ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Mariana Mazzucato - Innovation economist
Which actor in the economy is most responsible for making radical innovation happen? Mariana Mazzucato comes up with a surprising answer: the state.

Why you should listen

States and governments are often depicted as slow, bureaucratic, risk-averse. That argument is used in support of making states smaller and the private sector bigger. In her latest book, The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Private vs. Public Myths in Innovation and in her research, Mariana Mazzucato offers a bold contrarian view: States aren't only market regulators and fixers, but "market makers" -- actively creating a vision for innovation and investing in risky and uncertain areas where private capital may not see the ROI. Yes: Private venture capital is much less risk-taking than generally thought. As an example, the technology behind the iPhone and Google exists because the U.S. government has been very interventionist in funding innovation. Private investors jumped in only later. The same is true today of what promises to be the next big thing after the Internet: the green revolution.

Mazzucato, a professor of economics at the Science and Technology Policy Research Unit (SPRU, University of Sussex), argues that Europe needs today to rediscover that role -- that what the continent needs is not austerity but strategic investments (and new instruments such as public investments banks) towards an "innovation Union."

More profile about the speaker
Mariana Mazzucato | Speaker | TED.com
TEDGlobal 2013

Mariana Mazzucato: Government -- investor, risk-taker, innovator

玛利亚娜·马祖卡托: 政府-投资家、冒险家、革新家

Filmed:
946,214 views

为什么政府不让私有公司-那些“真正的革新家”去创新?这是你经常会听到的话。玛利亚娜·马祖卡托要反驳这样的话。在这个激情四溢的演讲里,她告诉我们美国政府-一个看似缓慢、守旧的庞然大物-是如何成为最令人振奋的冒险者和市场塑造者的。
- Innovation economist
Which actor in the economy is most responsible for making radical innovation happen? Mariana Mazzucato comes up with a surprising answer: the state. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
Have you ever asked yourselves你自己 why it is that
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在座的各位有没有问过自己, 为什么那些
00:15
companies公司, the really cool companies公司,
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很酷的公司,
00:17
the innovative创新 ones那些, the creative创作的,
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那些有创意、懂创新的
00:18
new economy-type经济型 companies公司 --
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新经济型的公司 — —
00:20
Apple苹果, Google谷歌, FacebookFacebook的 --
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苹果、 谷歌、脸书— —
00:23
are coming未来 out of one particular特定 country国家,
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都来自同一个国家
00:26
the United联合的 States状态 of America美国?
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美国呢?
00:28
Usually平时 when I say this, someone有人 says, "SpotifySpotify的!
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通常当我谈到这一点时,有人会说,"Spotify !“(瑞典的提供免费音乐试听的公司)
00:30
That's Europe欧洲." But, yeah.
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那是欧洲的公司。确实是的。
00:31
It has not had the impact碰撞 that these other companies公司 have had.
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但这个公司远没有我提到的那几个美国公司的影响力。
00:35
Now what I do is I'm an economist经济学家,
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我是一名经济学家,
00:37
and I actually其实 study研究 the relationship关系
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我所研究的是
00:38
between之间 innovation革新 and economic经济 growth发展
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在公司、 行业和国家层面上
00:40
at the level水平 of the company公司, the industry行业 and the nation国家,
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创新和经济增长之间的关系。
00:43
and I work with policymakers政策制定者 worldwide全世界,
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我与各国的政策制定者合作。
00:45
especially特别 in the European欧洲的 Commission佣金,
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特别是为欧盟委员会工作,
00:47
but recently最近 also in interesting有趣 places地方 like China中国,
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最近也为一些生机盎然的国家比如中国工作。
00:50
and I can tell you that that question
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我可以告诉你,我一开始问的那一问题
00:52
is on the tip小费 of all of their tongues舌头:
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都曾从他们的舌尖上流出来过,
00:55
Where are the European欧洲的 Googles谷歌?
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欧洲谷歌在哪里?
00:57
What is the secret秘密 behind背后 the Silicon Valley growth发展 model模型,
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硅谷经济增长模式背后的秘密是什么?
01:01
which哪一个 they understand理解 is different不同
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他们的做法和
01:03
from this old economy经济 growth发展 model模型?
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旧的经济增长模式的不同之处何在?
01:06
And what is interesting有趣 is that often经常,
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有趣的是,通常来讲,
01:08
even if we're in the 21stST century世纪,
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即使我们现在处在 21 世纪,
01:10
we kind of come down in the end结束 to these ideas思路
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我们会得出这样的结论,那就是
01:12
of market市场 versus state.
