TEDSalon 2006
Robert Thurman: We can be Buddhas
Bob Thurman kaže da možemo biti Bude
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U našem povezanom svijetu, možemo znati sve, bilo kad. I to masovno prosvjetljenje, kaže budistički učenjak Bob Thurman, naš je prvi korak prema prirodi Bude.
Robert Thurman - Buddhist scholar
The first American to be ordained a Tibetan Monk by the Dalai Lama, Robert A.F. Thurman is a scholar, author and tireless proponent of peace. Full bio
The first American to be ordained a Tibetan Monk by the Dalai Lama, Robert A.F. Thurman is a scholar, author and tireless proponent of peace. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:31
Thank you.
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Hvala.
00:35
And I feel like this whole evening has been very amazing to me.
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Osjećam kao da je cijela ova večer bila nevjerojatna.
00:39
I feel it's sort of like the Vimalakirti Sutra,
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Osjećam kao da je to Vimalakirti Sutra,
00:43
an ancient work from ancient India
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drevno djelo iz stare Indije,
00:46
in which the Buddha appears at the beginning and a whole bunch of people
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u kojem se Buda pojavljuje na početku i hrpa ljudi
00:52
come to see him from the biggest city in the area, Vaishali,
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dolazi vidjeti ga iz najvećeg grada u regiji, Vaisali,
00:56
and they bring some sort of jeweled parasols to make an offering to him.
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i donijeti mu neku vrstu draguljnog suncobrana.
01:00
All the young people, actually, from the city.
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Svi mladi ljudi, iz grada
01:03
The old fogeys don't come because they're mad at Buddha,
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– stariji ne dolaze jer su ljuti na Budu,
01:08
because when he came to their city he accepted --
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jer kada je došao u njihov grad prihvatio je –
01:10
he always accepts the first invitation that comes to him, from whoever it is,
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on uvijek prihvaća prvu pozivnicu koja mu dođe, od bilo koga da je,
01:14
and the local geisha, a movie-star sort of person,
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lokalne gejše, filmske zvijezde,
01:18
raced the elders of the city in a chariot and invited him first.
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koja je u kočiji prestigla starješine grada i pozvala ga prva.
01:21
So he was hanging out with the movie star, and of course they were grumbling:
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Družio se s filmskom zvijezdom, naravno gunđali su:
01:25
"He's supposed to be religious and all this.
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“On bi trebao biti religiozan i sve to.
01:27
What's he doing over there at Amrapali's house with all his 500 monks,"
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Što radi tamo u kući Amrapali sa svih njegovih 500 redovnika,”
01:32
and so on. They were all grumbling, and so they boycotted him.
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i tako dalje. Svi su gunđali, i bojkotirali su ga.
01:36
They wouldn't go listen to him.
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Ne bi ga otišli saslušati.
01:37
But the young people all came.
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Ali mladi ljudi su došli.
01:39
And they brought this kind of a jeweled parasol, and they put it on the ground.
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I donijeli su suncobran od dragulja, i postavili ga na zemlju.
01:43
And as soon as they had laid all these,
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Čim su to sve prostrli,
01:45
all their big stack of these jeweled parasols that they used to carry in ancient India,
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svu gomilu tih suncobrana koje su nosili u drevnoj Indiji,
01:50
he performed a kind of special effect which made it into a giant planetarium,
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on je obnašao vrste specijalnih efekta, stvorio je veliki planetarij,
01:57
the wonder of the universe. Everyone looked in that, and they saw in there
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čudo svijeta. Svi su to gledali, vidjeli su u tome
02:00
the total interconnectedness of all life in all universes.
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ukupnu međusobnu povezanost svih života u svim svemirima.
02:04
And of course, in the Buddhist cosmos there are millions and billions of planets
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Naravno, u budističkom kozmosu postoje milijuni i milijarde planeta
02:08
with human life on it,
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sa ljudskim životima,
02:10
and enlightened beings can see the life on all the other planets.
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prosvijetljena bića mogu vidjeti život na svim drugim planetima.
