TED2005
James Watson: How we discovered DNA
詹姆士·沃森的DNA探索之旅
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诺贝尔奖得主詹姆士·沃森以一个真实而有趣的故事为TED 2005揭开帷幕——他是如何和他的研究伙伴弗朗西斯·克里克破解了DNA的结构之谜。
James Watson - Biologist, Nobel laureate
Nobel laureate James Watson took part in one of the most important scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century: the discovery of the structure of DNA. More than 50 years later, he continues to investigate biology's deepest secrets. Full bio
Nobel laureate James Watson took part in one of the most important scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century: the discovery of the structure of DNA. More than 50 years later, he continues to investigate biology's deepest secrets. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:25
Well, I thought there would be a podium, so I'm a bit scared.
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我本来以为那里会有一个讲台的，现在我有点害怕了。
00:28
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:31
Chris asked me to tell again how we found the structure of DNA.
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克里斯让我再讲一次我们是怎么破解DNA的结构的。
00:34
And since, you know, I follow his orders, I'll do it.
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我一向都是听从他的指令，这一次自然也不例外。
00:37
But it slightly bores me.
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但说实话，我是觉得挺无聊的。
00:39
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:41
And, you know, I wrote a book. So I'll say something --
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我写了一整本书，所以我不得不说点什么——
00:46
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:48
-- I'll say a little about, you know, how the discovery was made,
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——我打算讲一讲我和弗朗西斯是怎么发现DNA的结构的，
00:51
and why Francis and I found it.
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以及我们搞这项研究的原因所在。
00:53
And then, I hope maybe I have at least five minutes to say
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然后我希望能至少有五分钟的时间，
00:57
what makes me tick now.
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让我讨论一下我现在的动力所在。
01:01
In back of me is a picture of me when I was 17.
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我身后是一张我17岁时的照片。
01:06
I was at the University of Chicago, in my third year,
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我那时在芝加哥大学，读大三。
01:09
and I was in my third year because the University of Chicago
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我之所以能在17岁时就读大三，是因为芝加哥大学
01:15
let you in after two years of high school.
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在我读了两年高中之后就录取我了。
01:17
So you -- it was fun to get away from high school -- (Laughter) --
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摆脱高中对我来说是件好事，
01:23
because I was very small, and I was no good in sports,
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因为我长得很矮小，又不擅长体育，
01:26
or anything like that.
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也没其他的特长。
01:27
But I should say that my background -- my father was, you know,
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但我得提一下我的生长背景——我的父亲从小到大
01:33
raised to be an Episcopalian and Republican,
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都是一名圣公会教徒，是一名共和党员。
01:35
but after one year of college, he became an atheist and a Democrat.
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结果才上了一年大学，他不仅不信神了，还变成了一名民主党员。
01:40
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:43
And my mother was Irish Catholic,
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我母亲是爱尔兰天主教徒，
01:45
and -- but she didn't take religion too seriously.
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但她从来没把宗教太当回儿事。
01:50
And by the age of 11, I was no longer going to Sunday Mass,
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所以11岁那年，我就不再去听星期天的弥撒了，
01:54
and going on birdwatching walks with my father.
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反而是跟我的父亲去到处观察鸟。
01:58
So early on, I heard of Charles Darwin.
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我很早就听说过达尔文，
02:02
I guess, you know, he was the big hero.
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我那时候猜他也算是个大英雄。
02:05
And, you know, you understand life as it now exists through evolution.
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你们也都知道现今的生命是通过漫长的演化而来的。
02:11
And at the University of Chicago I was a zoology major,
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而我当时在芝加哥大学又是主修动物学，
02:15
and thought I would end up, you know, if I was bright enough,
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所以我就想，要是我够聪明的话，
02:18
maybe getting a Ph.D. from Cornell in ornithology.
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搞不好最后能从康奈尔大学得到个鸟类学博士学位。
02:23
Then, in the Chicago paper, there was a review of a book
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恰巧当时在芝加哥的报纸上有一篇书评，
02:29
called "What is Life?" by the great physicist, Schrodinger.
