ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein - Philosopher and writer
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein writes novels and nonfiction that explore questions of philosophy, morality and being.

Why you should listen

In her latest book, Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away, Rebecca Newberger Goldstein makes the case for the importance of philosophy -- even as neuroscience tells us more about our brains, and connective technologies teach us more about the world around us. It's written in the form of a Socratic dialog, a form that Goldstein is passionate about teaching and exploring.

Meanwhile, her novels, from The Mind-Body Problem (Contemporary American Fiction) to 2011's 36 Arguments for the Existence of God: A Work of Fiction (Vintage Contemporaries), use techniques of fiction to untangle philosophical questions, such as: How should we balance heart and mind? What should we have faith in?

In 1996 Goldstein became a MacArthur Fellow, receiving the prize popularly known as the “Genius Award.” She was designated Humanist of the Year 2011 by the American Humanist Association. She's also the author of Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity, a combination memoir and history.

More profile about the speaker
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein | Speaker | TED.com
Steven Pinker - Psychologist
Steven Pinker is a professor of cognitive science (the study of the human mind) who writes about language, mind and human nature.

Why you should listen

Steven Pinker grew up in the English-speaking community of Montreal but has spent his adult life bouncing back and forth between Harvard and MIT. He is interested in all aspects of human nature: how we see, hear, think, speak, remember, feel and interact.

To be specific: he developed the first comprehensive theory of language acquisition in children, used verb meaning as a window into cognition, probed the limits of neural networks and showed how the interaction between memory and computation shapes language. He has used evolution to illuminate innuendo, emotional expression and social coordination. He has documented historical declines in violence and explained them in terms of the ways that the violent and peaceable components of human nature interact in different eras. He has written books on the language instinct, how the mind works, the stuff of thought and the doctrine of the blank slate, together with a guide to stylish writing that is rooted in psychology.

In his latest book, Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress, he writes about progress -- why people are healthier, richer, safer, happier and better educated than ever. His other books include The Language InstinctHow the Mind Works, The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human NatureThe Stuff of Thought, and The Better Angels of Our Nature.

More profile about the speaker
Steven Pinker | Speaker | TED.com
TED2012

Steven Pinker and Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: The long reach of reason

