TED Salon: Border Stories
Will Hurd: A wall won't solve America's border problems
威爾‧赫爾德；安妮‧米爾格拉姆: 一堵牆無法解決美國的邊境問題
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「從東海岸到西海岸建一座的 30 英尺高的水泥建築，是保護邊界最昂貴且最無效的方法。」國會議員威爾‧赫爾德這麼說。赫爾德是一名來自德州的共和黨員，他的選區跨 2 個時區，並涵蓋了 820 英里長的美墨邊界。在與前州檢察長安妮‧米爾格拉姆的視訊訪談中，身在華盛頓特區的威爾德討論了美國政府的邊界政策，還有具爭議性的拘留和拆散親子的作法，並指出了能讓邊界的未來更美好的措施。(Recorded at the TED World Theater in New York on September 10, 2019)
Will Hurd - Politician
Congressman Will Hurd represents the 23rd District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving constituents across 29 counties and two time zones from San Antonio to El Paso. Full bioAnne Milgram - Criminal justice reformer
Anne Milgram is committed to using data and analytics to fight crime. Full bio
Congressman Will Hurd represents the 23rd District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving constituents across 29 counties and two time zones from San Antonio to El Paso. Full bioAnne Milgram - Criminal justice reformer
Anne Milgram is committed to using data and analytics to fight crime. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Anne Milgram: Congressman,
I was about to introduce you
I was about to introduce you
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安妮米爾格拉姆：
議員，我正要介紹你，
議員，我正要介紹你，
以及說些——
00:15
and say a little more --
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威爾赫爾德：
嘿，安妮。你好嗎？
嘿，安妮。你好嗎？
00:16
Will Hurd: Hey, Anne. How are you?
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安：嗨，你好嗎？
非常感謝你今晚的參與。
非常感謝你今晚的參與。
00:18
AM: Hi, how are you doing?
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
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00:21
We're so lucky to have you here with us.
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我們很幸運能邀請到你。
00:24
I've already explained
that you're actually in Washington
that you're actually in Washington
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我已經向大家解釋過
你現在在華盛頓工作。
00:26
because you're working.
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我也正要告訴大家，
00:28
And I was about to tell folks
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00:29
that you represent
the 23rd district of Texas.
the 23rd district of Texas.
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你代表的是德州的第 23 區。
00:33
But maybe you could tell us
a little bit about your district
a little bit about your district
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但能否請你介紹一下你的選區，
00:36
and describe it for us.
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向我們描述一下 。
00:39
WH: Sure, my district in Southwest Texas
is 29 counties, two time zones,
is 29 counties, two time zones,
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威：好的，我的選區位於
德州西南部，有 29 個郡，
德州西南部，有 29 個郡，
跨兩個時區。
從伊格爾帕斯一路到艾爾帕索，
涵蓋了 820 英里長的邊界線 。
涵蓋了 820 英里長的邊界線 。
00:45
820 miles of border
from Eagle Pass, Texas
from Eagle Pass, Texas
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00:49
all the way to El Paso.
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00:51
It takes 10 and a half hours to drive
across my district at 80 miles an hour,
across my district at 80 miles an hour,
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以這區大部分地方
每小時 80 英里的開車速限，
每小時 80 英里的開車速限，
00:55
which is the speed limit
in most of the district.
in most of the district.
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要花 10 個半小時才能
橫跨整個區。
橫跨整個區。
00:58
And I found out a couple of weekends ago,
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不過幾週前我才發現 ，
並非全區都是這個速限。
01:00
it's not the speed limit
in all the district.
in all the district.
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（笑聲）
01:02
(Laughter)
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01:03
It's a 71-percent Latino district,
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這區 71% 的居民是拉丁裔，
01:07
and it's the district that
I've been representing
I've been representing
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我一直都是代表這個區的議員，
01:10
for now my third term in Congress.
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在國會中已經做到第三任了。
01:13
And when you think
about the issue of the border,
about the issue of the border,
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如果要談邊界議題，
01:16
I have more border
than any other member of Congress.
than any other member of Congress.
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我的邊界比任何其他
國會議員的邊界都還要長。
國會議員的邊界都還要長。
01:19
I spent nine and a half years
as an undercover officer in the CIA,
as an undercover officer in the CIA,
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我在中情局做了
9 年半的臥底探員，
9 年半的臥底探員，
01:23
chasing bad people all across the country.
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在全國各地追捕壞人。
01:26
So when it comes to securing our border,
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所以，若要談邊界的安全，
01:28
it's something I know a little bit about.
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我確實略知一二。
01:31
AM: One of the things I learned recently
which I hadn't known before
which I hadn't known before
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安：我最近得知
我以前不知道的事情之一
我以前不知道的事情之一
01:34
is that your district
is actually the size, I think,
is actually the size, I think,
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就是你的區的面積，我想，
01:37
of the state of Georgia?
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和喬治亞州差不多大？
01:40
WH: That's right.
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威：沒錯。
01:41
It's larger than 26 states,
roughly the size of the state of Georgia.
roughly the size of the state of Georgia.
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它比 26 個州還大，
大約和喬治亞州一樣大。
大約和喬治亞州一樣大。
01:45
So it's pretty big.
