ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Andrew Marantz - Writer
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world.

Why you should listen

Since 2016, Andrew Marantz has been at work on a book about the perils of virality, the myth of linear progress and the American far right. To report the book, he spent several years embedded with some of the conspiracists, white supremacists and nihilist trolls who have become experts at using social media to advance their corrosive agendas. He also watched as some of social media's earliest and most influential founders started to reckon with the forces they'd unleashed. The book, forthcoming in October from Viking Press, is called Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hijacking of the American Conversation

Marantz became a staff writer at the New Yorker in 2017. Prior to that, he worked on the magazine's editorial staff, splitting his time between writing stories (about such topics as hip-hop purism and the Truman Show delusion) and editing stories (about Las Vegas night clubs, Liberian warlords and many other things). Ultimately, Marantz's main interest lies not in any particular subject matter, but in how people form beliefs -- and under what circumstances those beliefs can change for the better.

Marantz is also a contributor to Radiolab and The New Yorker Radio Hour, and has written for Harper's, Mother Jones, the New York Times and many other outlets. He holds an undergraduate degree in religion from Brown University and a master's degree in literary nonfiction from New York University. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, who is a criminal-justice reformer; his two-year-old son, who is an excellent dancer; and an endless supply of peanut butter.

More profile about the speaker
Andrew Marantz | Speaker | TED.com
TED2019

Andrew Marantz: Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists

安德鲁·马兰茨: 深入网络喷子和网络推手的奇异世界

Filmed:
1,676,355 views

记者安德鲁·马兰茨(Andrew Marantz)花了三年时间深入网络喷子和网络推手的世界,寻找那些将边缘话题推入网络对话核心的人,并试图了解他们是如何传播自己的想法的。窥视网络宣传和充满错误信息的网络世界——并了解我们如何可以行动起来让网络变得不那么有害。
- Writer
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
I spent花费 the past过去 three years年份
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我花了三年的时间
00:14
talking to some of the worst最差
people on the internet互联网.
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在互联网上与一些最糟糕的人交谈。
00:18
Now, if you've been online线上 recently最近,
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如果你最近有上网,
00:20
you may可能 have noticed注意到 that there's
a lot of toxic有毒的 garbage垃圾 out there:
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你可能注意到网上
有大量的有害信息:
00:24
racist种族主义者 memes模因, misogynist厌恶 propaganda宣传,
viral病毒 misinformation误传.
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种族主义表情包,厌恶女性的宣传,
病毒式的错误信息。
00:29
So I wanted to know
who was making制造 this stuff东东.
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我想要知道是谁制造了这些东西。
我想要理解他们如何传播它们。
00:31
I wanted to understand理解
how they were spreading传播 it.
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最终,我想要知道
00:34
Ultimately最终,, I wanted to know
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它们会对我们的社会造成了怎样的影响。
00:35
what kind of impact碰撞
it might威力 be having on our society社会.
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所以在 2016 年,我开始追踪
其中一些表情包的源头,
00:38
So in 2016, I started开始 tracing追踪
some of these memes模因 back to their source资源,
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00:42
back to the people who were making制造 them
or who were making制造 them go viral病毒.
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回到制造它们或令它们
病毒式传播的人那里,
我接近那些人说,
00:45
I'd approach途径 those people and say,
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“嘿,我是记者,
我可以来看看你做什么吗?”
00:47
"Hey, I'm a journalist记者.
Can I come watch you do what you do?"
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通常我得到的回应是,
00:50
Now, often经常 the response响应 would be,
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“我到底为什么要和一个
00:51
"Why in hell地狱 would I want to talk to
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支持民主党的、住在布鲁克林的
00:53
some low-t低t soy-boy大豆男孩
Brooklyn布鲁克林 globalist全球主义者 Jew cuckcuck
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00:55
who's谁是 in cahoots同流合污 with the Democrat民主党人 Party派对?"
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全球主义犹太佬交谈?”
00:57
(Laughter笑声)
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(笑声)
00:59
To which哪一个 my response响应 would be,
"Look, man, that's only 57 percent百分 true真正."
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对此我的回应是,“瞧,伙计,
这只有 57% 是真的。”
01:03
(Laughter笑声)
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(笑声)
01:04
But often经常 I got the opposite对面 response响应.
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但常常我也得到相反的回应。
“好的,当然,来吧。”
01:06
"Yeah, sure, come on by."
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01:08
So that's how I ended结束 up
in the living活的 room房间
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于是我出现在了
一个住在南加州的
社交媒体推手的客厅里。
01:10
of a social社会 media媒体 propagandist宣传工作者
in Southern南部的 California加州.
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01:14
He was a married已婚 white白色 guy
in his late晚了 30s.
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他是一个 30 多岁的已婚白人。
01:16
He had a table in front面前 of him
with a mug of coffee咖啡,
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他面前是一张桌子,
桌子上放着咖啡,
01:19
a laptop笔记本电脑 for tweeting啁啾,
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一台用来发推特的笔记本电脑,
01:21
a phone电话 for texting发短信
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一台发短信的手机
01:23
and an iPadiPad的 for livestreaming即时串流
to Periscope潜望镜 and YouTubeYouTube的.
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和一台用来在 Periscope 和
YouTube 上直播的iPad。
01:27
That was it.
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就这些了。
01:28
And yet然而, with those tools工具,
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然而,通过这些工具,
01:30