史迪芬平克 與 瑞貝卡鈕斯格: 理性的長期效應

Filmed:
1,110,252 views

這是 TED 第一次把蘇格拉底式對談變成動畫! 在一個被非理性管理政治和文化的時代,理性是否失去它的力量?看心理學家史迪芬平克漸漸地被哲學家瑞貝卡鈕斯格說服,理性是人類道德進程的動力,就算它的結果可能在好幾個世代後才能逐漸浮現。這次的對話錄製於 TED 大會,由 Cognitive 動畫工作室繪製成生動有趣的動畫影片。
- Philosopher and writer
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein writes novels and nonfiction that explore questions of philosophy, morality and being. Full bio - Psychologist
Steven Pinker is a professor of cognitive science (the study of the human mind) who writes about language, mind and human nature. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:13
["Rebecca麗貝卡 NewbergerNewberger Goldstein戈爾茨坦"]
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["瑞貝卡 鈕伯格 戈德斯坦"]
00:16
["Steven史蒂芬 Pinker平克"]
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["史迪芬 平克"]
00:18
["The Long Reach達到 of Reason原因"]
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"理性的長期效應"
00:23
Cabbie出租車司機: Twenty-two二十二 dollars美元.
Steven史蒂芬 Pinker平克: Okay.
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計程車司機:22美元
史迪芬:好的
00:29
Rebecca麗貝卡 NewbergerNewberger Goldstein戈爾茨坦: Reason原因
appears出現 to have fallen墮落 on hard times:
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瑞貝卡:艱困的時期好像會讓人理智下降
00:33
Popular流行 culture文化 plumbs用鉛垂線 new depths深處 of dumbthdumbth
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流行文化達到了愚昧的另一種高度
00:37
and political政治 discourse演講 has become成為 a race種族
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而政治話語更是變成了
00:39
to the bottom底部.
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逐底競爭
00:42
We're living活的 in an era時代 of scientific科學 creationism神創論,
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我們住在一個科學創造論的時代
00:47
9/11 conspiracy陰謀 theories理論, psychic精神 hotlines熱線,
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911陰謀論、靈媒諮詢熱線
00:51
and a resurgence再起 of religious宗教 fundamentalism原教旨主義.
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還有正在復甦的基本教義派的時代
00:54
People who think too well
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那些善於思考的人們
00:56
are often經常 accused被告 of elitism精英,
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也時常被指控奉行菁英主義
00:58
and even in the academy學院,
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甚至在學術界
01:01
there are attacks攻擊 on logocentrism邏各斯中心主義,
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也有對義理中心論(logocentrism)的批評
01:03
the crime犯罪 of letting出租 logic邏輯 dominate支配 our thinking思維.
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也就是讓邏輯引導思考的這項罪名
01:08
SPSP: But is this necessarily一定 a bad thing?
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史迪芬:可是這真的是壞事嗎?
01:11
Perhaps也許 reason原因 is overrated被高估.
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也許理性被高估了
01:13
Many許多 pundits專家 have argued爭論 that a good heart
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很多梵學家都主張一顆善良的心
01:15
and steadfast堅定 moral道德 clarity明晰
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還有堅定的道德意識
01:17
are superior優越 to triangulations三角
of overeducated受教育水平 policy政策 wonks書呆子,
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都比過度教育的政策家所作的三角測量好
01:21
like the best最好 and brightest and that dragged us
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尤其那些最聰明的政策家還曾經
01:24
into the quagmire沼澤 of Vietnam越南.
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把我們拖進越戰的泥沼裡
01:26
And wasn't it reason原因 that gave us the means手段
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而且難道不是理性讓我們
01:27
to despoil掠奪 the planet行星
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去掠奪這個星球
01:29
and threaten威脅 our species種類 with
weapons武器 of mass destruction毀壞?
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和用毀滅性武器威脅我們同類的嗎?
01:32
In this way of thinking思維,
it's character字符 and conscience良心,
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如果這樣想的話,會拯救我們的其實是人格和良心
01:35
not cold-hearted冷血 calculation計算, that will save保存 us.
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而不是那些實際的計算
01:39
Besides除了, a human人的 being存在 is not a brain on a stick.
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再說了,人類又不是一根叉著腦袋的樹枝
01:42
My fellow同伴 psychologists心理學家 have shown顯示 that we're led
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我有一些心理學家的朋友證實了
01:45
by our bodies身體 and our emotions情緒
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我們是被身體還有情緒引導的
01:47
and use our puny弱小 powers權力 of reason原因
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而我們只是用理智的微小力量
01:49
merely僅僅 to rationalize理順 our gut腸道 feelings情懷 after the fact事實.
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僅僅用於事後解釋我們所感受到的一切
01:52
RNGRNG: How could a reasoned理由
argument論據 logically邏輯 entail意味著
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瑞貝卡:理性思辨怎麼可能在邏輯上
01:55
the ineffectiveness無效 of reasoned理由 arguments參數?
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造成其他理性思辨的無效呢?
01:59
Look, you're trying to persuade說服
us of reason's原因的 impotence性無能.
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聽著,你正在試著說服我們理智是無用的
02:03
You're not threatening危險的 us or bribing賄賂 us,
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但你並不是用威脅或是行賄的方式
02:05
suggesting提示 that we resolve解決 the issue問題
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你也沒有提出用舉手表決或舉辦選美比賽
02:07
with a show顯示 of hands or a beauty美女 contest比賽.
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來解決這個爭論
02:10
By the very act法案 of trying to
reason原因 us into your position位置,
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在你試著理性說服我們認同你的觀點之時
02:14
you're conceding失球 reason's原因的 potency效力.
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你已間接承認了理智的力量
02:17
Reason原因 isn't up for grabs爭奪 here. It can't be.
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理智並不是任何人能夠得到的
02:20
You show顯示 up for that debate辯論
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你出席這場辯論的同時
02:21
and you've already已經 lost丟失 it.
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你就已經輸了
02:24
SPSP: But can reason原因 lead us in directions方向
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但是理性真的能夠引導我們走向
02:27
that are good or decent正經 or moral道德?
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良善、合宜、或是符合道德的方向嗎
02:29
After all, you pointed out that reason原因
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畢竟,你也指出了理性不過是
02:32
is just a means手段 to an end結束,
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達到結果的一個手段
02:34
and the end結束 depends依靠 on the reasoner's推理的 passions激情.
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而結果是好是壞則要取決於學者的熱情
02:36
Reason原因 can lay鋪設 out a road
map地圖 to peace和平 and harmony和諧
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理智能夠鋪出一條通往和平與協調的道路
02:39
if the reasoner推理 wants peace和平 and harmony和諧,
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只要那是使用者想要的話
02:41
but it can also lay鋪設 out a road
map地圖 to conflict衝突 and strife爭吵
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但是如果使用者的意圖為衝突和鬥爭
02:44
if the reasoner推理 delights美食 in conflict衝突 and strife爭吵.
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理智也可以鋪出通往衝突以及鬥爭的路
02:46
Can reason原因 force the reasoner推理 to want
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理智能夠一定讓使用者
02:49
less cruelty殘酷 and waste浪費?
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比較不殘忍或不無用嗎
02:51
RNGRNG: All on its own擁有, the answer回答 is no,
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瑞貝卡:如果只有理智的話,答案就是否定的
