TED Salon: Border Stories
Will Hurd: A wall won't solve America's border problems
威尔·赫德 和 安妮·米尔格拉姆: 一道墙不能解决美国的边境问题
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Readability: 4.4
1,447,691 views
“从东海岸到西海岸建造一道 30 英尺高的混凝土结构建筑是解决边境安全问题最昂贵又无效的方法。”国会议员，来自德克萨斯州的共和党人威尔·赫德（Will Hurd）这样说。他的辖区横跨两个时区，与墨西哥共享 820 英里边境线。与前州检察长安妮·米尔格拉姆（Anne Milgram）在华盛顿的视频采访中，赫德讨论了美国政府的边境政策和有争议的扣留和儿童分离做法，并且勾画出走向更好的边境未来的步骤。 （2019 年 9 月 10 日录制于纽约 TED 世界剧院）
Will Hurd - Politician
Congressman Will Hurd represents the 23rd District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving constituents across 29 counties and two time zones from San Antonio to El Paso. Full bioAnne Milgram - Criminal justice reformer
Anne Milgram is committed to using data and analytics to fight crime. Full bio
Congressman Will Hurd represents the 23rd District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving constituents across 29 counties and two time zones from San Antonio to El Paso. Full bioAnne Milgram - Criminal justice reformer
Anne Milgram is committed to using data and analytics to fight crime. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Anne Milgram: Congressman,
I was about to introduce you
I was about to introduce you
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安妮·米尔格拉姆：
议员先生，接下来我会介绍你，
议员先生，接下来我会介绍你，
然后说一些——
00:15
and say a little more --
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威尔·赫德：
嘿，安妮，你好吗？
嘿，安妮，你好吗？
00:16
Will Hurd: Hey, Anne. How are you?
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安妮：你好。
非常感谢今晚你的参与。
非常感谢今晚你的参与。
00:18
AM: Hi, how are you doing?
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
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00:21
We're so lucky to have you here with us.
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非常幸运今天能邀请到你。
00:24
I've already explained
that you're actually in Washington
that you're actually in Washington
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我已经跟大家解释过了
因为工作原因，
因为工作原因，
你现在人在华盛顿。
00:26
because you're working.
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00:28
And I was about to tell folks
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而且我正要告诉大家
00:29
that you represent
the 23rd district of Texas.
the 23rd district of Texas.
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你代表的是德克萨斯州的 23 区。
00:33
But maybe you could tell us
a little bit about your district
a little bit about your district
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也许你可以跟我们
多介绍一下 23 区，
多介绍一下 23 区，
00:36
and describe it for us.
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为我们描述一下吧。
00:39
WH: Sure, my district in Southwest Texas
is 29 counties, two time zones,
is 29 counties, two time zones,
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威尔：没问题，我代表的区在
德克萨斯西南部，包括 29 个县，
德克萨斯西南部，包括 29 个县，
00:45
820 miles of border
from Eagle Pass, Texas
from Eagle Pass, Texas
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跨越 2 个时区，从伊格尔帕斯市
一直到埃尔帕索市，
一直到埃尔帕索市，
00:49
all the way to El Paso.
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沿着边境线共 820 英里。
00:51
It takes 10 and a half hours to drive
across my district at 80 miles an hour,
across my district at 80 miles an hour,
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大部分地方的限速
是 80 英里每小时，
是 80 英里每小时，
00:55
which is the speed limit
in most of the district.
in most of the district.
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穿越这个区需要 10 个半小时。
00:58
And I found out a couple of weekends ago,
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然而我们几周前才发现，
01:00
it's not the speed limit
in all the district.
in all the district.
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这并不是整个区的限速。
01:02
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:03
It's a 71-percent Latino district,
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这里 71% 人口是拉丁裔，
01:07
and it's the district that
I've been representing
I've been representing
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这个区是我在国会的第三任期
01:10
for now my third term in Congress.
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所代表的区。
01:13
And when you think
about the issue of the border,
about the issue of the border,
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当你们想到边境问题时，
01:16
I have more border
than any other member of Congress.
than any other member of Congress.
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我比其它国会议员
拥有更多的边境区域。
拥有更多的边境区域。
01:19
I spent nine and a half years
as an undercover officer in the CIA,
as an undercover officer in the CIA,
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我曾花了 9 年半时间以
CIA （中央情报局） 卧底的身份
CIA （中央情报局） 卧底的身份
01:23
chasing bad people all across the country.
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在全国各处追捕坏人。
01:26
So when it comes to securing our border,
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所以当要来保卫边境时，
01:28
it's something I know a little bit about.
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我对此方面了解得非常少。
01:31
AM: One of the things I learned recently
which I hadn't known before
which I hadn't known before
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安妮：我最近才知道的一件事情是
你这个区的占地大小，我想
01:34
is that your district
is actually the size, I think,
is actually the size, I think,
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01:37
of the state of Georgia?
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跟整个佐治亚州差不多？
01:40
WH: That's right.
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威尔：对的。
它比 26 个州的面积大，
基本上等于佐治亚州的大小。
基本上等于佐治亚州的大小。
01:41
It's larger than 26 states,
roughly the size of the state of Georgia.
roughly the size of the state of Georgia.
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01:45
So it's pretty big.