he was able能够 to propel推进 his fringe边缘,
noxious talking points
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他能够将他那些边缘的、有害的谈资
01:34
into the heart of
the American美国 conversation会话.
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推进到美国人交谈的中心。
01:37
For example, one of the days I was there,
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比如,我在那的某个日子,
01:39
a bomb炸弹 had just exploded爆炸 in New York纽约,
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一个炸弹刚好在纽约爆炸,
01:42
and the guy accused被告 of planting种植 the bomb炸弹
had a Muslim-sounding穆斯林发音 name名称.
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而被指控安置炸弹的人
有一个穆斯林名字。
01:45
Now, to the propagandist宣传工作者 in California加州,
this seemed似乎 like an opportunity机会,
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对这个加州的社交推手来说,
这似乎是个机会,
01:50
because one of the things he wanted
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因为他想要
01:51
was for the US to cut off
almost几乎 all immigration移民,
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让美国切断几乎所有的移民,
01:54
especially特别 from Muslim-majority穆斯林占多数 countries国家.
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尤其是来自穆斯林国家的移民。
01:57
So he started开始 livestreaming即时串流,
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于是他开始直播,
01:59
getting得到 his followers追随者
worked工作 up into a frenzy发狂
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让他的追随者们对开放边界的议程
02:01
about how the open打开 borders国界 agenda议程
was going to kill us all
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将如何杀死我们所有人感到愤怒,
02:04
and asking them to tweet鸣叫 about this,
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并要求他们在推特上谈论此事,
02:06
and use specific具体 hashtags主题标签,
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使用特定的话题标签,
02:07
trying to get those hashtags主题标签 trending趋势.
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试图上推特话题热门。
02:09
And tweet鸣叫 they did --
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他们发了很多推文——
02:10
hundreds数以百计 and hundreds数以百计 of tweets微博,
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成百上千,
02:12
a lot of them featuring特色
images图片 like this one.
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很多都带着像这样的图片。
02:15
So that's George乔治 Soros索罗斯.
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这是乔治·索罗斯。
他是匈牙利裔的亿万富翁和慈善家,
02:17
He's a Hungarian匈牙利 billionaire亿万富翁
and philanthropist慈善家,
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02:19
and in the minds头脑
of some conspiracistsconspiracists online线上,
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在一些网上阴谋家看来,
02:22
George乔治 Soros索罗斯 is like
a globalist全球主义者 bogeyman妖怪,
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乔治·索罗斯就像一个全球主义者,
02:24
one of a few少数 elites精英 who is secretly偷偷
manipulating操纵 all of global全球 affairs事务.
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秘密操纵全球事务的精英之一。
02:29
Now, just to pause暂停 here:
if this idea理念 sounds声音 familiar to you,
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这里暂停一下:
如果这个你听起来熟悉,
02:32
that there are a few少数 elites精英
who control控制 the world世界
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有少数精英控制全球,
02:35
and a lot of them happen发生 to be rich丰富 Jews犹太人,
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并且很多人碰巧是有钱的犹太人,
02:37
that's because it is one of the most
anti-Semitic反犹太人的 tropes比喻 in existence存在.
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因为它是现存最反犹太人的比喻之一。
02:42
I should also mention提到 that the guy
in New York纽约 who planted种植的 that bomb炸弹,
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我还要提一下在纽约埋下炸弹的人,
02:45
he was an American美国 citizen公民.
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他是一个美国公民。
02:47
So whatever随你 else其他 was going on there,
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所以不管发生了什么,
02:50
immigration移民 was not the main主要 issue问题.
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移民并非主要问题。
02:53
And the propagandist宣传工作者 in California加州,
he understood了解 all this.
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而这位加州推手,他知道所有这些。
02:56
He was a well-read博学的 guy.
He was actually其实 a lawyer律师.
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他是个博览群书的人,
他其实是个律师。
02:58
He knew知道 the underlying底层 facts事实,
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他知道基本事实,
03:00
but he also knew知道 that facts事实
do not drive驾驶 conversation会话 online线上.
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但他也知道事实
不能推动网上的对话,
03:03
What drives驱动器 conversation会话 online线上
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驱动网上对话的
03:05
is emotion情感.
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是情绪。
03:07
See, the original原版的 premise前提 of social社会 media媒体
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社交媒体的最初愿景是
把我们连接在一起,
03:09
was that it was going
to bring带来 us all together一起,
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让世界变得更开放,宽容和平等……
03:11
make the world世界 more open打开
and tolerant宽容 and fair公平 ...
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它确实有这方面的作用。
03:14
And it did some of that.
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03:16
But the social社会 media媒体 algorithms算法
have never been built内置
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但社交媒体的算法却没被打造成
03:19
to distinguish区分 between之间
what's true真正 or false,
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可以区分真和假,
03:21
what's good or bad for society社会,
what's prosocial亲社会 and what's antisocial反社会的.
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对社会好还是坏,什么是
亲社会和什么反社会。
03:25
That's just not what those algorithms算法 do.
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这些内容,算法都没有涉及到。
03:28
A lot of what they do
is measure测量 engagement订婚:
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他们做的很多事情只是评估互动:
03:30
clicks点击, comments注释, shares分享,
retweets锐推, that kind of thing.
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点击、评论、分享、
转发之类的事情。
03:33
And if you want your content内容
to get engagement订婚,
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如果你要让你的内容获得互动,
03:36