02:54
but it doesn't take much to switch開關 it to yes.
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但是不需要太多,答案就可以變成肯定
02:57
You need two conditions條件:
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你需要兩個條件:
02:59
The first is that reasoners推理 all care關心
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第一個就是所有使用理智的人在乎
03:02
about their own擁有 well-being福利.
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他們自己的福利
03:03
That's one of the passions激情 that has to be present當下
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這是理智要能成功運作
03:06
in order訂購 for reason原因 to go to work,
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所需要的其中一項熱情
03:09
and it's obviously明顯 present當下 in all of us.
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而且很明顯的,我們都擁有這項熱情
03:10
We all care關心 passionately熱情
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我們全都殷切的
03:13
about our own擁有 well-being福利.
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關注自己的福利
03:15
The second第二 condition條件 is that reasoners推理
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第二個條件就是這些是用理智的人
03:17
are members會員 of a community社區 of reasoners推理
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是擁有理智的人的社群中的一員
03:20
who can affect影響 one another's他人的 well-being福利,
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他們能夠影響彼此的福利
03:22
can exchange交換 messages消息,
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能夠交換訊息
03:23
and comprehend理解 each other's其他 reasoning推理.
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而且能夠理解彼此的論述
03:26
And that's certainly當然 true真正 of our gregarious群居
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而我們這些群居又健談的種族
03:29
and loquatiousloquatious species種類,
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天生就具有語言本能
03:31
well endowed天賦 with the instinct直覺 for language語言.
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完全符合這兩個條件
03:34
SPSP: Well, that sounds聲音 good in theory理論,
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史迪芬:好吧,在理論上這聽起來很好
03:36
but has it worked工作 that way in practice實踐?
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但實際上真的能夠運作嗎
03:38
In particular特定, can it explain說明
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尤其是,它能夠解釋
03:40
a momentous重大 historical歷史的 development發展
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我五年前在TED演講裡提到的
03:42
that I spoke about five years年份 ago here at TEDTED?
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那個重大的歷史進展嗎?
03:45
Namely亦即, we seem似乎 to be getting得到 more humane人道.
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也就是,人類似乎往越來越人道的方向發展
03:47
Centuries世紀 ago, our ancestors祖先 would burn燒傷 cats alive
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幾世紀前,把貓活活燒死對我們的祖先來說
03:51
as a form形成 of popular流行 entertainment娛樂.
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是一種大眾娛樂的形式
03:53
Knights騎士 waged發動 constant不變 war戰爭 on each other
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騎士們利用屠殺盡可能多對手的佃農
03:55
by trying to kill as many許多 of each
other's其他 peasants農民 as possible可能.
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來對彼此發動戰爭
03:58
Governments政府 executed執行 people for frivolous輕浮 reasons原因,
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以前政府會為了毫無說服力的理由處決人民
04:01
like stealing偷竊行為 a cabbage捲心菜
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像是偷甘藍菜
04:02
or criticizing批評 the royal王室的 garden花園.
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或是批評皇家花園
04:04
The executions處決 were designed設計 to be as prolonged經久
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那些處決方式更是被設計用來延遲
04:07
and as painful痛苦 as possible可能, like crucifixion受難,
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被處決者的痛苦,像是釘十字架
04:10
disembowelment剖腹, breaking破壞 on the wheel.
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切除內臟、破輪等等
04:12
Respectable可敬 people kept不停 slaves奴隸.
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另外,有聲望的人們還會蓄奴
04:14
For all our flaws破綻, we have abandoned
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對於那些缺點,現在人們已經中止
04:16
these barbaric野蠻 practices做法.
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那些野蠻的行為了
04:17
RNGRNG: So, do you think it's
human人的 nature性質 that's changed?
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瑞貝卡:所以你認為是人類的天性變了嗎?
04:20
SPSP: Not exactly究竟. I think we still harbor港口 instincts本能
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史迪芬:這也不然。我認為我們依舊擁有
04:23
that can erupt爆發 in violence暴力,
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那些能夠導致暴力的天性
04:24
like greed貪心, tribalism部落, revenge復仇, dominance霸主地位, sadism虐待狂.
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像是貪婪、部落意識、復仇、統治心態、虐待癖好
04:29
But we also have instincts本能 that can steer駕駛 us away,
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但我們同時也有能夠讓我們往另一個方向發展的天性
04:32
like self-control自我控制, empathy同情, a sense of fairness公平,
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例如自制力、同理心、對公平的追求
04:35
what Abraham亞伯拉罕 Lincoln林肯 called
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也就是亞伯拉罕.林肯所說的
04:37
the better angels天使 of our nature性質.
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我們天性中的好天使
04:38
RNGRNG: So if human人的 nature性質 didn't change更改,
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瑞貝卡:所以倘若人類的天性沒有變
04:40
what invigorated盤活 those better angels天使?
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又是什麼鼓舞了那些好天使呢
04:42
SPSP: Well, among其中 other things,
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嗯,除了這些之外
04:44
our circle of empathy同情 expanded擴大.
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重點是我們同理心的範圍會擴增
04:46
Years年份 ago, our ancestors祖先 would feel the pain疼痛
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多年以前,我們的祖先只會為了
04:48
only of their family家庭 and people in their village.
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家人或是同村落的人們感到痛苦
04:51
But with the expansion擴張 of literacy讀寫能力 and travel旅行,
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但是藉由擴展知識以及旅行
04:54
people started開始 to sympathize同情
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人們體諒的對象範圍
04:56
with wider更寬的 and wider更寬的 circles,
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也逐漸地擴展
04:57
the clan氏族, the tribe部落, the nation國家, the race種族,
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從氏族一路到部落、國家、種族
05:00
and perhaps也許 eventually終於, all of humanity人性.
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說不定最後就會包含整個人類群體
05:03
RNGRNG: Can hard-headed頭腦冷靜 scientists科學家們
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那些講究實際的科學家
05:05
really give so much credit信用 to soft-hearted好心的 empathy同情?
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真的會認同難以解釋的同理心嗎?
05:08
SPSP: They can and do.
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當然可以
05:10
Neurophysiologists神經生理學家 have found發現 neurons神經元 in the brain
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神經生理學家在腦中發現了一種神經元
05:12
that respond響應 to other people's人們 actions行動
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它們會對別人的行為產生反應
05:14
the same相同 way they respond響應 to our own擁有.
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就如同對己身的行為產生的反應一樣
05:16
Empathy同情 emerges出現 early in life,
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同理心在成長過程中很早就形成了
05:18
perhaps也許 before the age年齡 of one.