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市场对抗国家。
01:14
It's talked about in these modern现代 ways方法,
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这被认为是现代(市场运营)方式。
01:16
but the idea理念 is that somehow不知何故, behind背后 places地方 like Silicon Valley,
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但是这种想法却和硅谷等地的背后秘密有所不同,
01:20
the secret秘密 have been different不同 types类型 of market-making做市商 mechanisms机制,
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硅谷有不同的市场开拓机制。
01:24
the private私人的 initiative倡议, whether是否 this be about
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私人动议,不管这个动议是否
01:27
a dynamic动态 venture冒险 capital首都 sector扇形
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属于动态风险投资范畴,
01:29
that's actually其实 able能够 to provide提供 that high-risk高风险 finance金融
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这些创新型公司都实际上
01:32
to these innovative创新 companies公司,
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能够得到高风险融资。
01:33
the gazelles瞪羚 as we often经常 call them,
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被我们称为“羚羊企业”的这些领军公司所需要的融资
01:35
which哪一个 traditional传统 banks银行 are scared害怕 of,
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是那些传统银行所害怕接手的。
01:37
or different不同 types类型 of really successful成功
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另外,不同类型的一些颇有成效的
01:39
commercialization商业化 policies政策 which哪一个 actually其实 allow允许 these companies公司
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商业化政策实际上允许这些公司
01:42
to bring带来 these great inventions发明, their products制品,
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把他们绝妙的发明、他们的产品
01:45
to the market市场 and actually其实 get over this
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直接推向市场,实际上得以
01:47
really scary害怕 Death死亡 Valley period
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安然度过被称为“可怕死亡谷”的时期。
01:49
in which哪一个 many许多 companies公司 instead代替 fail失败.
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其他的很多公司却在这个时期一败涂地。
01:52
But what really interests利益 me, especially特别 nowadays如今
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特别是现在,
01:54
and because of what's happening事件 politically政治上 around the world世界,
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源于世界上的政治动向,
01:57
is the language语言 that's used, the narrative叙述,
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真正让我感兴趣的是(商业中)使用的语言、叙述方法、
02:01
the discourse演讲, the images图片, the actual实际 words.
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话语、 图像和实际使用的词汇。
02:04
So we often经常 are presented呈现
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所以我们常常听到
02:06
with the kind of words like that the private私人的 sector扇形
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诸如私营部门之类的词汇
02:09
is also much more innovative创新 because it's able能够 to
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都是更有新意的,因为它能
02:11
think out of the box.
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跳出惯常的思维,
02:13
They are more dynamic动态.
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他们更有活力。
02:15
Think of Steve史蒂夫 Jobs'工作' really inspirational励志 speech言语
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让我们回想史蒂夫 · 乔布斯
02:18
to the 2005 graduating毕业 class at Stanford斯坦福,
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于2005年在斯坦福大学给毕业生做的演讲。
02:21
where he said to be innovative创新,
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他当时说: 一个人要创新,
02:23
you've got to stay hungry饥饿, stay foolish.
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就需要保持求知欲,不断地去试错。
02:26
Right? So these guys are kind of the hungry饥饿
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对吧?这些人都是些如饥似渴、
02:27
and foolish and colorful华美 guys, right?
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懵懵懂懂又个性鲜明的家伙,对吧?
02:30
And in places地方 like Europe欧洲,
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在像欧洲这样的地方
02:31
it might威力 be more equitable公平,
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社会更公平,
02:33
we might威力 even be a bit better dressed连衣裙的
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我们甚至被美国人穿得更讲究,
02:35
and eat better than the U.S.,
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吃得更可口。
02:37
but the problem问题 is this damn该死的 public上市 sector扇形.
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但问题在于这些讨厌的公共部门。
02:41
It's a bit too big, and it hasn't有没有 actually其实 allowed允许
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这些部门有些太庞大了,它实际上没法让
02:45
these things like dynamic动态 venture冒险 capital首都
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像动态风险资本
02:48
and commercialization商业化 to actually其实 be able能够 to really
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和商业化这样能够结出
02:50
be as fruitful卓有成效 as it could.
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商业硕果的事物存在。
02:52
And even really respectable可敬 newspapers报纸,
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即使那些很受人推崇的报纸,
02:54
some that I'm actually其实 subscribed认购 to,
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有些我正在订阅的报纸,
02:56
the words they use are, you know,
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你知道,他们把
02:58
the state as this Leviathan利维坦. Right?
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美国形容成“利维坦”。对吧?
【译注:利维坦是霍布斯的同名政治哲学著作里虚构出来的庞然大物】
03:01
This monster怪物 with big tentacles触手.
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有着巨大触角的怪兽。
03:03
They're very explicit明确的 in these editorials社论.
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他们在他们的社论里非常明确地这样说。
03:05
They say, "You know, the state, it's necessary必要
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他们说,"你知道,美国有必要
03:08
to fix固定 these little market市场 failures故障
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去修复这些小小的市场失灵。
03:10
when you have public上市 goods产品
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当你拥有公共物资
03:11
or different不同 types类型 of negative externalities外部性 like pollution污染,
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或那些负面的外部因素比如污染时。
03:14
but you know what, what is the next下一个 big revolution革命
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你知道吗,在互联网之后
03:17
going to be after the Internet互联网?