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所以它很大。
01:48
AM: So as an expert in national security
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安妮：你作为国家安全方面的专家
01:50
and as a member of Congress,
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和国会议员之一，
01:52
you've been called upon
to think about issues
to think about issues
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曾经被要求去考虑
01:54
related to immigration,
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移民相关的问题，
01:56
and in recent years,
particularly about the border wall.
particularly about the border wall.
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特别是最近几年的边境墙问题。
02:00
What is your reaction
to President Trump's statement
to President Trump's statement
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你对于特朗普总统的声明——
02:03
that we need a big, beautiful wall
that would stretch across our border,
that would stretch across our border,
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我们需要在边境建造巨大、美观、
高度在 18 到 30 英尺的墙，
高度在 18 到 30 英尺的墙，
02:07
and at 18 to 30 feet high?
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有什么看法？
02:11
WH: I've been saying this since I first
ran for Congress back in 2009,
ran for Congress back in 2009,
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威尔：其实我在 2009 年
竞选国会议员时就说过这件事，
竞选国会议员时就说过这件事，
02:15
this is not a new topic,
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这并不是一个新的议题，
02:16
that building a 30-foot-high
concrete structure
concrete structure
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从东海岸到西海岸建造一个
02:19
from sea to shining sea
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30 英尺高的混凝土结构建筑
02:20
is the most expensive
and least effective way
and least effective way
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是一种对保卫边境安全最昂贵
02:23
to do border security.
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又最无效的方法。
02:25
There are parts of the border
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在部分边境，
02:27
where Border Patrol's
response time to a threat
response time to a threat
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边境巡逻队对威胁的响应时间
02:31
is measured in hours to days.
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以小时或天计算。
02:33
If your response time
is measured in hours to days,
is measured in hours to days,
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如果响应时间如此之长，
02:37
then a wall is not a physical barrier.
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那么这个墙并不是物理上的屏障。
02:40
We should be having technology
along the border,
along the border,
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我们需要沿着边境应用一些技术，
02:42
we should have operation
control of our border,
control of our border,
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需要有对边境的行动控制，
02:46
which means we know everything
that's going back and forth across it.
that's going back and forth across it.
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意味着我们需要了解
从边境来回穿越的所有东西。
从边境来回穿越的所有东西。
02:50
We can do a lot of that with technology.
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我们可以利用技术做很多事情，
02:52
We also need more folks
within our border patrol.
within our border patrol.
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我们也需要边境巡逻队
引入更多人员。
引入更多人员。
02:55
But in addition to doing all this,
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但是除了做这些，
02:57
one of the things we should be able to do
is streamline legal immigration.
is streamline legal immigration.
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我们还需要做的事情之一
是简化合法移民入境流程。
是简化合法移民入境流程。
03:02
If you're going to be
a productive member of our society,
a productive member of our society,
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如果你会成为我们社会中
有生产力的一员，
有生产力的一员，
03:05
let's get you here as quickly as possible,
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我们会尽快让你移民到这里，
而且得通过合法途径。
03:07
but let's do it legally.
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03:08
And if we're able to streamline that,
then you're going to see
then you're going to see
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如果我们能够简化
合法移民入境流程，
合法移民入境流程，
你们会看见我们边境压力被缓解，
03:11
some of the pressures
relieved along our border
relieved along our border
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03:14
and allow men and women in Border Patrol
to focus on human trafficking
to focus on human trafficking
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而且会让边境巡逻队更专注于
03:19
and drug-trafficking
organizations as well.
organizations as well.
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人口贩卖和贩毒组织。
03:22
AM: Congressman,
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安妮： 议员先生，
03:25
there's also been a conversation
nationally about using emergency funds
nationally about using emergency funds
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全国范围内还有一种讨论，
关于使用紧急资金
关于使用紧急资金
03:30
to build the border wall
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和来自美国军方的资金
03:31
and taking those funds
from the United States military.
from the United States military.
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建造边境墙。
03:35
What has your position been on that issue?
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你在这个问题上持何立场？
03:38
WH: I'm one of the few Republicans up here
that has opposed that effort.
that has opposed that effort.
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威尔：我是对此持反对意见的
少数共和党人之一。
少数共和党人之一。
03:43
We are just now rebuilding our military,
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我们现在正在重建我们的军队，
03:46
and taking funds away from making sure
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需要资金来确保
03:48
that our brothers and sisters,
our wives and our husbands
our wives and our husbands
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我们的兄弟姐妹，
我们的妻子或丈夫
我们的妻子或丈夫
03:52
have the training and equipment they need
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得到他们所需的培训和装备，
03:55
in order to take care of us
in far-flung places --
in far-flung places --
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来在遥远的地方保护我们，
03:59
taking money away from them
is not an efficient use of our resources,
is not an efficient use of our resources,
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从他们那拿走资金并不是
使用资源的有效方式，
使用资源的有效方式，
04:03
especially if it's going to build a ...
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特别是当为了建造一个——
04:07
you know, I always say
it's a fourth-century solution
it's a fourth-century solution
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我把这个形容为四世纪的解决方案，
04:10
to a 21st-century problem.
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不是二十一世纪的。
04:14
And the reality is,
what we should be focusing on
what we should be focusing on
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实际上，我们应该关注的是
04:17
is some of the other root causes
of this problem,
of this problem,
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这个问题的某些根本原因，
04:20
and many of your speakers today
have talked about that.
have talked about that.
