TED2006
Dan Dennett: Let's teach religion -- all religion -- in schools
丹狄奈特回應里克·沃倫
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哲學家丹狄奈特呼籲學校應該一視同仁傳授所有宗教思想，使吾人了解宗教也是一種自然現象。奈特反駁沃倫在其著作《標竿人生》中的主張：欲達高尚之道德，必先拒斥演化理論
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientist
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:26
It's wonderful to be back.
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回到講台的感覺真好
00:29
I love this wonderful gathering.
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很開心和大家聚首
00:32
And you must be wondering, "What on Earth?
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你們一定覺得奇怪，"搞什麼？"
00:34
Have they put up the wrong slide?"
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投影片是不是放錯了？
00:36
No, no.
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當然不是
00:38
Look at this magnificent beast and ask the question -- who designed it?
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看看這隻美麗的動物， 不禁想問，是誰的傑作？
00:45
This is TED.
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歡迎來到TED
00:47
This is Technology, Entertainment, Design and there's a dairy cow.
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TED分別代表科技、娛樂及設計，還有一隻乳牛
00:54
It's a quite wonderfully designed animal.
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乳牛的確是一個相當精彩的設計
00:58
And I was thinking, how do I introduce this?
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我一直煩惱要怎麼介紹牠才好？
01:00
And I thought, well, maybe that old doggerel by Joyce Kilmer,
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後來想到喬伊斯·基爾默那首打油詩
01:05
you know: "Poems are made by fools like me,
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「詩詞歌賦我最行，我乃蠢蛋第一號
01:07
but only God can make a tree."
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花草樹木誰能造？唯有神明最可靠」
01:09
And you might say, "Well, God designed the cow."
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你們也許會說"神創造了乳牛"
01:12
But, of course, God got a lot of help.
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不過，神當然還有其他幫手
01:16
This is the ancestor of cattle.
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這是牛的祖先
01:19
This is the Oryx.
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叫做大羚羊
01:21
And it was designed by natural selection,
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是「物競天擇」後的產物
01:23
the process of natural selection, over many millions of years.
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歷經數百萬年演化而來
01:27
And then it became domesticated thousands of years ago.
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人類於幾千年前馴化了羚羊
01:32
And human beings became its stewards,
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負責照顧並飼養羚羊
01:37
and, without even knowing what they were doing,
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人類在不知不覺當中
01:39
they gradually redesigned it and redesigned it and redesigned it.
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參與了新一代羚羊的不斷演化
01:43
And then, more recently, they really began
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近來，人類確實開始採用
01:46
to do sort of reverse engineering on this beast
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類似「逆向工程」的作法
01:49
and figure out just what the parts were, how they worked
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探究羚羊全身各部器官及其運作方式
01:52
and how they might be optimized -- how they might be made better.
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找出強化其功能的方法
01:57
Now why am I talking about cows?
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我為什麼提到牛呢？
02:01
Because I want to say that much the same thing is true of religions.
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我要說的是，宗教的演變過程就跟牛一樣
02:06
Religions are natural phenomena.
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是一種自然現象
02:09
They're just as natural as cows.
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宗教跟牛都是自然演變的結果
02:11
They have evolved over millennia.
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經過數千年的演進而來
02:15
They have a biological base, just like the Oryx.
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跟大羚羊一樣具有生物性
02:20
They have become domesticated, and human beings
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宗教也被人類馴化，過去幾千年來
02:23
have been redesigning their religions for thousands of years.
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人類不斷重新設計他們的宗教
02:29
This is TED, and I want to talk about design.
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這裡我想把重點放在「設計」
02:33
Because what I've been doing for the last four years,
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打從四年前我開始進行一項研究
02:36
really since the first time you saw me -- some of you saw me at TED
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當時有些在座的聽眾在這裡初次見到我
02:38
when I was talking about religion, and in the last four years
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談論宗教這個題目，四年來
02:42
I've been working just about non-stop on this topic.
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我不間斷地努力研究
02:45
And you might say it's about the reverse engineering of religions.
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可稱之為宗教版的「生物逆向工程」
02:51
Now that very idea, I think, strikes terror in many people,
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我想這個說法會令許多人感到惶恐
02:57
or anger, or anxiety of one sort or another.
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氣憤，或憂慮之類的
03:02
And that is the spell that I want to break.
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這就是我想打破的迷思
03:05
I want to say, no, religions are an important natural phenomenon.
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我主張，宗教是一種重要的自然現象
03:09
We should study them with the same intensity
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我們研究宗教，應該也要充滿熱忱
03:12
that we study all the other important natural phenomena,
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如同我們研究其它重要自然現象一樣
03:15
like global warming, as we heard so eloquently last night from Al Gore.
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比如全球暖化，誠如昨晚高爾先生所談到的
03:19
Today's religions are brilliantly designed -- brilliantly designed.
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現代宗教可謂設計的無懈可擊、非常出色
03:24
They're immensely powerful social institutions
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屬於非常強力的社會制度
03:28
and many of their features can be traced back to earlier features
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它有許多特徵可利用「生物逆向工程」
03:34
that we can really make sense of by reverse engineering.