it has to spark火花 emotion情感,
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它就得散播情绪,
03:38
specifically特别, what behavioral行为的 scientists科学家们
call "high-arousal高觉醒 emotion情感."
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具体来说,就是行为科学家
所说的那种“高唤醒情绪”。
03:42
Now, "high arousal觉醒" doesn't only
mean sexual有性 arousal觉醒,
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“高唤醒”不只是性唤起的意思,
03:44
although虽然 it's the internet互联网,
obviously明显 that works作品.
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虽然是在互联网上,但显然这是可行的。
03:47
It means手段 anything, positive or negative,
that gets得到 people's人们 hearts心中 pumping.
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它意味着任何事情,积极的
或消极的,让人们心脏加速跳动的。
03:51
So I would sit with these propagandists宣传,
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所以我和这些推手坐在一起,
03:53
not just the guy in California加州,
but dozens许多 of them,
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不只是加州这个伙计,
还有其他很多人,
我看着他们一次又一次地
成功做这些事情,
03:56
and I would watch as they did this
again and again successfully顺利,
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03:59
not because they were Russian俄语 hackers黑客,
not because they were tech高科技 prodigies天才,
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并非因为他们是俄罗斯黑客,
并非因为他们是科技神童,
04:03
not because they had
unique独特 political政治 insights见解 --
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并非因为他们有独特的政治洞察——
04:05
just because they understood了解
how social社会 media媒体 worked工作,
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只是因为他们理解
社交媒体的运行方式,
04:08
and they were willing愿意
to exploit利用 it to their advantage优点.
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并且他们愿意为他们的利益利用它。
一开始我告诉自己这是个边缘现象,
04:10
Now, at first I was able能够 to tell myself
this was a fringe边缘 phenomenon现象,
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这种跟互联网有关的东西。
04:14
something that was
relegated降级 to the internet互联网.
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04:16
But there's really no separation分割 anymore
between之间 the internet互联网 and everything else其他.
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但互联网和其他东西没有任何区别。
04:20
This is an ad广告 that ran
on multiple TV电视 stations
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这是一则在 2018 年国会选举期间
04:22
during the 2018 congressional国会 elections选举,
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在多家电视台播放的广告,
04:25
alleging指控 with very little evidence证据
that one of the candidates候选人
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基本没有证据的指控,
其中一名候选人
04:28
was in the pocket口袋 of
international国际 manipulator机械手 George乔治 Soros索罗斯,
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受到了国际金融操纵者
乔治·索罗斯的操控,
04:31
who is awkwardly笨拙 photoshoppedPhotoshop处理 here
next下一个 to stacks of cash现金.
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他被 PS 到了成堆的现金旁边。
04:35
This is a tweet鸣叫 from
the President主席 of the United联合的 States状态,
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这是一个来自美国总统的推特,
04:37
alleging指控, again with no evidence证据,
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同样没有证据的指控,
04:39
that American美国 politics政治 is being存在
manipulated操纵 by George乔治 Soros索罗斯.
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美国政治被乔治·索罗斯操纵。
04:43
This stuff东东 that once一旦 seemed似乎 so shocking触目惊心
and marginal边缘 and, frankly坦率地说, just ignorable忽略,
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这些东西看起来那么令人震惊却微不足道,
坦白地说,简直是可以忽略不计,
04:47
it's now so normalized标准化
that we hardly几乎不 even notice注意 it.
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它现在是如此的平常化,
以至于我们几乎没有注意到它。
04:50
So I spent花费 about
three years年份 in this world世界.
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于是我在这个世界花了三年的时间。
04:52
I talked to a lot of people.
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我跟很多人交谈过。
04:53
Some of them seemed似乎 to have
no core核心 beliefs信仰 at all.
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他们中有些人似乎根本没有核心信仰。
04:56
They just seemed似乎 to be betting博彩,
perfectly完美 rationally合理,
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他们只是在完全理性地下注,
04:58
that if they wanted
to make some money online线上
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如果他们想在网上赚钱
或获得关注,
05:01
or get some attention注意 online线上,
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他们就应该尽可能地离谱。
05:02
they should just be
as outrageous蛮横的 as possible可能.
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05:04
But I talked to other people
who were true真正 ideologues空想家.
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但我也和其他真正
的意识形态拥护者谈过。
05:08
And to be clear明确, their ideology思想
was not traditional传统 conservatism保守主义.
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需要明确的是,他们的意识形态
不是传统的保守主义。
05:12
These were people who wanted
to revoke撤销 female suffrage选举权.
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这些人想要废除女性选举权。
05:15
These were people who wanted
to go back to racial种族 segregation隔离.
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这些人想要回到种族隔离时代。
他们中的一些人想彻底废除民主。
05:18
Some of them wanted to do away
with democracy民主 altogether.
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05:21
Now, obviously明显 these people
were not born天生 believing相信 these things.
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很明显,这些人并不是生来
就相信这些事情的。
他们不是小学的时候就学习这些。
05:24
They didn't pick them up
in elementary初级 school学校.
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05:26
A lot of them, before they went
down some internet互联网 rabbit兔子 hole,
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他们中的很多人,
在他们掉进网络的泥潭前,
他们要么是自由主义者,
要么是社会主义者,
05:29
they had been libertarian自由主义者
or they had been socialist社会主义的
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要么是完全不同的人。
05:32
or they had been something else其他 entirely完全.
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那么到底发生了什么?
05:34
So what was going on?
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05:36
Well, I can't generalize概括 about every一切 case案件,
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我不能对每个案例一概而论,