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如今很多发言人都讲到了这个。
04:23
Some of those key root problems
are violence, lack of economic opportunity
are violence, lack of economic opportunity
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一些关键的根本问题包括
暴力行为，就业机会的匮乏
暴力行为，就业机会的匮乏
04:29
and extreme poverty,
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和极端的贫穷，
04:31
specifically, in the Northern Triangle:
El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras.
El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras.
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特别是在北三角形：
萨尔瓦多、危地马拉和洪都拉斯。
萨尔瓦多、危地马拉和洪都拉斯。
04:35
We should be working --
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我们应该努力——
04:38
AM: I was going to ask
what you would recommend
what you would recommend
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安妮：我是打算问你，你会建议
04:40
United States government does
to address the underlying,
to address the underlying,
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美国政府如何解决
04:44
what we call push factors, or root causes
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这三个中美洲国家的底层问题，
04:46
in those three countries
in Central America?
in Central America?
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也就是我们所说的
推动因素或者根本原因的？
推动因素或者根本原因的？
04:49
WH: One of the things I learned
as an undercover officer in the CIA
as an undercover officer in the CIA
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威尔：在我做卧底的时候
我学到的东西之一就是
我学到的东西之一就是
04:53
is be nice with nice guys
and tough with tough guys.
and tough with tough guys.
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对好人友好，
对野蛮人强硬。
对野蛮人强硬。
04:55
And one of the principles
of being nice with nice guys
of being nice with nice guys
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而对好人友好的原则之一是
04:58
is to strengthen our alliances.
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要加强我们的联盟。
05:01
We have a number of programs
currently in these three countries
currently in these three countries
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现在在这三个国家
我们有很多项目，
我们有很多项目，
05:05
that USAID and the State Department
is doing to address this violence issue.
is doing to address this violence issue.
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USAID（美国国际开发署）和国务院
正在致力于解决暴力问题。
正在致力于解决暴力问题。
05:11
And we know, in El Salvador,
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正如我们所知，在萨尔瓦多，
05:12
one of the problems was
that the police were corrupt.
that the police were corrupt.
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问题之一是警察腐败。
05:15
And so we've worked with the Salvadorians
to purge the police,
to purge the police,
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所以我们正与萨尔瓦多人
一起清理警队，
一起清理警队，
05:20
rehire new folks,
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雇佣新人，
05:22
use community policing tactics.
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施行社区警务策略。
05:26
These are tactics the men and women
in the United States of America
in the United States of America
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这些策略是美国的男男女女
05:31
and police forces
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和警察部队
05:32
use every single day.
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每天使用的。
05:34
And when we did this
in certain communities,
in certain communities,
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当我们在某些社区实行时，
猜猜发生了什么？
05:36
guess what happened?
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05:37
We saw a decrease in the violence
that was happening in those communities.
that was happening in those communities.
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我们在这些社区看见了
暴力的减少。
暴力的减少。
05:41
And then we also saw
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而且之后我们也看见了
05:42
a decrease in the number of people
that were leaving those areas
that were leaving those areas
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那些曾试图离开那块地方
05:45
to try to come
to the United States illegally.
to the United States illegally.
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并想非法进入美国的人数在减少。
05:48
So it's a fraction of the cost
to solve a problem there,
to solve a problem there,
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所以这是在最终
到达我们的边界之前，
到达我们的边界之前，
05:52
before it ultimately reaches our border.
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解决问题的成本的一部分。
05:55
And one of the reasons
that you have violence and crime
that you have violence and crime
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而有暴力和犯罪问题的原因之一
05:59
is political corruption
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就是警察腐败
06:01
and the lack of central governments
to protect its citizens.
to protect its citizens.
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和缺少中央政府对公民的保护。
06:05
And so this is something
we should be continuing to work on.
we should be continuing to work on.
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所以我们应该继续进行下去。
06:08
We shouldn't be decreasing
the amount of money that we have
the amount of money that we have
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我们不应该减少我们正在运送到
06:12
that we're sending to these countries.
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这些国家的资金数量。
06:13
I actually think
we should be increasing it.
we should be increasing it.
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实际上我认为
我们应该提高资金量。
我们应该提高资金量。
06:15
I believe the first thing --
we should have done this months ago --
we should have done this months ago --
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我相信，在几个月前
我们就应该做的第一件事
我们就应该做的第一件事
06:19
is select a special representative
for the Northern Triangle.
for the Northern Triangle.
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就是为北三角区
选择一位特别的代表。
选择一位特别的代表。
06:22
That's a senior diplomat
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一位高级外交官，
06:24
that's going to work to make sure
we're using all of our levers of power
we're using all of our levers of power
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可以确保我们使用所有级别的能力
06:29
to help these three countries,
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帮助这三个国家，
06:32
and then that we're doing it
in a coordinated effort.
in a coordinated effort.
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然后我们再结合全体的力量进行。
06:34
This is not just a problem
for the United States and Mexico,
for the United States and Mexico,
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这不只是美国和墨西哥的问题，
06:37
this is a problem for the entire
western hemisphere.
western hemisphere.
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这是整个西半球的问题。
06:40
So, where is the Organization
of American States?
of American States?
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所以，美洲国家组织在哪里？
06:42
Where is the International
Development Bank?