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查明並追溯出它的早期特徵
03:39
And, as with the cow, there's a mixture of evolutionary design,
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宗教像牛一樣，是「演化設計」和「智慧設計」的混合物
03:44
designed by natural selection itself, and intelligent design --
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「演化設計」來自自然淘汰，而「智慧設計」--
03:49
more or less intelligent design -- and redesigned by human beings
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或多或少
03:53
who are trying to redesign their religions.
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是由不斷試著重新設計宗教的人類一手打造
03:58
You don't do book talks at TED, but I'm going to have just one slide
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我們在TED不講書評，但我還是想秀一張
04:03
about my book, because there is one message in it
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關於我的書的投影片，裡頭有一個重點
04:07
which I think this group really needs to hear.
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我認為在場諸位必須了解
04:10
And I would be very interested to get your responses to this.
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我也很想聽聽大家對此有什麼意見
04:15
It's the one policy proposal that I make in the book,
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我在書中提到一個政策建議
04:19
at this time when I claim not to know enough about religion
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以我當時有限的宗教知識
04:23
to know what other policy proposals to make.
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算是我唯一端得出來的建議了
04:25
And it's one that echoes remarks that you've heard already today.
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我所要講的這個重點可以呼應你們今晚所聽的內容
04:30
Here's my proposal.
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先說一下我的政策建議
04:32
I'm going to just take a couple of minutes to explain it --
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這要花幾分鐘的時間解釋
04:34
education in world religions, on world religions, for all of our children in primary school,
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我國的小學、中學、公私立學校及家庭中
04:41
in high school, in public schools, in private schools and in home schooling.
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都要教學生認識世界各大宗教
04:46
So what I'm proposing is,
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我的建議是
04:48
just as we require reading, writing, arithmetic, American history,
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就像讀、寫、算術及本國歷史
04:54
so we should have a curriculum on facts
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課程內容也應該納入
04:58
about all the religions of the world --
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世界宗教知識
05:00
about their history, about their creeds, about their texts,
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介紹各宗教的歷史沿革、教義和經典
05:06
their music, their symbolisms, their prohibitions, their requirements.
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以及音樂、符號、禁令、清規…等等
05:11
And this should be presented factually, straightforwardly,
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內容必須有事實根據，直言不諱
05:16
with no particular spin, to all of the children in the country.
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不帶偏見地介紹給我國學童
05:23
And as long as you teach them that,
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只要教會他們這些
05:26
you can teach them anything else you like.
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你要教什麼別的東西都行
05:29
That, I think, is maximal tolerance for religious freedom.
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我想，這正是給予宗教自由最大的空間
05:34
As long as you inform your children about other religions,
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只要也讓孩子認識其它的宗教信仰
05:39
then you may -- and as early as you like and whatever you like --
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父母就可以在任何時候
05:42
teach them whatever creed you want them to learn.
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教給孩子任何父母想要他們學習的宗教信仰
05:45
But also let them know about other religions.
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同時也讓孩子了解其它宗教信仰
05:48
Now why do I say that?
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我為什麼這樣講呢？
05:52
Because democracy depends on an informed citizenship.
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因為民主制度取決於一國公民能否充分獲得資訊
05:59
Informed consent is the very bedrock
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知情同意原則
06:02
of our understanding of democracy.
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是我們建立民主素養的根本
06:06
Misinformed consent is not worth it.
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在不知情的情況下所作的決定並無意義
06:10
It's like a coin flip; it doesn't count really.
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就像擲硬幣作決定一樣毫無意義可言
06:13
Democracy depends on informed consent.
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民主制度以人民知情同意為基石
06:16
This is the way we treat people as responsible adults.
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視人民為能挑起責任的成年人
06:20
Now, children below the age of consent are a special case.
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不過，未成年的小孩是特例
06:30
I'm going to use a word that Pastor Rick just used --
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我想引用華理克牧師的說法--
06:36
parents are stewards of their children.
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父母雖然是子女的監護人
06:38
They don't own them.
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但子女並非父母的財產
06:41
You can't own your children.
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你無法擁有你的子女
06:43
You have a responsibility to the world,
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為人父母者，有義務
06:46
to the state, to them, to take care of them right.
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履行他們對世界、對國家以及照顧子女的職責
06:52
You may teach them whatever creed you think is most important,
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父母可以教導孩子他們認為最重要的宗教信仰
06:58
but I say you have a responsibility to let them be informed
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不過，我主張父母也有責任讓孩子認識
07:03
about all the other creeds in the world, too.
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世界上其它宗教
07:07
The reason I've taken this time is I've been fascinated to hear
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我之所以花這麼多時間談我的觀點，
07:11
some of the reactions to this.
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是因為有些人對此的反應蠻有意思的
07:14
One reviewer for a Roman Catholic newspaper called it "totalitarian."
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有一位天主教報紙的評論家，稱此觀點為「極權主義」
07:21
It strikes me as practically libertarian.
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我倒認為這是比較自由主義論派的
07:26
Is it totalitarian to require reading, writing and arithmetic?
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要求學生學習讀寫算數是哪門子極權主義？
07:29
I don't think so.
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沒這回事
07:31
All I'm saying is -- facts. Facts only.
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我只要求老師教真實的知識
07:35
No values, just facts about all the world's religions.
