TEDSalon 2006
Robert Thurman: We can be Buddhas
鲍勃. 瑟曼说:我们也能成佛
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在这个超链接的世界,我们可以在任何时间知道任何事情。佛教学者鲍勃. 瑟曼说,这个大众启蒙是我们走向佛性的第一步。
Robert Thurman - Buddhist scholar
The first American to be ordained a Tibetan Monk by the Dalai Lama, Robert A.F. Thurman is a scholar, author and tireless proponent of peace. Full bio
The first American to be ordained a Tibetan Monk by the Dalai Lama, Robert A.F. Thurman is a scholar, author and tireless proponent of peace. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:31
Thank you.
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谢谢。
00:35
And I feel like this whole evening has been very amazing to me.
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我觉得这整个晚上都让我感到非常惊喜。
00:39
I feel it's sort of like the Vimalakirti Sutra,
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我觉得这有点象维摩诘经，
00:43
an ancient work from ancient India
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古印度的一部经典名著。
00:46
in which the Buddha appears at the beginning and a whole bunch of people
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书里佛祖在开头出现，很多人
00:52
come to see him from the biggest city in the area, Vaishali,
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从瓦伊瑟利，地区最大的城市来看他,
00:56
and they bring some sort of jeweled parasols to make an offering to him.
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带着一种镶有珠宝的阳伞来献给他。
01:00
All the young people, actually, from the city.
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实际上所有城里的年轻人
01:03
The old fogeys don't come because they're mad at Buddha,
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－－守旧的人不来，因为他们对佛祖很生气
01:08
because when he came to their city he accepted --
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因为当他来到他们的城市，他接受了－－
01:10
he always accepts the first invitation that comes to him, from whoever it is,
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他总是接受他收到的第一张请帖，不管是谁的，
01:14
and the local geisha, a movie-star sort of person,
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当地的艺妓，影星式的人，
01:18
raced the elders of the city in a chariot and invited him first.
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赶着大篷车超过了城里的老人，抢先邀请到他。
01:21
So he was hanging out with the movie star, and of course they were grumbling:
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所以他在和影星消磨时间， 他们当然抱怨：
01:25
"He's supposed to be religious and all this.
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“他应该虔诚才对，
01:27
What's he doing over there at Amrapali's house with all his 500 monks,"
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他和他的五百个僧侣在那个蓭摩罗女的屋子里干什么？”
01:32
and so on. They were all grumbling, and so they boycotted him.
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诸如此类。他们都在抱怨，所以他们抵制他。
01:36
They wouldn't go listen to him.
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他们不去聆听他。
01:37
But the young people all came.
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但年轻人都来了。
01:39
And they brought this kind of a jeweled parasol, and they put it on the ground.
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他们带着这种镶有珠宝的阳伞，把它放在地上。
01:43
And as soon as they had laid all these,
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就在他们放下所有这些，
01:45
all their big stack of these jeweled parasols that they used to carry in ancient India,
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这些他们经常在古代印度打着的成堆的阳伞，
01:50
he performed a kind of special effect which made it into a giant planetarium,
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他表演了一个特效，把它变成了一个庞大的天象仪，
01:57
the wonder of the universe. Everyone looked in that, and they saw in there
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宇宙的奇观。 每个人看向它，他们看见在其中
02:00
the total interconnectedness of all life in all universes.
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所有宇宙中的所有生命都是息息相关的。
02:04
And of course, in the Buddhist cosmos there are millions and billions of planets
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当然，在佛教徒的宇宙中有无数的星球
02:08
with human life on it,
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有人类生命，
02:10
and enlightened beings can see the life on all the other planets.
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觉悟了的人能看到所有其他星球上的生命。
02:13
So they don't -- when they look out and they see those lights that you showed
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所以当他们看到天空中的星光，
02:16
in the sky -- they don't just see sort of pieces of matter burning
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他们看到的不仅仅是燃烧着的物质，
02:20
or rocks or flames or gases exploding.
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或是岩石，或是火焰，或是膨胀的气体。
02:24
They actually see landscapes and human beings
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他们其实看到的是风景和人类，
02:26
and gods and dragons and serpent beings and goddesses and things like that.
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神、龙、蛇、女神，诸如此类。
02:32
He made that special effect at the beginning
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他在一开始制造了那个特效，
02:34
to get everyone to think about interconnection
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使每个人都思考互动
02:37
and interconnectedness and how everything in life was totally interconnected.