Development Bank?
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国际发展银行在哪里？
06:44
We should be having a collective plan
to address these root causes.
to address these root causes.
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我们应该有一个集体计划
来解决这些根本原因。
来解决这些根本原因。
06:49
And when you talk about violence,
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而当我们谈论暴力，
06:51
a lot of times, we talk
about these terrible gangs like MS-13.
about these terrible gangs like MS-13.
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很多时候，我们讨论的是
那些可怕的帮派，例如 MS-13.
那些可怕的帮派，例如 MS-13.
06:56
But it's also violence like
women being beaten by their husbands.
women being beaten by their husbands.
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但是这也包括像
妇女被丈夫家暴。
妇女被丈夫家暴。
07:01
And they have nobody else to go to,
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而且她们没有其它地方可去，
07:04
and they are unable to deal
with this current problem.
with this current problem.
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她们无法解决当前的问题。
07:07
So these are the types of issues
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所以对于这类问题，
07:10
that we should be increasing
our diplomacy,
our diplomacy,
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我们应该增强我们的外交，
07:13
increasing our economic development aid.
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提高我们的经济发展援助。
07:16
AM: Please, I want to take you now
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安妮：我现在想带你
07:18
from thinking about the root causes
in Central America
in Central America
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从思考中美洲的根本原因转移到
07:21
to thinking about the separation
of children and families
of children and families
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思考在美国出现的
07:24
in the United States.
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儿童与家人分离的问题。
07:26
Starting in April 2018,
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自 2018 年四月份起，
07:28
the Trump administration began
a no-tolerance policy
a no-tolerance policy
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特朗普政府开始对在美国
07:32
for immigrants, people seeking
refugee status, asylum
refugee status, asylum
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寻求难民身份庇护的移民人员
07:36
in the United States.
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发起了一个零容忍策略。
07:37
And that led to the separation
of 2,700 children
of 2,700 children
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这个程序实行的第一年就导致了
07:41
in the first year
that that program was run.
that that program was run.
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2700 个儿童与家人的分离。
07:44
Now, I want to address this with you,
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现在，我想和你谈谈这个，
07:46
and I want to separate it up front
into two different conversations.
into two different conversations.
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而且我想把这个分成
两个不同的对话。
两个不同的对话。
07:51
One of the things
that the administration did
that the administration did
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政府做的事情之一
07:53
was file legal court papers,
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1379
是提交了合法法庭文件，
07:55
saying that one of the primary
purposes of the separations
purposes of the separations
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阐述这些分离的主要目的之一
07:59
was to act as a deterrent
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是为了对来美国的人们
08:01
against people coming
to the United States.
to the United States.
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起威慑作用。
08:05
And I want to talk for a moment
about that from a moral perspective
about that from a moral perspective
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我想花点时间
从道德的角度聊一下，
从道德的角度聊一下，
08:09
and to get your views.
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然后了解你的意见。
08:13
WH: We shouldn't be doing it,
period. It's real simple.
period. It's real simple.
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威尔：我们不应该这样做，
就这样，非常简单。
就这样，非常简单。
08:17
And guess what, it wasn't a deterrent.
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你们猜怎么着，那并不是威慑。
08:19
You only saw an increase
in the amount of illegal immigration.
in the amount of illegal immigration.
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非法移民数量反而在增多。
08:23
And when you're sitting,
debating a strategy,
debating a strategy,
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当我们坐着讨论策略时，
08:26
if somebody comes up with the idea
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如果某个人提出
08:30
of snatching a child
out of their mother's arms,
out of their mother's arms,
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把孩子从母亲怀抱中夺走的想法，
08:33
you need to go back to the drawing board.
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你们应该回到最初重新开始。
08:36
This is not what the United States
of America stands for,
of America stands for,
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这种想法不是美国所代表的，
08:40
this is not a Republican
or a Democrat or independent thing.
or a Democrat or independent thing.
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也不是共和党、民主党
或独立党的东西。
或独立党的东西。
08:43
This is a human decency thing.
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这事关人类尊严。
08:46
And so, using that strategy,
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2539
所以，实行那个策略，
08:49
it didn't achieve the ultimate purpose.
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并没有实现最终的目的。
08:51
And ultimately, the amount
of research that is done
of research that is done
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而最终，许多研究证明，
孩子的拘禁，
孩子的拘禁，
08:56
and the impact that
the detention of children has --
the detention of children has --
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尤其是超过 21 天的拘禁，
08:59
especially if it's over 21 days --
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对于他们的成长和未来
09:01
has on their development and their future
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2983
所造成的影响
09:04
is disastrous.
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是灾难性的。
09:05
So we shouldn't be trying to detain
children for any more than 21 days,
children for any more than 21 days,
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所以我们不应该尝试
扣留孩子超过 21 天，
扣留孩子超过 21 天，
09:09
and we should be getting children,
if they're in our custody,
if they're in our custody,
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我们不应该去扣留，
如果他们在我们的监护下，
如果他们在我们的监护下，
09:12
we should be taking care of them humanely,
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我们应该人道的照顾他们，
09:14
and making sure they're with people
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确保他们跟可以为他们
09:16
that can provide them a safe
and loving environment.
and loving environment.