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不批判，只提供真實的宗教知識
07:41
Another reviewer called it "hilarious."
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另一位評論家以「可笑至極」來形容這個論點
07:44
Well, I'm really bothered by the fact
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這個嘛，我實在難以置信
07:48
that anybody would think that was hilarious.
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竟有人認為這個論點可笑
07:51
It seems to me to be such a plausible,
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對我來說，這個論點似乎很合理
07:55
natural extension of the democratic principles we already have,
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從我們已有的民主原則自然延伸而來
07:59
that I'm shocked to think anybody would find that just ridiculous.
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因此我很驚訝，竟然會有人說它可笑
08:05
I know many religions are so anxious about preserving the purity
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我知道有許多宗教，非常在意
08:12
of their faith among their children that they are intent
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小孩子在宗教信仰上的「單純性」
08:17
on keeping their children ignorant of other faiths.
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因此不讓他們知道其他的宗教信仰
08:22
I don't think that's defensible, but I'd really be pleased
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我認為這種作法完全站不住腳，不過我很樂意
08:26
to get your answers on that -- any reactions to that -- later.
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聽聽各位的意見，葷素不忌，先等我講完再來聊
08:29
But now I'm going to move on.
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言歸正傳
08:31
Back to the cow.
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我們再來講這隻牛
08:33
This picture, which I pulled off the web --
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這張照片是我從網路下載的
08:36
the fellow on the left is really an important part of this picture.
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左邊這個人是照片很重要的一部分
08:39
That's the steward.
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他負責照顧牛
08:41
Cows couldn't live without human stewards -- they're domesticated.
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少了人類照顧，牛也活不了，因為牠們已被人類馴化
08:46
They're a sort of ectosymbiont.
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人與牛之間形成一種共生關係
08:50
They depend on us for their survival.
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牛仰賴人類而生存
08:55
And Pastor Rick was just talking about sheep.
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華理克牧師剛剛講到羊
08:58
I'm going to talk about sheep, too.
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我也要談羊
09:00
There's a lot of serendipitous convergence here.
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人與羊之間發展出高度的趨同演化關係
09:04
How clever it was of sheep to acquire shepherds!
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羊竟然聰明到懂得跟牧羊人共同生活！
09:10
Think of what this got them.
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看看這些羊得到了什麼
09:12
They could outsource all their problems --
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牠們把所有的難題都「外包」了
09:15
protection from predators, food finding, health maintenance.
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譬如，免受掠食者威脅、覓食、保持健康等等
09:22
The only cost in most flocks is a loss of free mating.
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羊群唯一付出的代價就是無法自由交配
09:29
What a deal.
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很划算吧！
09:31
"How clever of sheep!" you might say.
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你或許會說，羊好聰明！
09:33
Except, of course, it wasn't the sheep's cleverness.
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不過，不是羊聰明
09:35
We all know sheep are not exactly rocket scientists -- they're not very smart.
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誰都曉得羊這種動物呆呆的，談不上聰明
09:40
It wasn't the cleverness of the sheep at all.
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這整件事情完全不是因為羊的智慧
09:43
They were clueless.
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羊對這些事一無所知
09:45
But it was a very clever move.
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不過，羊自願被人馴養的確非常高明
09:48
Whose clever move was it?
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但，聰明的是誰呢？
09:50
It was a clever move of natural selection itself.
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當然是自然淘汰的過程本身
09:53
Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of the structure of DNA
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與吉姆·華生共同發現DNA雙螺旋結構的法蘭西斯·克里克
09:59
with Jim Watson, once joked about what he called Orgel's Second Rule.
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曾頑皮地以傑出分子生物學家雷斯利·奥吉爾的名字
10:04
Leslie Orgel is still a molecular biologist, brilliant guy,
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為所謂「奥吉爾第二定律」命名
10:10
and Orgel's Second Rule is: Evolution is cleverer than you are.
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這個定律就是「演化比你還聰明」
10:14
Now, that is not Intelligent Design -- not from Francis Crick.
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克里克指的肯定不是「智慧設計」
10:21
Evolution is cleverer than you are.
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演化肯定比你聰明
10:23
If you understand Orgel's Second Rule, then you understand
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只要理解奥吉爾第二定律
10:26
why the Intelligent Design movement is basically a hoax.
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就會知道「智慧設計」根本是騙局一場
10:33
The designs discovered by the process of natural selection
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「自然淘汰」過程中展現的各種設計
10:37
are brilliant, unbelievably brilliant.
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非常了不起，令人難以置信
10:40
Again and again biologists are fascinated with the brilliance of what's discovered.
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一次又一次，令生物學家嘆為觀止
10:45
But the process itself is without purpose,
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不過，「自然淘汰」本身不具任何意圖
10:48
without foresight, without design.
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也沒有什麼預先的規劃
10:51
When I was here four years ago,
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四年前，我在TED
10:53
I told the story about an ant climbing a blade of grass.
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講過螞蟻爬草的故事
10:55
And why was the ant doing it?
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螞蟻為什麼要爬草呢？
10:57
Well, it's because its brain had been infected with a lancet fluke that was --
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這麼說吧，螞蟻的腦子感染了柳葉吸蟲（lancet fluke）
11:02
needed to get into the belly of a sheep or a cow in order to reproduce.