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所以說它相當大。
01:48
AM: So as an expert in national security
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安：身為國安專家，
01:50
and as a member of Congress,
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以及國會議員，
01:52
you've been called upon
to think about issues
to think about issues
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你曾被邀請去討論
01:54
related to immigration,
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和移民相關的議題，
01:56
and in recent years,
particularly about the border wall.
particularly about the border wall.
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而近幾年，尤其是有關邊界圍牆。
02:00
What is your reaction
to President Trump's statement
to President Trump's statement
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你怎麼看川普總統的聲明？
02:03
that we need a big, beautiful wall
that would stretch across our border,
that would stretch across our border,
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他說我們需要沿著邊界
建一道又大又美，
建一道又大又美，
02:07
and at 18 to 30 feet high?
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大約 18 到 30 英呎高的圍牆。
02:11
WH: I've been saying this since I first
ran for Congress back in 2009,
ran for Congress back in 2009,
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威：自從 2009 年第一次
競選國會議員，我就一直在說，
競選國會議員，我就一直在說，
02:15
this is not a new topic,
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這不是個新議題，
02:16
that building a 30-foot-high
concrete structure
concrete structure
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打造一個 30 英呎高的水泥建築，
02:19
from sea to shining sea
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從大西洋到太平洋，
02:20
is the most expensive
and least effective way
and least effective way
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是最昂貴且最沒效益的
保護邊界的方法。
保護邊界的方法。
02:23
to do border security.
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02:25
There are parts of the border
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在邊界的某些地區，
02:27
where Border Patrol's
response time to a threat
response time to a threat
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邊界巡邏隊對於威脅的反應時間，
02:31
is measured in hours to days.
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需要數小時甚至數天。
02:33
If your response time
is measured in hours to days,
is measured in hours to days,
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如果你的反應時間
要用小時甚至天來計算，
要用小時甚至天來計算，
02:37
then a wall is not a physical barrier.
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那麼圍牆就不是一個實質的障礙。
02:40
We should be having technology
along the border,
along the border,
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我們應該延著邊界佈署科技，
02:42
we should have operation
control of our border,
control of our border,
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我們應該對邊界做操作管控，
02:46
which means we know everything
that's going back and forth across it.
that's going back and forth across it.
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也就是說，我們要知道
所有穿過邊界的人事物。
所有穿過邊界的人事物。
02:50
We can do a lot of that with technology.
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用科技我們是可以做到的。
02:52
We also need more folks
within our border patrol.
within our border patrol.
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我們的邊境巡邏隊也需要更多人手。
02:55
But in addition to doing all this,
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但除此之外，
02:57
one of the things we should be able to do
is streamline legal immigration.
is streamline legal immigration.
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我們應該要做的另一件事，
就是提高合法移民的效率。
就是提高合法移民的效率。
03:02
If you're going to be
a productive member of our society,
a productive member of our society,
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如果你將成為我們社會中
有生產力的一員，
有生產力的一員，
03:05
let's get you here as quickly as possible,
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那我們就盡快讓你過來，
03:07
but let's do it legally.
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但要走合法管道。
03:08
And if we're able to streamline that,
then you're going to see
then you're going to see
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如果我們能提高
這方面的效率，你會看到
這方面的效率，你會看到
03:11
some of the pressures
relieved along our border
relieved along our border
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我們的邊界少了一些壓力，
03:14
and allow men and women in Border Patrol
to focus on human trafficking
to focus on human trafficking
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這能讓邊境巡邏隊
更專注於處理人口販賣，
更專注於處理人口販賣，
03:19
and drug-trafficking
organizations as well.
organizations as well.
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以及運毒組織。
03:22
AM: Congressman,
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安：議員，
03:25
there's also been a conversation
nationally about using emergency funds
nationally about using emergency funds
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全國也一直在討論動用緊急資金，
03:30
to build the border wall
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來建造邊界圍牆，
03:31
and taking those funds
from the United States military.
from the United States military.
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並且將軍方的資金用於此，
03:35
What has your position been on that issue?
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對於此議題，你的立場是？
03:38
WH: I'm one of the few Republicans up here
that has opposed that effort.
that has opposed that effort.
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威：我是這裡少數反對
那麼做的共和黨員。
那麼做的共和黨員。
03:43
We are just now rebuilding our military,
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我們現在正在重建我們的軍隊，
03:46
and taking funds away from making sure
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拿走資金，就無法確保
03:48
that our brothers and sisters,
our wives and our husbands
our wives and our husbands
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我們的兄弟姐妹，
我們的妻子先生，
我們的妻子先生，
03:52
have the training and equipment they need
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能夠得到他們所需的訓練和裝備，
03:55
in order to take care of us
in far-flung places --
in far-flung places --
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以能在遙遠的地方守護我們——
03:59
taking money away from them
is not an efficient use of our resources,
is not an efficient use of our resources,
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從他們那裡拿錢，
並不是個有效運用資源的方式，
並不是個有效運用資源的方式，
04:03
especially if it's going to build a ...
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特別是還把錢拿來建造……
04:07
you know, I always say
it's a fourth-century solution
it's a fourth-century solution
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我會說這是用 4 世紀的方法，
04:10
to a 21st-century problem.
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來解決 21 世紀的問題。
04:14
And the reality is,
what we should be focusing on
what we should be focusing on
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現實是，我們應該把焦點放在
04:17
is some of the other root causes
of this problem,
of this problem,
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造成這個問題的其他根本原因，
04:20
and many of your speakers today
have talked about that.
have talked about that.