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和连通性，生活中的每件事是如何紧密联系着的。
02:42
And then Leilei -- I know his other name -- told us about interconnection,
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然后雷雷－－我知道他另外的名字 －－告诉我们关于互联，
02:50
and how we're all totally interconnected here,
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以及关于我们在这里是如何全部相连的，
02:53
and how we've all known each other. And of course in the Buddhist universe,
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和我们如何认识其他所有的人。当然，在佛教的世界里，
02:56
we've already done this already billions of times in many, many lifetimes in the past.
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我们已经在多次的前世中这样做了无数次。
03:01
And I didn't give the talk always. You did, and we had to watch you, and so forth.
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我不总是做演讲。你演讲，我们得看你，如此这般。
03:10
And we're all still trying to, I guess we're all trying to become TEDsters,
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我们仍旧尝试着，我想我们都在试着成为TED成员，
03:14
if that's a modern form of enlightenment.
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如果这是现代形式的启蒙。
03:18
I guess so. Because in a way, if a TEDster relates to all the interconnectedness
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我想是这样的。 因为在某种意义上，如果TED成员连接着所有的互联
03:22
of all the computers and everything, it's the forging of a mass awareness,
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电脑和事物, 这是一种大众觉醒的结成，
03:28
of where everybody can really know everything
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在这里每个人都能真正知道所有
03:30
that's going on everywhere in the planet.
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发生在地球任何地方的事。
03:32
And therefore it will become intolerable --
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所以它将变得无法忍受－－
03:34
what compassion is, is where it will become intolerable for us,
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慈悲是什么，是我们变得无法忍受
03:38
totally intolerable that we sit here in comfort and in pleasure and enjoying
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完全无法忍受我们舒服地坐在这里，开心的享受
03:44
the life of the mind or whatever it is,
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精神生活或无论什么，
03:46
and there are people who are absolutely riddled with disease
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却有人疾病缠身，
03:51
and they cannot have a bite of food and they have no place,
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他们没有食物吃，他们没有地方住，
03:54
or they're being brutalized by some terrible person and so forth.
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或者他们被一些恶人折磨着。
03:57
It just becomes intolerable.
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这真是不能忍受。
03:59
With all of us knowing everything, we're kind of forced by technology
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当我们知道每一件事，我们在一定程度上受科技驱使
04:05
to become Buddhas or something, to become enlightened.
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变成佛一样，变得觉悟。
04:09
And of course, we all will be deeply disappointed when we do.
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当然那时我们都会深深感到失望。
04:15
Because we think that because we are kind of tired of what we do,
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因为我们有点厌倦我们做的事，
04:22
a little bit tired, we do suffer.
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有一丁点厌倦，我们确实在受折磨。
04:24
We do enjoy our misery in a certain way.
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我们确实在某种程度上享受我们的痛苦。
04:27
We distract ourselves from our misery by running around somewhere,
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我们通过忙忙碌碌来分散我们的痛苦，
04:30
but basically we all have this common misery
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但其实我们都有同样的痛苦
04:32
that we are sort of stuck inside our skins
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我们都困在自己的躯体里
04:35
and everyone else is out there.
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其他人在外面。
04:38
And occasionally we get together with another person stuck in their skin
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我们偶尔和另外也困在他们躯体里的人相聚，
04:41
and the two of us enjoy each other, and each one tries to get out of their own,
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我们享受对方，尝试走出自己的世界，
04:46
and ultimately it fails of course, and then we're back into this thing.
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当然最后失败了，我们回到原地。
04:50
Because our egocentric perception -- from the Buddha's point of view, misperception --
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因为我们自我中心的观念 －在佛看来这是错误的观念－
04:56
is that all we are is what is inside our skin.
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我们的全部就是我们躯体里面的东西。
05:00
And it's inside and outside, self and other,
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里面和外面，自我和他人，
05:03
and other is all very different.
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而他人是全然不同的。
05:04
And everyone here is unfortunately carrying that habitual perception,
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很不幸，在场的每个人都有这种惯常的观念，
05:07
a little bit, right?
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有一点，对吧？
05:10
You know, someone sitting next to you in a seat -- that's OK because you're in a theater,
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比方说，某个人坐在你身边 －－ 这个可以，因为你在剧院，
05:13
but if you were sitting on a park bench and someone came up and sat that close to you,
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但如果你坐在公园的凳子上，有个人过来坐在你旁边，
05:16
you'd freak out.