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也許在一歲之前
05:20
Books圖書 on empathy同情 have become成為 bestsellers最暢銷,
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關於同理心的書更總是佔據了暢銷書榜
05:21
like "The Empathic感情移入的 Civilization文明"
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例如說“同理心的文明”
05:23
and "The Age年齡 of Empathy同情."
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還有”同理心的年代“
05:26
RNGRNG: I'm all for empathy同情. I mean, who isn't?
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瑞貝卡:我崇尚同理心,我是說,誰不呢?
05:28
But all on its own擁有, it's a feeble微弱 instrument儀器
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但如果只有同理心,對於道德的進展
05:32
for making製造 moral道德 progress進展.
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它沒有多大的功用
05:34
For one thing, it's innately天生 biased
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首先,同理心天生就具有偏頗性
05:36
toward blood血液 relations關係, babies嬰兒
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它總是偏袒有血緣關係的對象、或是寶寶
05:38
and warm, fuzzy模糊 animals動物.
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還有溫暖而毛茸茸的動物
05:40
As far as empathy同情 is concerned關心,
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如果只遵從同理心的話
05:42
ugly醜陋 outsiders外人 can go to hell地獄.
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那那些醜陋的局外人都可以下地獄了
05:46
And even our best最好 attempts嘗試 to work up sympathy同情
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而且就算我們試著對那些
05:49
for those who are unconnected懸空 with us
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與我們無關的人懷有同理心
05:51
fall秋季 miserably非常不幸地 short, a sad傷心 truth真相 about human人的 nature性質
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它也不會維持太久,這就是人類天性的可悲真相
05:56
that was pointed out by Adam亞當 Smith工匠.
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亞當.史密斯也指出了這點
05:58
Adam亞當 Smith工匠: Let us suppose假設 that the great empire帝國
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亞當.史密斯:如果我們假設中國的某個強盛帝國
06:00
of China中國 was suddenly突然 swallowed吞食
up by an earthquake地震,
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一夕之間被一場地震摧毀
06:02
and let us consider考慮 how a
man of humanity人性 in Europe歐洲
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那麼在歐洲某位具有人性的紳士
06:05
would react應對 on receiving接收 intelligence情報
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在得知如此慘烈的悲劇後
06:07
of this dreadful可怕 calamity災害.
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會做出什麼反應呢
06:09
He would, I imagine想像, first of all express表現 very strongly非常
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我想,他一開始會對那些遭遇如此不幸的人們
06:11
his sorrow悲哀 for the misfortune不幸 of that unhappy不快樂 people.
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感到深沉的悲傷
06:14
He would make many許多 melancholy愁緒 reflections思考
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他會因此憂鬱地反思
06:16
upon the precariousness不穩定 of human人的 life,
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人類生命的不可預測性
06:18
and when all these humane人道 sentiments情緒
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而當這些人性的感傷
06:20
had been once一旦 fairly相當 expressed表達,
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被相當地表達過後
06:22
he would pursue追求 his business商業 or his pleasure樂趣
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這位紳士會一如往常般地
06:24
with the same相同 ease緩解 and tranquility寧靜
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去追求他的事業或快樂
06:26
as if no such這樣 accident事故 had happened發生.
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就好像那場地震不存在一樣
06:28
If he was to lose失去 his little finger手指 tomorrow明天,
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也就是說,如果他得知明天他會失去小拇指
06:31
he would not sleep睡覺 tonight今晚,
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他會輾轉難眠一整晚
06:32
but provided提供 he never saw them,
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但換個情況
06:34
he would snore with the most profound深刻 security安全
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當今天他看不見那些因地震受苦的人們時
06:36
over the ruin廢墟 of a hundred million百萬 of his brethren弟兄.
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他只會整晚安心的打呼
06:39
SPSP: But if empathy同情 wasn't enough足夠
to make us more humane人道,
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史迪芬:但如果同理心不足以讓我們變得更有人性
06:42
what else其他 was there?
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那又是什麼原因呢
06:44
RNGRNG: Well, you didn't mention提到 what might威力 be
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你並沒有提到那個也許是
06:46
one of our most effective有效 better angels天使: reason原因.
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我們最有力量的好天使:理智
06:50
Reason原因 has muscle肌肉.
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理智是有肌肉的
06:53
It's reason原因 that provides提供 the push to widen擴大
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就是它提供了力量
06:56
that circle of empathy同情.
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讓我們擴展同理心範圍
06:58
Every一切 one of the humanitarian人道主義 developments發展
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所有你提到過的人道進展
07:01
that you mentioned提到 originated起源 with thinkers思想家
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都源自於一些思考家
07:04
who gave reasons原因 for why some practice實踐
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他們能夠給出為什麼有一些行為之所以
07:07
was indefensible站不住腳的.
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站不住腳的理由
07:09
They demonstrated證明 that the way people treated治療
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他們也能指出人們
07:11
some particular特定 group of others其他
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對待特定人們的方式
07:13
was logically邏輯 inconsistent不符
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與他們堅持對待自己的方式
07:15
with the way they insisted堅持
on being存在 treated治療 themselves他們自己.
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在邏輯上是多麼的不一致
07:18
SPSP: Are you saying that reason原因
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所以你想說的是
07:19
can actually其實 change更改 people's人們 minds頭腦?
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理智能夠改變人心囉?
07:22
Don't people just stick with whatever隨你 conviction定罪
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難道人們不會只偏好自己喜歡的觀點
07:24
serves供應 their interests利益
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或只選擇遵從
07:25
or conforms符合 to the culture文化 that they grew成長 up in?
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自己所接觸的文化規範嗎?
07:28
RNGRNG: Here's這裡的 a fascinating迷人 fact事實 about us:
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瑞貝卡:人有趣的一點
07:31
Contradictions矛盾 bother us,
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就在於我們總是受矛盾所苦
07:33
at least最小 when we're forced被迫 to confront面對 them,
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至少當我們被逼著正視它的時候是如此
07:35
which哪一個 is just another另一個 way of saying
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這也是我們總是
07:37
that we are susceptible易感 to reason原因.
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受到理智影響的另一種面向
07:40
And if you look at the history歷史 of moral道德 progress進展,
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而當你回顧一些重大的道德進展時
07:43
you can trace跟踪 a direct直接 pathway
from reasoned理由 arguments參數
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你可以追蹤到一些理性思辨
07:46
to changes變化 in the way that we actually其實 feel.
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改變我們感受的蹤跡
07:50
Time and again, a thinker思想家 would lay鋪設 out an argument論據
