TED2018
Zachary R. Wood: Why it's worth listening to people you disagree with
扎卡里·R·伍德: 为什么持有不同意见的人值得被聆听
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扎卡里·R·伍德说，通过接触相反的观点和持有不同观点的人，会使我们变得更强大 ，而不是更脆弱。 在这个关于寻找共同基础的重要演讲中，伍德通过巧妙而深思熟虑地运用不熟悉和有争议的观点，我们就能够获得理解和建立共鸣。 伍德说：“ 压制反对意见并不能使之消失。为了要在逆境中有所突破，我们需要致力于对人性更深入的了解。”
Zachary R. Wood - Crusader for dialogue
As the head of a student group called Uncomfortable Learning, Zachary R. Wood made a point of engaging in conversation with people he disagreed with. Full bio
As the head of a student group called Uncomfortable Learning, Zachary R. Wood made a point of engaging in conversation with people he disagreed with. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:14
In 1994,
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1994年，
00:15
Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein
coauthored "The Bell Curve,"
coauthored "The Bell Curve,"
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查尔斯‧默里与理查德‧赫恩斯坦
合著了《 钟形曲线 》，
合著了《 钟形曲线 》，
一本非常具有争议性的书，
00:20
an extremely controversial book
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书中声称，平均来说，
00:22
which claims that on average,
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00:24
some races are smarter
and more likely to succeed than others.
and more likely to succeed than others.
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有些种族比其他种族更聪明，
更容易取得成功。
更容易取得成功。
00:28
Murray and Herrnstein also suggest
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默里和赫恩斯坦也提出，
00:30
that a lack of critical intelligence
explains the prominence of violent crime
explains the prominence of violent crime
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缺乏批判性的智慧，
是贫穷的非裔美国人社区中的
是贫穷的非裔美国人社区中的
00:35
in poor African-American communities.
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暴力犯罪频繁发生的根源。
00:39
But Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein
are not the only people who think this.
are not the only people who think this.
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他们并不是唯一持有这种想法的人。
00:43
In 2012,
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2012 年，
00:45
a writer, journalist and political
commentator named John Derbyshire
commentator named John Derbyshire
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身兼作家、记者和
政治评论员的约翰‧德比希尔，
政治评论员的约翰‧德比希尔，
00:49
wrote an article that was supposed to be
a non-black version of the talk
a non-black version of the talk
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写了一篇原本面向
非黑人族群的文章，
非黑人族群的文章，
00:54
that many black parents feel
they have to give their kids today:
they have to give their kids today:
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而如今，该文章也成为
黑人父母建议孩子们
黑人父母建议孩子们
00:57
advice on how to stay safe.
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如何保证自身安全的忠告。
01:00
In it, he offered suggestions such as:
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在文章中，他提出了如下建议：
“不要参加可能会
吸引很多黑人的活动 ”，
吸引很多黑人的活动 ”，
01:03
"Do not attend events
likely to draw a lot of blacks,"
likely to draw a lot of blacks,"
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01:07
"Stay out of heavily black neighborhoods"
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“ 远离有大量黑人的社区 ”，
和“别太乐善好施，
主动帮助困境中的黑人”。
主动帮助困境中的黑人”。
01:09
and "Do not act the Good Samaritan
to blacks in distress."
to blacks in distress."
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01:13
And yet, in 2016,
I invited John Derbyshire
I invited John Derbyshire
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而在 2016 年，我邀请了约翰‧德比希尔，
还有查尔斯‧默里
01:18
as well as Charles Murray
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01:19
to speak at my school,
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来我的学校演讲，
01:21
knowing full well that I would
be giving them a platform and attention
be giving them a platform and attention
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他们完全清楚，我会提供
他们一个平台和关注度，
他们一个平台和关注度，
01:26
for ideas that I despised and rejected.
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去表达他们那些令我
鄙视和排斥的想法。
鄙视和排斥的想法。
01:30
But this is just a further evolution
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这只是令人不舒服的
人生成长之旅的一个新篇章。
01:33
of a journey of uncomfortable learning
throughout my life.
throughout my life.