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你就会焦虑不安。
05:18
What do they want from me? Like, who's that?
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他们想从我这里得到什么？他是谁？
05:21
And so you wouldn't sit that close to another person
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所以你不会和别人坐得那么近，
05:24
because of your notion that it's you versus the universe -- that's all Buddha discovered.
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因为在你的理念中那是你对世界 －－ 那就是佛的发现。
05:30
Because that cosmic basic idea that it is us all alone, each of us,
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因为那个基本的宇宙观， 我们每个人都是孤立的，
05:35
and everyone else is different,
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每个人都是不同的，
05:38
then that puts us in an impossible situation, doesn't it?
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这把我们放到一种绝境，不是吗？
05:41
Who is it who's going to get enough attention from the world?
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谁会得到世界足够的关注？
05:44
Who's going to get enough out of the world?
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谁能在这个世界里得到满足？
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Who's not going to be overrun by an infinite number of other beings --
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谁能不被无数其他存在物所侵占 －－
05:50
if you're different from all the other beings?
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如果你和所有其他存在物都不同的话？
05:53
So where compassion comes is where you
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慈悲心会出现在
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surprisingly discover you lose yourself in some way:
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你惊讶地发现你迷失了自己的地方：
06:02
through art, through meditation, through understanding, through knowledge actually,
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通过艺术、通过冥想、通过理解、通过认知，
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knowing that you have no such boundary,
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知道你没有这种界限，
06:09
knowing your interconnectedness with other beings.
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知道你和其他事物是相连的。
06:12
You can experience yourself as the other beings
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你可以通过其他事物体验自己，
06:15
when you see through the delusion of being separated from them.
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当你看清了你与他们的分离只是个幻觉。
06:20
When you do that, you're forced to feel what they feel.
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当你那样做的时候，你就必须感受他们的感受。
06:23
Luckily, they say -- I still am not sure --
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幸运的是，他们说 －－我还不确定 －－
06:27
but luckily, they say that when you reach that point because some people have said
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但幸运的是，他们说当你达到那种境界，因为有些人
06:31
in the Buddhist literature, they say, "Oh who would really want to be compassionate?
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在佛教书籍中，他们说，哦， 有谁真的想要慈悲吗？
06:34
How awful! I'm so miserable on my own. My head is aching.
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多么可怕！我是多么的痛苦，我头痛。
06:39
My bones are aching. I go from birth to death. I'm never satisfied.
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我骨头痛。 我经历生死。 我从不满足。
06:42
I never have enough, even if I'm a billionaire, I don't have enough.
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我从来不够，即使我是亿万富翁，我从来不够。
06:45
I need a hundred billion." So I'm like that.
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我需要一千亿，我就是那样。
06:48
Imagine if I had to feel even a hundred other people's suffering.
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想像一下如果我必须感觉即使是一百个其他人的痛苦，
06:54
It would be terrible.
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这也很可怕。
06:56
But apparently, this is a strange paradox of life.
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但明显的，这是一个奇怪的生命悖论。
06:59
When you're no longer locked in yourself,
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当你不在局限在自己的世界里，
07:03
and as the wisdom or the intelligence or the scientific knowledge
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当智慧，才学 或是
07:06
of the nature of the world, that enables you to let your mind spread out,
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对世界本质的科学知识，使你能够拓展你的思想，
07:14
and empathize, and enhance the basic human ability of empathizing,
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同情，提高人类的基本同情心，
07:18
and realizing that you are the other being,
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体会到己就是他，
07:21
somehow by that opening, you can see the deeper nature of life. And you can,
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通过打开自己，你可以看到生命更深的本质，你可以
07:27
you get away from this terrible iron circle of I, me, me, mine,
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走出这个可怕的自我的铁圈-我，我，我，我的，
07:35
like the Beatles used to sing.
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象披头士过去唱的一样。
07:37
You know, we really learned everything in the '60s.
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你知道，我们确实在60年代学到了所有东西。
07:39
Too bad nobody ever woke up to it,
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可惜没有人从中清醒，
07:43
and they've been trying to suppress it since then.
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他们从那时起一直试图把它压下来。
07:45
I, me, me, mine. It's like a perfect song, that song. A perfect teaching.