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是介绍伟大的物理学家薛定谔写的一本叫做《何谓生命？》的书。
02:33
And that, of course, had been a question I wanted to know.
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当然了，那也是我一直都在探求的一个问题。
02:36
You know, Darwin explained life after it got started,
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达尔文是解释了生命的演变，没错，
02:39
but what was the essence of life?
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但生命的精髓到底是什么呢？
02:41
And Schrodinger said the essence was information
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薛定谔认为这精髓就是信息，
02:45
present in our chromosomes, and it had to be present
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是我们染色体里的信息，而且这些信息必须由一个分子来承载。
02:49
on a molecule. I'd never really thought of molecules before.
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我只前从来没怎么想过分子。
02:55
You know chromosomes, but this was a molecule,
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是，我听说过染色体，但我们现在是在说一个分子，
02:59
and somehow all the information was probably present
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而且所有的生命信息都很有可能以数码的形式
03:02
in some digital form. And there was the big question
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被写进这个分子中。啊，问题就来了，
03:06
of, how did you copy the information?
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你要怎么复制这些信息呢？
03:08
So that was the book. And so, from that moment on,
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那本书就是讨论这些问题。所以从那时起，
03:13
I wanted to be a geneticist --
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我就立志要成为一名遗传学家——
03:18
understand the gene and, through that, understand life.
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通过理解基因来理解生命。
03:20
So I had, you know, a hero at a distance.
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我当时也有了自己仰慕的英雄。
03:25
It wasn't a baseball player; it was Linus Pauling.
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不是什么棒球英豪，而是鲍林。
03:27
And so I applied to Caltech and they turned me down.
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所以我就申请进入加州理工学院，没想到他们竟然没要我。
03:33
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
03:35
So I went to Indiana,
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没办法，我只好去印第安纳大学。
03:36
which was actually as good as Caltech in genetics,
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其实那里的基因专业和加州工学院没什么差别。
03:39
and besides, they had a really good basketball team. (Laughter)
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再说了，印第安纳的篮球队可是相当不错。
03:43
So I had a really quite happy life at Indiana.
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所以我在那里的生活也算得上是快乐。
03:46
And it was at Indiana I got the impression
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而且正是在印第安纳的时候，我开始觉得
03:49
that, you know, the gene was likely to be DNA.
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我们的DNA很有可能就是我们的基因。
03:51
And so when I got my Ph.D., I should go and search for DNA.
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等到我拿到我的博士学位后，我就可以去研究DNA了。
03:55
So I first went to Copenhagen because I thought, well,
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哥本哈根成了我的第一站，因为我觉得
04:01
maybe I could become a biochemist,
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也许我可以成为一个生物化学家。
04:02
but I discovered biochemistry was very boring.
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但后来我才发现生物化学真的是相当无聊。
04:05
It wasn't going anywhere toward, you know, saying what the gene was;
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它跟基因的本质完全没什么关联，
04:09
it was just nuclear science. And oh, that's the book, little book.
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只是一味地探讨核科学。哦，这就是我之前提到的那本书，
04:13
You can read it in about two hours.
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不长，两个小时就可以读完。
04:15
And -- but then I went to a meeting in Italy.
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但我之后在意大利参加一个会议的时候，
04:19
And there was an unexpected speaker who wasn't on the program,
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遇到了一个原本不在节目单上的演讲者，
04:24
and he talked about DNA.
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而他演讲的主题恰恰是DNA。
04:26
And this was Maurice Wilkins. He was trained as a physicist,
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这是莫里斯·威尔金斯，物理学家出身。
04:29
and after the war he wanted to do biophysics, and he picked DNA
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二战后他决定从事生物物理学，而DNA正是他的研究对象，
04:33
because DNA had been determined at the Rockefeller Institute
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因为当时洛克菲勒研究所已经证实
04:36
to possibly be the genetic molecules on the chromosomes.
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染色体上的基因分子很有可能就是DNA。
04:40
Most people believed it was proteins.