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01:37
When I was 10 years old, my mother
was diagnosed with schizophrenia,
was diagnosed with schizophrenia,
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我10岁时，母亲
被诊断患有精神分裂症，
被诊断患有精神分裂症，
01:42
a mental illness characterized
by mood swings and paranoid delusions.
by mood swings and paranoid delusions.
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一种以情绪波动和
偏执妄想为特征的精神疾病。
偏执妄想为特征的精神疾病。
01:47
Throughout my life, my mother's rage
would turn our small house
would turn our small house
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在我的整个生活中，
母亲的愤怒会让我们的小房子
母亲的愤怒会让我们的小房子
01:51
into a minefield.
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变成一个雷区。
01:54
Yet, though I feared
her rage on a daily basis,
her rage on a daily basis,
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尽管我每天都在恐惧她的愤怒，
01:57
I also learned so much from her.
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但也从她那里学到了很多东西。
02:00
Our relationship was complicated
and challenging,
and challenging,
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我们的关系既复杂又富挑战性，
02:05
and at the age of 14, it was decided
that I needed to live apart from her.
that I needed to live apart from her.
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在14岁时，我决定离开她独自生活。
02:12
But over the years,
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但这些年来，
02:13
I've come to appreciate
some of the important lessons
some of the important lessons
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我变得开始感激母亲给予
我的关于人生的教训。
02:16
my mother taught me about life.
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02:18
She was the first person who spoke to me
about learning from the other side.
about learning from the other side.
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她是第一个教我
从对立方那里学习的人。
从对立方那里学习的人。
02:24
And she, like me, was born and raised
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和我一样，她出生并长大在
02:27
in a family of committed
liberal democrats.
liberal democrats.
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一个自由的民主党家庭之中。
02:30
Yet, she encouraged me to see the world
and the issues our world faces
and the issues our world faces
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她鼓励我去认识到
02:34
as complex, controversial
and ever-changing.
and ever-changing.
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世界是复杂的，
充满争议和不断变化的。
充满争议和不断变化的。
02:40
One day, I came across
the phrase "affirmative action"
the phrase "affirmative action"
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有一天，我在一本书中看到了
02:42
in a book I was reading.
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“平权运动 ”一词。
02:45
And when I asked her what the term meant,
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当我问她是什么意思时，
02:48
she spent what felt like an hour
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她居然花了一小时
做出了一个彻底的，
深思熟虑的解释，
深思熟虑的解释，
02:50
giving me a thorough
and thoughtful explanation
and thoughtful explanation
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而且对一个小孩来说并不难理解。
02:52
that would make sense to a small child.
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02:54
She even made the topic sound
at least as interesting
at least as interesting
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她甚至让这个话题听起来很有趣，
不亚于学校教授的讲解。
02:58
as any of my professors have.
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03:01
She explained the many reasons
why people of various political views
why people of various political views
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她解释了持有不同政治观点的
人们挑战和支持
人们挑战和支持
平权运动的各种原因，
03:05
challenge and support affirmative action,
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她强调自己强烈支持平权运动，
03:07
stressing that, while she strongly
supported it herself,
supported it herself,
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意识到这个具有争议的问题
对我来说是很重要的，
对我来说是很重要的，
03:11
it was important for me to view the issue
as a controversial one
as a controversial one
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03:15
with a long history,
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它有着悠久的历史，
03:17
a questionable future
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充满疑点未来，
03:19
and a host of complicating factors.
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和一系列复杂的因素。
03:22
While affirmative action can increase
the presence of minorities
the presence of minorities
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平权运动可以增加少数族裔
03:26
at elite educational institutions,
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在精英教育机构学习的机会，
03:28
she felt that it could also disadvantage
hardworking people of different races
hardworking people of different races
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也可能不利于来自富裕家庭的
那些努力学习的
那些努力学习的
不同族裔的人。
03:33
from more affluent backgrounds.
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03:37
My mom wanted me to understand
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妈妈想让我明白
03:41
that I should never
just write off opinions
just write off opinions
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绝不该简单忽视
不喜欢或不赞同的意见，
03:43
that I disagreed with or disliked,
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03:46
because there was always something
to learn from the perspectives of others,
to learn from the perspectives of others,
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因为站在别人的角度，
总能学到新的东西，
总能学到新的东西，
03:50
even when doing so might be difficult.
