Andrew Marantz: Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists
앤드류 머랜츠(Andrew Marantz): 인터넷 트롤과 선동자들의 기상천외한 세상 속으로
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
people on the internet.
최악의 사람들과 대화했습니다.
a lot of toxic garbage out there:
많다는 걸 알 수 있죠.
viral misinformation.
허위 사실 유포.
who was making this stuff.
how they were spreading it.
알고 싶었습니다.
it might be having on our society.
영향을 미치는가 였습니다.
some of these memes back to their source,
근원을 추적하기 시작했습니다.
or who were making them go viral.
그런 사람들 말이에요.
Can I come watch you do what you do?"
좀 찾아봬도 될까요?"
Brooklyn globalist Jew cuck
"Look, man, that's only 57 percent true."
"그건 57%만 사실이에요."
in the living room
in Southern California.
소셜미디어 선동가들의 집으로요.
in his late 30s.
with a mug of coffee,
to Periscope and YouTube.
noxious talking points
미국인들의 일상적인 대화에
the American conversation.
had a Muslim-sounding name.
약간 무슬림 같았어요.
this seemed like an opportunity,
이걸 놓칠리 없죠
almost all immigration,
모두 막는 것이었거든요.
worked up into a frenzy
was going to kill us all
미국은 끝장날거라고요.
images like this one.
and philanthropist,
자선가입니다.
of some conspiracists online,
a globalist bogeyman,
manipulating all of global affairs.
사람들을 조종하는 소수의 엘리트요.
if this idea sounds familiar to you,
이거 어디서 많이 들어보셨죠.
who control the world
전 세계를 조종하는데
anti-Semitic tropes in existence.
가장 대표적인 예입니다.
in New York who planted that bomb,
그 폭탄 심었다는 남자는
he understood all this.
이걸 다 알고 있었어요.
He was actually a lawyer.
실제로도 변호사죠.
do not drive conversation online.
않는다는 것도 알고 있었죠.
to bring us all together,
and tolerant and fair ...
관대하고 정의롭게 만드는 등
have never been built
what's true or false,
what's prosocial and what's antisocial.
친사회적인지 아닌지는 중요치 않죠.
그럴려고 만든게 아니에요.
is measure engagement:
retweets, that kind of thing.
to get engagement,
보길 원한다면
call "high-arousal emotion."
"정서적 각성" 이라고 하는데
mean sexual arousal,
말하는건 아닙니다.
obviously that works.
긍정 혹은 부정적이던
that gets people's hearts pumping.
그 무언가를 의미해요.
but dozens of them,
많은 사람들을요.
again and again successfully,
수행하는 모습을 봤습니다.
not because they were tech prodigies,
천재 기술자라거나
unique political insights --
가지고 있어서가 아니라
how social media worked,
작동하는지를 이해한거에요.
to exploit it to their advantage.
this was a fringe phenomenon,
아니라고 생각했습니다.
relegated to the internet.
between the internet and everything else.
나누는게 무의미해요.
on multiple TV stations
that one of the candidates
국제적 조종가 조지 소로스가
international manipulator George Soros,
뒤를 봐주고 있다고 하죠.
next to stacks of cash.
the President of the United States,
manipulated by George Soros.
조종되고 있다고 합니다.
and marginal and, frankly, just ignorable,
별로 시덥잖은 이런 것들이
that we hardly even notice it.
더 이상 놀랍지도 않습니다.
three years in this world.
no core beliefs at all.
보이진 않았습니다.
perfectly rationally,
도박을 하는거 같았죠.
to make some money online
as outrageous as possible.
who were true ideologues.
빠져 있었죠.
was not traditional conservatism.
전통적 보수주의같은 건 아니였어요.
to revoke female suffrage.
to go back to racial segregation.
with democracy altogether.
사람들도 있었죠.
were not born believing these things.
그랬던건 아니에요.
in elementary school.
down some internet rabbit hole,
or they had been socialist
믿는 사람이었거나,
of a high IQ and a low EQ.
in anonymous, online spaces
편안함을 느꼈죠.
to these message boards
또는 서브 레딧으로
would be magnified.
표현될 수 있는 장소로요.
something just as a sick joke,
한마디씩 던지는 게
positive reinforcement for that joke,
"internet points," as they called it,
believing their own joke.
농담을 실제로 믿게 됩니다.
who grew up in New Jersey,
많은 이야기를 나눴는데
she moved to a new place
alienated and cut off
모든 교류를 중단하고
spaces on the internet
극악무도한 것이
the most shocking, heinous things.
really off-putting
look away from it.
in these online spaces,
사람들과 대화를 나누게 되고
they made her feel validated.
똑똑하다고 말해줍니다.
some of these shocking memes
모른다고 생각하게 됩니다.
with some of her new internet friends
같은 차에 탄 상태로
in the name of the white race.
횃불을 들고 행진을 합니다.
from Obama supporter
백인 우월주의자가 되어버립니다.
out of the cult of white supremacy.
탈출할 수 있었습니다만,
I spoke to were not.
그렇지 못했죠.
that I had to find common ground
항상 공통점을 찾아야 한다고
you're a fascist propagandist, I'm not,
난 아니야,
all our differences will melt away."
서로 달라도 친구가 될 수 있을 거야."
just look away from this stuff.
지나칠 순 없다고 생각합니다.
because only by understanding it
그렇게 함으로써
ourselves against it.