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但很多人却觉得应该是蛋白质。
04:41
But Wilkins, you know, thought DNA was the best bet,
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不过威尔金斯还是认为DNA才是最有可能的遗传物质，
04:45
and he showed this x-ray photograph.
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并且展示了这张X光照片。
04:49
Sort of crystalline. So DNA had a structure,
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有点像个结晶体。所以DNA是有这样的一个结构，
04:53
even though it owed it to probably different molecules
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尽管说不同的分子
04:56
carrying different sets of instructions.
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很可能肩负着不同的职责。
04:58
So there was something universal about the DNA molecule.
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但至少所有DNA分子的结构都是一致的。
05:00
So I wanted to work with him, but he didn't want a former birdwatcher,
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所以我当时就很想跟他合作，但他并不需要一个鸟类观察家。
05:05
and I ended up in Cambridge, England.
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没办法，我只好去英国剑桥。
05:06
So I went to Cambridge,
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我之所以会去剑桥，
05:08
because it was really the best place in the world then
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是因为那里才是研究射线晶体学的最好地方。
05:11
for x-ray crystallography. And x-ray crystallography is now a subject
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现在的射线晶体学，
05:15
in, you know, chemistry departments.
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通常是化学系的研究对象。
05:17
I mean, in those days it was the domain of the physicists.
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不过在当时，那可是物理学家的天下。
05:20
So the best place for x-ray crystallography
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所以研究射线晶体学最好的地方
05:24
was at the Cavendish Laboratory at Cambridge.
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就是剑桥的卡文迪许实验室。
05:27
And there I met Francis Crick.
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而我就是在那里结识了弗朗西斯·克里克。
05:33
I went there without knowing him. He was 35. I was 23.
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当时我并不认识他。他那时候35岁，我23岁。
05:36
And within a day, we had decided that
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不过一天之内，我们就决定
05:41
maybe we could take a shortcut to finding the structure of DNA.
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也许我们可以通过一条捷径来破解DNA的结构。
05:46
Not solve it like, you know, in rigorous fashion, but build a model,
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并不是一步一步按部就班地来破解，而是直接构建一个结构模型。
05:52
an electro-model, using some coordinates of, you know,
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用X光照片里的那些长度坐标什么的
05:56
length, all that sort of stuff from x-ray photographs.
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来构建一个电子模型。
05:59
But just ask what the molecule -- how should it fold up?
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直接来思考这个分子应该怎么叠起来？
06:02
And the reason for doing so, at the center of this photograph,
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为什么这么叠？这个照片中间的那位
06:06
is Linus Pauling. About six months before, he proposed
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就是鲍林。大概六个月前，他已经提出了
06:09
the alpha helical structure for proteins. And in doing so,
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蛋白质的阿尔法螺旋结构。也正因此，
06:13
he banished the man out on the right,
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是彻底击垮了站在他右边的劳伦斯·布拉格爵士。
06:15
Sir Lawrence Bragg, who was the Cavendish professor.
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布拉格当时是卡文迪许的教授。
06:18
This is a photograph several years later,
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这张照片是几年后拍的，
06:20
when Bragg had cause to smile.
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布拉格只能是强颜欢笑。
06:22
He certainly wasn't smiling when I got there,
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我到那里的时候，他可是完全笑不出来。
06:24
because he was somewhat humiliated by Pauling getting the alpha helix,
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因为他觉得鲍林的阿尔法螺旋发现让他丢脸了，
06:28
and the Cambridge people failing because they weren't chemists.
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剑桥人的失败让他丢脸了，毕竟他们并不是化学家。
06:32
And certainly, neither Crick or I were chemists,
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当然了，我和克里克也不是什么化学家。
06:37
so we tried to build a model. And he knew, Francis knew Wilkins.
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所以我们才想要直接搭建模型。弗朗西斯那时候认识威尔金斯。
06:43
So Wilkins said he thought it was the helix.
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威尔金斯当时觉得DNA应该是个螺旋结构，
06:45
X-ray diagram, he thought was comparable with the helix.
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他觉得那个X光图片看上去像是个螺旋。
06:48
So we built a three-stranded model.