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你們今天的很多講者
都談到這個部分。
都談到這個部分。
04:23
Some of those key root problems
are violence, lack of economic opportunity
are violence, lack of economic opportunity
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關鍵的根本問題包括暴力、失業
04:29
and extreme poverty,
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和極端貧窮，
04:31
specifically, in the Northern Triangle:
El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras.
El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras.
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特別是在北三角：薩爾瓦多、
瓜地馬拉和宏都拉斯。
瓜地馬拉和宏都拉斯。
04:35
We should be working --
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我們應該要著手——
04:38
AM: I was going to ask
what you would recommend
what you would recommend
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安：我想問的是，你會建議
04:40
United States government does
to address the underlying,
to address the underlying,
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美國政府用什麼方式來處理
04:44
what we call push factors, or root causes
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中美洲那三個國家的
04:46
in those three countries
in Central America?
in Central America?
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人口外移的推力或者根本原因？
04:49
WH: One of the things I learned
as an undercover officer in the CIA
as an undercover officer in the CIA
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威：我在中情局擔任臥底探員時
學到的其中一件事
學到的其中一件事
04:53
is be nice with nice guys
and tough with tough guys.
and tough with tough guys.
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就是對好人好一點，
對兇悍的人兇悍一點。
對兇悍的人兇悍一點。
04:55
And one of the principles
of being nice with nice guys
of being nice with nice guys
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對好人好一點的原則之一
04:58
is to strengthen our alliances.
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就是鞏固我們的結盟國家。
05:01
We have a number of programs
currently in these three countries
currently in these three countries
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我們目前有很多針對
這三個國家的專案，
這三個國家的專案，
05:05
that USAID and the State Department
is doing to address this violence issue.
is doing to address this violence issue.
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美國國際開發署和國務院
正在致力解決暴力問題。
正在致力解決暴力問題。
05:11
And we know, in El Salvador,
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我們知道，在薩爾瓦多，
05:12
one of the problems was
that the police were corrupt.
that the police were corrupt.
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其中一個問題是警方腐敗。
05:15
And so we've worked with the Salvadorians
to purge the police,
to purge the police,
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所以我們已經在和薩爾瓦多
合作整肅警察，
合作整肅警察，
05:20
rehire new folks,
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僱用新人，
05:22
use community policing tactics.
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採用社區警務策略。
05:26
These are tactics the men and women
in the United States of America
in the United States of America
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這些策略是美國人民
05:31
and police forces
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和警察每天在用的。
05:32
use every single day.
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05:34
And when we did this
in certain communities,
in certain communities,
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當我們在某些社區這麼做時，
05:36
guess what happened?
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猜猜結果如何？
05:37
We saw a decrease in the violence
that was happening in those communities.
that was happening in those communities.
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我們發現那些社區中的暴力減少了。
05:41
And then we also saw
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接著，我們也看到
05:42
a decrease in the number of people
that were leaving those areas
that were leaving those areas
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試圖從那些地方
非法進入美國的人數下降了。
非法進入美國的人數下降了。
05:45
to try to come
to the United States illegally.
to the United States illegally.
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05:48
So it's a fraction of the cost
to solve a problem there,
to solve a problem there,
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所以在問題來到我們的邊界以前，
05:52
before it ultimately reaches our border.
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花一點成本就能先
將問題在當地解決。
將問題在當地解決。
05:55
And one of the reasons
that you have violence and crime
that you have violence and crime
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而會有暴力和犯罪的原因之一，
05:59
is political corruption
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就是政治腐敗，
06:01
and the lack of central governments
to protect its citizens.
to protect its citizens.
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以及中央政府無法保護人民。
06:05
And so this is something
we should be continuing to work on.
we should be continuing to work on.
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所以這是我們應該持續做的。
06:08
We shouldn't be decreasing
the amount of money that we have
the amount of money that we have
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我們不應該減少
我們對這些國家的金援。
06:12
that we're sending to these countries.
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06:13
I actually think
we should be increasing it.
we should be increasing it.
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我其實認為應該要增加金額。
06:15
I believe the first thing --
we should have done this months ago --
we should have done this months ago --
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我認為，第一步——
我們幾個月前就該這麼做了——
我們幾個月前就該這麼做了——
06:19
is select a special representative
for the Northern Triangle.
for the Northern Triangle.
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是要針對北三角選出一位特別代表。
06:22
That's a senior diplomat
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要是一位資深的外交官，
06:24
that's going to work to make sure
we're using all of our levers of power
we're using all of our levers of power
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他的工作是要確保我們使用各種力量
06:29
to help these three countries,
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來協助這三個國家，
06:32
and then that we're doing it
in a coordinated effort.
in a coordinated effort.
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且要用同心協力的方式來進行。
06:34
This is not just a problem
for the United States and Mexico,
for the United States and Mexico,
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這不只是美國和墨西哥的問題，
06:37
this is a problem for the entire
western hemisphere.
western hemisphere.
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這是整個西半球的問題。
06:40
So, where is the Organization
of American States?
of American States?
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所以，美洲國家組織在哪裡？
06:42
Where is the International
Development Bank?
Development Bank?
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美洲開發銀行在哪裡？
06:44
We should be having a collective plan
to address these root causes.
to address these root causes.