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下一次科技革命是什么吗?
03:19
We all hope希望 it might威力 be something green绿色,
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我们都希望它可能是一场绿色的革命。
03:21
or all of this nanotech纳米技术 stuff东东, and in order订购 for that stuff东东 to happen发生," they say --
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或者是与纳米技术有关的革命,为了让新科技革命成为可能,"他们说 —
03:25
this was a special特别 issue问题 on the next下一个 industrial产业 revolution革命 --
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这是关于下一次工业革命的特殊议题 — —
03:28
they say, "the state, just stick to the basics基本, right?
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他们说,"国家就是要专注于基础建设,对吧?
03:30
Fund基金 the infrastructure基础设施. Fund基金 the schools学校.
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给基础设施和学校建设投资。
03:33
Even fund基金 the basic基本 research研究, because this is
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也给基础科学研究投资,因为这是
03:35
popularly普遍 recognized认可, in fact事实, as a big public上市 good
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得到共识的。事实上,私营公司不想为
03:38
which哪一个 private私人的 companies公司 don't want to invest投资 in,
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大型的公共设施投资。
03:40
do that, but you know what?
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这是国家需要做的,你知道吗?
03:41
Leave离开 the rest休息 to the revolutionaries革命者."
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然后把剩下的(市场)留给革新者"。
03:44
Those colorful华美, out-of-the-box盒子外面 kind of thinkers思想家.
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那些个性鲜明、不拘一格的革新家,
03:47
They're often经常 called garage车库 tinkerers能工巧匠,
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通常被称为车库工匠,
03:49
because some of them actually其实 did some things in garages车库,
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他们中有些人确实是在车库里工作的,
03:51
even though虽然 that's partly部分地 a myth神话.
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这些故事都被传成神话了。
03:54
And so what I want to do with you in, oh God,
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所以我想和你们讲的是,天哪,
03:56
only 10 minutes分钟,
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只剩10 分钟了!
03:57
is to really think again this juxtaposition并列,
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(我要讲的)是我们要再考量(国家和市场的)并行。
04:00
because it actually其实 has massive大规模的, massive大规模的 implications启示
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因为这种并行有非常非常巨大的影响力,
04:03
beyond innovation革新 policy政策,
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超越于某些与我合作的决策者
04:04
which哪一个 just happens发生 to be the area
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所在地区的
04:06
that I often经常 talk with with policymakers政策制定者.
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创新政策之上。
04:09
It has huge巨大 implications启示, even with this whole整个 notion概念
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它有非常巨大的影响,甚至影响到整个国家
04:13
that we have on where, when and why
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对我们在何时、何地、为何
04:16
we should actually其实 be cutting切割 back on public上市 spending开支
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要削减公共开支
04:19
and different不同 types类型 of public上市 services服务 which哪一个,
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和其他公共服务部门的开支的决策。
04:21
of course课程, as we know, are increasingly日益 being存在
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我们知道,正是由于这种并行,一些公共服务部门的工作
04:23
outsourced外包 because of this juxtaposition并列.
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已经被更多的外包出去了。
04:25
Right? I mean, the reason原因 that we need to maybe have free自由 schools学校 or charter宪章 schools学校
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对吧?我是说,我们需要有公立学校或特许学校
04:28
is in order订购 to make them more innovative创新 without being存在 emburdenedemburdened
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通过国民必修课程等的重拳出击
04:32
by this heavy hand of the state curriculum课程, or something.
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无后顾之忧地把孩子们培养成为创新型人才。
04:35
So these kind of words are constantly经常,
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所以这些词汇的出现都是有一致性的,
04:37
these juxtapositions并列 come up everywhere到处,
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不仅与创新政策有关,
04:39
not just with innovation革新 policy政策.
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这种并行简直无处不在。
04:42
And so to think again,
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所以,再回过头来想,
04:43
there's no reason原因 that you should believe me,
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你们不需要相信我,
04:46
so just think of some of the smartest最聪明的
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就想想你口袋里的一些最绝妙的
04:47
revolutionary革命的 things that you have in your pockets口袋
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革新产品吧。
04:50
and do not turn it on, but you might威力 want to take it out, your iPhone苹果手机.
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不要打开开关哟。你就拿出来看看你的iPhone吧。
04:52
Ask who actually其实 funded资助 the really cool,
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你会问到底是谁给iPhone那些非常酷的
04:55
revolutionary革命的 thinking-out-of-the-box想-外的开箱
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革新性、突破性的
04:57
things in the iPhone苹果手机.
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技术投资的。
04:59
What actually其实 makes品牌 your phone电话
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到底是什么让你的电话
05:01
a smartphone手机, basically基本上, instead代替 of a stupid phone电话?
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基本上成了智能手机,而不仅仅是一个粗劣的手机呢?