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所以我们就构建了个三股的螺旋结构。
06:50
The people from London came up.
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伦敦的那帮人就过来看，
06:52
Wilkins and this collaborator, or possible collaborator,
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威尔金斯和他的合作伙伴罗莎琳·富兰克林
06:57
Rosalind Franklin, came up and sort of laughed at our model.
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过来看过我们的模型后，对它有点嗤之以鼻。
07:00
They said it was lousy, and it was.
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他们觉得我们的模型相当烂。它确实是挺烂的。
07:02
So we were told to build no more models; we were incompetent.
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他们告诉我们不要再造模型了，我们没这个能力。
07:07
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
07:11
And so we didn't build any models,
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于是乎，我们就不再造模型了。
07:13
and Francis sort of continued to work on proteins.
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弗朗西斯继续研究他的蛋白质。
07:16
And basically, I did nothing. And -- except read.
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我则是除了读书以外，什么都没干。
07:22
You know, basically, reading is a good thing; you get facts.
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要知道读书总是件好事，你可以增长知识。
07:25
And we kept telling the people in London
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我们当时就一直告诉伦敦的那些人
07:28
that Linus Pauling's going to move on to DNA.
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鲍林要着手研究DNA了。
07:30
If DNA is that important, Linus will know it.
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如果DNA真的那么重要，鲍林肯定是知道的呀。
07:32
He'll build a model, and then we're going to be scooped.
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他肯定会构造一个模型，到时候我们就都算是落伍了。
07:34
And, in fact, he'd written the people in London:
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事实上，他的确是给伦敦的人写了封信：
07:36
Could he see their x-ray photograph?
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他想看看他们的X光照片。
07:39
And they had the wisdom to say "no." So he didn't have it.
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还好伦敦的那帮人算是聪明，拒绝了他。他也因此没看到那张照片。
07:42
But there was ones in the literature.
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不过当时各种文献中都有那张照片，
07:44
Actually, Linus didn't look at them that carefully.
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只不过鲍林没有看得那么仔细。
07:46
But about, oh, 15 months after I got to Cambridge,
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可是当我到达剑桥15个月后，
07:52
a rumor began to appear from Linus Pauling's son,
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鲍林在剑桥的儿子开始散播传闻，
07:55
who was in Cambridge, that his father was now working on DNA.
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说他的爸爸正在研究DNA。
07:59
And so, one day Peter came in and he said he was Peter Pauling,
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结果有一天彼得找到我，他说他是彼得·鲍林，
08:03
and he gave me a copy of his father's manuscripts.
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然后他就把他老爸的手稿递给了我。
08:05
And boy, I was scared because I thought, you know, we may be scooped.
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我当时就吓傻了，我以为他比我们抢先一步。
08:11
I have nothing to do, no qualifications for anything.
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我没有文凭，一无是处的。这下子可完了。
08:14
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:16
And so there was the paper, and he proposed a three-stranded structure.
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这就是那篇论文，他在里面提出了一个三股的结构，
08:22
And I read it, and it was just -- it was crap.
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我读完了之后就觉得他根本是在胡言乱语。
08:24
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:29
So this was, you know, unexpected from the world's --
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这对于他这位世界级的人物来说，的确是有失水准。
08:32
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:34
-- and so, it was held together by hydrogen bonds
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他认为DNA是通过磷酸团之间的氢键
08:37
between phosphate groups.
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来支撑起来的。
08:39
Well, if the peak pH that cells have is around seven,
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可是，如果细胞中的pH峰值大概是在7左右的话，
08:43
those hydrogen bonds couldn't exist.
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那些氢键根本就无法存在嘛。
08:46
We rushed over to the chemistry department and said,
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我们是直奔化学系，去问那里的人：“鲍林有可能是正确的吗？”
08:48
"Could Pauling be right?" And Alex Hust said, "No." So we were happy.
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亚历克斯回答说：“没可能。”我们这下可是乐坏了。
08:54
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:56
And, you know, we were still in the game, but we were frightened
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我们还是有机会的，不过我们也是有点担心
08:59
that somebody at Caltech would tell Linus that he was wrong.