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我們應該要有一個共同計畫
來處理這些根本原因。
來處理這些根本原因。
06:49
And when you talk about violence,
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我們談到暴力時，
06:51
a lot of times, we talk
about these terrible gangs like MS-13.
about these terrible gangs like MS-13.
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通常我們想到的是可怕的幫派，
像是 MS-13。
06:56
But it's also violence like
women being beaten by their husbands.
women being beaten by their husbands.
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但暴力也包括女性被丈夫家暴。
07:01
And they have nobody else to go to,
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她們沒有求助的管道，
07:04
and they are unable to deal
with this current problem.
with this current problem.
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她們無法處理這個問題。
07:07
So these are the types of issues
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針對這幾類問題，
07:10
that we should be increasing
our diplomacy,
our diplomacy,
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我們應該增加外交，
07:13
increasing our economic development aid.
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增加經濟開發援助。
07:16
AM: Please, I want to take you now
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安：我現在想要
07:18
from thinking about the root causes
in Central America
in Central America
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把話題從中美洲的根本原因
07:21
to thinking about the separation
of children and families
of children and families
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帶到兒童和家人
在美國被拆散的現象。
在美國被拆散的現象。
07:24
in the United States.
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07:26
Starting in April 2018,
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1945
2018 年 4 月開始，
07:28
the Trump administration began
a no-tolerance policy
a no-tolerance policy
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川普政府就展開了一項零容忍政策，
07:32
for immigrants, people seeking
refugee status, asylum
refugee status, asylum
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對象是在美國的移民、
尋求難民身分和政治庇護的人。
07:36
in the United States.
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07:37
And that led to the separation
of 2,700 children
of 2,700 children
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該計畫實施的第一年，
07:41
in the first year
that that program was run.
that that program was run.
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就導致 2,700 名兒童被拆散。
07:44
Now, I want to address this with you,
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現在我想要和你談談這件事，
07:46
and I want to separate it up front
into two different conversations.
into two different conversations.
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我想要先把它分成
兩個不同的話題來談。
兩個不同的話題來談。
07:51
One of the things
that the administration did
that the administration did
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政府做的其中一件事
07:53
was file legal court papers,
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就是向法院提出法律文件，
07:55
saying that one of the primary
purposes of the separations
purposes of the separations
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4415
說明拆散他們的主要目的之一
07:59
was to act as a deterrent
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2133
是要對打算來美國的人
08:01
against people coming
to the United States.
to the United States.
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產生威懾作用。
08:05
And I want to talk for a moment
about that from a moral perspective
about that from a moral perspective
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我想要花點時間
從道德的觀點來談這件事，
從道德的觀點來談這件事，
08:09
and to get your views.
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也想聽聽你的看法。
08:13
WH: We shouldn't be doing it,
period. It's real simple.
period. It's real simple.
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威：我們不該這麼做，
就這樣。就這麼簡單。
就這樣。就這麼簡單。
08:17
And guess what, it wasn't a deterrent.
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你知道嗎，那並沒有威懾作用。
08:19
You only saw an increase
in the amount of illegal immigration.
in the amount of illegal immigration.
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你只會發現
非法移民的數量增加。
非法移民的數量增加。
08:23
And when you're sitting,
debating a strategy,
debating a strategy,
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當你坐下來討論策略時，
08:26
if somebody comes up with the idea
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3087
如果有人提出一個想法，
08:30
of snatching a child
out of their mother's arms,
out of their mother's arms,
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是要把孩子從母親的懷中奪走，
08:33
you need to go back to the drawing board.
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這個想法必須作廢。
08:36
This is not what the United States
of America stands for,
of America stands for,
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這不是美國精神，
08:40
this is not a Republican
or a Democrat or independent thing.
or a Democrat or independent thing.
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這無關你是共和黨、
民主黨還是獨立人士。
民主黨還是獨立人士。
08:43
This is a human decency thing.
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2587
這關乎人道尊嚴。
08:46
And so, using that strategy,
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2539
所以，採用那種策略
08:49
it didn't achieve the ultimate purpose.
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2404
並沒有達到終極目標。
08:51
And ultimately, the amount
of research that is done
of research that is done
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最終，根據研究，
08:56
and the impact that
the detention of children has --
the detention of children has --
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2896
拘留對兒童的影響——
08:59
especially if it's over 21 days --
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2278
特別是拘留超過 21 天——
09:01
has on their development and their future
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2983
對他們的發展和未來
會造成災難性的影響。
09:04
is disastrous.
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1153
09:05
So we shouldn't be trying to detain
children for any more than 21 days,
children for any more than 21 days,
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3383
所以我們不應該
拘留兒童超過 21 天，
拘留兒童超過 21 天，
09:09
and we should be getting children,
if they're in our custody,
if they're in our custody,
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如果我們有拘留兒童，
09:12
we should be taking care of them humanely,
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2166
我們應該要給他們人道的照顧，
09:14
and making sure they're with people
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1914
確保他們身邊的人
09:16
that can provide them a safe
and loving environment.
and loving environment.
