無法快速成長,
14:12
because of the sort分類 of material材料 we deal合同 with,
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因為工作內容太敏感。
14:14
so we have to restructure重組
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我們必須重新組織
14:17
in order訂購 to have people
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要有人負責
14:19
who will deal合同 with the highest最高 national國民 security安全 stuff東東,
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高度國家機密的資料,
14:22
and then lower降低 security安全 cases.
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還有較低度的資料,
14:24
CACA: So help us understand理解 a bit about you personally親自
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我想請問,你個人
14:27
and how you came來了 to do this.
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是為什麼決定做這行。
14:29
And I think I read that as a kid孩子
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我之前有讀到
14:31
you went to 37 different不同 schools學校.
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你小時候唸過37所學校
14:34
Can that be right?
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是真的嗎?
14:36
JAJA: Well, my parents父母 were in the movie電影 business商業
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我爸媽以前在電影業工作,
14:39
and then on the run from a cult禮拜,
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後來被邪教徒追捕,
14:41
so the combination組合 between之間 the two ...
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所以可想而知...
14:43
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
14:47
CACA: I mean, a psychologist心理學家 might威力 say
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心理學家可能說
14:49
that's a recipe食譜 for breeding配種 paranoia偏執.
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這樣的小孩長大會變偏執狂
14:52
JAJA: What, the movie電影 business商業?
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電影業環境下長大的小孩嗎?
14:54
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
14:57
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
15:00
CACA: And you were also -- I mean,
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你年輕的時候
15:02
you were also a hacker黑客 at an early age年齡
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當過駭客對吧?
15:04
and ran into the authorities當局 early on.
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後來跟政府槓上。
15:07
JAJA: Well, I was a journalist記者.
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我以前是記者,
15:10
You know, I was a very young年輕 journalist記者 activist活動家 at an early age年齡.
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很年輕的時候就是激進的記者了。
15:12
I wrote a magazine雜誌,
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替雜誌寫文章。
15:14
was prosecuted起訴 for it when I was a teenager青少年.
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青少年時期被起訴,
15:17
So you have to be careful小心 with hacker黑客.
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講到駭客要小心,
15:19
I mean there's like -- there's a method方法
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這項技能,
15:21
that can be deployed部署 for various各個 things.
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可以用來成就很多事情。
15:23
Unfortunately不幸, at the moment時刻,
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不幸的是,現在
15:25
it's mostly大多 deployed部署 by the Russian俄語 mafia黑手黨
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駭客現在都幫俄羅斯黑幫
15:27
in order訂購 to steal your grandmother's祖母 bank銀行 accounts賬戶.
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騙老人家銀行戶頭。
15:29
So this phrase短語 is not,
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駭客現在
15:32
not as nice不錯 as it used to be.
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不像以前這麼好聽了。
15:34
CACA: Yeah, well, I certainly當然 don't think
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我想你應該
15:36
you're stealing偷竊行為 anyone's任何人的 grandmother's祖母 bank銀行 account帳戶,
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沒有詐騙老人家。
15:39
but what about
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那麼你的
15:41
your core核心 values?
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核心價值是什麼?
15:43
Can you give us a sense of what they are
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能否跟大家談談
15:46
and maybe some incident事件 in your life
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你人生過程中發生什麼事,
15:48
that helped幫助 determine確定 them?
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讓你有所堅持
15:53
JAJA: I'm not sure about the incident事件.
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我不確定有什麼事件
15:55
But the core核心 values:
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核心價值是:
15:58
well, capable, generous慷慨 men男人
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有能力、有雅量的人
16:01
do not create創建 victims受害者;
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不會創造受害者
16:03
they nurture培育 victims受害者.
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他們照顧受害者
16:05
And that's something from my father父親
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這是我父親
16:07
and something from other capable, generous慷慨 men男人
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以及我遇到的其他有能力、有雅量的人
16:10