05:03
So the Internet互联网, which哪一个 you can surf冲浪 the web卷筒纸
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通过互联网,你可以在世界上的
05:05
anywhere随地 you are in the world世界;
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任何地方上网冲浪。
05:06
GPS全球定位系统, where you can actually其实 know where you are
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通过GPS,你可以明确地知道
05:09
anywhere随地 in the world世界;
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自己在世界的某个地方。
05:10
the touchscreen触摸屏 display显示, which哪一个 makes品牌 it also
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触摸屏显示,使手机真正变成
05:13
a really easy-to-use使用方便 phone电话 for anybody任何人.
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任何人都可以轻松学会使用的手机。
05:15
These are the very smart聪明, revolutionary革命的 bits about the iPhone苹果手机,
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iPhone的这些非常巧妙的、革新性的部分
05:19
and they're all government-funded政府资助.
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其实全部都是由政府资助的。
05:23
And the point is that the Internet互联网
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就是说,互联网是由
05:26
was funded资助 by DARPADARPA, U.S. Department of Defense防御.
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DARPA美国国防部资助的。
05:28
GPS全球定位系统 was funded资助 by the military's军事的 Navstar导航卫星 program程序.
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全球定位系统(GPS) 是由军方的 Navstar项目出资的。
05:32
Even SiriSiri的 was actually其实 funded资助 by DARPADARPA.
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甚至语音控制功能(Siri) 都实际上是由 DARPA资助的。
05:35
The touchscreen触摸屏 display显示 was funded资助
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触屏显示是
05:37
by two public上市 grants补助 by the CIA中央情报局 and the NSFNSF
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由两个国家部门:中情局(CIA)和国家科学基金会(NSF)
05:41
to two public上市 university大学 researchers研究人员 at the University大学 of Delaware特拉华.
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资助美公立大学特拉华大学的两位科研人员而开发出来的。
05:46
Now, you might威力 be thinking思维, "Well, she's just said
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现在,您会想,"好吧,她只不过是讲了好几遍的
05:48
the word 'defense''防御' and 'military''军事' an awful可怕 lot,"
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'国防' 和 '军事' 什么的。"
05:50
but what's really interesting有趣 is that this is actually其实 true真正
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有趣的是,这些都是事实。
05:53
in sector扇形 after sector扇形 and department after department.
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就是由国家的一个又一个的部门,一个又一个的直属单位来做的。
05:56
So the pharmaceutical制药 industry行业, which哪一个 I am personally亲自
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我个人对制药业非常感兴趣。
05:58
very interested有兴趣 in because I've actually其实 had the fortune幸运
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因为我有幸比较
06:00
to study研究 it in quite相当 some depth深度,
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深入地研究了这一行。
06:02
is wonderful精彩 to be asking this question
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一个很有趣的问题是关于
06:05
about the revolutionary革命的 versus non-revolutionary非革命 bits,
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革新型和非革新型药物的。
06:07
because each and every一切 medicine医学 can actually其实 be
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因为每种药物都实际上可以
06:09
divided分为 up on whether是否 it really is revolutionary革命的 or incremental增加的.
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被分为革新型或者改进型。
06:13
So the new molecular分子 entities实体 with priority优先 rating评分
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有优先评级的新分子实体药物
06:16
are the revolutionary革命的 new drugs毒品,
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是革新型药物。
06:18
whereas the slight轻微 variations变化 of existing现有 drugs毒品 --
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而对原有药物进行细微改进的— —
06:21
Viagra伟哥, different不同 color颜色, different不同 dosage剂量 --
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比如伟哥,改变药物颜色、 改变药物剂量 — —
06:23
are the less revolutionary革命的 ones那些.
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这就属于非革新型药物了。
06:26
And it turns out that a full充分 75 percent百分
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结果呢,75%的
06:28
of the new molecular分子 entities实体 with priority优先 rating评分
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有优先评级的新分子实体
06:31
are actually其实 funded资助 in boring无聊, KafkianKafkian public上市 sector扇形 labs实验室.
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都实际上是由,老掉牙的Kafkian 公共部门实验室提供资金。
06:36
This doesn't mean that Big Pharma制药 is not spending开支 on innovation革新.
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这并不意味着大型制药公司不把钱花费在创新上。
06:39
They do. They spend on the marketing营销 part部分.
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他们也这样做。他们也往市场营销这一部分投钱。
06:41
They spend on the D part部分 of R&D.
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他们只是花钱用于开发市场。
06:43
They spend an awful可怕 lot on buying购买 back their stock股票,
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他们花费相当多的资金来购回自己的股票,
06:46
which哪一个 is quite相当 problematic问题.
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这是很成问题的。
06:48
In fact事实, companies公司 like Pfizer辉瑞公司 and Amgen安进 recently最近
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事实上,辉瑞和安进这样的大公司最近
06:50
have spent花费 more money in buying购买 back their shares分享
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为了抬高他们的股票价格,花在购买他们自家股票的资金
06:52
to boost促进 their stock股票 price价钱 than on R&D,
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远远超过他们花在研发方面的资金。
06:54
but that's a whole整个 different不同 TEDTED Talk which哪一个 one day
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这涉及了一个完全不同的 TED 演讲主题,
06:57
I'd be fascinated入迷 to tell you about.