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4078
能提供他們安全和有愛的環境。
09:20
AM: I would challenge you
even on the 21-day number,
even on the 21-day number,
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安：我連 21 天
這個數字都想質疑，
這個數字都想質疑，
09:23
but for the purposes of this conversation,
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2626
但就這段對話而言，
09:26
I want to follow up
on something you just said,
on something you just said,
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2222
我想要探討你剛剛說的，
09:28
which is both that it's wrong
to detain children,
to detain children,
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2881
你剛說拘留兒童是不對的事，
09:31
and that it's not effective.
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2143
且沒有效果。
09:33
So the question, then, is why
does the administration continue to do it,
does the administration continue to do it,
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3922
那麼問題是，
為什麼政府持續這麼做？
為什麼政府持續這麼做？
09:37
when we've seen 900 additional children
separated from their parents
separated from their parents
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從 2018 年夏天開始，
09:41
since the summer of 2018?
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2285
又有 900 名兒童被與父母被拆散。
09:43
Why is this happening?
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571696
1467
為什麼這件事仍在發生？
09:46
WH: Well, that's something
that you'd have to ultimately
that you'd have to ultimately
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3097
威：這個問題最終
09:49
ask the administration.
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1167
你得要問政府。
09:50
These are questions that I've been asking.
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578475
2007
我也一直在問這些問題。
09:52
The Tornillo facility is in my district.
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3008
托尼洛拘留營就在我的選區。
09:55
These are buildings that are not
designed to hold anybody
designed to hold anybody
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6907
這些建築物的設計
並不是用來拘留人好幾天的，
10:02
for multiple days,
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1425
10:03
let alone children.
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1439
更不用說拘留兒童了。
10:05
We should be making sure
that if they are in our custody --
that if they are in our custody --
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593679
3522
我們應該要確保
他們在我們的監護之下——
他們在我們的監護之下——
10:09
a lot of times for
the uncompanied children,
the uncompanied children,
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3034
通常，沒有人陪伴的兒童，
10:12
we don't have a ...
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2120
我們沒有……
10:14
we don't know of a patron or a family
member in the United States,
member in the United States,
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5277
我們不知道他們在美國
有沒有庇護者或家人，
有沒有庇護者或家人，
10:19
and we should make sure
that they're in facilities
that they're in facilities
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2660
我們應該要確保他們待在營區時，
10:22
where they're able to go to school
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1641
能讓他們上學、
10:24
and have proper food and health care.
204
612077
2865
有妥善的食物和健康照護的機構。
10:26
And if we're able to find
a sponsor or family member,
a sponsor or family member,
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3172
如果我們能夠找到贊助人或家人，
10:30
let's get them into that custody,
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2254
那就先讓他們回到
贊助人或家人的監護，
贊助人或家人的監護，
10:32
while they're waiting
for their immigration court case.
for their immigration court case.
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3818
讓他們在那邊
等待移民法庭案件審理。
等待移民法庭案件審理。
10:36
That's the other issue here.
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1600
不過那是另一個議題了。
10:37
When you have a backlog of cases --
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1799
當你已經積壓了一堆案件，
10:39
I think it's now 900,000 cases
that are backlogged --
that are backlogged --
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4271
我想目前已經積壓了
90 萬件案件——
90 萬件案件——
10:44
we should be able to do
an immigration hearing
an immigration hearing
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2585
我們應該能在 9 個月內
舉辦移民聽證會。
舉辦移民聽證會。
10:46
within nine months.
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1257
10:47
I think most of the legal community
thinks that is enough time
thinks that is enough time
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3430
我想，大部分的
法律團體都會認為
法律團體都會認為
這樣的時間是足夠做這種事的，
10:51
to do something like this,
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1415
10:52
so that we can facilitate
whether someone, an individual,
whether someone, an individual,
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5870
這樣我們就能加速知道哪些人
10:58
is able to stay in the United States
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1740
是否能夠留在美國，
11:00
or they're going to have to be returned
back to their home country,
back to their home country,
217
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3151
哪些人會被遣返回他的祖國，
11:03
rather than being in this limbo
for five years.
for five years.
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2318
而不是讓他們生活在
未知的處境 5 年。
未知的處境 5 年。
11:05
AM: If we think about
the asylum system today,
the asylum system today,
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2540
安：想想現今的庇護制度，
11:08
where people are coming and saying
that they have a credible threat,
that they have a credible threat,
220
656546
3523
人們會跑來說
他們遇到實際的威脅，
他們遇到實際的威脅，
11:12
that they will be persecuted back home,
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660093
2016
如果返國他們會被迫害，
11:14
and we think about the fact
that on average,
that on average,
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2150
而平均來說，
11:16
it's about two years for someone
to get an asylum hearing,
to get an asylum hearing,
223
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3103
大概要花 2 年的時間，
才能取得庇護聽證會的機會，
才能取得庇護聽證會的機會，
11:19
that many people are not represented
as they go through that process,
as they go through that process,
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667434
4355
很多人在經歷這個過程時，
並沒有法律代表，
並沒有法律代表，
11:23
it makes me think about something
225
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1587
這讓我想到
11:25
that they say in the health care
space all the time,
space all the time,
226
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2432
在醫療照護圈子裡常常在說的事，
11:27
which is that every system
is perfectly designed
is perfectly designed
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2647
就是每個體制都是
為了它想得到的結果而設計的。
11:30
to get the results it gets.