시작할 수 있기 때문입니다.
I got a few nasty phone calls,
몇통 받았습니다.
female journalists get on this beat.
비하면 아무것도 아닙니다.
couldn't tell I was Jewish,
저를 알아보진 못하더라고요.
kind of disappointing.
is being a professional anti-Semite.
is tipping you off at all?
I write for "The New Yorker,"
"뉴요커"에서 일합니다.
is like if a Seinfeld episode
시트콤 사인필드의 한 에피소드를
아무것도?
it would be nice
있었다면 말이에요.
equals 12 percent chance of Nazi.
12%의 확률로 나치이다" 같은 거요.
being descriptive, not prescriptive.
of the internet like you and I
a little bit less toxic.
만들 수 있도록요.
똑똑한 회의론자 되기입니다.
two kinds of skepticism.
회의주의가 있다고 생각해요.
epistemological information here,
다루고 싶진 않습니다.
멍청한 회의주의가 있는데요.
it sounds like skepticism,
그럴듯하게 들리지만
to knee-jerk contrarianism.
회의적이기만 한 것이에요.
I'm skeptical about that."
하는 것이죠.
I have spoken to in the last few years
수많은 젊은 백인 남성은
they're all trying to indoctrinate me
나를 세뇌하려고 해,
and white privilege,
백인이 더 우대 받는 세상이라고.
man, I don't think so."
white teens of the world --
and a male privilege skeptic
남성이 차별대우를 받고 있고
you're being a jerk.
we all should be independent-minded,
모두가 그래야하지만
who will say, "Well, I'm pro-free speech,"
"저는 표현의 자유를 존중해요."
that it's like they're settling a debate,
토론을 시작하는것 처럼 말하죠.
of any meaningful conversation.
시작에 불과할 뿐인데 말이죠.
happens after that point.
What does that mean?
그게 무슨 의미죠?
and Richard Spencer
리처드 스펜서가
can harass anyone else online
욕을 해도 되는 건가요?
the entire list of TED speakers this year.
강연자들의 전체 리스트를 살펴봤어요.
round earth skeptic.
회의적인 사람은 없었죠.
it's wonderful to be pro-free speech,
표현의 자유는 아주 좋은 것이지요.
how to say again and again,
of a more productive conversation.
가로 막고 있는 거예요.
to Reddit or YouTube or Facebook,
자주 방문합니다.
what the algorithms showed me, right?
대충 짐작이 가시죠?
across the United States?"
장악하고 있는가?"
bizarre dynamic online,
온라인 세계에 이르렀습니다.
and human decency as pearl-clutching
또는 인간의 품위를, 충격적인 것
그저 지루하다고 생각하죠.
whether intentionally or not,
의도했든 아니든
is great for engagement.
참여율을 올리는데 최고이니까요.
everyone comments on it,
답글을 남깁니다.
that has to happen here
to fix their platforms.
고치는 것 입니다.
and you work at a social media company
소셜 미디어의 회사에서 일하거나
or, I don't know, own one,
회사 하나를 소유한다면,
for maximum emotional engagement
감정적인 참여를 유도해왔고,
to be actively harming the world,
능동적으로 해치고 있다면,
on them to do that
압력을 가하고
and hoping that they'll do that,
바라고 기다리면서
the rest of us can do, too.
몇 가지 있습니다.
or suggest some better pathways
더 나은 길을 만들어주거나,
is really creative and thoughtful
생각이 깊은 글을 보고
you can share that thing,
with high arousal emotion.
일으키지 않아도요.
this stuff does matter,
중요한 것이 됩니다.
as powerful as they are,
behavioral cues from us.
인식하기 때문이죠.
it was really fashionable
혁명적인 도구이며,
was a revolutionary tool
얘기하는 것이
irredeemable dumpster fire.
재앙이라고 얘기해야 합니다.
is just too vast and complex
해롭다고 얘기하기엔
these ways of thinking,
that the internet will inevitably save us
이상향의 관점이나,
will inevitably destroy us,
관점으로 생각하는 것의 위험은
ourselves off the hook.
about our future.
불가피한 것은 없습니다.
at social media companies.
사람들이 결정을 내리며,
그렇지 않거나,
for some inevitable future to arrive
기다리는게 아니라,
that the arc of the moral universe is long
끝내는 정의를 향한다고 배웠습니다.
우리의 열망이었을 뿐,
by some mysterious force.
불가피하게 휘는 것이 아닙니다.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Andrew Marantz - WriterAndrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world.
Why you should listen
Since 2016, Andrew Marantz has been at work on a book about the perils of virality, the myth of linear progress and the American far right. To report the book, he spent several years embedded with some of the conspiracists, white supremacists and nihilist trolls who have become experts at using social media to advance their corrosive agendas. He also watched as some of social media's earliest and most influential founders started to reckon with the forces they'd unleashed. The book, forthcoming in October from Viking Press, is called Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hijacking of the American Conversation.
Marantz is also a contributor to Radiolab and The New Yorker Radio Hour, and has written for Harper's, Mother Jones, the New York Times and many other outlets. He holds an undergraduate degree in religion from Brown University and a master's degree in literary nonfiction from New York University. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, who is a criminal-justice reformer; his two-year-old son, who is an excellent dancer; and an endless supply of peanut butter.
Andrew Marantz | Speaker | TED.com