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有一天我会很高兴讲给你们听的。
07:00
Now, what's interesting有趣 in all of this
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现在,在所有新研发的例子里,最有趣的是,
07:02
is the state, in all these examples例子,
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美国这个国家,
07:04
was doing so much more than just fixing定影 market市场 failures故障.
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所做的要比单纯修复市场失灵多得多。
07:08
It was actually其实 shaping成型 and creating创建 markets市场.
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它实际上是在塑造和创造市场。
07:11
It was funding资金 not only the basic基本 research研究,
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它不仅给基本研究投资,
07:13
which哪一个 again is a typical典型 public上市 good,
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那是典型的公共利益。
07:16
but even the applied应用的 research研究.
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它而且给应用研究投资。
07:17
It was even, God forbid禁止, being存在 a venture冒险 capitalist资本家.
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上帝保佑吧,它甚至成了风险资本家(给风险企业投资)。
07:21
So these SBIRSBIR and SDTRSDTR programs程式,
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这些小型企业研发资金项目(SBIR和SDTR)
07:24
which哪一个 give small companies公司 early-stage早期 finance金融
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给小型公司提供早期的财政支持。
07:28
have not only been extremely非常 important重要
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跟私人风险资本来投资比起来,
07:30
compared相比 to private私人的 venture冒险 capital首都,
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对于小企业这是非常非常重要的。
07:32
but also have become成为 increasingly日益 important重要.
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而且变得越来越重要。
07:35
Why? Because, as many许多 of us know,
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为什么呢?因为,我们很多人都知道,
07:38
V.C. is actually其实 quite相当 short-term短期.
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私人风险投资实际上是相当短期的行为。
07:40
They want their returns回报 in three to five years年份.
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他们想在三至五年内得到回报。
07:42
Innovation革新 takes a much longer time than that,
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可是创新需要比那更长的时间,
07:45
15 to 20 years年份.
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通常要15 到 20 年。
07:46
And so this whole整个 notion概念 -- I mean, this is the point, right?
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这就是整个的概念 — — 我是说,这是重点,对吧?
07:49
Who's谁是 actually其实 funding资金 the hard stuff东东?
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谁实际上在给研发难题提供资金?
07:51
Of course课程, it's not just the state.
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当然,不仅仅是国家政府。
07:53
The private私人的 sector扇形 does a lot.
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私营部门也做了很多。
07:54
But the narrative叙述 that we've我们已经 always been told
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但是事实总是告诉我们
07:56
is the state is important重要 for the basics基本,
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国家对于奠定研发的基础非常重要。
07:59
but not really providing提供 that sort分类 of high-risk高风险,
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但是它并不是那种高风险的
08:01
revolutionary革命的 thinking思维 out of the box.
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革新性创意本身。
08:04
In all these sectors行业, from funding资金 the Internet互联网
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所有这些公共部门,他们从资助互联网
08:06
to doing the spending开支, but also the envisioning构想,
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到负担期间的花费。他们甚至提供预想阶段和
08:09
the strategic战略 vision视力, for these investments投资,
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战略设想阶段的资金支持。
08:11
it was actually其实 coming未来 within the state.
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这些资金实际上都是来自于国家政府。
08:13
The nanotechnology纳米技术 sector扇形 is actually其实 fascinating迷人
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纳米技术部门(的科研人员)很醉心于
08:15
to study研究 this, because the word itself本身, nanotechnology纳米技术,
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这项研究。而纳米技术这个词汇本身
08:18
came来了 from within government政府.
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就是政府部门给起的。
08:20
And so there's huge巨大 implications启示 of this.
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它当然会带来巨大的影响。
08:23
First of all, of course课程 I'm not someone有人,
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首先,当然我不是那些,
08:25
this old-fashioned过时 person, market市场 versus state.
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守旧的认为“国家对抗市场”的人。
08:27
What we all know in dynamic动态 capitalism资本主义
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我们对动态资本主义的理解就是
08:29
is that what we actually其实 need are public-private公私 partnerships伙伴关系.
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我们确实需要“公共与私人”这样的伙伴关系。
08:32
But the point is, by constantly经常 depicting描绘
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但问题是,政府部门通常被描述成
08:35
the state part部分 as necessary必要
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一个必要的存在,
08:37
but actually其实 -- pffffpffff -- a bit boring无聊
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但实际上 — —噗 — — 有点呆板
08:40
and often经常 a bit dangerous危险 kind of Leviathan利维坦,
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一个通常会带来危险的利维坦。
08:43
I think we've我们已经 actually其实 really stunted发育不良 the possibility可能性
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我想我们真的在阻碍,
08:46
to build建立 these public-private公私 partnerships伙伴关系
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以一种真正动态的方式
08:47
in a really dynamic动态 way.