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担心加州工学院的那些人会告诉鲍林他搞错了。
09:03
And so Bragg said, "Build models."
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于是布拉格就说，“我们得造模型。”
09:05
And a month after we got the Pauling manuscript --
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在我们收到鲍林手稿的一个月后——
09:09
I should say I took the manuscript to London, and showed the people.
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确切地说，是我把手稿带到了伦敦，给那里的人看过。
09:14
Well, I said, Linus was wrong and that we're still in the game
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我当时就说鲍林是错的，我们还有机会。
09:17
and that they should immediately start building models.
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我还告诉他们应该马上开始构造模型。
09:19
But Wilkins said "no." Rosalind Franklin was leaving in about two months,
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但威尔克斯却把我给否决了。他说罗莎琳两个月之后就要离开了，
09:24
and after she left he would start building models.
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等她走了，他就开始造模型。
09:27
And so I came back with that news to Cambridge,
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没办法，我只能把消息如实地传达给剑桥，
09:31
and Bragg said, "Build models."
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当时布拉格就说，“造——模——型。”
09:32
Well, of course, I wanted to build models.
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当然了，我是一直都想要构造模型的。
09:33
And there's a picture of Rosalind. She really, you know,
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这就是罗莎琳的照片。她其实，怎么说呢，
09:39
in one sense she was a chemist,
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从某个意义上讲，算是个化学家。
09:41
but really she would have been trained --
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但她从没有接受过专业的训练。
09:43
she didn't know any organic chemistry or quantum chemistry.
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有机化学、量子化学她都是一窍不通。
09:46
She was a crystallographer.
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她其实是一个结晶学家。
09:47
And I think part of the reason she didn't want to build models
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而我觉得她不想建造模型的一部分原因
09:52
was, she wasn't a chemist, whereas Pauling was a chemist.
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就是因为她不是化学家，而鲍林则是位十足的化学家。
09:55
And so Crick and I, you know, started building models,
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于是克里克和我就开始构造模型。
10:00
and I'd learned a little chemistry, but not enough.
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我学过一丁点的化学，但不够用。
10:03
Well, we got the answer on the 28th February '53.
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不管怎样，我们在1953年的2月28日终于破解了DNA的谜团。
10:07
And it was because of a rule, which, to me, is a very good rule:
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这一切都是因为我始终坚信的一条法则：
10:11
Never be the brightest person in a room, and we weren't.
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永远别做最聪明的人。我们也的确不是。
10:17
We weren't the best chemists in the room.
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我们不是那里最优秀的化学家。
10:19
I went in and showed them a pairing I'd done,
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我有一次把我刚刚做好的分子配对图给那些化学家们看，
10:21
and Jerry Donohue -- he was a chemist -- he said, it's wrong.
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唐诺休——他是名化学家——看了之后就说：“你画错了。
10:25
You've got -- the hydrogen atoms are in the wrong place.
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你把氢原子放错地方了。”
10:28
I just put them down like they were in the books.
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我其实就是按照书里面画的。
10:31
He said they were wrong.
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但他说我画错了。
10:32
So the next day, you know, after I thought, "Well, he might be right."
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于是第二天，我想了想，“搞不好他是对的。”
10:36
So I changed the locations, and then we found the base pairing,
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所以我就更改了那些氢原子的位置。之后我们就发现了碱基之间的搭配组合。
10:40
and Francis immediately said the chains run in absolute directions.
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而弗朗西斯也立即意识到这双螺旋中的链条是以绝对方向延伸的。
10:43
And we knew we were right.
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我们当时就知道我们肯定是对的。
10:45
So it was a pretty, you know, it all happened in about two hours.
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而这一切就发生在两个小时间。
10:52
From nothing to thing.
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从无到有。
10:56
And we knew it was big because, you know, if you just put A next to T
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我们也知道这是个重大的发现，因为如果你把A碱基和T碱基放在一起，
11:01
and G next to C, you have a copying mechanism.
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G和C放在一起，你就可以实现DNA的复制了。
11:04
So we saw how genetic information is carried.