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如同之前提的,一位思考家會提出思辨
07:53
as to why some practice實踐 was indefensible站不住腳的,
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來說明為何有些行為是站不住腳
07:57
irrational不合理的, inconsistent不符 with values already已經 held保持.
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不理性、並悖離我們既有價值觀的
08:02
Their essay文章 would go viral病毒,
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這些論述會像病毒般傳播
08:04
get translated翻譯 into many許多 languages語言,
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並被翻譯成許多語言
08:06
get debated辯論 at pubs酒吧 and coffee咖啡 houses房屋 and salons沙龍,
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而且在酒吧、沙龍
08:09
and at dinner晚餐 parties派對,
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或是晚宴上也會被拿出來討論
08:11
and influence影響 leaders領導者, legislators立法者,
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進一步影響領導者、立法者
08:15
popular流行 opinion意見.
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還有大眾意見
08:16
Eventually終於 their conclusions結論 get absorbed吸收
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就這樣,他們得出的結論
08:20
into the common共同 sense of decency風化,
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會融入他們對合宜價值觀的想像
08:22
erasing擦除 the tracks軌道 of the original原版的 argument論據
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並消除那個一開始讓我們得出結論的
08:25
that had gotten得到 us there.
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那些論述的痕跡
08:27
Few少數 of us today今天 feel any need to put forth向前
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今天的我們並不需要
08:29
a rigorous嚴格 philosophical哲學上 argument論據
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藉由一場激烈的邏輯辯論
08:31
as to why slavery奴隸制度 is wrong錯誤
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來證明蓄奴、
08:34
or public上市 hangings簾子 or beating跳動 children孩子.
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公眾吊死、還有鞭打小孩是錯誤的
08:37
By now, these things just feel wrong錯誤.
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雖然今天的人能自然地覺得這些事不對
08:40
But just those arguments參數 had to be made製作,
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但這其實是幾世紀前的那些無數辯論
08:43
and they were, in centuries百年 past過去.
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導出的結果
08:46
SPSP: Are you saying that people needed需要
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所以你覺得人們需要
08:48
a step-by-step一步步 argument論據 to grasp把握
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一步一步的辯論才能夠察覺
08:50
why something might威力 be a wee凌晨 bit wrong錯誤
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在火形柱上燒死異教徒
08:52
with burning燃燒 heretics外道 at the stake賭注?
204
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這件事中有那麼一丁點不對勁?
08:53
RNGRNG: Oh, they did. Here's這裡的 the French法國 theologian神學家
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喔,對啊。法國的神學家塞巴斯蒂安·卡斯特利奧
08:56
Sebastian塞巴斯蒂安 Castellio卡斯特利奧 making製造 the case案件.
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對此事的論述如下:
08:59
Sebastian塞巴斯蒂安 Castellio卡斯特利奧: Calvin卡爾文 says that he's certain某些,
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塞巴斯蒂安·卡斯特利奧:凱文說他是肯定的,
09:01
and other sects門派 say that they are.
208
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其他人也說他們是肯定的。
09:03
Who shall be judge法官?
209
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誰應該被批判呢?
09:04
If the matter is certain某些, to whom is it so? To Calvin卡爾文?
210
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如果事情是確定的, 對於誰而言的? 對於凱文?
09:07
But then, why does he write so
many許多 books圖書 about manifest表現 truth真相?
211
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但是呢, 為什麼他寫了這麼多自我告白真相的書籍?
09:10
In view視圖 of the uncertainty不確定, we must必須 define確定 heretics外道
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在不確定中, 我們需要定義異教徒
09:12
simply只是 as one with whom we disagree不同意.
213
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只是為了看清我們不同意哪些人
09:14
And if then we are going to kill heretics外道,
214
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1972
如果我們將要處死異教徒,
09:16
the logical合乎邏輯 outcome結果 will be a war戰爭 of extermination滅絕,
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而每一個人都確定自己是對的,
09:18
since以來 each is sure of himself他自己.
216
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那理性的結果是一場滅絕性的戰爭。
09:20
SPSP: Or with hideous可怕 punishments處罰
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那關於那些像是破輪的
09:22
like breaking破壞 on the wheel?
218
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殘忍刑罰也是嗎
09:23
RNGRNG: The prohibition禁令 in our constitution憲法
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我們憲法中之所以會禁止
09:26
of cruel殘忍 and unusual異常 punishments處罰
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殘忍和不尋常的處罰
09:28
was a response響應 to a pamphlet小冊子 circulated流傳 in 1764
221
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也是在1764年流傳了一本由義大利法學家
09:32
by the Italian意大利 jurist法學家 Cesare切薩雷 Beccaria貝卡利亞.
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西薩爾·貝卡里亞所著的小冊子的關係
09:35
Cesare切薩雷 Beccaria貝卡利亞: As punishments處罰
become成為 more cruel殘忍,
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西薩爾·貝卡里亞: 當懲罰變的更加的嚴峻,
09:37
the minds頭腦 of men男人, which哪一個 like fluids流體
224
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人們的思想像是流質一樣
09:39
always adjust調整 to the level水平 of the objects對象
225
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總是適應著
09:41
that surround環繞 them, become成為 hardened硬化,
226
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1879
圍繞著他們的物體, 然後慢慢堅固
09:43
and after a hundred years年份 of cruel殘忍 punishments處罰,
227
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經過幾百年嚴峻的懲罰,
09:46
breaking破壞 on the wheel causes原因 no more fear恐懼
228
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打破那些圓圈並無法
09:48
than imprisonment徒刑 previously先前 did.
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比原來的監禁造成更多的恐慌。
09:50
For a punishment懲罰 to achieve實現 its objective目的,
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對於用懲罰達到目的,
09:53
it is only necessary必要 that the harm危害 that it inflicts對敵人造成
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只有當犯罪帶來的傷害
09:55
outweighs勝過 the benefit效益 that derives導出 from the crime犯罪,
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超過了帶來的好處,
09:58
and into this calculation計算 ought應該 to be factored因式分解
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然後在算式中放入
10:00
the certainty肯定 of punishment懲罰
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處罰的确定性
10:02
and the loss失利 of the good
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和利益的失去
10:03
that the commission佣金 of the crime犯罪 will produce生產.
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犯罪的限制才會產生。
10:06
Everything beyond this is superfluous多餘,
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所有其他的東西都是膚淺的,
10:08
and therefore因此 tyrannical強橫.
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因此是專制的。
10:10
SPSP: But surely一定 antiwar反戰 movements運動 depended依賴
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史迪芬:可是反戰運動卻是由
10:12
on mass demonstrations示威
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大眾示威、
10:13
and catchy上口 tunes曲調 by folk民間 singers歌手
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民謠歌手創作的朗朗上口音樂、
10:16
and wrenching痛苦 photographs照片
of the human人的 costs成本 of war戰爭.
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還有揭示人類因戰爭付出的代價的相片構成的
10:18
RNGRNG: No doubt懷疑, but modern現代 anti-war防戰 movements運動