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去建立“公共-私人”伙伴关系的可能性。
08:49
Even the words that we often经常 use to justify辩解 the "P" part部分,
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我们经常为“P"部分辩解,
08:52
the public上市 part部分 -- well, they're both P's普的 --
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公共(public)部分— — 其实,如果说到去风险化,
08:54
with public-private公私 partnerships伙伴关系
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这可是两个 P — —
08:56
is in terms条款 of de-risking去冒险.
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公共(public)-私人(private)伙伴关系。
08:58
What the public上市 sector扇形 did in all these examples例子
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在我给大家的讲的这些例子里,以及其他更多的领域里
09:00
I just gave you, and there's many许多 more,
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公共部门的作用
09:02
which哪一个 myself and other colleagues同事 have been looking at,
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是我和其他的同事都很关心的。
09:06
is doing much more than de-risking去冒险.
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公共部门的作用不仅仅是去风险化这一点作用。
09:07
It's kind of been taking服用 on that risk风险. Bring带来 it on.
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公共部门也在承担风险,勇往直前。
09:10
It's actually其实 been the one thinking思维 out of the box.
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它实际上也成了创新科技的一部分。
09:13
But also, I'm sure you all have had experience经验
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但同时,我确定你们都和
09:15
with local本地, regional区域性, national国民 governments政府,
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地方级、 区域级以及国家级的政府打过交道。
09:17
and you're kind of like, "You know what, that KafkianKafkian bureaucrat, I've met会见 him."
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你会说,"你知道吧,我见过那个卡夫卡式的官僚。“
09:20
That whole整个 juxtaposition并列 thing, it's kind of there.
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整个(国家与市场)并行的关系其实一直都有的。
09:24
Well, there's a self-fulfilling自我实现 prophecy预言.
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那么,有个自我实现的预言
09:26
By talking about the state as kind of irrelevant不相干,
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是在讲国家是不相干的,
09:28
boring无聊, it's sometimes有时
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呆板的。有的时候
09:30
that we actually其实 create创建 those organizations组织 in that way.
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是我们自己把这些组织机构搞成这个样子的。
09:32
So what we have to actually其实 do is build建立
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所以我们现在要做的就是
09:35
these entrepreneurial创业 state organizations组织.
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把这些国家政府机构建成创业型机构。
09:37
DARPADARPA, that funded资助 the Internet互联网 and SiriSiri的,
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资助互联网和语音控制系统(Siri)的美国国防部高级研究计划局(英文简称是DARPA)
09:39
actually其实 thought really hard about this,
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实际上对风险投资深思熟虑过,
09:41
how to welcome欢迎 failure失败, because you will fail失败.
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如何迎接失败呢,因为你总会有失败的。
09:44
You will fail失败 when you innovative创新.
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你如果勇于创新,肯定有失败的时候。
09:45
One out of 10 experiments实验 has any success成功.
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10次实验中的一次也许会有成功。
09:49
And the V.C. guys know this,
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搞风险投资的人当然知道这些。
09:51
and they're able能够 to actually其实 fund基金 the other losses损失
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他们其实愿意为那些有过一次成功的
09:53
from that one success成功.
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失败者提供资金。
09:55
And this brings带来 me, actually其实, probably大概,
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而这实际上让我觉得
09:56
to the biggest最大 implication意义,
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有非常大的意义。
09:59
and this has huge巨大 implications启示 beyond innovation革新.
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这个意义已经超过了创新科技的巨大影响。
10:02
If the state is more than just a market市场 fixer定影液,
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国家政府不仅仅有市场修复的功能,
10:05
if it actually其实 is a market市场 shaper整形,
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而且有塑造市场的功能。
10:07
and in doing that has had to take on this massive大规模的 risk风险,
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因此,政府需要在创新科技上冒大险
10:10
what happened发生 to the reward奖励?
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那么回报是什么呢?
10:12
We all know, if you've ever taken采取 a finance金融 course课程,
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如果你学过金融课,你会知道
10:14
the first thing you're taught is sort分类 of the risk-reward风险回报 relationship关系,
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你学到的第一课就大概是风险与回报的关系,
10:18
and so some people are foolish enough足够
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因此有些人愚蠢至极
10:19
or probably大概 smart聪明 enough足够 if they have time to wait,
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或者说聪明至极,他们把时间花在
10:22
to actually其实 invest投资 in stocks个股, because they're higher更高 risk风险
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投资股票上,因为股票的风险高
10:24
which哪一个 over time will make a greater更大 reward奖励 than bonds债券,
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所以随之而来的回报也自然高。
10:27
that whole整个 risk-reward风险回报 thing.
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这就是所说的风险回报的关系。
10:28
Well, where's哪里 the reward奖励 for the state
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政府在创新科技上
10:30
of having taken采取 on these massive大规模的 risks风险
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冒了如此大的风险,那么回报在哪里?