但很多我交谈过的人,
05:39
but a lot of the people I spoke to,
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05:40
they seem似乎 to have a combination组合
of a high IQ智商 and a low EQ情 商.
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他们似乎是高智商和
低情商的结合体。
05:44
They seem似乎 to take comfort安慰
in anonymous匿名, online线上 spaces空间
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他们似乎对匿名
和在线空间感到更舒服,
05:48
rather than connecting in the real真实 world世界.
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而非在现实世界中的连接。
05:50
So often经常 they would retreat撤退
to these message信息 boards
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他们经常会回到这些留言板
05:53
or these subreddits子雷迪特,
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或子版块上,
05:54
where their worst最差 impulses冲动
would be magnified放大.
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在那里,他们糟糕的冲动会被放大。
05:56
They might威力 start开始 out saying
something just as a sick生病 joke玩笑,
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他们可能一开始说的
只是个恶心的笑话,
06:00
and then they would get so much
positive reinforcement加强 for that joke玩笑,
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然后他们因为这个笑话
而得到很多积极的支持,
正如他们所说的,
这么多毫无意义的“互联网观点”,
06:03
so many许多 meaningless无意义的
"internet互联网 points," as they called it,
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06:06
that they might威力 start开始
believing相信 their own拥有 joke玩笑.
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他们可能会开始相信自己的笑话。
06:10
I talked a lot with one young年轻 woman女人
who grew成长 up in New Jersey新泽西,
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我跟一个成长在新泽西的
年轻姑娘聊过很多,
06:13
and then after high school学校,
she moved移动 to a new place地点
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在她高中毕业后,她搬到新地方
并突然感到被疏远,
06:16
and suddenly突然 she just felt
alienated疏远 and cut off
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开始迷失在手机里。
06:18
and started开始 retreating撤退 into her phone电话.
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06:20
She found发现 some of these
spaces空间 on the internet互联网
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她发现互联网上有一些空间,
06:23
where people would post岗位
the most shocking触目惊心, heinous滔天 things.
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人们在那里发表一些最令人震惊、
最令人发指的内容。
06:25
And she found发现 this stuff东东
really off-putting倒胃口
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她觉得这些东西很讨厌,
06:28
but also kind of engrossing引人入胜,
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但也很吸引人,
06:30
kind of like she couldn't不能
look away from it.
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很难把视线从它们身上移开。
06:33
She started开始 interacting互动 with people
in these online线上 spaces空间,
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她开始与这些线上空间的人交流,
她觉得这些人很聪明,他们被认可了。
06:36
and they made制作 her feel smart聪明,
they made制作 her feel validated验证.
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她开始体会到社区的温暖,
06:38
She started开始 feeling感觉 a sense of community社区,
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开始怀疑这些令人震惊的表情包中
06:40
started开始 wondering想知道 if maybe
some of these shocking触目惊心 memes模因
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可能包含着真理。
06:43
might威力 actually其实 contain包含 a kernel核心 of truth真相.
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06:46
A few少数 months个月 later后来, she was in a car汽车
with some of her new internet互联网 friends朋友
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几个月后,她跟她认识的
几个新网友一起坐车
前往弗吉尼亚州的夏洛茨维尔,
06:49
headed当家 to Charlottesville夏洛茨维尔, Virginia弗吉尼亚州,
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以白种人的名义举着火炬游行。
06:51
to march游行 with torches火炬
in the name名称 of the white白色 race种族.
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06:55
She'd gone走了, in a few少数 months个月,
from Obama奥巴马 supporter支持者
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几个月的时间,
她就从奥巴马的支持者
06:57
to fully充分 radicalized激进 white白色 supremacist至上主义.
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变成了激进的白人至上主义者。
07:01
Now, in her particular特定 case案件,
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对于这种情况,
07:03
she actually其实 was able能够 to find her way
out of the cult礼拜 of white白色 supremacy霸权.
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她实际上能找到自己的方式
来摆脱白人至上的崇拜。
07:08
But a lot of the people
I spoke to were not.
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但很多与我交谈的人不能。
07:10
And just to be clear明确:
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说得更明白些:
07:12
I was never so convinced相信
that I had to find common共同 ground地面
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我从未如此确信我必须
07:15
with every一切 single person I spoke to
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与每一个我愿意说这句话的人
07:17
that I was willing愿意 to say,
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找到共同点,
“你知道吗,伙计,
你是法西斯拥护者,我不是,
07:18
"You know what, man,
you're a fascist法西斯 propagandist宣传工作者, I'm not,
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07:21
whatever随你, let's just hug拥抱 it out,
all our differences分歧 will melt熔化 away."
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不管怎样,让我们拥抱彼此吧,
我们所有的分歧都会消失。”
不,绝对不会。
07:25
No, absolutely绝对 not.
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07:28
But I did become成为 convinced相信 that we cannot不能
just look away from this stuff东东.
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但我的确变得确信,
我们不能无视这些东西。
07:31
We have to try to understand理解 it,
because only by understanding理解 it
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我们必须试图理解它,
因为只有通过理解它,
07:34
can we even start开始 to inoculate接种
ourselves我们自己 against反对 it.
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我们才能开始预防它。
07:39
In my three years年份 in this world世界,
I got a few少数 nasty讨厌 phone电话 calls电话,
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在这个世界的三年时间中,
我接到过一些让人不快的电话,
07:42
even some threats威胁,
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甚至有些是威胁,
07:44
but it wasn't a fraction分数 of what
female journalists记者 get on this beat击败.
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但跟女记者收到的威胁相比