that have been in my life.
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的寫照
16:13
CACA: Capable, generous慷慨 men男人 do not create創建 victims受害者;
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有能力、有雅量的人,不會創造受害者
16:15
they nurture培育 victims受害者?
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他們照顧受害者
16:17
JAJA: Yeah. And you know,
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沒錯,而且
16:19
I'm a combative好鬥 person,
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我是個好戰的人
16:23
so I'm not actually其實 so big on the nurture培育,
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我其實不太會照顧別人
16:25
but some way --
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用另一角度看
16:28
there is another另一個 way of nurturing培育 victims受害者,
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我認為有其他方法能照顧受害者
16:31
which哪一個 is to police警察 perpetrators肇事者
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那就是監督罪犯
16:34
of crime犯罪.
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和罪行本身
16:36
And so that is something
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這種想法
16:38
that has been in my character字符
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後來變成我的
16:40
for a long time.
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理念
16:42
CACA: So just tell us, very quickly很快 in the last minute分鐘, the story故事:
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最後,能否簡單的說一下
16:45
what happened發生 in Iceland冰島?
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在冰島發生了什麼事?
16:48
You basically基本上 published發表 something there,
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好像是某家銀行陷入財務危機
16:51
ran into trouble麻煩 with a bank銀行,
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卻向法院申請
16:54
then the news新聞 service服務 there
401
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禁止當地新聞媒體
16:56
was injunctedinjuncted from running賽跑 the story故事.
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報導相關新聞
16:59
Instead代替, they publicized公示 your side.
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但你替他們公佈了
17:01
That made製作 you very high-profile高調 in Iceland冰島. What happened發生 next下一個?
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因此在冰島變的很有名,接下來發生什麼事?
17:04
JAJA: Yeah, this is a great case案件, you know.
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這件事真的很有趣
17:06
Iceland冰島 went through通過 this financial金融 crisis危機.
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冰島經歷財務危機
17:08
It was the hardest最難 hit擊中 of any country國家 in the world世界.
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對任一國家來說都是重擊
17:10
Its banking銀行業 sector扇形 was 10 times the GDPGDP
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冰島銀行業的總資產,竟高達國內生產毛額
17:12
of the rest休息 of the economy經濟.
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將近10倍之多
17:14
Anyway無論如何, so we release發布 this report報告
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我們在去年七月
17:17
in July七月 last year.
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公佈這份報告
17:20
And the national國民 TV電視 station was injunctedinjuncted
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公佈過後五分鐘
17:22
five minutes分鐘 before it went on air空氣,
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當地電視台被禁止報導
17:24
like out of a movie電影: injunction禁令 landed登陸 on the news新聞 desk,
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像電影情節一樣,禁播令下來
17:26
and the news新聞 reader讀者 was like,
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電視台整個傻眼
17:28
"This has never happened發生 before. What do we do?"
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沒發生過這種事耶,該怎麼辦
17:30
Well, we just show顯示 the website網站 instead代替,
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後來他們直接播放我們網站畫面
17:32
for all that time, as a filler填料,
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因為臨時找不到其他新聞
17:35
and we became成為 very famous著名 in Iceland冰島,
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我們在冰島名氣很響亮
17:37
went to Iceland冰島 and spoke about this issue問題.
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後來到冰島說明這件事
17:40
And there was a feeling感覺 in the community社區
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當時大眾有共識
17:42
that that should never happen發生 again,
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認為這種事不應該再發生
17:44
and as a result結果,
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後來
17:46
working加工 with Icelandic冰島的 politicians政治家
424
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我們和冰島的政治家
17:48
and some other international國際 legal法律 experts專家,
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和其他國際法律專家
17:50
we put together一起 a new sort分類 of
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合作
17:52
package of legislation立法 for Iceland冰島
427
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希望透過立法
17:55
to sort分類 of become成為 an offshore海上 haven避風港
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讓冰島成為媒體天堂
17:58
for the free自由 press,
429
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可以自由發聲
18:01
with the strongest最強 journalistic新聞 protections保護 in the world世界,