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這種蟲必須在羊或牛的體內繁殖，因此讓螞蟻爬上草，給牛羊吃下肚
11:07
It was sort of a spooky story.
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聽起來有點嚇人
11:09
And I think some people may have misunderstood.
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不過，請不要誤會了
11:11
Lancet flukes aren't smart.
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柳葉吸蟲一點都不聰明
11:13
I submit that the intelligence of a lancet fluke is down there
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我認為這種蟲的智商
11:18
somewhere between petunia and carrot.
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頂多介於牽牛花與紅蘿蔔之間
11:20
They're not really bright. They don't have to be.
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牠們並不聰明，也用不著聰明
11:22
The lesson we learn from this is
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這個故事告訴我們
11:24
you don't have to have a mind to be a beneficiary.
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沒大腦的生物仍然可以得到好處
11:27
The design is there in nature, but it's not in anybody's head.
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大自然的確存在某種設計，但並非出自任何人之手
11:32
It doesn't have to be.
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因為沒這個必要
11:34
That's the way evolution works.
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這就是演化
11:36
The question -- was domestication good for sheep?
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問題是，馴化對羊有益嗎？
11:38
It was great for their genetic fitness.
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應該說，對羊的「遺傳適合度」大有助益
11:40
And here I want to remind you of a wonderful point
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我想讓各位重溫一個超棒的觀點
11:44
that Paul MacCready made at TED three years ago.
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是三年前，麥可格雷迪在TED提出來的
11:47
Here's what he said.
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他說
11:49
10,000 years ago at the dawn of agriculture,
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一萬年前農業文明剛剛萌芽的時候
11:52
human population, plus livestock and pets, was approximately
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全世界人口、家畜以及寵物合計
11:55
a tenth of one per cent of the terrestrial vertebrae landmass.
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大約只佔「陸生脊椎動物」總數的0.1%左右
12:00
That was just 10,000 years ago.
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這不過是一萬年前的景況
12:02
Yesterday, in biological terms.
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從生物史看來就像昨天一樣近
12:05
What is it today? Does anybody remember what he told us?
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現在呢？ 有沒有人記得麥克格雷迪是怎麼講的？
12:09
98 percent.
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他說是98%
12:11
That is what we have done on this planet.
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地球是這樣的受到了我們的影響
12:14
Now, I talked to Paul afterwards.
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我後來訪問了麥克格雷迪
12:16
I wanted to check to find out how he'd calculated this,
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想知道他是如何得出這個數字的
12:18
and get the sources and so forth.
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並向他求證資料來源等等
12:20
And he gave me a paper that he had written on this.
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他給我看了他寫的一篇關於這個題目的文章
12:23
There was a passage in it which he did not present here
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文章中有一段話，他演講裡沒提到
12:25
and I think it is so good I'm going to read it to you.
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這段話很有參考價值，我唸給各位聽
12:28
"Over billions of years on a unique sphere,
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「幾十億年前，在某一顆星球上
12:31
chance has painted a thin covering of life:
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偶然冒出了小量的生物，覆蓋在地面上
12:34
complex, improbable, wonderful and fragile.
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這些生物結構複雜、外型奇特、既美麗又脆弱
12:38
Suddenly, we humans, a recently arrived species
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忽然間，人類，一個不久前才出現的物種
12:41
no longer subject to the checks and balances inherent in nature,
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全然不受自然界的制衡
12:44
have grown in population, technology and intelligence to a position of terrible power.
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除了數量激增，還快速發展出具有可怕力量的科技文明
12:49
We now wield the paintbrush."
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此刻主導權握在我們手中。」
12:52
We heard about the atmosphere as a thin layer of varnish.
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有人將大氣層比喻為一層薄薄的亮光漆
12:55
Life itself is just a thin coat of paint on this planet.
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生物則是地球上那一層薄薄的油漆
12:59
And we're the ones that hold the paintbrush.
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而今是我們拿著油漆刷(主導權)
13:01
And how can we do that?
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這是怎麼來的？
13:04
The key to our domination of the planet is culture,
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人類統治地球的關鍵在文化
13:08
and the key to culture is religion.
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而文化的關鍵則是宗教
13:11
Suppose Martian scientists came to Earth.
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假設火星上的科學家來到地球
13:14
They would be puzzled by many things.
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一定會對地球上的許多現象感到迷惑
13:19
Anybody know what this is?
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有沒有人知道這是什麼？
13:21
I'll tell you what it is.
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我告訴你們
13:23
This is a million people gathering on the banks of the Ganges in 2001,
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這是2001年恆河兩岸聚集上百萬人的盛況
13:27
perhaps the largest single gathering of human beings ever,
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可能是有史以來最多人同時齊聚一堂的紀錄
13:31
as seen from satellite photograph.
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就像各位在衛星照片看到的那樣
13:33
Here's a big crowd.
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簡直人山人海
13:34
Here's another crowd in Mecca.
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在聖地麥加也是同樣情形
13:36
Martians would be amazed by this.
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火星人應該會感到難以置信
13:39
They'd want to know how it originated, what it was for and how it perpetuates itself.