02:13
So they don't -- when they look out and they see those lights that you showed
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Kada pogledaju van i vide sva ta svjetla
02:16
in the sky -- they don't just see sort of pieces of matter burning
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na nebu, oni ne vide samo komadiće materije koja gori
02:20
or rocks or flames or gases exploding.
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ili kamenje ili plamen ili plinove koji eksplodiraju.
02:24
They actually see landscapes and human beings
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Oni zapravo vide obzore i ljudska bića
02:26
and gods and dragons and serpent beings and goddesses and things like that.
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i bogove i zmajeve i zmijolika bića i božice i slične stvari.
02:32
He made that special effect at the beginning
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Napravio je taj specijalni efekt na početku
02:34
to get everyone to think about interconnection
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kako bi naveo ostale da razmišljaju o povezanosti
02:37
and interconnectedness and how everything in life was totally interconnected.
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i međusobnoj povezanosti i kako je sve u životu potpuno povezano.
02:42
And then Leilei -- I know his other name -- told us about interconnection,
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Tada je Leilei – znam njegovo drugo ime – govorio nama o povezanosti,
02:50
and how we're all totally interconnected here,
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i kako smo svi potpuno povezani ovdje,
02:53
and how we've all known each other. And of course in the Buddhist universe,
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i kako svi znamo jedni druge. Naravno u budističkom svemiru,
02:56
we've already done this already billions of times in many, many lifetimes in the past.
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to smo učinili već milijardu puta, u mnogim prošlim životima.
03:01
And I didn't give the talk always. You did, and we had to watch you, and so forth.
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Nisam govorio uvijek. Ti jesi, mi smo te morali gledati, i tako dalje.
03:10
And we're all still trying to, I guess we're all trying to become TEDsters,
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Još uvijek pokušavamo. Još uvijek pokušavamo postati TED-ovci,
03:14
if that's a modern form of enlightenment.
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ako je to moderni oblik prosvjetljenja.
03:18
I guess so. Because in a way, if a TEDster relates to all the interconnectedness
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Mislim to. Budući da na neki način, TED-ovac se odnosi na sve međusobne povezanosti
03:22
of all the computers and everything, it's the forging of a mass awareness,
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svih računala i svega, tvori masovnu svijest,
03:28
of where everybody can really know everything
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gdje svatko može znati sve
03:30
that's going on everywhere in the planet.
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što se događa svagdje na planetu.
03:32
And therefore it will become intolerable --
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Postat će nepodnošljivo –
03:34
what compassion is, is where it will become intolerable for us,
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što je suosjećanje, postat će nepodnošljivo za nas,
03:38
totally intolerable that we sit here in comfort and in pleasure and enjoying
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potpuno nepodnošljivo što mi sjedimo ovdje u udobnosti i zadovoljstvu i uživajući
03:44
the life of the mind or whatever it is,
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umni život ili štogod je to,
03:46
and there are people who are absolutely riddled with disease
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a postoje ljudi koji su apsolutno protkani bolestima,
03:51
and they cannot have a bite of food and they have no place,
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nemaju komadić hrane i nemaju mjesta,
03:54
or they're being brutalized by some terrible person and so forth.
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ili ih napastuje neka užasna osoba i tako dalje.
03:57
It just becomes intolerable.
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Postaje nepodnošljivo.
03:59
With all of us knowing everything, we're kind of forced by technology
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Svi mi koji znamo sve, prisiljeni smo zbog tehnologije
04:05
to become Buddhas or something, to become enlightened.
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postati Buda ili nešto, postati prosvijetljeni.
04:09
And of course, we all will be deeply disappointed when we do.
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Naravno, svi ćemo biti duboko razočarani kada postanemo.
04:15
Because we think that because we are kind of tired of what we do,
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Mislimo da zbog toga što smo umorni od onoga što radimo,
04:22
a little bit tired, we do suffer.
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pomalo umorni, patimo.
04:24
We do enjoy our misery in a certain way.
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Uživamo u našoj muci na neki način.