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4078
提供有安全环境的人呆在一起。
09:20
AM: I would challenge you
even on the 21-day number,
even on the 21-day number,
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安妮：我甚至想质疑
你 21 天这个数字，
你 21 天这个数字，
09:23
but for the purposes of this conversation,
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但是为了这个谈话的目的，
09:26
I want to follow up
on something you just said,
on something you just said,
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我想继续追问一些你刚刚说的，
就是扣留孩子既是错误的，
09:28
which is both that it's wrong
to detain children,
to detain children,
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2881
09:31
and that it's not effective.
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2143
也是无效的。
09:33
So the question, then, is why
does the administration continue to do it,
does the administration continue to do it,
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所以问题是，
为什么政府继续这样做，
为什么政府继续这样做，
09:37
when we've seen 900 additional children
separated from their parents
separated from their parents
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自 2018 年夏季我们看见了
又有 900 个孩子
又有 900 个孩子
09:41
since the summer of 2018?
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2285
离开了他们的父母？
09:43
Why is this happening?
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1467
为什么还在发生？
09:46
WH: Well, that's something
that you'd have to ultimately
that you'd have to ultimately
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威尔：这是你最终需要
问政府的事。
09:49
ask the administration.
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1167
这些问题我也一直在问。
09:50
These are questions that I've been asking.
193
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2007
09:52
The Tornillo facility is in my district.
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托尼洛设施（扣留移民人员的场所）
就在我的辖区。
就在我的辖区。
09:55
These are buildings that are not
designed to hold anybody
designed to hold anybody
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6907
这些建筑不是设计来容纳任何人
10:02
for multiple days,
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1425
很多天的，
10:03
let alone children.
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1439
更别说孩子了。
10:05
We should be making sure
that if they are in our custody --
that if they are in our custody --
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593679
3522
我们应该确保，
如果他们在我们的监护下——
如果他们在我们的监护下——
10:09
a lot of times for
the uncompanied children,
the uncompanied children,
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3034
对于无人陪伴的孩子，
有很多次
有很多次
10:12
we don't have a ...
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2120
我们没有 ……
10:14
we don't know of a patron or a family
member in the United States,
member in the United States,
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5277
我们不知道他们任何在美国的
资助人或者家庭成员，
资助人或者家庭成员，
10:19
and we should make sure
that they're in facilities
that they're in facilities
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2660
而且我们需要确保
在那里的孩子
在那里的孩子
10:22
where they're able to go to school
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1641
能够去学校，
10:24
and have proper food and health care.
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2865
有适当的食物和医疗保健。
10:26
And if we're able to find
a sponsor or family member,
a sponsor or family member,
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3172
如果我们能为他们找到
一个资助人或者家庭成员，
一个资助人或者家庭成员，
10:30
let's get them into that custody,
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2254
我们会让他们等待
10:32
while they're waiting
for their immigration court case.
for their immigration court case.
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3818
移民案子的同时对孩子进行监护。
10:36
That's the other issue here.
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1600
这里我们又有了另一个问题。
10:37
When you have a backlog of cases --
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1799
当我们有案件积压——
10:39
I think it's now 900,000 cases
that are backlogged --
that are backlogged --
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4271
我想现在有
90 万件案子积压——
90 万件案子积压——
10:44
we should be able to do
an immigration hearing
an immigration hearing
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我们应该可以在九个月内
10:46
within nine months.
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1257
进行一个移民听证。
10:47
I think most of the legal community
thinks that is enough time
thinks that is enough time
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3430
我认为大部分的法律界人士
觉得这段时间足够
觉得这段时间足够
10:51
to do something like this,
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1415
去做这样的事情，
10:52
so that we can facilitate
whether someone, an individual,
whether someone, an individual,
215
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5870
这样我们能够促成一个人
10:58
is able to stay in the United States
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1740
是留在美国
11:00
or they're going to have to be returned
back to their home country,
back to their home country,
217
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3151
或者被遣返回自己的国家的决定，
而不需要在这个地方待五年。
11:03
rather than being in this limbo
for five years.
for five years.
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2318
11:05
AM: If we think about
the asylum system today,
the asylum system today,
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653982
2540
安妮：如果我们考虑
现在的庇护系统，
现在的庇护系统，
11:08
where people are coming and saying
that they have a credible threat,
that they have a credible threat,
220
656546
3523
当人们来到这儿说
他们正面对可信的威胁，
他们正面对可信的威胁，
11:12
that they will be persecuted back home,
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660093
2016
也就是他们将被遣送回家，
11:14
and we think about the fact
that on average,
that on average,
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2150
从事实上考虑，
11:16
it's about two years for someone
to get an asylum hearing,
to get an asylum hearing,
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3103
平均需要等待两年
才能进行庇护听证会，
才能进行庇护听证会，
11:19
that many people are not represented
as they go through that process,
as they go through that process,
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4355
很多人因为要经过那个流程
而无法出现，
而无法出现，
11:23
it makes me think about something
225
671813
1587
这让我思考
11:25
that they say in the health care
space all the time,
space all the time,
226
673424
2432
人们一直说到的医疗保健领域，
11:27
which is that every system
is perfectly designed
is perfectly designed
227
675880
2647
每一个系统都是为了
它所要得到的结果
它所要得到的结果
11:30
to get the results it gets.