228
678551
2177
11:32
And so as you think about this
229
680752
1436
所以，想想這一點，
11:34
and think about how we would
redesign this system
redesign this system
230
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4175
想想我們能如何重新設計體制，
11:38
to not do what we're doing,
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1442
不要去做現在我們在做的事，
11:39
which is years and years
of detention and separations and hardship
of detention and separations and hardship
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687877
5173
那就是年復一年的
拘留、分離和困境，
拘留、分離和困境，
11:45
for people seeking --
233
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1201
對象都是在尋求——
11:46
and again, asylum being a lawful
United States government process --
United States government process --
234
694299
4462
再說一次，庇護是合法的
美國政府流程——
美國政府流程——
11:50
for people seeking
to enter our country lawfully.
to enter our country lawfully.
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3500
對象都是在尋求合法
進入我們國家的人。
進入我們國家的人。
11:54
What should we do?
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702309
1200
我們該怎麼做？
11:56
WH: I tried to increase
by four billion dollars
by four billion dollars
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2730
威：我試圖為
美國衛生及公共服務部
美國衛生及公共服務部
11:59
the amount of resources that HHS has
238
707254
3203
增加 40 億美金的資源，
12:02
in order to specifically deal,
ultimately, with children.
ultimately, with children.
239
710481
3794
來特別處理兒童的問題。
12:06
I think we need more immigration judges
in order to process these cases,
in order to process these cases,
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5175
我想我們需要更多移民法官
來處理這些案件，
來處理這些案件，
12:11
and I think we need to ensure
that folks can get representation.
that folks can get representation.
241
719498
5087
我想我們也需要確保
這些人能有法律代表。
這些人能有法律代表。
12:17
I've been able to work with a number
of lawyers up and down the border
of lawyers up and down the border
242
725009
4518
我一直往來邊界與一些律師合作，
12:21
to make sure they are being able
to get access to the folks
to get access to the folks
243
729551
4429
確保他們能夠接觸到
12:26
that are having these problems.
244
734004
2707
有這些問題的人。
12:28
And so this is something
that we should be able to design.
that we should be able to design.
245
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3729
這些應該是我們能夠設計的。
12:32
And ultimately, when it comes to children,
246
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2563
最終，談到兒童，
12:35
we should be doing everything we can
when they're in our custody,
when they're in our custody,
247
743075
3180
當他們在我們的監護下時，
我們應該竭盡全力，
我們應該竭盡全力，
12:38
in order to take care of them.
248
746279
2240
好好照顧他們。
12:41
AM: So I have two more questions for you
249
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1928
安：我還有兩個問題想請教你，
12:42
before I'm going to let you
go back to work.
go back to work.
250
750982
2055
然後讓你回去工作。
12:45
The first is about our focus
in the United States
in the United States
251
753061
4254
第一個問題是關於美國
12:49
on the questions of immigration.
252
757339
1849
在移民問題上的焦點。
12:51
Because if you look
at some of the statistics,
at some of the statistics,
253
759212
2183
如果你去看一些統計數據，
12:53
you see that of people
who are undocumented
who are undocumented
254
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2984
你會發現，在美國，
12:56
in the United States,
255
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1309
非法移民的人，
12:57
the majority of people
have overstayed on visas,
have overstayed on visas,
256
765760
3508
大部分是簽證過期後滯留的人，
13:01
they haven't come through the border.
257
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1804
他們並不是從邊界進來的。
13:03
If you look at the people
who try to enter the country
who try to enter the country
258
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2759
如果你去看試圖進入美國的人，
13:05
who are on the terrorist watch list,
259
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1806
且是在恐怖份子名單上的人，
13:07
they enter overwhelmingly
through the airports
through the airports
260
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2971
他們幾乎都是從機場進入，
13:10
and not through the border.
261
778728
1317
而不是邊界。
13:12
If we look at drugs
coming into the United States,
coming into the United States,
262
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2341
如果我們去看進入美國的毒品，
13:14
which has been a huge part
of this conversation,
of this conversation,
263
782434
2278
這也是這個議題中很重要的一部分，
13:16
the vast majority of those drugs
come through our ports
come through our ports
264
784736
3278
大部分的毒品是從港口
13:20
and through other points of entry,
265
788038
2182
和其他入境口進來的，
13:22
not through backpacks
on people crossing the border.
on people crossing the border.
266
790244
3562
而不是藏在邊界穿越者的背包進入的。
13:25
So the thing I always ask
267
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1262
所以，我總是在問，
13:27
and I always worry about with government,
268
795116
2126
且政府很讓我擔心的一點，
13:29
is that we focus so much on one thing,
269
797266
3357
就是我們太聚焦在單一焦點上，
13:32
and my question for you
is whether we are focused
is whether we are focused
270
800647
3184
我想問你的問題是，
我們是否太聚焦？
我們是否太聚焦？
13:35
in this conversation nationally
about the border,
about the border,
271
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2303
全國都在談論邊界議題，
13:38
every day and every minute of every day,
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每天，每分鐘都在談論，
13:40
whether we're looking
completely in the wrong direction.
completely in the wrong direction.
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我們是否完全看錯方向？
13:46
WH: I would agree with your premise.
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威：我認同你的假設。
13:48
When you have --
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當你有——
13:49
let's start with the economic benefits.
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我們從經濟利益開始談起。
13:51
When you have 3.6 percent unemployment,
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當你有 3.6% 的失業率，
13:53
what does that mean?