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尽管很难做到这一点。
03:53
But life at home with my mom
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单与妈妈在家的生活
03:56
was not the only aspect of my journey
that has been formative and uncomfortable.
that has been formative and uncomfortable.
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并不是我人生旅途中的唯一
塑造性的，让我感到不适的方面。
塑造性的，让我感到不适的方面。
04:01
In fourth grade, she decided
that I should attend a private school
that I should attend a private school
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四年级时，她决定要我上私立学校，
04:05
in order to receive
the best education possible.
the best education possible.
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以尽可能接受更好的教育。
04:08
As a black student attending
predominantly white private schools,
predominantly white private schools,
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作为就读于以白人为主的
私立学校中的黑人学生，
私立学校中的黑人学生，
04:12
I've encountered attitudes and behaviors
that reflected racial stereotypes.
that reflected racial stereotypes.
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我遇到了带有种族偏见的
态度和行为。
态度和行为。
04:17
Several of my friends' parents
assumed within minutes of meeting me
assumed within minutes of meeting me
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学校里几位朋友的父母
在见到我几分钟之后就认定
在见到我几分钟之后就认定
04:21
that my best skill was playing basketball.
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我最好的本领只是打篮球。
04:25
And it really upset me to think
that my race made it harder for them
that my race made it harder for them
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让我不安的是，
种族偏见使他们很难
种族偏见使他们很难
把我看作是一个喜爱
阅读，写作和演讲的学生。
阅读，写作和演讲的学生。
04:28
to see me as a student who loved
reading, writing and speaking.
reading, writing and speaking.
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04:32
Experiences like this motivated me
to work tirelessly
to work tirelessly
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像这样的经历，
激励着我孜孜不倦地工作，
激励着我孜孜不倦地工作，
04:38
to disprove what I knew
people had assumed.
people had assumed.
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来反驳对我错误的假设。
04:42
My mother even said that,
in order to put my best foot forward,
in order to put my best foot forward,
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母亲甚至说，如果想要
给人留下良好的印象，
给人留下良好的印象，
04:46
I had to be patient, alert
and excruciatingly well-mannered.
and excruciatingly well-mannered.
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我必须耐心，警惕，
而且要异常的彬彬有礼。
而且要异常的彬彬有礼。
04:50
To prove that I belonged,
I had to show poise and confidence,
I had to show poise and confidence,
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为了证明我的能力，
我必须表现出平和与自信，
我必须表现出平和与自信，
有较强的表达能力，并善于倾听。
04:54
the ability to speak well
and listen closely.
and listen closely.
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04:57
Only then would my peers see
that I deserved to be there
that I deserved to be there
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只有到那时，我的同龄人才会看到
我与他们并没有分别。
05:00
as much as they did.
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05:02
Despite this racial stereotyping
and the discomfort I often felt,
and the discomfort I often felt,
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尽管我经常感到种族偏见
和对环境的不适应，
和对环境的不适应，
05:07
the learning I gained from other aspects
of being at an elite private school
of being at an elite private school
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但我却从私立精英学校的
其他方面学到了
其他方面学到了
05:11
were incredibly valuable.
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非常有价值的东西。
05:14
I was encouraged by my teachers
to explore my curiosity,
to explore my curiosity,
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老师鼓励我开发内在的好奇心，
05:18
to challenge myself in new ways
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以新的方式挑战自己，
05:20
and to deepen my understanding
of subjects that fascinated me the most.
of subjects that fascinated me the most.
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努力探究令我着迷的主题。
05:26
And going to college was the next step.
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下一步是大学。
05:30
I was excited to take my intellectual
drive and interest in the world of ideas
drive and interest in the world of ideas
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我很高兴能够把对待
各种想法的动力和兴趣
各种想法的动力和兴趣
带到更高的层次。
05:33
to the next level.
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05:35
I was eager to engage in lively debate
with peers and professors
with peers and professors
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我很渴望能与同学，教授
和外部发言人
和外部发言人
进行热烈的辩论；
05:40
and with outside speakers;
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05:42
to listen, to learn and gain
a deeper understanding of myself
a deeper understanding of myself
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倾听、学习并对自己和其他人
有更深入的理解。
05:46
and of others.