04:27
We distract ourselves from our misery by running around somewhere,
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Odvlačimo se od naše bijede stalno trčeći negdje,
04:30
but basically we all have this common misery
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ali u osnovi svi zajedno imamo tu zajedničku bijedu
04:32
that we are sort of stuck inside our skins
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da smo zatočeni u našoj koži
04:35
and everyone else is out there.
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i da su svi ostali vani.
04:38
And occasionally we get together with another person stuck in their skin
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I povremeno se pronađemo sa drugom osobom koja je zatočena u njihovoj koži
04:41
and the two of us enjoy each other, and each one tries to get out of their own,
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i potom nas dvoje uživamo jedno u drugom, i svatko od nas pokušava izaći iz sebe,
04:46
and ultimately it fails of course, and then we're back into this thing.
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na kraju to ne uspije, naravno, i vratili smo se u ovu stvar.
04:50
Because our egocentric perception -- from the Buddha's point of view, misperception --
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Zbog naše egocentrične percepcije – sa Budinog stajališta –
04:56
is that all we are is what is inside our skin.
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sve što smo mi je ono što je unutar naše kože.
05:00
And it's inside and outside, self and other,
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To je iznutra i izvana, sebi i drugima,
05:03
and other is all very different.
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i drugo je sve veoma različito.
05:04
And everyone here is unfortunately carrying that habitual perception,
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Svima ovdje je nažalost normalno da imaju tu percepciju,
05:07
a little bit, right?
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pomalo, zar ne?
05:10
You know, someone sitting next to you in a seat -- that's OK because you're in a theater,
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Netko sjedi pokraj vas na sjedalu – to je OK jer ste u kazalištu,
05:13
but if you were sitting on a park bench and someone came up and sat that close to you,
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ali da sjedite u parku na klupi i netko dođe i sjedne tako blizu vama,
05:16
you'd freak out.
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poludjeli biste.
05:18
What do they want from me? Like, who's that?
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Što žele od mene? Tko je to?
05:21
And so you wouldn't sit that close to another person
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Vi ne biste sjeli tako blizu drugoj osobi
05:24
because of your notion that it's you versus the universe -- that's all Buddha discovered.
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zbog vašeg mišljenja da to nije u skladu sa svemirom – to je sve Buda otkrio.
05:30
Because that cosmic basic idea that it is us all alone, each of us,
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Ta osnovna kozmička ideja, to smo mi sve vrijeme, svatko od nas,
05:35
and everyone else is different,
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i svatko drugi je drugačiji,
05:38
then that puts us in an impossible situation, doesn't it?
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tada nas to stavlja u nemoguću situaciju, zar ne?
05:41
Who is it who's going to get enough attention from the world?
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Tko je to tko će dobiti dovoljno pažnje od svijeta?
05:44
Who's going to get enough out of the world?
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Tko će izvući dovoljno iz svijeta?
05:47
Who's not going to be overrun by an infinite number of other beings --
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Tko neće biti pregažen sa beskonačnim brojem drugih bića –
05:50
if you're different from all the other beings?
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ako ste drugačiji od svih drugih bića?
05:53
So where compassion comes is where you
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Suosjećanje dođe kada
05:57
surprisingly discover you lose yourself in some way:
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otkrijete da ste izgubili sebe na neki način:
06:02
through art, through meditation, through understanding, through knowledge actually,
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kroz umjetnost, meditaciju, razumijevanje, kroz znanje zapravo,
06:07
knowing that you have no such boundary,
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znajući da nemate granice,
06:09
knowing your interconnectedness with other beings.
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znajući svoju povezanost s drugim ljudima.
06:12
You can experience yourself as the other beings
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Možete sebe iskusiti kroz druga bića
06:15
when you see through the delusion of being separated from them.
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kada pogledate kroz zablude da ste bili razdvojeni od njih.
06:20
When you do that, you're forced to feel what they feel.
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Kada to učinite, prisiljeni ste osjećati što oni osjećaju.