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他們應該會好奇當初是如何開始的？有什麼目的？如何歷久不衰？
13:44
Actually, I'm going to pass over this.
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這張我先跳過去
13:47
The ant isn't alone.
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除了螞蟻之外
13:49
There's all sorts of wonderful cases of species.
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還有很多類似的例子
13:52
In that case, a parasite gets into a mouse
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譬如，這隻寄生蟲感染了老鼠
13:58
and it needs to get into the belly of a cat.
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寄生蟲必須進入猫的腹部才能繁殖
14:00
And it turns the mouse into Mighty Mouse -- it makes it fearless,
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於是牠讓老鼠變得像「太空飛鼠」一樣勇往直前
14:02
so it runs out in the open, where it'll be eaten by a cat.
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自己送上門給猫吃
14:05
True story.
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我沒蓋你們！
14:07
In other words, we have these hijackers --
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換句話說，生物界也有劫機犯
14:09
you've seen this slide before, from four years ago --
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這張圖片我四年前曾經秀給大家看過
14:12
a parasite that infects the brain
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寄生蟲感染了宿主腦部
14:14
and induces even suicidal behavior on behalf of a cause
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使宿主作出甚至是自殺的行為
14:17
other than one's own genetic fitness.
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反而不利於宿主的遺傳適合度
14:19
Does that ever happen to us?
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人類也會發生這種事嗎？
14:22
Yes, it does -- quite wonderfully.
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會！而且相當神奇
14:27
The Arabic word "Islam" means "submission."
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「伊斯蘭(Islam)」在阿拉伯語裡是順從的意思
14:29
It means "surrender of self-interest to the will of Allah."
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意思是說，教徒要把自身的利益交託給「阿拉」
14:32
But I'm not just talking about Islam.
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我指的不只是伊斯蘭教
14:34
I'm talking also about Christianity.
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還有基督教
14:36
This is a parchment music page that I found in a Paris bookstall 50 years ago.
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這張樂譜是我50年前在巴黎某書報攤上找到的
14:41
And on it it says, in Latin:
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上面用拉丁文寫著：
14:44
"Semen est verbum Dei. Sator autem Christus.
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（拉丁文）
14:47
The word of God is the seed and the sower of the seed is Christ."
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「上帝的話是種子，播種之人乃是基督」
14:51
Same idea! Well, not quite.
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與「伊斯蘭」的意思很像，但不完全一樣
14:53
But in fact, Christians, too, glory in the fact that they have surrendered to God.
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事實上，基督徒對「順服上帝」感到光榮
15:02
I'll give you a few quotes.
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我先引用幾句話給各位參考
15:03
"The heart of worship is surrender.
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「當用敬拜的心降服於神，
15:06
Surrendered people obey God's words, even if it doesn't make sense."
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神的旨意縱使不合情理，降服之人也會遵從。」
15:11
Those words are by Rick Warren.
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這幾句話都是華理克牧師寫的
15:13
Those are from "The Purpose Driven Life."
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引文選自他的《標竿人生》這本書
15:17
And I want to turn now, briefly, to talk about that book, which I've read.
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我讀了這本書，現在我想稍微談一下
15:20
You've all got a copy.
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各位手上都有這本書
15:22
You've just heard the man.
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方才也聽過他的演講
15:24
And what I want to do now is say a bit about this book from the design standpoint,
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我現在打算從設計的角度來談談這本書
15:29
because I think it's actually a brilliant book.
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因為我覺得這本書寫的很棒
15:32
First of all, the goal.
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首先，是這本書的宗旨
15:34
And you heard just now what the goal is.
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各位剛剛都聽過了對吧？
15:36
It's to bring purpose to the lives of millions, and he has succeeded.
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本書的宗旨是要為人生建立「標竿」，他也成功做到這點
15:39
Is it a good goal?
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這算好宗旨嗎？
15:41
In itself, I'm sure we all agree, it is a wonderful goal.
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大家應該都同意，此宗旨本身是好的
15:43
He's absolutely right.
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華理克牧師講的沒錯
15:45
There are lots of people out there who don't have purpose in their life,
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許多人的一生毫無「標竿」可言
15:48
and bringing purpose to their life is a wonderful goal.
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為他們的人生建立「標竿」是非常好的寫作宗旨
15:51
I give him an A+ on this.
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這一點我給華理克牧師打一百分
15:55
Is the goal achieved?
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這個宗旨有達成嗎？
15:58
Yes.
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達成了
16:00
30 million copies of this book.
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這本書賣了三千萬本
16:05
Al Gore, eat your heart out.
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高爾(美國前副總統)應該羨慕死了！
16:07
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
16:10
Just exactly what Al is trying to do, Rick is doing.
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高爾想做的事，華理克牧師已經在做了
16:14
This is a fantastic achievement.
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這是了不起的成就
16:17
And, the means -- how does he do it?
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華理克牧師怎麼做到的呢？
16:22
It's a brilliant redesign of traditional religious themes --
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他非常聰明地重新設計了傳統宗教命題
16:25
updating them, quietly dropping obsolete features,
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以符合現代需求，並將過時的部分悄悄去除
16:28
putting new interpretations on other features.