228
678551
2177
而设计的。
11:32
And so as you think about this
229
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1436
所以当你考虑
11:34
and think about how we would
redesign this system
redesign this system
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4175
我们要如何重新设计这个系统，
11:38
to not do what we're doing,
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686411
1442
不再做现在我们做的事情，
11:39
which is years and years
of detention and separations and hardship
of detention and separations and hardship
232
687877
5173
就是年复一年的
扣押、分离、痛苦，
扣押、分离、痛苦，
11:45
for people seeking --
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1201
当了人们寻找——
11:46
and again, asylum being a lawful
United States government process --
United States government process --
234
694299
4462
重申一下，需求庇护是
合法的美国政府流程——
合法的美国政府流程——
11:50
for people seeking
to enter our country lawfully.
to enter our country lawfully.
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3500
为了人们寻找机会
合法进入我们的国家。
合法进入我们的国家。
11:54
What should we do?
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1200
我们应该做什么？
11:56
WH: I tried to increase
by four billion dollars
by four billion dollars
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2730
威尔：我试过将
美国卫生及公共服务部资金
美国卫生及公共服务部资金
11:59
the amount of resources that HHS has
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3203
提高 40 亿美元，
12:02
in order to specifically deal,
ultimately, with children.
ultimately, with children.
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3794
来特别为孩子服务。
12:06
I think we need more immigration judges
in order to process these cases,
in order to process these cases,
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5175
我认为我们需要更多的移民法官
来处理这些案子，
来处理这些案子，
12:11
and I think we need to ensure
that folks can get representation.
that folks can get representation.
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5087
而且我认为我们需要确保
他们能够得到法律代表。
他们能够得到法律代表。
12:17
I've been able to work with a number
of lawyers up and down the border
of lawyers up and down the border
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725009
4518
我一直在和一些律师
在边境内外工作，
在边境内外工作，
12:21
to make sure they are being able
to get access to the folks
to get access to the folks
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4429
确保他们可以接触到
12:26
that are having these problems.
244
734004
2707
那些有这些问题的人。
12:28
And so this is something
that we should be able to design.
that we should be able to design.
245
736735
3729
所以这些事情是
我们应该可以设计的。
我们应该可以设计的。
12:32
And ultimately, when it comes to children,
246
740488
2563
最终，当涉及孩子时，
12:35
we should be doing everything we can
when they're in our custody,
when they're in our custody,
247
743075
3180
我们可以在监护他们的时候，
尽一切可能
尽一切可能
12:38
in order to take care of them.
248
746279
2240
照顾他们。
12:41
AM: So I have two more questions for you
249
749030
1928
安妮：在让你回去工作之前
我还有两个问题要问你。
12:42
before I'm going to let you
go back to work.
go back to work.
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750982
2055
12:45
The first is about our focus
in the United States
in the United States
251
753061
4254
第一是关于移民问题，
12:49
on the questions of immigration.
252
757339
1849
美国人的关注点。
12:51
Because if you look
at some of the statistics,
at some of the statistics,
253
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2183
因为如果你看一些数据，
12:53
you see that of people
who are undocumented
who are undocumented
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761419
2984
会看见那些在美国的
12:56
in the United States,
255
764427
1309
无证移民，
12:57
the majority of people
have overstayed on visas,
have overstayed on visas,
256
765760
3508
大部分都是签证过期逗留，
13:01
they haven't come through the border.
257
769292
1804
而不是从边境过来的。
13:03
If you look at the people
who try to enter the country
who try to enter the country
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771120
2759
如果你看那些
在恐怖分子监视名单上，
在恐怖分子监视名单上，
13:05
who are on the terrorist watch list,
259
773903
1806
试图进入美国的人，
13:07
they enter overwhelmingly
through the airports
through the airports
260
775733
2971
他们绝大部分是从机场进入的，
13:10
and not through the border.
261
778728
1317
而不是从边境。
13:12
If we look at drugs
coming into the United States,
coming into the United States,
262
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2341
如果我们看看今天讨论的
一个主要部分，
一个主要部分，
13:14
which has been a huge part
of this conversation,
of this conversation,
263
782434
2278
进入美国的毒品，
13:16
the vast majority of those drugs
come through our ports
come through our ports
264
784736
3278
大部分的毒品从港口
13:20
and through other points of entry,
265
788038
2182
和其它入口进入，
13:22
not through backpacks
on people crossing the border.
on people crossing the border.
266
790244
3562
而不是由穿越边境的人
藏在背包里带来。
藏在背包里带来。
13:25
So the thing I always ask
267
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1262
所以我一直问的，
13:27
and I always worry about with government,
268
795116
2126
也是我对于政府感到担忧的，
13:29
is that we focus so much on one thing,
269
797266
3357
是我们过多关注在一件事上。
13:32
and my question for you
is whether we are focused
is whether we are focused
270
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3184
我的问题是，在全国范围内，
13:35
in this conversation nationally
about the border,
about the border,
271
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2303
我们时时刻刻
13:38
every day and every minute of every day,
272
806182
2609
都在谈论边境问题，
13:40
whether we're looking
completely in the wrong direction.
completely in the wrong direction.
273
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3542
是不是我们完全选错了方向？
13:46
WH: I would agree with your premise.
274
814021
2159
威尔：我同意你的前提。
13:48
When you have --
275
816537
1150
当你——
13:49
let's start with the economic benefits.