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沒錯,不過現代的反戰運動
10:22
reach達到 back to a long chain of thinkers思想家
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可以回朔到一連串的思考家
10:24
who had argued爭論 as to why we ought應該 to mobilize動員
245
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他們提出為什麼我們應該動員我們的情緒
10:27
our emotions情緒 against反對 war戰爭,
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來達到反戰的目的
10:29
such這樣 as the father父親 of modernity現代, Erasmus伊拉斯謨.
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其中一個例子就是現代之父:伊拉斯謨
10:32
Erasmus伊拉斯謨: The advantages優點 derived派生 from peace和平
248
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1857
伊拉斯謨:來自和平地好處
10:34
diffuse擴散 themselves他們自己 far and wide,
249
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逐漸影響深遠,
10:36
and reach達到 great numbers數字,
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1899
和多數的人,
10:38
while in war戰爭, if anything turns out happily高高興興,
251
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戰爭時期, 如果任何事情有好的結局,
10:40
the advantage優點 redoundsredounds only to a few少數,
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好處儘儘去到了少數人手裡
10:42
and those unworthy不值得 of reaping收穫 it.
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2011
和那些不值得擁有的人收獲著勝利的果實。
10:44
One man's男人的 safety安全 is owing虧欠的
to the destruction毀壞 of another另一個.
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一個人的安全來自於另外一個人的毀滅
10:47
One man's男人的 prize is derived派生
from the plunder掠奪 of another另一個.
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一個人的獎勵來自於另外一個人的損失。
10:50
The cause原因 of rejoicings欣喜 made製作 by one side
256
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一個對於一方是值得慶賀的事情
10:52
is to the other a cause原因 of mourning.
257
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對於另外一方是值得弔唁的事情。
10:54
Whatever隨你 is unfortunate不幸的 in war戰爭,
258
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不管戰爭多麼的不幸,
10:56
is severely嚴重 so indeed確實,
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他們是真實而嚴重的存在,
10:57
and whatever隨你, on the contrary相反,
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但是不管如何, 另外一方,
10:59
is called good fortune幸運,
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都會叫做勝利,
11:00
is a savage野蠻人 and a cruel殘忍 good fortune幸運,
262
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是一個野蠻而殘酷的勝利,
11:02
an ungenerous吝嗇 happiness幸福 deriving推導
its existence存在 from another's他人的 woe榮辱與共.
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一個建立在他人悲哀上的不善的幸福
11:05
SPSP: But everyone大家 knows知道 that the movement運動
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史迪芬: 但是每個人都應該知道這個運動
11:07
to abolish廢除 slavery奴隸制度 depended依賴 on faith信仰 and emotion情感.
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是靠信念和情感除去奴役。
11:11
It was a movement運動 spearheaded帶頭 by the Quakers貴格會,
266
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這是一個貴格會教徒帶領的運動,
11:13
and it only became成為 popular流行 when
Harriet哈里特 Beecher比徹 Stowe's斯托夫人 novel小說
267
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但是它開始流行是因為哈裡特比奇托斯的小說
11:16
"Uncle叔叔 Tom's湯姆 Cabin" became成為 a bestseller暢銷書.
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”湯姆叔叔的小屋“成為了最佳小說。
11:18
RNGRNG: But the ball got rolling壓延 a century世紀 before.
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瑞貝卡: 但是這個思想是一個世紀以前就有的了
11:21
John約翰 Locke洛克 bucked逆勢 the tide浪潮 of millennia千年
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約翰洛克頂住了幾千年來的浪潮
11:25
that had regarded認為 the practice實踐 as perfectly完美 natural自然.
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把這個思想看作完全正常的想法。
11:28
He argued爭論 that it was inconsistent不符
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他爭辯道這是不一致的
11:31
with the principles原則 of rational合理的 government政府.
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根據理性領導的原則
11:32
John約翰 Locke洛克: Freedom自由 of men男人 under government政府
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約翰 洛克:在管理下的人類的自由
11:34
is to have a standing常設 rule規則 to live生活 by
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是為了人們能夠有生存的準則
11:36
common共同 to everyone大家 of that society社會
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於社會上的每一個人都有一個共同的認知
11:38
and made製作 by the legislative立法 power功率 erected架設 in it,
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和法制的力量去剔除不同的,
11:41
a liberty自由 to follow跟隨 my own擁有 will in all things
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追隨自己的內心的自由
11:43
where that rule規則 prescribes規定 not,
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在一個制度控制的環境不允許,
11:45
not to be subject學科 to the inconstant易變的,
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不經受他人專制形成的不穩定
11:47
uncertain不確定, unknown未知, arbitrary隨意 will of another另一個 man,
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不確定, 未知, 專制的想法。
11:51
as freedom自由 of nature性質 is to
be under no other restraint克制
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自然的自由是不被約束的
11:53
but the law of nature性質.
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這是自然的法則。
11:55
SPSP: Those words sound聲音 familiar.
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史迪芬: 這些話聽起來很耳熟
11:57
Where have I read them before? Ah, yes.
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我一定在那裡聽過。啊,是的
12:00
Mary瑪麗 Astell阿斯特爾: If absolute絕對 sovereignty主權
be not necessary必要
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瑪麗: 如果一個國家不需要一個統治者
12:02
in a state, how comes it to be so in a family家庭?
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為什麼在家庭裡需要?
12:05
Or if in a family家庭, why not in a state?
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或如果家庭需要,為何國家不需要?
12:08
Since以來 no reason原因 can be alleged所謂的 for the one
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既然沒有任何理由
12:10
that will not hold保持 more strongly非常 for the other,
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證明一種比另一種更好,
12:12
if all men男人 are born天生 free自由,
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如果所有的人天生都是自由的,
12:13
how is it that all women婦女 are born天生 slaves奴隸,
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為什麼所有的女人生下來就是奴隸
12:16
as they must必須 be if being存在 subjected
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如同她們必須經受
12:18
to the inconstant易變的, uncertain不確定,
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不穩定,不確定, 和未知的
12:20
unknown未知, arbitrary隨意 will of men男人
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男性的專制
12:23
be the perfect完善 condition條件 of slavery奴隸制度?
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成為完美的奴隸?
12:26
RNGRNG: That sort分類 of co-option共選擇
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瑞貝卡:這種接納、同化
12:28
is all in the job工作 description描述 of reason原因.
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就是理性的一種作用。
12:30
One movement運動 for the expansion擴張 of rights權利
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一個權益擴張的運動啓發了另外一個
12:32
inspires激勵 another另一個 because the logic邏輯 is the same相同,
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因為他們的理念是一样的,
12:36
and once一旦 that's hammered敲定 home,
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當它開始震撼我們原來的想法,
12:38
it becomes increasingly日益 uncomfortable不舒服
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逐漸變成了
12:41
to ignore忽視 the inconsistency前後矛盾.
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無法忽視的不穩定。
12:43