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重新詮釋某些概念
16:30
This is the evolution of religion that's been going on for thousands of years,
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這是幾千年來的宗教演化方式
16:33
and he's just the latest brilliant practitioner of it.
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華理克牧師是這場宗教演化過程的最新參與者
16:38
I don't have to tell you this.
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這點，各位已經知道了
16:40
You've just heard the man.
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你們聽過他的演講
16:42
Excellent insights into human psychology, wise advice on every page.
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他洞察人心，字字珠璣
16:46
Moreover, he invites us to look under the hood.
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他請讀者找出他葫蘆裡賣什麼藥
16:50
I really appreciated that.
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我很欣賞這一點
16:52
For instance, he has an appendix where he explains
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舉例來說，書裡的附錄解釋了
16:54
his choice of translations of different Bible verses.
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他如何選擇書中引用的聖經經節譯本
16:57
The book is clear, vivid, accessible, beautifully formatted.
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這本書清晰易懂，版面設計十分美觀
17:04
Just enough repetition.
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重複的地方恰到好處
17:06
That's really important.
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這點很重要
17:08
Every time you read it or say it, you make another copy in your brain.
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每唸一次，就更加熟悉
17:13
Every time you read it or say it, you make another copy in your brain.
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每唸一次，就更加熟悉
17:17
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
17:18
With me, everybody -- every time you read it or say it,
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大家跟著我說一遍，每唸一次...
17:22
you make another copy in your brain.
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就更加熟悉
17:24
Thank you.
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謝謝
17:26
And now we come to my problem.
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接下來我想提出一些疑問
17:28
Because I'm absolutely sincere in my appreciation
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由於我對這本書的讚賞
17:32
of all that I've said about this book.
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都發自肺腑
17:34
But I wish it were better.
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因此希望這本書可以更好
17:36
I have some problems with the book.
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我有些疑問
17:38
And it would just be insincere of me not to address those problems.
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要是不提出來的話，就是不負責任
17:42
I wish he could do this with a revision,
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我希望華理克牧師可以在修訂本當中
17:46
a Mark 2 version of his book.
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處理這些問題
17:50
"The truth will set you free" --
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「真理必叫你們得以自由」
17:52
that's what it says in the Bible, and it's something that I want to live by, too.
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這句話出自聖經，也是我的座右銘
17:57
My problem is, some of the bits in it I don't think are true.
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但是我對書中某些觀點不太認同
18:02
Now some of this is a difference of opinion,
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有些只是意見上的分歧
18:07
and that's not my main complaint.
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並非我想討論的重點
18:09
That's worth mentioning.
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我得強調這一點
18:11
Here's a passage -- it's very much what he said, anyway.
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這兒我以書裡頭的一段話為例
18:13
"If there was no God we would all be accidents,
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「假如沒有神，我們的出現就只是一種偶然，
18:15
the result of astronomical random chance in the Universe.
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是宇宙中隨機出現的產物
18:18
You could stop reading this book because life
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果真如此，你大可不必繼續讀下去，
18:21
would have no purpose or meaning or significance.
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因為人生變得失去目標、沒有意義、也微不足道，
18:24
There would be no right or wrong and no hope beyond your brief years on Earth."
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人生沒有對或錯，短暫的生命完結後不再有盼望」
18:27
Now, I just do not believe that.
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我認為，並非如此
18:29
By the way, I find Homer Groening's film
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而且我發現霍默·格勒寧的電影
18:33
presented a beautiful alternative to that very claim.
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提供了另一種美好的選擇
18:37
Yes, there is meaning and a reason for right or wrong.
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沒錯，無論對錯，背後都有它的道理
18:41
We don't need a belief in God to be good or to have meaning in us.
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要當好人或過有意義的人生，未必一定要信神
18:47
But that is just a difference of opinion.
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不過，這只是意見上的分歧而已
18:52
That's not what I'm really worried about.
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我擔心的不是這個
18:54
How about this -- "God designed this planet's environment just so we could live in it."
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再聽聽這個：「神將地球設計成適合人類居住的環境。」
19:00
I'm afraid that a lot of people take that sentiment to mean
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我擔心許多人誤解這句話的本意
19:05
that we don't have to do the sorts of things that Al Gore
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以為我們可以忽視高爾
19:07
is trying so hard to get us to do.
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鼓吹我們去做的環保行動
19:09
I'm not happy with that sentiment at all.
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這種看法讓我很不滿
19:12
And then I find this -- "All the evidence available in the biological sciences
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還有這個例子：「所有生物學提出的證據
19:16
supports the core proposition that the cosmos is especially designed whole
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都證明宇宙是設計成一個整體
19:20
with life and mankind as its fundamental goal and purpose,
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主要針對生命體與人類而設計出來的
19:23
a whole in which all facets of reality have their meaning
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宇宙中一切事物的意義與詮釋，
19:25
and explanation in this central fact."
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皆奉這個宗旨為圭臬。」
19:27
Well, that's Michael Denton. He's a creationist.
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創造論者邁克爾·登頓所寫的這段話
19:30
And here I think, "Wait a minute."
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使我反覆思量
19:33
I read this again.
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我重讀一遍
19:35
I read it three or four times and I think,
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反覆讀了三四遍後我自問
19:37
"Is he really endorsing intelligent design?