10:33
and actually其实 been foolish enough足够 to have doneDONE the Internet互联网?
254
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政府搞什么互联网,是不是傻过了头?
10:35
The Internet互联网 was crazy.
255
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互联网是疯狂的。
10:37
It really was. I mean, the probability可能性 of failure失败 was massive大规模的.
256
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3152
确实是。我的意思说,它带来的失败可能是巨大的。
10:40
You had to be completely全然 nuts坚果 to do it,
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2610
你一定得是个傻子采取给它投资。
10:43
and luckily, they were.
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1781
幸运的是,他们是傻子。
10:45
Now, we don't even get to this question about rewards奖励
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2501
现在,我们还没提到回报这事儿呢。
10:47
unless除非 you actually其实 depict描绘 the state as this risk-taker冒险家.
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除非你把美国政府描绘成冒险家(不想要回报)。
10:51
And the problem问题 is that economists经济学家 often经常 think,
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2601
问题是经济学家们往往认为,
10:54
well, there is a reward奖励 back to the state. It's tax.
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2486
政府当然有回报呀,那些税收呀。
10:57
You know, the companies公司 will pay工资 tax,
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1549
你知道,公司当然会交税,
10:58
the jobs工作 they create创建 will create创建 growth发展
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他们创造就业机会,税收自然会增长。
11:00
so people who get those jobs工作 and their incomes收入 rise上升
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3151
人们得到那些工作,他们的工资得以提高,
11:04
will come back to the state through通过 the tax mechanism机制.
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3224
然后通过交纳税款回报政府。
11:07
Well, unfortunately不幸, that's not true真正.
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可遗憾的是,事实并非如此。
11:09
Okay, it's not true真正 because many许多 of the jobs工作 that are created创建 go abroad国外.
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3519
是的,事实不是这样的,因为许多就业的岗位在国外。
11:12
Globalization全球化, and that's fine. We shouldn't不能 be nationalistic民族主义.
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全球化,这没问题。我们不应该持民族主义态度。
11:15
Let the jobs工作 go where they have to go, perhaps也许.
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也许我们就应该让这些工作岗位安置在合适的地方。
11:17
I mean, one can take a position位置 on that.
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我是说,总有人会受雇上岗吧。
11:20
But also these companies公司
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1664
但这些公司
11:21
that have actually其实 had this massive大规模的 benefit效益 from the state --
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其实从政府那儿得到了巨大的好处。
11:24
Apple's苹果 a great example.
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苹果就是一个很好的例子。
11:26
They even got the first -- well, not the first,
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他们甚至是第一 — — 好吧,也许不是第一,
11:28
but 500,000 dollars美元 actually其实 went to Apple苹果, the company公司,
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4568
但是他们确实通过SBIC计划
11:33
through通过 this SBICSBIC program程序,
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得到了50万美元的资助。
11:35
which哪一个 predated the SBIRSBIR program程序,
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该计划早于后来的SBIR计划。
11:37
as well as, as I said before, all the technologies技术 behind背后 the iPhone苹果手机.
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同样,我交代过,iPhone背后的所有技术(也是来自政府投资)。
11:41
And yet然而 we know they legally法律上,
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但是我们知道在法律上,
11:43
as many许多 other companies公司, pay工资 very little tax back.
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和其他公司一样,苹果公司只需要上缴很少的税款。
11:47
So what we really need to actually其实 rethink反思
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所以我们确实需要重新思考的是
11:50
is should there perhaps也许 be a return-generating回报产生 mechanism机制
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也许需要有一个利润回报机制
11:54
that's much more direct直接 than tax. Why not?
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让这些公司回报比税款更多的资金给政府。为什么不呢?
11:57
It could happen发生 perhaps也许 through通过 equity公平.
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也许可以通过发行股票的方式。
11:59
This, by the way, in the countries国家
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顺便说一下,其他国家
12:01
that are actually其实 thinking思维 about this strategically战略性,
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实际上也在考虑使用这样的方法。
12:04
countries国家 like Finland芬兰 in Scandinavia斯堪的纳维亚,
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比如说芬兰、斯堪的那维亚
12:06
but also in China中国 and Brazil巴西,
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还有中国和巴西。
12:08
they're retaining固定 equity公平 in these investments投资.
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他们的政府持有这些创新公司的股票。
12:10
Sitra希特拉 funded资助 Nokia诺基亚, kept不停 equity公平, made制作 a lot of money,
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希特拉给诺基亚投资,持有他们的股票,赚了很多钱,
12:14
it's a public上市 funding资金 agency机构 in Finland芬兰,
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它是芬兰的一个公共的投资机构。
12:17
which哪一个 then funded资助 the next下一个 round回合 of Nokias诺基亚.