In the 1960s, the Civil國內 Rights Movement運動
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在20世紀60年代, 公民權利運動
12:46
inspired啟發 the movements運動 for women's女士的 rights權利,
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啓發了婦女權利運動,
12:47
children's兒童 rights權利, gay同性戀者 rights權利 and even animal動物 rights權利.
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兒童權利,同性戀權利, 甚至是動物權利。
12:51
But fully充分 two centuries百年 before,
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但是兩個世紀以前,
12:54
the Enlightenment啟示 thinker思想家 Jeremy傑里米 Bentham邊沁
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啓蒙思想家傑諾米邊沁
12:56
had exposed裸露 the indefensibility不可抵賴
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披露了習慣行為的無法防衛
12:58
of customary習慣性 practices做法 such這樣 as
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披露了習慣行為的無法防衛
13:01
the cruelty殘酷 to animals動物.
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比如說人類對動物的殘暴。
13:03
Jeremy傑里米 Bentham邊沁: The question
is not, can they reason原因,
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潔里米邊沁: 問題不是, 他們是否能爭辯,
13:05
nor也不 can they talk, but can they suffer遭受?
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也不是他們能否說話, 而是他們是否能夠煎熬?
13:09
RNGRNG: And the persecution迫害 of homosexuals同性戀者.
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瑞貝卡: 和處理同性戀問題一樣。
13:12
JBJB: As to any primary mischief惡作劇,
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1968
潔里米邊沁: 如同任何一個主要惡作劇,
13:14
it's evident明顯 that it produces產生 no pain疼痛 in anyone任何人.
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這個證明是沒有帶給任何人疼痛。
13:17
On the contrary相反, it produces產生 pleasure樂趣.
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相反的, 它帶來的是歡愉。
13:19
The partners夥伴 are both willing願意.
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雙方相互願意。
13:21
If either of them be unwilling不甘,
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如果他們的任何一方不願意,
13:22
the act法案 is an offense罪行,
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那這個將是一種犯罪,
13:23
totally完全 different不同 in its nature性質 of effects效果.
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完全於自然的影響相反。
13:26
It's a personal個人 injury. It's a kind of rape強姦.
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是一種個人的受傷。 是強姦的其中一種。
13:28
As to the any danger危險 exclusive獨家 of pain疼痛,
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如同任何一個只有疼痛的危險,
13:31
the danger危險, if any, much consist組成
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危險,如果有任何,大部份是由
13:32
in the tendency趨勢 of the example.
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前例的趨勢組成。
13:34
But what is the tendency趨勢 of this example?
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但是什麼是前例的趨勢呢?
13:37
To dispose部署 others其他 to engage從事 in the same相同 practices做法.
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來使其他的人來加入同樣的行為。
13:39
But this practice實踐 produces產生 not pain疼痛 of any kind
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但是這個行為帶來的
13:42
to anyone任何人.
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不是任何的疼痛。
13:44
SPSP: Still, in every一切 case案件, it took at least最小 a century世紀
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史迪芬:儘管如此, 在每一個例子中,這偉大思想家們的爭論
13:46
for the arguments參數 of these great thinkers思想家
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至少會延續一個世紀
13:48
to trickle down and infiltrate浸潤
the population人口 as a whole整個.
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3405
去滲透和影響所有的人。
13:52
It kind of makes品牌 you wonder奇蹟 about our own擁有 time.
333
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這些讓你思考你自己的時代。
13:54
Are there practices做法 that we engage從事 in
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是否我們的行為作風
13:56
where the arguments參數 against反對
them are there for all to see
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2795
被爭議所指責
13:59
but nonetheless儘管如此, we persist堅持 in them?
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但我們也會繼續堅持?
14:01
RNGRNG: When our great grandchildren孫子 look back at us,
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瑞貝卡:當我們的子孫後代回想起我們,
14:04
will they be as appalled by some of our practices做法
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他們是否會對一些我們的行為覺得是吸引人的
14:07
as we are by our slave-owning奴隸主, heretic-burning異端燃燒,
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如果我們對於我們奴役占有,燒死異教徒,
14:11
wife-beating打老婆, gay-bashing同性戀撲 ancestors祖先?
340
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打妻子, 揍同性戀的先人們?
14:14
SPSP: I'm sure everyone大家 here
could think of an example.
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史迪芬: 我確信每一個這裡的人都能想起一個例子。
14:17
RNGRNG: I opt選擇 for the mistreatment虐待 of animals動物
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瑞貝卡: 我選擇在工業農場裡對
14:19
in factory farms農場.
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動物的不公。
14:21
SPSP: The imprisonment徒刑 of nonviolent非暴力 drug藥物 offenders罪犯
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史迪芬: 監禁不暴力的毒品罪犯
14:23
and the toleration容忍 of rape強姦 in our nation's國家 prisons監獄.
345
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和對我們國家監獄內的強姦的忽視。
14:25
RNGRNG: Scrimping on donations捐款 to life-saving救生 charities慈善機構
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瑞貝卡:對那些在發展中國家救命的
14:28
in the developing發展 world世界.
347
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1657
的慈善機構的掠奪。
14:30
SPSP: The possession所有權 of nuclear weapons武器.
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史迪芬: 對核武器的癡迷。
14:32
RNGRNG: The appeal上訴 to religion宗教 to justify辯解
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瑞貝卡:利用宗教來用其他方式無法證明
14:35
the otherwise除此以外 unjustifiable無理,
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是正當行為的,
14:36
such這樣 as the ban禁止 on contraception避孕.
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比如說禁止使用避孕藥。
14:39
SPSP: What about religious宗教 faith信仰 in general一般?
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史迪芬: 宗教信仰呢?
14:41
RNGRNG: Eh, I'm not holding保持 my breath呼吸.
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瑞貝卡: 嗯, 我一點都沒有緊張。
14:43
SPSP: Still, I have become成為 convinced相信
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史迪芬:但是, 我開始信服
14:45
that reason原因 is a better angel天使
355
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理智是一個最好的天使
14:46
that deserves值得 the greatest最大 credit信用
356
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值得獲得贊許
14:48
for the moral道德 progress進展 our species種類 has enjoyed享受
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為了我族類所享受的道德進步
14:51
and that holds持有 out the greatest最大 hope希望
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和擁有的巨大的希望
14:53
for continuing繼續 moral道德 progress進展 in the future未來.
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對於未來道德的發展。
14:56
RNGRNG: And if, our friends朋友,
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瑞貝卡: 如果,朋友們,
14:58
you detect檢測 a flaw缺陷 in this argument論據,
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你察覺到這個爭辯裡的缺陷,
15:00
just remember記得 you'll你會 be depending根據 on reason原因
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記得你將會依靠理智
15:04
to point it out.
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去指出這些缺陷
15:05
Thank you.
SPSP: Thank you.
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謝謝。
史迪芬:謝謝
15:08
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
Translated by Yijing Cai
Reviewed by Xiaoou Chen