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我们总算弄明白了所谓的基因信息
11:08
It's the order of the four bases.
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是由这4个碱基的排列顺序决定的。
11:09
So in a sense, it is a sort of digital-type information.
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所以说，这也算得上是一种数码信息。
11:13
And you copy it by going from strand-separating.
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把这螺旋中的两股分开，就可以开始复制了。
11:18
So, you know, if it didn't work this way, you might as well believe it,
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就算它不是这么回事，我们也只能相信它是这么回事，
11:26
because you didn't have any other scheme.
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因为你也没有什么其他的选择。
11:27
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
11:30
But that's not the way most scientists think.
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但大多数的科学家都不是这么看待事物的。
11:33
Most scientists are really rather dull.
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大多数的科学家都是相当木讷的。
11:36
They said, we won't think about it until we know it's right.
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他们认为，除非这已经被证实是对的，他们是绝对不会考虑它的。
11:38
But, you know, we thought, well, it's at least 95 percent right or 99 percent right.
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但我们知道我们的理论至少是百分之九十五、九十九正确的。
11:44
So think about it. The next five years,
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所以还是考虑一下吧。在随后的五年里，
11:48
there were essentially something like five references
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我们的理论在《自然》杂志中
11:50
to our work in "Nature" -- none.
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只被提到了五次。
11:53
And so we were left by ourselves,
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没办法，我们只能靠自己了。
11:55
and trying to do the last part of the trio: how do you --
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而我们也只剩下一个待解决的问题——
12:00
what does this genetic information do?
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这些基因信息到底是用来做什么的呢？
12:04
It was pretty obvious that it provided the information
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很明显，它为RNA分子提供信息，
12:08
to an RNA molecule, and then how do you go from RNA to protein?
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但这信息又是怎样从RNA传达到蛋白质的呢？
12:11
For about three years we just -- I tried to solve the structure of RNA.
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我用了大概三年的时间，希望能破解RNA的结构，
12:16
It didn't yield. It didn't give good x-ray photographs.
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但却是一无所获。RNA的X光照片毫无价值。
12:19
I was decidedly unhappy; a girl didn't marry me.
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我是相当得不开心。我爱的女人又不想嫁给我。
12:22
It was really, you know, sort of a shitty time.
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我算是走狗屎运了。
12:25
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
12:28
So there's a picture of Francis and I before I met the girl,
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这是我和弗朗西斯的一张照片，是在我遇到那个女人之前拍的，
12:32
so I'm still looking happy.
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我那时看上去还挺开心的。
12:33
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
12:36
But there is what we did when we didn't know
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当我们不知所措的时候，我们所能做的
12:39
where to go forward: we formed a club and called it the RNA Tie Club.
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也只有成立个小团体，叫做“RNA领带团”。
12:45
George Gamow, also a great physicist, he designed the tie.
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伟大的物理学家乔治·伽莫夫负责设计领带。
12:49
He was one of the members. The question was:
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他也是我们的团员之一。我们探讨的问题是：
12:52
How do you go from a four-letter code
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由四个字母组成的DNA密码
12:54
to the 20-letter code of proteins?
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是怎么转变成由20个字母组成的蛋白质的呢？
12:56
Feynman was a member, and Teller, and friends of Gamow.
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费曼和伽莫夫的朋友泰勒当时都是团员。
13:01
But that's the only -- no, we were only photographed twice.
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我们在一起只拍过一次，不不，是两次照片。
13:07
And on both occasions, you know, one of us was missing the tie.
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每次都会有个人忘记带我们的团队领带。
13:10
There's Francis up on the upper right,
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右上角的是弗朗西斯。
13:13
and Alex Rich -- the M.D.-turned-crystallographer -- is next to me.
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阿里克斯·里奇就坐在我旁边。他之前是医学博士，不过后来变成结晶学家。
13:18
This was taken in Cambridge in September of 1955.
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这张照片是在1995年的九月在剑桥拍的。
13:22
And I'm smiling, sort of forced, I think,
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我当时有在笑，不过是被强迫的，
13:28
because the girl I had, boy, she was gone.