算是小巫见大巫了。
07:48
And yeah, I am Jewish犹太,
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是的,我是犹太人,
07:50
although虽然, weirdly古怪, a lot of the Nazis纳粹
couldn't不能 tell I was Jewish犹太,
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不过奇怪的是,很多纳粹分子
看不出我是犹太人,
07:53
which哪一个 I frankly坦率地说 just found发现
kind of disappointing令人失望.
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坦白说这让我有点失望。
07:56
(Laughter笑声)
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(笑声)
07:58
Seriously认真地, like, your whole整个 job工作
is being存在 a professional专业的 anti-Semite反犹份子.
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说真的,你的工作就是
一个专业的反犹份子。
08:03
Nothing about me
is tipping小费 you off at all?
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我就没有表露一丁点这种特征?
08:05
Nothing?
175
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一点都没有?
08:06
(Laughter笑声)
176
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(笑声)
08:09
This is not a secret秘密.
177
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这并不是个秘密。
我叫安德鲁·马兰兹,
为《纽约客》撰稿,
08:11
My name名称 is Andrew安德鲁 Marantz马兰茨,
I write for "The New Yorker纽约客,"
178
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08:13
my personality个性 type类型
is like if a Seinfeld宋飞 episode插曲
179
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我的性格类型就像《宋飞正传》里面
08:16
was taped录音 at the Park公园 Slope Food餐饮 Coop鸡舍.
180
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在公园坡的食品店里录制的那一集。
08:18
Nothing?
181
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一点都没有?
08:19
(Laughter笑声)
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(笑声)
08:24
Anyway无论如何, look -- ultimately最终,
it would be nice不错
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不管怎样,最终,如果有一个
08:27
if there were, like, a simple简单 formula:
184
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简单的公式就好了:
08:29
smartphone手机 plus alienated疏远 kid孩子
equals等于 12 percent百分 chance机会 of Nazi纳粹.
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智能手机加上被疏远的孩子
等于 12% 的纳粹几率。
08:33
It's obviously明显 not that simple简单.
186
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这当然不是那样简单。
08:36
And in my writing写作,
187
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在我的文章中,
08:37
I'm much more comfortable自在
being存在 descriptive描述的, not prescriptive规范.
188
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我更喜欢用描述性的,
而不是指令性的字眼。
08:41
But this is TEDTED,
189
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但这是 TED,
08:43
so let's get practical实际的.
190
511714
1987
所以让我们实际点。
08:45
I want to share分享 a few少数 suggestions建议
191
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我想要分享几点能让
08:47
of things that citizens公民
of the internet互联网 like you and I
192
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像你和我这样的互联网公民去做的
08:50
might威力 be able能够 to do to make things
a little bit less toxic有毒的.
193
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能够让事情变得不那么
糟糕的建议。
08:54
So the first one is to be a smart聪明 skeptic怀疑论者.
194
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2300
首先,要做一个聪明的怀疑论者。
08:57
So, I think there are
two kinds of skepticism怀疑论.
195
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我认为有两种怀疑论。
09:00
And I don't want to drown you in technical技术
epistemological认识论 information信息 here,
196
528185
4228
我不想让你们沉浸在
技术认识论信息中,
09:04
but I call them smart聪明 and dumb skepticism怀疑论.
197
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但我把它们称为
聪明和愚蠢的怀疑主义。
09:08
So, smart聪明 skepticism怀疑论:
198
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2507
聪明的怀疑者是:
09:10
thinking思维 for yourself你自己,
199
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1204
独立思考,
09:11
questioning疑问 every一切 claim要求,
200
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怀疑任何宣称,
09:13
demanding严格 evidence证据 --
201
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要求证据——
09:14
great, that's real真实 skepticism怀疑论.
202
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很好,这是真正的怀疑。
09:17
Dumb skepticism怀疑论:
it sounds声音 like skepticism怀疑论,
203
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愚蠢的怀疑者:听起来像怀疑,
09:20
but it's actually其实 closer接近
to knee-jerk膝反射 contrarianism反向主义.
204
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但实际上它更接近于
下意识的逆向抬杠。
09:23
Everyone大家 says the earth地球 is round回合,
205
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人人都说地球是圆的,
09:25
you say it's flat平面.
206
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1356
你说它是平的。
09:26
Everyone大家 says racism种族主义 is bad,
207
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人人都说种族主义不好,
09:28
you say, "I dunno不知道,
I'm skeptical怀疑的 about that."
208
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你说,“我不知道,我对此表示怀疑。”
09:31
I cannot不能 tell you how many许多 young年轻 white白色 men男人
I have spoken to in the last few少数 years年份
209
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我无法告诉你,在过去 5 年中
我聊过的人中有多少年轻白人
09:35
who have said,
210
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说过,
09:37
"You know, the media媒体, my teachers教师,
they're all trying to indoctrinate灌输 me
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“媒体,我的老师,
他们都试图向我灌输相信
男性特权和白人特权的观念,
09:40
into believing相信 in male privilege特权
and white白色 privilege特权,
212
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但我不知道,我不这么认为。”
09:42
but I don't know about that,
man, I don't think so."
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伙计们——世界上叛逆
的白人青少年——
09:45
Guys -- contrarian逆势
white白色 teens青少年 of the world世界 --
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3137
09:48
look:
215
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这么说吧:
09:50
if you are being存在 a round回合 earth地球 skeptic怀疑论者
and a male privilege特权 skeptic怀疑论者
216
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如果你质疑地球不是圆的,
质疑男性至上这种说法是错的,
09:54
and a racism种族主义 is bad skeptic怀疑论者,
217
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或是质疑种族主义是不对的,
09:56
you're not being存在 a skeptic怀疑论者,
you're being存在 a jerk混蛋.
218
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你不是怀疑论者,你是个混蛋。