06:23
Luckily, they say -- I still am not sure --
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Srećom, kažu – nisam još uvijek siguran –
06:27
but luckily, they say that when you reach that point because some people have said
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ali srećom, kažu da kada dosegnete tu točku jer su neki ljudi rekli
06:31
in the Buddhist literature, they say, "Oh who would really want to be compassionate?
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u budističkoj literaturi, rekli su, ooh, tko bi zapravo htio biti suosjećajan?
06:34
How awful! I'm so miserable on my own. My head is aching.
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Kako grozno! I sam sam nesretan. Boli me glava.
06:39
My bones are aching. I go from birth to death. I'm never satisfied.
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Kosti me bole. Idem od rođenja do smrti. Nikad nisam zadovoljan.
06:42
I never have enough, even if I'm a billionaire, I don't have enough.
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Nikad nemam dovoljno, iako sam milijarder nikad nemam dovoljno.
06:45
I need a hundred billion." So I'm like that.
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Trebam sto milijardi, takav sam.
06:48
Imagine if I had to feel even a hundred other people's suffering.
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Zamislite da bih morao osjetiti patnje samo stotinu ljudi.
06:54
It would be terrible.
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To bi bilo užasno.
06:56
But apparently, this is a strange paradox of life.
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Očito, to je čudan paradoks života.
06:59
When you're no longer locked in yourself,
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Kada više niste zaključani u sebe,
07:03
and as the wisdom or the intelligence or the scientific knowledge
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kako mudrost, inteligencija ili znanstveno znanje
07:06
of the nature of the world, that enables you to let your mind spread out,
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prirode svijeta, vam omogućuje da dopustite smo umu da se raširi,
07:14
and empathize, and enhance the basic human ability of empathizing,
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suosjeća, i pojača osnovnu ljudsku sposobnost suosjećanja,
07:18
and realizing that you are the other being,
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shvaćajući da ste vi drugo biće,
07:21
somehow by that opening, you can see the deeper nature of life. And you can,
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otvarajući se, možete vidjeti dublju prirodu života,
07:27
you get away from this terrible iron circle of I, me, me, mine,
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možete se maknuti od ovog užasnog željeznog kruga sebe, ja, ja, moje,
07:35
like the Beatles used to sing.
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kako su Beatlesi pjevali.
07:37
You know, we really learned everything in the '60s.
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Naučili smo dosta u 60-ima.
07:39
Too bad nobody ever woke up to it,
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Šteta što se nitko nije probudio,
07:43
and they've been trying to suppress it since then.
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pokušali su to potisnuti od tada.
07:45
I, me, me, mine. It's like a perfect song, that song. A perfect teaching.
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Ja, meni, mene, mog. Kao savršena pjesma, ta pjesma. Savršeno učenje.
07:50
But when we're relieved from that,
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Ali kada smo oslobođeni toga,
07:53
we somehow then become interested in all the other beings.
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postanemo zainteresirani drugim stvarima.
07:55
And we feel ourselves differently. It's totally strange.
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Osjećamo se drugačije. Čudno je.
07:59
It's totally strange.
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Potpuno je čudno.
08:01
The Dalai Lama always likes to say --
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Dalaj Lama voli reći –
08:04
he says that when you give birth in your mind to the idea of compassion,
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kada rodite u svome umu ideju suosjećanja,
08:09
it's because you realize that you yourself and your pains and pleasures
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tada kada shvatite da ste vi, i vaše muke i zadovoljstva,
08:13
are finally too small a theater for your intelligence.
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toliko mala predstava za vašu inteligenciju.
08:17
It's really too boring whether you feel like this or like that, or what, you know --
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Stvarno je dosadno osjećate li se vi ovako ili onako, ili, znate –
08:22
and the more you focus on how you feel, by the way, the worse it gets.
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što se više oslanjate na to kako se osjećate, postaje sve gore.
08:28
Like, even when you're having a good time,
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Čak i kada se zabavljate,
08:30
when is the good time over?
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kada prestane dobro vrijeme?
08:32
The good time is over when you think, how good is it?
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Dobro vrijeme prestane kada razmislite, koliko dobro je?
08:36
And then it's never good enough.
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I tada nikad nije dovoljno dobro.