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我，我，我，我的。它象一首完美的歌。一个完美的教义。
07:50
But when we're relieved from that,
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但当我们脱离了它，
07:53
we somehow then become interested in all the other beings.
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我们不知怎么地就会变得对其他事物感兴趣。
07:55
And we feel ourselves differently. It's totally strange.
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我们对自己的感知也不同。这非常奇怪。
07:59
It's totally strange.
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这非常奇怪。
08:01
The Dalai Lama always likes to say --
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达赖喇嘛一直喜欢说 －－
08:04
he says that when you give birth in your mind to the idea of compassion,
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他说当你的心中产生了慈悲心，
08:09
it's because you realize that you yourself and your pains and pleasures
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这是因为你认识到你自己，你的快乐和痛苦
08:13
are finally too small a theater for your intelligence.
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不足以填充你才智的舞台。
08:17
It's really too boring whether you feel like this or like that, or what, you know --
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不管你觉得这样或那样，你知道什么，这都非常枯燥－－
08:22
and the more you focus on how you feel, by the way, the worse it gets.
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你越关注你的感觉，这会变得越坏。
08:28
Like, even when you're having a good time,
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就象，即使你在享受好时光，
08:30
when is the good time over?
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这好时光什么时候过去？
08:32
The good time is over when you think, how good is it?
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当你在想这时光有多好的时候，它已经过去。
08:36
And then it's never good enough.
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它也从来不够好。
08:39
I love that Leilei said that the way of helping those who are suffering badly
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我喜欢leilei所说的：帮助那些遭受身体上或是其他痛苦的人
08:44
on the physical plane or on other planes is having a good time,
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的途径是享受人生，
08:49
doing it by having a good time.
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通过享受人生来解决问题。
08:51
I think the Dalai Lama should have heard that. I wish he'd been there to hear that.
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我觉得达赖喇嘛应该听过这句话，我希望他在那儿听到。
08:54
He once told me -- he looked kind of sad;
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他曾告诉我 －－ 他看起来有些悲伤；
08:56
he worries very much about the haves and have-nots.
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他很担心那些拥有一切的和一无所有的。
08:58
He looked a little sad, because he said, well, a hundred years ago,
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他看起来有些悲伤，因为他说：那么，因为一百年前，
09:02
they went and took everything away from the haves.
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他们起义，拿走了拥有者的一切。
09:05
You know, the big communist revolutions, Russia and China and so forth.
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你知道，俄国和中国的共产主义革命。
09:08
They took it all away by violence,
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他们通过暴力取得，
09:10
saying they were going to give it to everyone, and then they were even worse.
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宣称他们将把财富分给所有人，然后他们其实更恶劣。
09:14
They didn't help at all.
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他们一点也没有起作用。
09:16
So what could possibly change this terrible gap that has opened up in the world today?
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什么可以改变当今世界的这个可怕的贫富差距呢？
09:22
And so then he looks at me.
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然后他看着我。
09:24
So I said, "Well, you know, you're all in this yourself. You teach: it's generosity,"
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我说，“你知道，你自己就是这样言传身教的：慷慨。”
09:29
was all I could think of. What is virtue?
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这是我所能想到的。什么是美德？
09:32
But of course, what you said, I think the key to saving the world, the key to compassion
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但当然，我想拯救世界的关键，慈悲心的关键
09:38
is that it is more fun.
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是它更有趣。
09:42
It should be done by fun. Generosity is more fun. That's the key.
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因为有趣才去做。慷慨更让人快乐。那是关键。
09:47
Everybody has the wrong idea. They think Buddha was so boring,
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所有人都有个错误观念。他们认为佛教很枯燥，
09:51
and they're so surprised when they meet Dalai Lama and he's fairly jolly.
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当他们见到达赖喇嘛时，他们惊讶地发现他是很欢乐的。
09:55
Even though his people are being genocided --
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即使他的人民在遭受种族灭绝 －－
09:57
and believe me, he feels every blow on every old nun's head,
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相信我，他感觉到每个老尼姑所受的羞辱，
10:02
in every Chinese prison. He feels it.
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在每个中国监狱。他能感觉到。
10:05
He feels the way they are harvesting yaks nowadays.
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他感觉得到现今他们屠杀的方式。
10:08
I won't even say what they do. But he feels it.
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我还不会说他们做了什么。但他能感受到。
10:12
And yet he's very jolly. He's extremely jolly.