09:59
(Applause掌声)
219
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3593
(鼓掌)
10:04
It's great to be independent-minded独立思想,
we all should be independent-minded独立思想,
220
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有独立的思想很好,
我们都应该有独立的思想,
10:07
but just be smart聪明 about it.
221
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但要对此足够智慧。
10:09
So this next下一个 one is about free自由 speech言语.
222
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下一个是关于言论自由。
10:11
You will hear smart聪明, accomplished完成 people
who will say, "Well, I'm pro-free支持自由 speech言语,"
223
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你会听到聪明,有成就的人说:
“我支持言论自由,”
10:15
and they say it in this way
that it's like they're settling解决 a debate辩论,
224
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他们这样说,就像他们
在终结一场辩论,
10:19
when actually其实, that is the very beginning开始
of any meaningful富有意义的 conversation会话.
225
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实际上,这是任何有意义的对话的开始。
10:23
All the interesting有趣 stuff东东
happens发生 after that point.
226
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所有有趣的事情都发生在这个观点后。
10:26
OK, you're pro-free支持自由 speech言语.
What does that mean?
227
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好的,你支持言论自由,那意味着啥?
10:28
Does it mean that David大卫 Duke公爵
and Richard理查德 Spencer斯宾塞
228
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这意味着大卫·杜克和理查德·斯宾塞
必须得激活推特账号吗?
10:30
need to have active活性 Twitter推特 accounts账户?
229
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10:32
Does it mean that anyone任何人
can harass骚扰 anyone任何人 else其他 online线上
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这意味着每个人都可因任何理由
10:35
for any reason原因?
231
623555
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在网上攻击别人吗?
10:37
You know, I looked看着 through通过
the entire整个 list名单 of TEDTED speakers音箱 this year.
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我看了今年 TED 所有的演讲者清单。
我并没有发现一个人怀疑地球是圆的。
10:40
I didn't find a single
round回合 earth地球 skeptic怀疑论者.
233
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这违反了言论自由的准则吗?
10:42
Is that a violation违反 of free自由 speech言语 norms规范?
234
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2142
10:45
Look, we're all pro-free支持自由 speech言语,
it's wonderful精彩 to be pro-free支持自由 speech言语,
235
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我们都是言论自由的支持者,
支持言论自由很好,
10:48
but if that's all you know
how to say again and again,
236
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但如果你知道只是
一次又一次地重复这句话,
10:51
you're standing常设 in the way
of a more productive生产的 conversation会话.
237
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你就阻碍了一次更有成效的谈话。
10:56
Making制造 decency风化 cool again, so ...
238
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让体面再次变酷,所以……
10:59
Great!
239
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1198
很棒!
11:00
(Applause掌声)
240
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1541
(鼓掌)
11:02
Yeah. I don't even need to explain说明 it.
241
650051
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是的,我甚至都不需要解释它。
11:04
So in my research研究, I would go
to Reddit书签交易 or YouTubeYouTube的 or FacebookFacebook的,
242
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在我的研究中,我会去 Reddit、
YouTube 或 Facebook,
11:08
and I would search搜索 for "sharia伊斯兰教 law"
243
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搜索“古兰经”,
11:10
or I would search搜索 for "the Holocaust大屠杀,"
244
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或是“反犹大屠杀”,
11:12
and you might威力 be able能够 to guess猜测
what the algorithms算法 showed显示 me, right?
245
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你们可能能够猜到算法
会向我展示啥,是吧?
11:16
"Is sharia伊斯兰教 law sweeping笼统的
across横过 the United联合的 States状态?"
246
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“可兰经正在席卷美国吗?”
11:19
"Did the Holocaust大屠杀 really happen发生?"
247
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2094
“反犹大屠杀真的发生过吗?”
11:22
Dumb skepticism怀疑论.
248
670291
1258
愚蠢的怀疑主义。
11:24
So we've我们已经 ended结束 up in this
bizarre奇异的 dynamic动态 online线上,
249
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于是我们就陷入了
这种奇怪的网络动态,
11:27
where some people see bigoted拘泥 propaganda宣传
250
675240
2092
有些人把看到的偏执的宣传
11:29
as being存在 edgy前卫 or being存在 dangerous危险 and cool,
251
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看作是很新潮的、或是危险但又很酷的,
11:32
and people see basic基本 truth真相
and human人的 decency风化 as pearl-clutching珍珠抓握
252
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人们反而觉得基本的真理
和人类的尊严有些令人感到震惊,
11:35
or virtue-signaling美德信号 or just boring无聊.
253
683397
2544
或是有些圣母,或是无聊的。
11:38
And the social社会 media媒体 algorithms算法,
whether是否 intentionally故意地 or not,
254
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社交媒体算法,不管是有意还是无意,
11:41
they have incentivized诱因 this,
255
689642
2023
一直都在火上浇油,
11:43
because bigoted拘泥 propaganda宣传
is great for engagement订婚.
256
691689
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因为偏执的煽动对于互动很有帮助。
11:46
Everyone大家 clicks点击 on it,
everyone大家 comments注释 on it,
257
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每个人都点击它,每个人都评论它,
11:48
whether是否 they love it or they hate讨厌 it.
258
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不管他们爱它还是讨厌它。
11:51
So the number one thing
that has to happen发生 here
259
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所以当务之急就是,
11:53
is social社会 networks网络 need
to fix固定 their platforms平台.
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社交网络需要修复它们的平台。
11:57
(Applause掌声)
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(鼓掌)
12:01
So if you're listening to my voice语音
and you work at a social社会 media媒体 company公司
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那么,如果你在听我的演讲,
你在社交媒体公司工作,
12:05
or you invest投资 in one
or, I don't know, own拥有 one,
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或你投资了一家,或者拥有一家,
12:08
this tip小费 is for you.
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这条建议是给你的。
12:10
If you have been optimizing优化
for maximum最大值 emotional情绪化 engagement订婚