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那代表什麼？
13:54
That means you need folks
in every industry,
in every industry,
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2135
那意味著，每個產業都缺人，
13:57
whether it's agriculture
or artificial intelligence.
or artificial intelligence.
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不論是農業或者人工智慧產業。
13:59
So why aren't we streamlining
legal immigration?
legal immigration?
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所以，為什麼我們
不提高合法移民的效率？
不提高合法移民的效率？
14:02
We should be able
to make this market based
to make this market based
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我們應該要能以市場為基礎
14:05
in order to have folks come in
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讓人進來，
14:07
and be productive members of our society.
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讓他們成為我們社會中
有產能的成員。
有產能的成員。
14:10
When it comes to the drug issue
you're talking about,
you're talking about,
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至於你說的毒品議題，
14:13
yes, it's in our ports of entry,
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是的，毒品是從入境口進來的，
14:14
but it's also coming in to our shores.
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但毒品也進入我們的海岸線了。
14:16
Coast Guard is only able to action
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海岸巡防隊只能針對
14:19
25 percent of the known
intelligence they have
intelligence they have
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25% 他們掌握的毒品情報採取行動。
14:22
on drugs coming into our country.
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14:25
The metric that we should
be measuring [is]
be measuring [is]
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我們應該衡量的標準是
14:28
are we seeing a decrease of deaths
from overdose from drugs overseas,
from overdose from drugs overseas,
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使用來自海外的毒品
過量而死的人數有下降嗎？
過量而死的人數有下降嗎？
14:33
are we seeing a decrease
in illegal immigration?
in illegal immigration?
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3629
非法移民的人數有下降嗎？
14:37
It's not how many miles of fencing
that we have ultimately built.
that we have ultimately built.
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5532
重點不是我們最終
建了多少英里的圍牆。
建了多少英里的圍牆。
14:42
And so we have benefited
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2064
幾十年來，
14:44
from the brain drain
of every other country
of every other country
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2015
我們一直受益於
14:46
for the last couple of decades.
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1507
其他國家的人才外流。
14:48
I want to see that continue,
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我希望這能持續下去，
14:49
and I want to see that continue
with the hardworking drain.
with the hardworking drain.
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我希望能持續看到努力的人才流入。
14:52
And I can sell you this:
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880783
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我可以跟各位說：
14:53
at last Congress, Pete Aguilar,
a Democrat from California, and I
a Democrat from California, and I
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4691
在上次國會會議中，
加州的民主黨議員皮特阿圭拉和我
14:58
had a piece of legislation
called the USA Act:
called the USA Act:
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2436
提出「美國法案」的立法：
15:01
strong border security,
streamline legal immigration,
streamline legal immigration,
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3350
強大的邊界安全，
高效率的合法移民，
高效率的合法移民，
15:04
fix DACA -- 1.2 million kids who have
only known the United States of America
only known the United States of America
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4730
修正「童年入境者暫緩遣返手續」
—— 有 120 萬名兒童，
—— 有 120 萬名兒童，
15:09
as their home --
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1174
知道的家只有美國——
15:10
these kids, or I should say
young men and women,
young men and women,
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這些兒童，或應該說
年輕男性和女性，
年輕男性和女性，
15:12
they are already Americans,
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1301
他們已經是美國人了，
15:14
let's not have them go through
any more uncertainty
any more uncertainty
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3906
我們別再讓他們經歷
更多的不確定性，
更多的不確定性，
15:18
and make that ultimately happen.
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906006
2111
不要讓他們最終被遣返。
15:20
We had 245 people that were willing
to sign this bill into law,
to sign this bill into law,
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4020
我們有 245 個人
願意簽署這個法案的立法，
願意簽署這個法案的立法，
15:24
it wasn't allowed to come forward
under a Republican speaker,
under a Republican speaker,
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3825
但共和黨的眾議院院長
不讓此法案提出，
不讓此法案提出，
15:28
and also the current Democratic speaker
hasn't brought this bill
hasn't brought this bill
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3802
目前民主黨的議長也沒有
15:31
through in something
that we would be able to pass.
that we would be able to pass.
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2674
將這個法案推往可以通過的方向。
15:34
AM: So I want to close,
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1625
安：我想要總結，
15:36
and you are, perhaps, most famous --
I don't know if that's fair --
I don't know if that's fair --
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你最有名的事件是——
我不知道這麼說是否公正——
我不知道這麼說是否公正——
15:41
but you took a road trip
with Beto O'Rourke
with Beto O'Rourke
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2299
但你和貝托歐洛克曾一起公路旅行，
15:43
from your district to Washington, DC,
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931414
2654
從你的轄區到華盛頓特區，
15:46
and you've become known
for reaching across the aisle
for reaching across the aisle
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2484
而你也因為跨越黨派
15:48
and engaging in these
bipartisan conversations.
bipartisan conversations.
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3222
以及參與兩黨對談而變得有名。
15:51
And one of the things
I've seen you say repeatedly
I've seen you say repeatedly
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2914
我看到你一直強調的，
15:54
is to talk about how we are all united.