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因为我爱的那个女人，离我远去了。
13:31
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
13:35
And so I didn't really get happy until 1960,
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我直到1960年才变得真正开心起来
13:40
because then we found out, basically, you know,
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因为那一年我们发现了
13:44
that there are three forms of RNA.
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RNA的三种形式。
13:46
And we knew, basically, DNA provides the information for RNA.
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我们也基本上是明白了DNA把信息传给RNA，
13:49
RNA provides the information for protein.
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RNA再把信息传给蛋白质。
13:51
And that let Marshall Nirenberg, you know, take RNA -- synthetic RNA --
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马歇尔·尼伦伯格也因此可以把人造RNA
13:56
put it in a system making protein. He made polyphenylalanine,
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放进培养系统里制造蛋白质出来。他当时合成的是
14:02
polyphenylalanine. So that's the first cracking of the genetic code,
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多聚苯基丙氨酸。那也算是基因密码破解的第一步，
14:10
and it was all over by 1966.
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而到了1966年，一切的密码就都已经被破解了。
14:12
So there, that's what Chris wanted me to do, it was --
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好了，克里斯让我讲的我都讲完了。
14:15
so what happened since then?
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那之后又发生了什么呢？
14:19
Well, at that time -- I should go back.
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我得回过头来讲一下我们刚发现DNA的时候。
14:22
When we found the structure of DNA, I gave my first talk
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当时我的第一个讲座是在冷泉港实验室。
14:27
at Cold Spring Harbor. The physicist, Leo Szilard,
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那里的物理学家列奥·圣拉多就问我：
14:30
he looked at me and said, "Are you going to patent this?"
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“你打算申请专利吗？”
14:33
And -- but he knew patent law, and that we couldn't patent it,
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他其实是懂专利法的，他也知道我们申请不到什么专利，
14:38
because you couldn't. No use for it.
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因为我们的发现根本就没什么大用处。
14:40
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
14:42
And so DNA didn't become a useful molecule,
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于是DNA并没有变成什么有用的分子，
14:46
and the lawyers didn't enter into the equation until 1973,
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律师也是跟我们毫无关联。直到20年后的1973年，
14:51
20 years later, when Boyer and Cohen in San Francisco
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当旧金山和斯坦福的保耶和科亨
14:56
and Stanford came up with their method of recombinant DNA,
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发明了DNA重组技术时，
14:58
and Stanford patented it and made a lot of money.
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斯坦福申请了专利，并且赚了一大笔钱。
15:01
At least they patented something
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至少他们申请的专利
15:02
which, you know, could do useful things.
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还算是有用处。
15:05
And then, they learned how to read the letters for the code.
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之后，他们发现了怎么看懂DNA的编码，
15:08
And, boom, we've, you know, had a biotech industry. And,
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整个生物工程产业也是随之拔地而起。
15:13
but we were still a long ways from, you know,
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但我童年的一个问题
15:20
answering a question which sort of dominated my childhood,
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却一直没有得到解决：
15:22
which is: How do you nature-nurture?
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先天与后天如何合二为一？
15:27
And so I'll go on. I'm already out of time,
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我会接着讲下去，虽然说我已经超时了。
15:31
but this is Michael Wigler, a very, very clever mathematician
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这是迈克尔·威革勒，一个非常非常聪明的数学家。
15:34
turned physicist. And he developed a technique
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后来变成了一名物理学家。他发明了一项技术
15:37
which essentially will let us look at sample DNA
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让我们可以观察DNA样本
15:41
and, eventually, a million spots along it.
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和沿着它的上万个点。
15:43
There's a chip there, a conventional one. Then there's one
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这是一个传统的芯片。而旁边的那个
15:46
made by a photolithography by a company in Madison
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则是麦迪逊一家叫做罗氏的公司利用光刻法制造出来的，
15:49
called NimbleGen, which is way ahead of Affymetrix.
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要比昂飞公司的好得多。
15:54
And we use their technique.