276
817711
1874
让我从经济利益说起。
13:51
When you have 3.6 percent unemployment,
277
819609
2108
当你有 3.6% 的失业率，
13:53
what does that mean?
278
821741
1167
意味着什么？
13:54
That means you need folks
in every industry,
in every industry,
279
822932
2135
这意味着每个行业都需要人，
无论是农业还是人工智能。
13:57
whether it's agriculture
or artificial intelligence.
or artificial intelligence.
280
825091
2509
13:59
So why aren't we streamlining
legal immigration?
legal immigration?
281
827624
2969
所以为什么我们
不简化合法移民的流程？
不简化合法移民的流程？
14:02
We should be able
to make this market based
to make this market based
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我们应该将让它顺应市场需求，
14:05
in order to have folks come in
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鼓励人们来到这儿，
14:07
and be productive members of our society.
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成为我们社会里有生产力的一员。
14:10
When it comes to the drug issue
you're talking about,
you're talking about,
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当说到我们讨论的毒品问题，
14:13
yes, it's in our ports of entry,
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是的，毒品是从入境口岸来的，
14:14
but it's also coming in to our shores.
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但是也有些来自我们的海岸。
14:16
Coast Guard is only able to action
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海岸警卫队只能
14:19
25 percent of the known
intelligence they have
intelligence they have
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对进入我们国家的毒品里
已知情报的 25%
已知情报的 25%
14:22
on drugs coming into our country.
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进行针对性的行动。
14:25
The metric that we should
be measuring [is]
be measuring [is]
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我们应该衡量的指标
14:28
are we seeing a decrease of deaths
from overdose from drugs overseas,
from overdose from drugs overseas,
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是我们看见因为服用海外毒品
致死的人数的减少，
致死的人数的减少，
14:33
are we seeing a decrease
in illegal immigration?
in illegal immigration?
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是我们看见非法移民的减少，
14:37
It's not how many miles of fencing
that we have ultimately built.
that we have ultimately built.
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不是我们最终建了多长的篱笆。
14:42
And so we have benefited
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而且在过去几十年
14:44
from the brain drain
of every other country
of every other country
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我们已经从其它国家的人才流失
14:46
for the last couple of decades.
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受益。
14:48
I want to see that continue,
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我想看到这个趋势继续下去，
14:49
and I want to see that continue
with the hardworking drain.
with the hardworking drain.
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我也想看到辛苦工作的人
源源不断的来到美国。
源源不断的来到美国。
14:52
And I can sell you this:
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而且我可以告诉你们：
14:53
at last Congress, Pete Aguilar,
a Democrat from California, and I
a Democrat from California, and I
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在上一次国会会议上，来自加州的
民主党人皮特·阿吉拉尔，和我
民主党人皮特·阿吉拉尔，和我
14:58
had a piece of legislation
called the USA Act:
called the USA Act:
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提出了一项立法，称为:
15:01
strong border security,
streamline legal immigration,
streamline legal immigration,
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美国法——更强的边境安全，
简化合法移民流程，
简化合法移民流程，
15:04
fix DACA -- 1.2 million kids who have
only known the United States of America
only known the United States of America
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修复《儿童入境暂缓计划》——
120万已经只把美国当作家的
120万已经只把美国当作家的
15:09
as their home --
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孩子们，
或者我应该说年轻的男孩和女孩，
15:10
these kids, or I should say
young men and women,
young men and women,
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15:12
they are already Americans,
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1301
他们已经是美国人，
15:14
let's not have them go through
any more uncertainty
any more uncertainty
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3906
我们不要让他们再经历不确定性，
15:18
and make that ultimately happen.
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不要让那发生。
15:20
We had 245 people that were willing
to sign this bill into law,
to sign this bill into law,
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我们有 245 人已经愿意
将这个法案签署进法律中，
将这个法案签署进法律中，
15:24
it wasn't allowed to come forward
under a Republican speaker,
under a Republican speaker,
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但这个无法在共和党
发言人的言辞中出现，
发言人的言辞中出现，
15:28
and also the current Democratic speaker
hasn't brought this bill
hasn't brought this bill
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而且现在民主党发言人也没有
15:31
through in something
that we would be able to pass.
that we would be able to pass.
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将这个法案带入到可能通过的地方。
15:34
AM: So I want to close,
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安妮： 最后，我想
15:36
and you are, perhaps, most famous --
I don't know if that's fair --
I don't know if that's fair --
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你可能是最有名的——
不知道这么说是不是合适——
不知道这么说是不是合适——
但是你和贝托·奥罗克一起
15:41
but you took a road trip
with Beto O'Rourke
with Beto O'Rourke
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2299
15:43
from your district to Washington, DC,
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2654
从你的辖区前往华盛顿特区，
15:46
and you've become known
for reaching across the aisle
for reaching across the aisle
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你已经因为跨越党派界线和
介入这些两党对话
介入这些两党对话
15:48
and engaging in these
bipartisan conversations.
bipartisan conversations.
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3222
变得被大众所熟知。
15:51
And one of the things
I've seen you say repeatedly
I've seen you say repeatedly
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而且我看见你
今天反复说的一件事是
今天反复说的一件事是
15:54
is to talk about how we are all united.