08:39
I love that Leilei said that the way of helping those who are suffering badly
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Volim što je Leilei rekao da put pomaganja onima koji pate strašno
08:44
on the physical plane or on other planes is having a good time,
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na fizičkoj razini ili na drugim razinama, jest provoditi kvalitetno vrijeme,
08:49
doing it by having a good time.
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pomagati tako da provodite kvalitetno vrijeme.
08:51
I think the Dalai Lama should have heard that. I wish he'd been there to hear that.
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Dalaj Lama je trebao to čuti. Volio bih da je bio tamo da to čuje.
08:54
He once told me -- he looked kind of sad;
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Jednom mi je rekao – izgledao je tužno;
08:56
he worries very much about the haves and have-nots.
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on brine puno o imanju i ne imanju.
08:58
He looked a little sad, because he said, well, a hundred years ago,
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Izgledao je malo tužno, rekao je, prije 100 godina,
09:02
they went and took everything away from the haves.
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oduzeli su sve bogatima.
09:05
You know, the big communist revolutions, Russia and China and so forth.
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Znate, velika komunistička revolucija, Rusija i Kina i tako dalje.
09:08
They took it all away by violence,
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Uzeli su sve nasiljem,
09:10
saying they were going to give it to everyone, and then they were even worse.
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rekli su da će to dati svima, i tada se sve pogoršalo.
09:14
They didn't help at all.
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Nisu ništa pomogli.
09:16
So what could possibly change this terrible gap that has opened up in the world today?
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Što bi moglo promijeniti taj veliki jaz koji se stvorio danas u svijetu?
09:22
And so then he looks at me.
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Pogledao me.
09:24
So I said, "Well, you know, you're all in this yourself. You teach: it's generosity,"
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Rekao sam, “Znate, sami ste u ovom. Naučavate: to je velikodušnost,”
09:29
was all I could think of. What is virtue?
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bilo je sve što sam se mogao sjetiti. Što je vrlina?
09:32
But of course, what you said, I think the key to saving the world, the key to compassion
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Naravno, ključ spašavanja svijeta, ključ suosjećanja,
09:38
is that it is more fun.
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jest u više zabave.
09:42
It should be done by fun. Generosity is more fun. That's the key.
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Trebalo bi se više zabavljati. Velikodušnost je zabavna. To je ključ.
09:47
Everybody has the wrong idea. They think Buddha was so boring,
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Svi imaju krivu ideju. Misle da je Buda bio dosadan,
09:51
and they're so surprised when they meet Dalai Lama and he's fairly jolly.
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iznenade se kada upoznaju Dalaj Lamu a on je radostan.
09:55
Even though his people are being genocided --
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Iako je u njegovu narodu bio genocid –
09:57
and believe me, he feels every blow on every old nun's head,
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vjerujte mi, osjeća svaki udarac na svakoj glavi časne sestre,
10:02
in every Chinese prison. He feels it.
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u svakom kineskom zatvoru. Osjeća to.
10:05
He feels the way they are harvesting yaks nowadays.
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Osjeća način na koji skupljaju ljetinu danas.
10:08
I won't even say what they do. But he feels it.
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Ne želim ni reći što rade. Ali on to osjeća.
10:12
And yet he's very jolly. He's extremely jolly.
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Ipak je jako radostan. Ekstremno je radostan.
10:16
Because when you open up like that,
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Jer kada se tako otvorite,
10:19
then you can't just -- what good does it do to add being miserable with others' misery?
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tada ne možete samo – što dobroga donosi da dodajete svoju nesreću ostalim nesrećama?
10:25
You have to find some vision where you see how hopeful it is,
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Morate pronaći neki način da vidite kako je to puno nade,
10:28
how it can be changed.
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kako se može promijeniti.
10:30
Look at that beautiful thing Chiho showed us. She scared us with the lava man.
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Pogledajte tu lijepu stvar što nam je Chiho pokazala. Uplašila nas je sa čovjekom od lave.