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是我們都有相同之處。
15:58
And I think, when we think
about the language of immigration
about the language of immigration
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3001
我認為當我們想到關於移民的話題，
16:01
and we start hearing words
about enemies and militarization,
about enemies and militarization,
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949205
4250
我們會聽到關於敵人
和軍事化的字眼。
和軍事化的字眼。
16:05
I think the real question is:
How do we convince all Americans
How do we convince all Americans
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953479
4796
我認為真正的問題在於：
我們如何說服所有美國人
我們如何說服所有美國人
16:10
to understand what you say
that more unites us than divides us?
that more unites us than divides us?
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958299
4910
去了解你所說的，比起分歧，
我們有更多相同處。
我們有更多相同處。
16:16
WH: Crisscrossing a district like mine
that's truly 50-50 --
that's truly 50-50 --
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964274
2954
威：劃分像我這樣的選區，
那真的是一半一半——
那真的是一半一半——
16:19
50 percent Democrat,
50 percent Republican,
50 percent Republican,
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967252
2009
一半民主黨，一半共和黨，
16:21
it's been very clear to me
that way more unites us than divides us.
that way more unites us than divides us.
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969285
3902
我深知，我們的相同處
遠比我們的分歧還多。
遠比我們的分歧還多。
16:25
And if we focus on those things
that we agree on,
that we agree on,
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2318
如果我們能專注在
我們都認同的事情上，
我們都認同的事情上，
16:27
we'll all be better off.
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975553
1341
我們都能變得更好。
16:28
And I'm not going to get
a perfect attendance award
a perfect attendance award
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2905
在上教堂這件事上，
我不會得全勤獎，
我不會得全勤獎，
16:31
for going to church,
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979847
1191
16:33
but I do remember when Jesus
was in the Second Temple
was in the Second Temple
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981062
3210
但我記得耶穌在第二聖殿裡，
16:36
and the Pharisees asked him
what's the most important commandment,
what's the most important commandment,
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984296
3130
法利賽人問祂，
哪一條誡命最重要？
哪一條誡命最重要？
16:39
and he said to "Love thy Lord God
with all your heart, mind and soul."
with all your heart, mind and soul."
335
987450
3365
祂說：「你要盡心、盡性、
盡意愛主－你的神」，
盡意愛主－你的神」，
16:42
But people forget he also said,
"Equally as important,
"Equally as important,
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2961
但人們忘了祂還說：「同樣重要的，
16:45
is to love thy neighbor like thyself."
337
993824
2102
是要愛人如愛己」。
16:47
And if we remember that
and realize what it would mean,
and realize what it would mean,
338
995950
4169
如果我們都能記得這點，
16:52
and what you would
have to be going through
have to be going through
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2016
並了解你要經歷
16:54
to be living in a situation
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1002183
2325
什麼樣的處境，
16:56
that you may send your child
on a 3,000-mile perilous journey,
on a 3,000-mile perilous journey,
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4966
才會讓你把你的孩子送上一段
3,000 英里的危險旅程，
3,000 英里的危險旅程，
17:01
because that's what you think
the only thing for their future,
the only thing for their future,
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1009522
3492
因為你認為這是為了他們的未來
唯一能做的事，
唯一能做的事，
17:05
the only thing that you can do
to make sure their future is bright,
to make sure their future is bright,
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3150
你唯一能做的，就是
確保他們有一個光明的未來。
確保他們有一個光明的未來。
17:08
if we all remember that situation,
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2087
如果我們都能想到那樣的處境，
17:10
and think what we would do
in that situation,
in that situation,
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3169
然後想想如果是我們，
我們會怎麼做？
我們會怎麼做？
17:13
I think we'd also be better off.
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1746
我想我們能夠變得更好。
17:15
AM: Thank you, Congressman.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
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1023905
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安：謝謝你，議員。
非常感謝你今晚的參與。
非常感謝你今晚的參與。
17:19
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Will Hurd - PoliticianCongressman Will Hurd represents the 23rd District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving constituents across 29 counties and two time zones from San Antonio to El Paso.
Why you should listen
A San Antonio native and Texas A&M Computer Science graduate, Congressman Will Hurd was an undercover officer in the CIA working on national and cybersecurity for nearly a decade. Since his election to Congress in 2014, he has focused on delivering bipartisan results for the 800,000 Texans he calls his "bosses" by working with anyone, regardless of politics and party. Texas Monthly and Politico Magazine have both dubbed him "the Future of the GOP."
Will Hurd | Speaker | TED.com
Anne Milgram - Criminal justice reformer
Anne Milgram is committed to using data and analytics to fight crime.
Why you should listen
Anne Milgram is focused on reforming systems through smart data, analytics and technology. She is currently a Professor of Practice and Distinguished Scholar in Residence at New York University School of Law, where she is building a Criminal Justice Innovation Lab, dedicated to using data and technology to transform the American criminal justice system. She also teaches seminars on criminal justice policy and human trafficking. Milgram began her career as a criminal prosecutor, serving in state, local and federal prosecution offices. She then became the Attorney General of the State of New Jersey, where she served as the Chief Law Enforcement Officer for the State and oversaw the Camden Police Department.
Though her work, Milgram seeks to bring the best of the modern world -- data, technology and analytics -- to bear in an effort to transform outdated systems and practices. Milgram is centered on creating a paradigm shift in how we think about innovation and reform in the criminal justice system and beyond.
Milgram graduated summa cum laude from Rutgers University and holds a Master of Philosophy in social and political theory from the University of Cambridge. She received her law degree from New York University School of Law.
Anne Milgram | Speaker | TED.com