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他究竟是主張「智慧設計論」
19:39
Is he endorsing creationism here?"
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還是主張「創造論」呢？
19:41
And you can't tell.
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實在難以分辨
19:43
So I'm sort of thinking, "Well, I don't know,
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我自己是覺得：我不曉得
19:45
I don't know if I want to get upset with this yet."
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還是先別為了這個問題而自尋煩惱吧
19:47
But then I read on and I read this: "First, Noah had never seen rain,
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我接著讀到這段話：「首先，諾亞根本沒見過雨水，
19:51
because prior to the flood God irrigated the earth from the ground up."
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因為大洪水以前上帝使水從地裡冒出來灌溉大地。」
19:56
I wish that sentence weren't in there, because I think it is false.
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我很惋惜他這麼說，因為我認為他說錯了
20:01
And I think that thinking this way about the history of the planet,
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我認為這句話的思維
20:04
after we've just been hearing about the history
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就是我們剛剛聽到的
20:07
of the planet over millions of years,
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關於地球數百萬年歷史的思維
20:11
discourages people from scientific understanding.
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導致人們無法從科學角度來理解現象
20:14
Now, Rick Warren uses scientific terms and scientific factoids
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華理克牧師在《標竿人生》中以一種「很有趣」的方式
20:22
and information in a very interesting way.
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運用科學術語與各種資料說明他的理念
20:25
Here's one: "God deliberately shaped and formed you to serve him
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舉例來講，他說：「神刻意將你塑造成獨一無二的人
20:28
in a way that makes your ministry unique.
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使你發揮獨特的才能來服事他
20:30
He carefully mixed the DNA cocktail that created you."
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他費心地調配基因組合才造出獨特的你。」
20:37
I think that's false.
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我倒不這麼認為
20:40
Now maybe we want to treat it as metaphorical.
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也許我們可以將之視為一個隱喻
20:43
Here's another one -- "For instance, your brain can store 100 trillion facts.
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還有這句話：「譬如，人腦可以儲存一百萬億個訊息
20:47
Your mind can handle 15,000 decisions a second."
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我們可以在一秒鐘內做出一萬五千個決定。」
20:50
Well, it would be interesting to find the interpretation where I would accept that.
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這類陳述還真讓人難以接受
20:54
There might be some way of treating that as true.
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說不定在「某些情況」下也有可能成立吧
20:57
"Anthropologists have noted that worship is a universal urge,
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還有這句：「人類學家指出，神祇崇拜是人類共同的內在需求，
21:01
hardwired by God into the very fiber of our being,
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神將這種本能需求輸入我們的本質，
21:04
an inbuilt need to connect with God."
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使我們必須與神相通。」
21:08
Well, there's a sense which I agree with him,
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這一點我同意
21:10
except I think it has an evolutionary explanation.
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不過，用演化論就足以說明了
21:12
And what I find deeply troubling in this book
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這本書令我深感不安之處在於
21:16
is that he seems to be arguing that if you want to be moral,
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作者似乎認為人若要培養道德
21:20
if you want to have meaning in your life,
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或創造有意義的人生
21:22
you have to be an Intelligent Designer -- you have to deny
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唯有相信智慧設計論
21:26
the theory of evolution by natural selection.
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偋棄自然淘汰的演化論學說
21:29
And I think, on the contrary, that it is very important to solving
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相反地，我認為要解決世上一切難題
21:32
the world's problems that we take evolutionary biology seriously.
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首先必須嚴肅看待演化生物學
21:37
Whose truth are we going to listen to?
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問題是要相信誰的「真理」？
21:40
Well, this from "The Purpose Driven Life" --
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下面這段話同樣出自《標竿人生》：
21:43
"The Bible must become the authoritative standard for my life,
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「聖經必是我人生的最高準則，
21:46
the compass I rely on for direction, the counsel I listen to
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也是引導我人生方向的指南針，我的人生導師
21:49
for making wise decisions and the benchmark I use for evaluating everything."
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更是我作決定與評斷一切的準繩。」
21:53
Well maybe, OK, but what's going to follow from this?
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這樣說也可以，但是這種想法，會導致什麼結果呢？
21:58
And here's one that does concern me.
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下一個例子讓我更不安
22:02
Remember I quoted him before with this line --
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記得我前面引用過他這句話嗎？
22:05
"Surrendered people obey God's word, even if it doesn't make sense."
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「神的旨意縱使不合情理，降服之人也會遵從。」
22:10
And that's a problem.
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這的確是有問題的
22:15
"Don't ever argue with the Devil.
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還有這一句：「絕不要與魔鬼爭論，
22:17
He's better at arguing than you are, having had thousands of years to practice."
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他絕對比你厲害，畢竟都練習幾千年了。」
22:21
Now Rick Warren didn't invent this clever move.
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這種策略並不是華理克牧師自己發明的
22:25
It's an old move.
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古時候就有了
22:27
It's a very clever adaptation of religions.
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是宗教明智的應變之道
22:30
It's a wildcard for disarming any reasonable criticism.
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是消除各種合理質疑的萬靈丹
22:35
"You don't like my interpretation?