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讨论我们如何团结在一起。
15:58
And I think, when we think
about the language of immigration
about the language of immigration
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3001
我认为，当我们谈论移民语言，
16:01
and we start hearing words
about enemies and militarization,
about enemies and militarization,
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4250
我们开始听见关于
敌人和军事化的言论，
敌人和军事化的言论，
16:05
I think the real question is:
How do we convince all Americans
How do we convince all Americans
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我认为真正的问题是：
我们如何让所有美国人信服
我们如何让所有美国人信服
16:10
to understand what you say
that more unites us than divides us?
that more unites us than divides us?
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并明白你说的话更多是在
团结我们，而不是分裂？
团结我们，而不是分裂？
16:16
WH: Crisscrossing a district like mine
that's truly 50-50 --
that's truly 50-50 --
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2954
威尔：我的辖区
党派人数是一半一半——
党派人数是一半一半——
一半的民主党，
一半的共和党，
一半的共和党，
16:19
50 percent Democrat,
50 percent Republican,
50 percent Republican,
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2009
16:21
it's been very clear to me
that way more unites us than divides us.
that way more unites us than divides us.
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3902
这对我来说很清楚，
我们应该更团结，而不是分裂。
我们应该更团结，而不是分裂。
16:25
And if we focus on those things
that we agree on,
that we agree on,
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而且如果关注我们同意的事情，
16:27
we'll all be better off.
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1341
我们都会做出更好的决策。
16:28
And I'm not going to get
a perfect attendance award
a perfect attendance award
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2905
我不会因为去教堂
16:31
for going to church,
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1191
而得到全勤奖，
16:33
but I do remember when Jesus
was in the Second Temple
was in the Second Temple
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3210
但是我记得当耶稣在第二圣殿，
16:36
and the Pharisees asked him
what's the most important commandment,
what's the most important commandment,
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984296
3130
法利赛人问他，
最重要的诫命是什么，
最重要的诫命是什么，
16:39
and he said to "Love thy Lord God
with all your heart, mind and soul."
with all your heart, mind and soul."
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他说：“用你的心，
思想和灵魂爱你的主。”
思想和灵魂爱你的主。”
但是人们忘了他也说过：
“同样重要的是，
“同样重要的是，
16:42
But people forget he also said,
"Equally as important,
"Equally as important,
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2961
16:45
is to love thy neighbor like thyself."
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2102
要像爱自己一样爱身边的人。”
16:47
And if we remember that
and realize what it would mean,
and realize what it would mean,
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4169
如果我们记得
而且知道它是什么意思，
而且知道它是什么意思，
16:52
and what you would
have to be going through
have to be going through
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2016
能想象你需要经历什么
16:54
to be living in a situation
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2325
才让你狠心决定把孩子
16:56
that you may send your child
on a 3,000-mile perilous journey,
on a 3,000-mile perilous journey,
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送上三千英里险恶旅程的境地，
17:01
because that's what you think
the only thing for their future,
the only thing for their future,
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1009522
3492
因为你认为这是他们未来的唯一出路，
17:05
the only thing that you can do
to make sure their future is bright,
to make sure their future is bright,
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3150
是你唯一能确保他们前途光明的出路。
17:08
if we all remember that situation,
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如果我们记得那种状况，
17:10
and think what we would do
in that situation,
in that situation,
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3169
想象一下我们会在那种状况下做什么，
17:13
I think we'd also be better off.
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我想我们都会做出更好的决策。
17:15
AM: Thank you, Congressman.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
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安妮： 谢谢你，议员先生。
非常感谢你今晚的参与。
非常感谢你今晚的参与。
（掌声）
17:19
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Will Hurd - PoliticianCongressman Will Hurd represents the 23rd District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving constituents across 29 counties and two time zones from San Antonio to El Paso.
Why you should listen
A San Antonio native and Texas A&M Computer Science graduate, Congressman Will Hurd was an undercover officer in the CIA working on national and cybersecurity for nearly a decade. Since his election to Congress in 2014, he has focused on delivering bipartisan results for the 800,000 Texans he calls his "bosses" by working with anyone, regardless of politics and party. Texas Monthly and Politico Magazine have both dubbed him "the Future of the GOP."
Will Hurd | Speaker | TED.com
Anne Milgram - Criminal justice reformer
Anne Milgram is committed to using data and analytics to fight crime.
Why you should listen
Anne Milgram is focused on reforming systems through smart data, analytics and technology. She is currently a Professor of Practice and Distinguished Scholar in Residence at New York University School of Law, where she is building a Criminal Justice Innovation Lab, dedicated to using data and technology to transform the American criminal justice system. She also teaches seminars on criminal justice policy and human trafficking. Milgram began her career as a criminal prosecutor, serving in state, local and federal prosecution offices. She then became the Attorney General of the State of New Jersey, where she served as the Chief Law Enforcement Officer for the State and oversaw the Camden Police Department.
Though her work, Milgram seeks to bring the best of the modern world -- data, technology and analytics -- to bear in an effort to transform outdated systems and practices. Milgram is centered on creating a paradigm shift in how we think about innovation and reform in the criminal justice system and beyond.
Milgram graduated summa cum laude from Rutgers University and holds a Master of Philosophy in social and political theory from the University of Cambridge. She received her law degree from New York University School of Law.
Anne Milgram | Speaker | TED.com