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ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein - Philosopher and writer
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein writes novels and nonfiction that explore questions of philosophy, morality and being.

Why you should listen

In her latest book, Plato at the Googleplex: Why Philosophy Won't Go Away, Rebecca Newberger Goldstein makes the case for the importance of philosophy -- even as neuroscience tells us more about our brains, and connective technologies teach us more about the world around us. It's written in the form of a Socratic dialog, a form that Goldstein is passionate about teaching and exploring.

Meanwhile, her novels, from The Mind-Body Problem (Contemporary American Fiction) to 2011's 36 Arguments for the Existence of God: A Work of Fiction (Vintage Contemporaries), use techniques of fiction to untangle philosophical questions, such as: How should we balance heart and mind? What should we have faith in?

In 1996 Goldstein became a MacArthur Fellow, receiving the prize popularly known as the “Genius Award.” She was designated Humanist of the Year 2011 by the American Humanist Association. She's also the author of Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity, a combination memoir and history.

More profile about the speaker
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein | Speaker | TED.com
Steven Pinker - Psychologist
Steven Pinker is a professor of cognitive science (the study of the human mind) who writes about language, mind and human nature.

Why you should listen

Steven Pinker grew up in the English-speaking community of Montreal but has spent his adult life bouncing back and forth between Harvard and MIT. He is interested in all aspects of human nature: how we see, hear, think, speak, remember, feel and interact.

To be specific: he developed the first comprehensive theory of language acquisition in children, used verb meaning as a window into cognition, probed the limits of neural networks and showed how the interaction between memory and computation shapes language. He has used evolution to illuminate innuendo, emotional expression and social coordination. He has documented historical declines in violence and explained them in terms of the ways that the violent and peaceable components of human nature interact in different eras. He has written books on the language instinct, how the mind works, the stuff of thought and the doctrine of the blank slate, together with a guide to stylish writing that is rooted in psychology.

In his latest book, Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress, he writes about progress -- why people are healthier, richer, safer, happier and better educated than ever. His other books include The Language InstinctHow the Mind Works, The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human NatureThe Stuff of Thought, and The Better Angels of Our Nature.

More profile about the speaker
Steven Pinker | Speaker | TED.com