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以及全球最完善的新聞保護法
18:04
with a new Nobel諾貝爾 Prize
431
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還有表達自由的
18:06
for freedom自由 of speech言語.
432
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諾貝爾獎
18:08
Iceland's冰島 a Nordic北歐 country國家,
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冰島是個北歐國家
18:10
so, like Norway挪威, it's able能夠 to tap龍頭 into the system系統.
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所以立法不難
18:13
And just a month ago,
435
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約一個月前
18:15
this was passed通過 by the Icelandic冰島的 parliament議會 unanimously一致.
436
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已經在冰島議會一致通過了
18:18
CACA: Wow.
437
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18:20
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
18:26
Last question, Julian朱利安.
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最後一個問題,Julian
18:28
When you think of the future未來 then,
440
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講到未來
18:30
do you think it's more likely容易 to be
441
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你認為發展會是如何?
18:32
Big Brother哥哥 exerting發揮 more control控制,
442
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是老大哥(小說《1984》的獨裁者角色)
18:34
more secrecy保密,
443
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會有更多控制、更多秘密
18:36
or us watching觀看
444
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或是人民
18:38
Big Brother哥哥,
445
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能監督老大哥
18:40
or it's just all to be played發揮 for either way?
446
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或是兩邊都很有可能?
18:43
JAJA: I'm not sure which哪一個 way it's going to go.
447
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我不知道事情會變的如何
18:45
I mean, there's enormous巨大 pressures壓力
448
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推動言論自由的立法
18:47
to harmonize freedom自由 of speech言語 legislation立法
449
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和全球透明立法的實現
18:50
and transparency透明度 legislation立法 around the world世界 --
450
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我們面對極大的壓力
18:53
within the E.U.,
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歐盟各國之間
18:55
between之間 China中國 and the United聯合的 States狀態.
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還有中美之間
18:57
Which哪一個 way is it going to go? It's hard to see.
453
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事情會如何發展很難說
19:00
That's why it's a very interesting有趣 time to be in --
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所以現在這年代很有趣
19:02
because with just a little bit of effort功夫,
455
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因為只要努力一點
19:04
we can shift轉移 it one way or the other.
456
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結果會很不一樣
19:07
CACA: Well, it looks容貌 like I'm reflecting反映 the audience's觀眾的 opinion意見
457
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最後我代表所有TED觀眾
19:10
to say, Julian朱利安, be careful小心,
458
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Julian,請小心
19:12
and all power功率 to you.
459
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祝你順利
19:14
JAJA: Thank you, Chris克里斯. (CACA: Thank you.)
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謝謝
19:16
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
Translated by Adrienne Lin
Reviewed by Lin Su-Wei()

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Julian Assange - Whistleblower
Internet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct.

Why you should listen

You could say Australian-born Julian Assange has swapped his long-time interest in network security flaws for the far-more-suspect flaws of even bigger targets: governments and corporations. Since his early 20s, he has been using network technology to prod and probe the vulnerable edges of administrative systems, but though he was a computing hobbyist first (in 1991 he was the target of hacking charges after he accessed the computers of an Australian telecom), he's now taken off his "white hat" and launched a career as one of the world's most visible human-rights activists.

He calls himself "editor in chief." He travels the globe as its spokesperson. Yet Assange's part in WikiLeaks is clearly dicier than that: he's become the face of creature that, simply, many powerful organizations would rather see the world rid of. His Wikipedia entry says he is "constantly on the move," and some speculate that his role in publishing decrypted US military video has put him in personal danger. A controversial figure, pundits debate whether his work is reckless and does more harm than good. Amnesty International recognized him with an International Media Award in 2009.

Assange studied physics and mathematics at the University of Melbourne. He wrote Strobe, the first free and open-source port scanner, and contributed to the book Underground: Tales of Hacking, Madness and Obsession on the Electronic Frontier.

More profile about the speaker
Julian Assange | Speaker | TED.com