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05:48
While I was fortunate to meet
peers and professors
peers and professors
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虽然我有幸遇到了有相同兴趣的
05:51
who were interested
in doing the same thing,
in doing the same thing,
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同学和教授，
05:54
my desire to engage with difficult ideas
was also met with resistance.
was also met with resistance.
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我渴望参与争议性课题的
渴望却遭遇了阻力。
渴望却遭遇了阻力。
06:00
To prepare myself to engage
with controversy in the real world,
with controversy in the real world,
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为了准备在现实世界中
与争议进行对抗，
与争议进行对抗，
06:05
I joined a group that brought
controversial speakers to campus.
controversial speakers to campus.
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我加入了一个将有争议的
演讲人带入校园的小组。
演讲人带入校园的小组。
06:09
But many people fiercely
opposed this group,
opposed this group,
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但很多人强烈的反对这个团体，
06:12
and I received significant pushback
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我遇到了来自学生，教师和
06:14
from students, faculty
and my administration.
and my administration.
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校方行政部门方面的巨大阻力。
06:20
For many, it was difficult to see
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对很多人来说，遇到冲突时，
06:23
how bringing controversial
speakers to campus could be valuable,
speakers to campus could be valuable,
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很难认识到将有争议的
演讲者带进校园，
演讲者带进校园，
06:26
when they caused harm.
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其实是利大于弊。
06:28
And it was disappointing to me
facing personal attacks,
facing personal attacks,
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当面对个人攻击，
06:32
having my administration cancel speakers
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当校方取消了对演讲人的邀请，
06:34
and hearing my intentions
distorted by those around me.
distorted by those around me.
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当我的意图被周围的人扭曲，
这一切都让我倍感失望。
这一切都让我倍感失望。
我明白自己做的事情
06:39
My work also hurt the feelings of many,
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06:42
and I understood that.
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伤害了很多人的感受。
06:45
Of course, no one likes being offended,
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当然，没有人喜欢被冒犯，
06:47
and I certainly don't like hearing
controversial speakers
controversial speakers
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我当然也不喜欢听到
有争议的演讲者
有争议的演讲者
06:50
argue that feminism has become
a war against men
a war against men
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认为女性主义是一场对男性的战争，
06:54
or that blacks have lower IQs than whites.
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或者黑人的智商比白人低。
06:57
I also understand
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我也明白
06:59
that some people have experienced
traumatic experiences in their lives.
traumatic experiences in their lives.
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有些人在生活中经历了巨大的创伤。
07:05
And for some, listening to offensive views
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听到这些冒犯的观点，
07:08
can be like reliving the very traumas
that they've worked so hard to overcome.
that they've worked so hard to overcome.
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就如同重温曾经努力克服的创伤。
07:13
Many argue that by giving
these people a platform,
these people a platform,
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许多人认为给极具争议的人
提供平台来发声，
提供平台来发声，
07:16
you're doing more harm than good,
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是弊大于利的，
07:18
and I'm reminded of this every time
I listen to these points of view
I listen to these points of view
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但每次我听到这样的提醒，
07:22
and feel my stomach turn.
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都感到很痛心。
07:25
Yet, tuning out opposing viewpoints
doesn't make them go away,
doesn't make them go away,
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压制反对观点并不会让意见消失，
因为它们背后仍有数百万的支持者。
07:28
because millions of people
agree with them.
agree with them.
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07:31
In order to understand
the potential of society
the potential of society
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为了了解社会向前
迈进的潜力，
07:33
to progress forward,
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07:35
we need to understand the counterforces.
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我们需要了解反面的力量。
07:39
By engaging with controversial
and offensive ideas,
and offensive ideas,
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通过参与带有争议和冒犯的想法，
07:43
I believe that we can find common ground,
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我相信我们可以找到共同的基础，
07:46
if not with the speakers themselves,
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如果不来自演讲者本身，
就会来自被他们所吸引
或感化的观众。
或感化的观众。
07:49
then with the audiences
they may attract or indoctrinate.
they may attract or indoctrinate.