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如果你一直在优化
以实现最大化情感式的互动,
12:14
and maximum最大值 emotional情绪化 engagement订婚 turns out
to be actively积极地 harming汉宁波 the world世界,
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而最大化的情感式互动实际上
正在伤害着这个世界,
12:18
it's time to optimize优化 for something else其他.
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是时候以其他事情为优化目标了。
12:20
(Applause掌声)
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(鼓掌)
12:26
But in addition加成 to putting pressure压力
on them to do that
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但除了向社交平台施加压力
12:30
and waiting等候 for them
and hoping希望 that they'll他们会 do that,
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并等待和希望他们会行动之外,
12:33
there's some stuff东东 that
the rest休息 of us can do, too.
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有一些事情其他人也可以去做。
12:35
So, we can create创建 some better pathways途径
or suggest建议 some better pathways途径
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这样,我们就能够创造一些更好的途径,
或者找到一些更好的途径,
12:40
for angstyangsty teens青少年 to go down.
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减少青少年中的焦虑情绪。
12:42
If you see something that you think
is really creative创作的 and thoughtful周到
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如果你看到一些你认为真的
有创意和有思想的东西,
并且你想要分享那个东西,
你就可以分享,
12:45
and you want to share分享 that thing,
you can share分享 that thing,
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即使它没有让你充满高度兴奋的情绪。
12:48
even if it's not flooding洪水 you
with high arousal觉醒 emotion情感.
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我发现那真是很小的一步,
12:51
Now that is a very small step, I realize实现,
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但总的来说,这些东西真的很重要,
12:53
but in the aggregate骨料,
this stuff东东 does matter,
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12:55
because these algorithms算法,
as powerful强大 as they are,
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因为这些算法本身非常强大,
它们会从我们身上获取行为线索。
12:57
they are taking服用 their
behavioral行为的 cues线索 from us.
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13:01
So let me leave离开 you with this.
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我还想告诉大家,
13:03
You know, a few少数 years年份 ago
it was really fashionable时髦
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几年前,非常时尚的说法是
13:06
to say that the internet互联网
was a revolutionary革命的 tool工具
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互联网是革命性的工具,
13:08
that was going to bring带来 us all together一起.
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将会把我们聚在一起。
13:11
It's now more fashionable时髦 to say
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如今更时尚的说法是
13:12
that the internet互联网 is a huge巨大,
irredeemable不可赎回 dumpster垃圾箱 fire.
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互联网是一场不可挽回的垃圾箱火灾。
13:16
Neither也不 caricature漫画 is really true真正.
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两种说法都不完全正确。
13:18
We know the internet互联网
is just too vast广大 and complex复杂
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我们知道互联网太大太复杂,
13:21
to be all good or all bad.
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以至于不可能是全好或全不好的。
13:22
And the danger危险 with
these ways方法 of thinking思维,
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这种思考方式的危险在于,
13:24
whether是否 it's the utopian乌托邦 view视图
that the internet互联网 will inevitably必将 save保存 us
291
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无论是乌托邦的观点——
互联网将不可避免地拯救我们,
13:28
or the dystopian反乌托邦 view视图 that it
will inevitably必将 destroy破坏 us,
292
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还是反乌托邦式的观点——
互联网将不可避免地摧毁我们,
13:31
either way, we're letting出租
ourselves我们自己 off the hook.
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不管怎样,我们要让自己摆脱困境。
13:35
There is nothing inevitable必然
about our future未来.
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我们的未来没有什么是不可避免的。
13:38
The internet互联网 is made制作 of people.
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互联网由人组成。
13:40
People make decisions决定
at social社会 media媒体 companies公司.
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是人们在社交媒体公司中做决定。
13:43
People make hashtags主题标签 trend趋势 or not trend趋势.
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是人们让话题标签热门或不热门。
13:46
People make societies社会 progress进展 or regress回归.
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是人们让社会进步或退步。
13:51
When we internalize内在 that fact事实,
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当我们内化这个事实时,
13:52
we can stop waiting等候
for some inevitable必然 future未来 to arrive到达
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就不会坐以待毙,
13:55
and actually其实 get to work now.
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现在就开始着手应对。
13:58
You know, we've我们已经 all been taught
that the arc of the moral道德 universe宇宙 is long
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我们都被教育过人类的道德轨迹绵长,
但它终归正义。
14:02
but that it bends弯曲 toward justice正义.
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14:06
Maybe.
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也许。
14:08
Maybe it will.
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也许会的。
14:10
But that has always been an aspiration心愿.
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但这一直是一个愿望。
14:13
It is not a guarantee保证.
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它不是个保证。
14:15
The arc doesn't bend弯曲 itself本身.
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道德轨迹并不会自己转向。
14:18
It's not bent弯曲 inevitably必将
by some mysterious神秘 force.
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它不会被某种神秘力量改变轨迹。
14:21
The real真实 truth真相,
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真正的事实,
14:23
which哪一个 is scarier可怕 and also more liberating解放,
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有些可怕但也更加令人舒心,
14:26
is that we bend弯曲 it.
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是我们能够改变它。
14:28
Thank you.
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谢谢。
14:30
(Applause掌声)
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(鼓掌)
Translated by psjmz mz
Reviewed by Lipeng Chen