10:34
She scared us with the lava man is coming,
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Uplašila nas je da čovjek od lave dolazi,
10:37
then the tsunami is coming,
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da tsunami dolazi,
10:39
but then finally there were flowers and trees, and it was very beautiful.
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ali na kraju tamo su bili cvijeće, drveće, bilo je jako lijepo.
10:45
It's really lovely.
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Zaista je lijepo.
10:47
So, compassion means to feel the feelings of others,
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Suosjećanje znači da osjećate osjećaje drugih,
10:53
and the human being actually is compassion.
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ljudsko biće zapravo je suosjećajno.
10:56
The human being is almost out of time.
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Ljudskom biću ponestaje vremena.
11:00
The human being is compassion because what is our brain for?
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Ljudsko biće je suosjećajno, za što je naš mozak?
11:04
Now, Jim's brain is memorizing the almanac.
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Jimov mozak je zapamtio almanah.
11:10
But he could memorize all the needs of all the beings that he is, he will, he did.
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Ali mogao bi zapamtiti sve potrebe svih bića koja on je, on hoće, on jest.
11:15
He could memorize all kinds of fantastic things to help many beings.
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Mogao bi zapamtiti svakakve fantastične stvari kako bi pomogao drugim bićima.
11:20
And he would have tremendous fun doing that.
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I pritom bi se zabavljao.
11:23
So the first person who gets happy,
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Prva osoba koja postane sretna,
11:25
when you stop focusing on the self-centered situation of, how happy am I,
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kada se prestanete fokusirati na egoističnu situaciju toga koliko ste sretni,
11:30
where you're always dissatisfied --
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kada ste uvijek nezadovoljni –
11:32
as Mick Jagger told us. You never get any satisfaction that way.
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Mick Jagger nam je rekao da tako ne dobivate nikakvo ispunjenje.
11:37
So then you decide, "Well, I'm sick of myself.
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Odlučite, dosta mi je sebe.
11:39
I'm going to think of how other people can be happy.
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Idem vidjeti kako drugi ljudi mogu biti sretni.
11:42
I'm going to get up in the morning and think,
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Ustat ću se ujutro i razmislit,
11:43
what can I do for even one other person, even a dog, my dog, my cat,
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što mogu učiniti barem za jednu osobu, barem za psa, mog psa, moju mačku,
11:47
my pet, my butterfly?"
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mog ljubimca, mog leptira.
11:50
And the first person who gets happy when you do that,
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Prva osoba koja postane sretna kada to učinite,
11:52
you don't do anything for anybody else, but you get happier, you yourself,
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ne učinite ništa drugo ni za koga drugog, ali ste sretniji, vi,
11:57
because your whole perception broadens
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jer vam se cijela percepcija proširi,
12:00
and you suddenly see the whole world and all of the people in it.
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odjednom vidite cijeli svijet i sve ljude u njemu.
12:04
And you realize that this -- being with these people --
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I shvatite – dok ste s tim ljudima –
12:06
is the flower garden that Chiho showed us.
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to je cvjetni vrt koji nam je Chiho pokazala.
12:08
It is Nirvana.
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To je Nirvana.
12:10
And my time is up. And I know the TED commandments.
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Moje vrijeme je isteklo. Znam TED zapovijedi.
12:12
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Thurman - Buddhist scholarThe first American to be ordained a Tibetan Monk by the Dalai Lama, Robert A.F. Thurman is a scholar, author and tireless proponent of peace.
Why you should listen
Tenzin Robert Thurman became a Tibetan monk at age 24. He's a professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist studies at Columbia University, and co-founder of Tibet House US, a nonprofit dedicated to the preservation and promotion of Tibetan civilization.
Thurman's focus is on the balance between inner insight and cultural harmony. In interpreting the teachings of Buddha, he argues that happiness can be reliable and satisfying in an enduring way without depriving others.
He has translated many Buddhist Sutras, or teachings, and written many books, recently taking on the topic of Anger for the recent Oxford series on the seven deadly sins. He maintains a podcast on Buddhist topics. And yes, he is Uma's dad.
Robert Thurman | Speaker | TED.com