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07:53
Through engaging, I believe
that we may reach a better understanding,
that we may reach a better understanding,
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通过积极参与，我相信我们
彼此间可以达成更好的理解，
彼此间可以达成更好的理解，
07:58
a deeper understanding,
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更深入地了解
各自的信仰，
08:00
of our own beliefs
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08:01
and preserve the ability
to solve problems,
to solve problems,
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并保留解决问题的能力，
08:05
which we can't do
if we don't talk to each other
if we don't talk to each other
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如果我们彼此间不能坦诚交流，
08:08
and make an effort to be good listeners.
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不能耐心地倾听他人，
就没法做到这一点。
就没法做到这一点。
08:12
But soon after I announced
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但在我宣布约翰‧德比希尔
08:13
that John Derbyshire
would be speaking on campus,
would be speaking on campus,
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将在校园发表演讲后不久，
社交媒体上就出现了
社交媒体上就出现了
08:16
student backlash erupted on social media.
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学生们铺天盖地的反对之声。
08:19
The tide of resistance,
in fact, was so intense,
in fact, was so intense,
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抵制的情绪如此激烈，
08:22
that my college president
rescinded the invitation.
rescinded the invitation.
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我们大学的校长不得不
取消了这次邀请。
取消了这次邀请。
08:25
I was deeply disappointed by this
because, as I saw it,
because, as I saw it,
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我为此深感失望，因为这样一来，
08:28
there would be nothing
that any of my peers or I could do
that any of my peers or I could do
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我和我的任何同学都无法做到
08:32
to silence someone who agreed with him
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在未来的工作环境中
08:34
in the office environment
of our future employers.
of our future employers.
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让赞同他的人保持沉默。
08:38
I look out at what's happening
on college campuses,
on college campuses,
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我在大学校园发生的事情中
08:41
and I see the anger.
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看到了愤怒。
08:42
And I get it.
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我非常理解。
08:44
But what I wish I could tell people
is that it's worth the discomfort,
is that it's worth the discomfort,
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但我希望告诉人们的是，
这种令人不适的体验是值得的，
这种令人不适的体验是值得的，
08:48
it's worth listening,
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去聆听是有意义的，
08:49
and that we're stronger,
not weaker, because of it.
not weaker, because of it.
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这样并不会削弱我们的力量，
反而会让我们更强大。
反而会让我们更强大。
08:54
When I think about my experiences
with uncomfortable learning,
with uncomfortable learning,
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当我想到过去那些
不愉快的学习经历时，
不愉快的学习经历时，
08:59
and I reflect upon them,
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我认真进行了反思，
09:02
I've found that it's been very difficult
to change the values
to change the values
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发现要改变自己身处的知识界
存在的偏见，是非常困难的。
09:06
of the intellectual community
that I've been a part of.
that I've been a part of.
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09:10
But I do feel a sense of hope
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但我感到还有希望，
09:12
when I think about the individual
interactions that I've been able to have
interactions that I've been able to have
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当我想到跟学生的个人互动时，
他们有的支持，有的拿不定主意，
09:15
with students who both support
the work that I'm doing
the work that I'm doing
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还有的表示了反对。
09:18
and who feel challenged by it
and who do not support it.
and who do not support it.
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09:23
What I've found is that,
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我发现，
尽管很难去改变整个社区的价值观，
09:24
while it can be difficult to change
the values of a community,
the values of a community,
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09:27
we can gain a lot
from individual interactions.
from individual interactions.
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但个人互动可以让我们受益匪浅。
09:31
While I didn't get to engage
with John Derbyshire
with John Derbyshire
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由于校长取消了我的邀请，
我无缘与约翰‧德比希尔会面，
09:34
due to my president's disinvitation,
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但在查尔斯‧默里的演讲之前，
我可以和他共进晚餐。
我可以和他共进晚餐。
09:36
I was able to have dinner
with Charles Murray before his talk.
with Charles Murray before his talk.
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09:42
I knew the conversation
would be difficult.
would be difficult.
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我知道这个谈话会很困难，
09:44
And I didn't expect it to be pleasant.