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Andrew Marantz - Writer
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world.

Why you should listen

Since 2016, Andrew Marantz has been at work on a book about the perils of virality, the myth of linear progress and the American far right. To report the book, he spent several years embedded with some of the conspiracists, white supremacists and nihilist trolls who have become experts at using social media to advance their corrosive agendas. He also watched as some of social media's earliest and most influential founders started to reckon with the forces they'd unleashed. The book, forthcoming in October from Viking Press, is called Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hijacking of the American Conversation

Marantz became a staff writer at the New Yorker in 2017. Prior to that, he worked on the magazine's editorial staff, splitting his time between writing stories (about such topics as hip-hop purism and the Truman Show delusion) and editing stories (about Las Vegas night clubs, Liberian warlords and many other things). Ultimately, Marantz's main interest lies not in any particular subject matter, but in how people form beliefs -- and under what circumstances those beliefs can change for the better.

Marantz is also a contributor to Radiolab and The New Yorker Radio Hour, and has written for Harper's, Mother Jones, the New York Times and many other outlets. He holds an undergraduate degree in religion from Brown University and a master's degree in literary nonfiction from New York University. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, who is a criminal-justice reformer; his two-year-old son, who is an excellent dancer; and an endless supply of peanut butter.

More profile about the speaker
Andrew Marantz | Speaker | TED.com

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