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他还是很快乐的。他异常喜乐。
10:16
Because when you open up like that,
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因为当你象那样开放，
10:19
then you can't just -- what good does it do to add being miserable with others' misery?
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你不会仅仅 －－ 这有什么好处要是只是徒增痛苦？
10:25
You have to find some vision where you see how hopeful it is,
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你必然会找到它积极的一面，
10:28
how it can be changed.
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它如何能改善。
10:30
Look at that beautiful thing Chiho showed us. She scared us with the lava man.
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看到chiho展示的那么美的事物。她用岩浆人把我们吓住了。
10:34
She scared us with the lava man is coming,
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她吓唬我们说，岩浆人来了，
10:37
then the tsunami is coming,
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海啸来了。
10:39
but then finally there were flowers and trees, and it was very beautiful.
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但最终是花儿，绿树，这很美。
10:45
It's really lovely.
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这真的很可爱。
10:47
So, compassion means to feel the feelings of others,
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所以，慈悲心意味着感受其他人的感受。
10:53
and the human being actually is compassion.
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人类其实皆有慈悲心。
10:56
The human being is almost out of time.
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人类几乎没有时间了。
11:00
The human being is compassion because what is our brain for?
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人类都有慈悲心，因为我们的大脑就是干这个用的。
11:04
Now, Jim's brain is memorizing the almanac.
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比如，吉姆的大脑在记忆历书。
11:10
But he could memorize all the needs of all the beings that he is, he will, he did.
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但他能记住所有生命的需求，他的现在，将来，过去。
11:15
He could memorize all kinds of fantastic things to help many beings.
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他能记得各种神奇的事来帮助很多其他人。
11:20
And he would have tremendous fun doing that.
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他会非常喜欢做那个。
11:23
So the first person who gets happy,
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所以第一个幸福起来的人，
11:25
when you stop focusing on the self-centered situation of, how happy am I,
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当你停止自我中心的境况－－我有多幸福，
11:30
where you're always dissatisfied --
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你总会失望－－
11:32
as Mick Jagger told us. You never get any satisfaction that way.
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就如米克.贾格尔告诉我们的，你那样永远得不到满足。
11:37
So then you decide, "Well, I'm sick of myself.
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然后你决定，我受够了我自己。
11:39
I'm going to think of how other people can be happy.
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我要想想如何使其他人快乐。
11:42
I'm going to get up in the morning and think,
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我要早上起来想，
11:43
what can I do for even one other person, even a dog, my dog, my cat,
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我可以做什么，为即使一个其他人，即使一只狗，我的狗，我的猫，
11:47
my pet, my butterfly?"
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我的宠物，我的蝴蝶。
11:50
And the first person who gets happy when you do that,
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当你那样想的时候，第一个快乐起来的人是你，
11:52
you don't do anything for anybody else, but you get happier, you yourself,
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你还没有为其他人做任何事，你就会变得更快乐，你自己，
11:57
because your whole perception broadens
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因为你的整个观念开阔了，
12:00
and you suddenly see the whole world and all of the people in it.
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你突然看到整个世界和它其中所有的人。
12:04
And you realize that this -- being with these people --
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你明白这点 －－ 和其他人共存 －－
12:06
is the flower garden that Chiho showed us.
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是Chiho给我们展示的花园。
12:08
It is Nirvana.
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这是涅磐（极乐世界）。
12:10
And my time is up. And I know the TED commandments.
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我的时间到了。 我知道TED的戒律。
12:12
Thank you.
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谢谢。
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Thurman - Buddhist scholarThe first American to be ordained a Tibetan Monk by the Dalai Lama, Robert A.F. Thurman is a scholar, author and tireless proponent of peace.
Why you should listen
Tenzin Robert Thurman became a Tibetan monk at age 24. He's a professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist studies at Columbia University, and co-founder of Tibet House US, a nonprofit dedicated to the preservation and promotion of Tibetan civilization.
Thurman's focus is on the balance between inner insight and cultural harmony. In interpreting the teachings of Buddha, he argues that happiness can be reliable and satisfying in an enduring way without depriving others.
He has translated many Buddhist Sutras, or teachings, and written many books, recently taking on the topic of Anger for the recent Oxford series on the seven deadly sins. He maintains a podcast on Buddhist topics. And yes, he is Uma's dad.
Robert Thurman | Speaker | TED.com