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也没奢望这个过程会是愉快的。
09:47
But it was cordial, and I did gain
a deeper understanding of his arguments.
a deeper understanding of his arguments.
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但事实上，谈话的气氛非常热情友好，
我对他的论点也有了更深入的理解。
我对他的论点也有了更深入的理解。
09:53
I found that he, like me,
believed in creating a more just society.
believed in creating a more just society.
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我发现他和我一样，
想建立一个更加公正的社会。
想建立一个更加公正的社会。
09:58
The thing is, his understanding
of what justice entailed
of what justice entailed
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问题是，他理解的正义
10:02
was very different from my own.
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与我自己的理解非常不同。
10:04
The way in which he wanted
to understand the issue,
to understand the issue,
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他看问题的方式，
解决不平等问题的方式
10:07
the way in which he wanted
to approach the issue of inequality
to approach the issue of inequality
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10:10
also differed from my own.
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也与我不同。
10:12
And I found that his understanding
of issues like welfare
of issues like welfare
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我发现他对福利等问题和
平权行动的理解，
10:15
and affirmative action
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10:17
was tied and deeply rooted
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深深根植并被束缚于
10:19
in his understanding of various
libertarian and conservative beliefs,
libertarian and conservative beliefs,
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他的自由主义和保守的信仰中，
10:23
what diminishes and increases
their presence in our society.
their presence in our society.
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什么因素会减少和增加
他们在社会中的存在感。
他们在社会中的存在感。
10:27
While he expressed
his viewpoints eloquently,
his viewpoints eloquently,
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虽然他雄辩地表达了自己的观点，
10:30
I remained thoroughly unconvinced.
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我却始终不敢苟同。
10:32
But I did walk away
with a deeper understanding.
with a deeper understanding.
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但对此我的确有了更深的了解。
10:36
It's my belief
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这是我的信念，
10:39
that to achieve progress
in the face of adversity,
in the face of adversity,
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为了在逆境中取得进步，
10:43
we need a genuine commitment
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我们需要一个真正的承诺，
10:46
to gaining a deeper
understanding of humanity.
understanding of humanity.
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深入了解人性。
10:50
I'd like to see a world with more leaders
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我希望可以看到一个
10:52
who are familiar with
the depths of the views
the depths of the views
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有更多领导者能深度了解
10:54
of those they deeply disagree with,
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对立群体的意见的世界。
10:58
so that they can understand the nuances
of everyone they're representing.
of everyone they're representing.
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这样他们就能够理解
所代表的每个人的细微差别。
所代表的每个人的细微差别。
11:03
I see this as an ongoing process
involving constant learning,
involving constant learning,
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这是一个持续不断的学习过程，
11:07
and I'm confident that I'll be able
to add value down the line
to add value down the line
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而我相信，如果继续
构建我的同理心和理解，
构建我的同理心和理解，
11:11
if I continue building empathy
and understanding
and understanding
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并投身学习自己所
不了解的那些观点，
不了解的那些观点，
11:13
through engaging
with unfamiliar perspectives.
with unfamiliar perspectives.
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我就能够为此贡献自己的一份力量。
谢谢。
11:16
Thank you.
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（掌声）
11:17
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Zachary R. Wood - Crusader for dialogueAs the head of a student group called Uncomfortable Learning, Zachary R. Wood made a point of engaging in conversation with people he disagreed with.
Why you should listen
Zachary R. Wood wants to encourage open conversations about hard topics. He is a Robert L. Bartley Fellow at The Wall Street Journal and a class of 2018 graduate of Williams College, where he served as president of Uncomfortable Learning, a student group that sparked national controversy for inviting provocative speakers to campus, from John Derbyshire to Charles Murray. Wood's defense of such conversations led him to give Senate testimony in the summer of 2017.
His recent writing has appeared in The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Huffington Post, The Nation, The Weekly Standard, Times Higher Education, Inside Higher Ed, Jet and SLAM Magazine. In 2018, he'll publish Uncensored, a book that tells his own personal story to enrich and deepen his work as an advocate for difficult conversations. You can reach him at zachwood2448@gmail.com.
Zachary R. Wood | Speaker | TED.com