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「你不喜歡我的解釋？
22:37
You've got a reasonable objection to it?
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你有合理的反對理由是嗎？
22:39
Don't listen, don't listen!
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我都不要聽就好了
22:41
That's the Devil speaking."
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這全是魔鬼在說話。」
22:44
This discourages the sort of reasoning citizenship
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這種思維就成了各國培養具批判能力的公民
22:49
it seems to me that we want to have.
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最大的阻礙
22:52
I've got one more problem, then I'm through.
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我還要提出最後一個問題
22:55
And I'd really like to get a response if Rick is able to do it.
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希望華理克牧師能夠回答
23:00
"In the Great Commission, Jesus said, 'Go to all people of all nations
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基督教的「大使命」中，耶穌說：「你們要去，使萬民作我的門徒，
23:03
and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father,
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奉聖父、聖子、聖靈之名給他們施洗
23:06
the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to do everything I've told you.'"
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凡我所吩咐你們的，都教他們遵守。」
23:09
The Bible says Jesus is the only one who can save the world.
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聖經上記載唯有耶穌是救世主
23:14
Now here we've seen many wonderful maps of the world
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這幾天各位看過好幾張世界地圖
23:17
in the last day or so.
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都非常精美
23:19
Here's one, not as beautiful as the others.
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但這張沒有其他地圖來的漂亮
23:21
It simply shows the religions of the world.
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它只標示出世界上所有宗教
23:24
And here's one that shows the sort of current breakdown of the different religions.
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也標示了目前各種宗教的分類
23:29
Now do we really want to commit ourselves to engulfing
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試問，我們真的要消滅非我族類的宗教信仰
23:38
all the other religions when their holy books are telling them,
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只因為我們奉若神明的經典告訴我們，
23:44
"Don't listen to the other side, that's just Satan talking!"
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「別聽他們的，他們全是邪魔歪道！」
23:49
It seems to me that that's a very problematic ship
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我們如果這麼做
23:55
to get on for the future.
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只能說前景堪憂
23:58
I found this sign as I was driving to Maine recently,
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最近我開車到緬因州時，看到教堂前面的告示牌寫著：
24:03
in front of a church -- "Good without God becomes zero."
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「Good這個字少了God只剩下0」
24:05
Sort of cute.
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挺可愛的對吧？
24:07
A very clever little meme.
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的確是個很聰明的小「迷因(meme)」
24:11
I don't believe it and I think this idea, popular as it is -- not in this guise
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我並不接受這種迷因所傳遞的思想，無論它多流行
24:18
but in general -- is itself one of the main problems that we face.
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大體說來，這類思想傳遞是我們面對的大問題之一
24:22
If you are like me, you know many wonderful, committed, engaged
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各位如果像我一樣認識許多卓越、積極、認真的
24:29
atheists, agnostics, who are being very good without God.
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無神論者或可知論者，就知道他們心中沒有神也能成為好人
24:35
And you also know many religious people who hide behind their sanctity
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各位應該也認識許多教徒，表面虔誠聖潔
24:40
instead of doing good works.
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卻不做善事
24:42
So, I wish we could drop this meme.
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因此，我希望能廢除「單一宗教信仰」的迷因
24:46
I wish this meme would go extinct.
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最好永遠消失
24:48
Thanks very much for your attention.
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謝謝各位
24:50
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientistDan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes.
Why you should listen
One of our most important living philosophers, Dan Dennett is best known for his provocative and controversial arguments that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes in the brain. He argues that the brain's computational circuitry fools us into thinking we know more than we do, and that what we call consciousness — isn't. His 2003 book "Freedom Evolves" explores how our brains evolved to give us -- and only us -- the kind of freedom that matters, while 2006's "Breaking the Spell" examines belief through the lens of biology.
This mind-shifting perspective on the mind itself has distinguished Dennett's career as a philosopher and cognitive scientist. And while the philosophy community has never quite known what to make of Dennett (he defies easy categorization, and refuses to affiliate himself with accepted schools of thought), his computational approach to understanding the brain has made him, as Edge's John Brockman writes, “the philosopher of choice of the AI community.”
“It's tempting to say that Dennett has never met a robot he didn't like, and that what he likes most about them is that they are philosophical experiments,” Harry Blume wrote in the Atlantic Monthly in 1998. “To the question of whether machines can attain high-order intelligence, Dennett makes this provocative answer: ‘The best reason for believing that robots might some day become conscious is that we human beings are conscious, and we are a sort of robot ourselves.'"
In recent years, Dennett has become outspoken in his atheism, and his 2006 book Breaking the Spell calls for religion to be studied through the scientific lens of evolutionary biology. Dennett regards religion as a natural -- rather than supernatural -- phenomenon, and urges schools to break the taboo against empirical examination of religion. He argues that religion's influence over human behavior is precisely what makes gaining a rational understanding of it so necessary: “If we don't understand religion, we're going to miss our chance to improve the world in the 21st century.”
Dennett's landmark books include The Mind's I, co-edited with Douglas Hofstaedter, Consciousness Explained, and Darwin's Dangerous Idea. Read an excerpt from his 2013 book, Intuition Pumps, in the Guardian >>
Dan Dennett | Speaker | TED.com