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它后来又资助了诺基亚的下一代产品。
12:19
The Brazilian巴西人 Development发展 Bank银行,
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巴西开发银行
12:21
which哪一个 is providing提供 huge巨大 amounts of funds资金 today今天
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现在提供大量资金
12:24
to clean清洁 technology技术, they just announced公布
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去开发保洁技术。他们刚刚宣布了
12:26
a 56 billion十亿 program程序 for the future未来 on this,
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一个资助未来保洁技术的560 亿的计划。
12:30
is retaining固定 equity公平 in these investments投资.
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他们会保有这些发明的上市股票。
12:34
So to put it provocatively挑逗,
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把它说得诱人些,
12:35
had the U.S. government政府 thought about this,
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美国政府完全可以考虑
12:38
and maybe just brought back
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通过一些所谓的“创新基金”
12:40
just something called an innovation革新 fund基金,
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得到更多的回报。
12:42
you can bet赌注 that, you know, if even just .05 percent百分
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你知道吗,你完全可以打赌,如果仅仅 0.5%
12:46
of the profits利润 from what the Internet互联网 produced生成
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由互联网带来的收益
12:47
had come back to that innovation革新 fund基金,
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回报给“创新基金”的话,
12:49
there would be so much more money
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就会有更多的钱
12:51
to spend today今天 on green绿色 technology技术.
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可以投资到绿色科技上。
12:53
Instead代替, many许多 of the state budgets预算
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可是正相反,许多政府预算
12:55
which哪一个 in theory理论 are trying to do that
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都想这么去做的,
12:57
are being存在 constrained受限.
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可是资金有限。
12:59
But perhaps也许 even more important重要,
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1810
但或许更重要的是,
13:01
we heard听说 before about the one percent百分,
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我们之前听过 1%,
13:03
the 99 percent百分.
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99%。
13:04
If the state is thought about in this more strategic战略 way,
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如果美国政府能够更有战略眼光,
13:08
as one of the lead players玩家 in the value creation创建 mechanism机制,
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成为价值生成机制的主导者该有多好。
13:11
because that's what we're talking about, right?
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这就是我们在讨论的重点,对吧?
13:13
Who are the different不同 players玩家 in creating创建 value
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谁在市场经济中充当创造价值的特殊一员?
13:15
in the economy经济, and is the state's状态 role角色,
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考虑到政府的作用,
13:17
has it been sort分类 of dismissed驳回 as being存在 a backseat后座 player播放机?
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3729
政府是不是成了市场经济中的候补队员了?
13:21
If we can actually其实 have a broader更广泛 theory理论
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2355
实际上,如果我们有一个更广义的
13:23
of value creation创建 and allow允许 us to actually其实 admit承认
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价值生成理论,我们可以允许
13:25
what the state has been doing and reap收割 something back,
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政府对科技投资,以期回报。
13:28
it might威力 just be that in the next下一个 round回合,
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也许下一轮的科技创新时,我们就可以这样做。
13:31
and I hope希望 that we all hope希望 that the next下一个 big revolution革命
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我希望我们期待的下一个巨大变革
13:34
will in fact事实 be green绿色,
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会真的是绿色革命。
13:35
that that period of growth发展
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那个时期的经济增长,
13:37
will not only be smart聪明, innovation-led以创新为导向,
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不仅是智能的、 创新主导的、
13:40
not only green绿色, but also more inclusive包括的,
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不仅是绿色的,更应该是包容的,
13:43
so that the public上市 schools学校 in places地方 like Silicon Valley
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这样,像在硅谷的那些公立学校
13:46
can actually其实 also benefit效益 from that growth发展,
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就可以从经济增长中直接受益。
13:49
because they have not.
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但是他们还没有受益。
13:50
Thank you.
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谢谢。
13:52
(Applause掌声)
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(掌声)
Translated by Lin Piao
Reviewed by Lee Li

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Mariana Mazzucato - Innovation economist
Which actor in the economy is most responsible for making radical innovation happen? Mariana Mazzucato comes up with a surprising answer: the state.

Why you should listen

States and governments are often depicted as slow, bureaucratic, risk-averse. That argument is used in support of making states smaller and the private sector bigger. In her latest book, The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Private vs. Public Myths in Innovation and in her research, Mariana Mazzucato offers a bold contrarian view: States aren't only market regulators and fixers, but "market makers" -- actively creating a vision for innovation and investing in risky and uncertain areas where private capital may not see the ROI. Yes: Private venture capital is much less risk-taking than generally thought. As an example, the technology behind the iPhone and Google exists because the U.S. government has been very interventionist in funding innovation. Private investors jumped in only later. The same is true today of what promises to be the next big thing after the Internet: the green revolution.

Mazzucato, a professor of economics at the Science and Technology Policy Research Unit (SPRU, University of Sussex), argues that Europe needs today to rediscover that role -- that what the continent needs is not austerity but strategic investments (and new instruments such as public investments banks) towards an "innovation Union."

More profile about the speaker
Mariana Mazzucato | Speaker | TED.com

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