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所以我们使用他们的技术。
15:56
And what you can do is sort of compare DNA of normal segs versus cancer.
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你所能做的基本上就是比较DNA的分子次序。
16:01
And you can see on the top
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这是癌症的DNA。你在上方可以看到
16:05
that cancers which are bad show insertions or deletions.
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这些癌症DNA不是多一块就是少一块，
16:10
So the DNA is really badly mucked up,
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是相当杂乱的。
16:13
whereas if you have a chance of surviving,
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但如果你有幸存的机会的话，
16:15
the DNA isn't so mucked up.
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你的DNA就不会这么杂乱。
16:17
So we think that this will eventually lead to what we call
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我们觉得这最终会引领我们走上“DNA活体检测”的道路。
16:20
"DNA biopsies." Before you get treated for cancer,
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在你治疗癌症前，
16:24
you should really look at this technique,
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真的应该好好看看这项技术。
16:26
and get a feeling of the face of the enemy.
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至少让你知道你所面对的是什么，
16:29
It's not a -- it's only a partial look, but it's a --
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哪怕只是知道一点点也好。
16:32
I think it's going to be very, very useful.
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我觉得这将会是非常非常有用的。
16:35
So, we started with breast cancer
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于是我们就从乳腺癌下手，
16:37
because there's lots of money for it, no government money.
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因为利润丰厚，不需要政府的钱。
16:40
And now I have a sort of vested interest:
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现在我对此有很大的兴趣，
16:44
I want to do it for prostate cancer. So, you know,
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我想研究前列腺癌。因为如果不严重的话，
16:46
you aren't treated if it's not dangerous.
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你就没有必要接受治疗。
16:49
But Wigler, besides looking at cancer cells, looked at normal cells,
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但威革勒不仅仅是研究了癌细胞，他也研究了正常的细胞，
16:55
and made a really sort of surprising observation.
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并且有了惊人的发现。
16:58
Which is, all of us have about 10 places in our genome
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那就是，我们所有人的基因组中都有大概10个地方
17:02
where we've lost a gene or gained another one.
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要么多了个基因，要么少了个基因。
17:05
So we're sort of all imperfect. And the question is well,
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所以说，我们都是不完美的。
17:11
if we're around here, you know,
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不过既然我们都活得好好的，
17:13
these little losses or gains might not be too bad.
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就证明这些多多少少其实没什么大不了的。
17:16
But if these deletions or amplifications occurred in the wrong gene,
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但如果这一切是发生在错误的基因上，
17:21
maybe we'll feel sick.
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我们就有可能因此而生病。
17:22
So the first disease he looked at is autism.
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所以他首先研究的就是自闭症。
17:26
And the reason we looked at autism is we had the money to do it.
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原因在于我们有足够的资金来研究自闭症。
17:31
Looking at an individual is about 3,000 dollars. And the parent of a child
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看一位病人大概需要3千美元。
17:36
with Asperger's disease, the high-intelligence autism,
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有个艾斯伯格症候群（高智商自闭症）孩子的家长
17:38
had sent his thing to a conventional company; they didn't do it.
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把他孩子的基因送到一个传统的公司，但他们什么也做不了。
17:43
Couldn't do it by conventional genetics, but just scanning it
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传统的基因科技做不了什么。但我们通过简单的扫描，
17:46
we began to find genes for autism.
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就可以找到自闭症的基因。
17:49
And you can see here, there are a lot of them.
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不难看到，这些基因有很多个。
17:53
So a lot of autistic kids are autistic
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所以很多有自闭症的孩子之所以会有自闭症，
17:57
because they just lost a big piece of DNA.
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是因为他们遗失了一大块的DNA。
17:59
I mean, big piece at the molecular level.
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当然了，我是指分子层面上的一大块。
18:01
We saw one autistic kid,
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我们曾经看过一个自闭症患儿，
18:03
about five million bases just missing from one of his chromosomes.
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在他的一条染色体上就缺少了5百万个碱基。
18:06
We haven't yet looked at the parents, but the parents probably
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我们还没检查他的父母，不过他的父母很有可能
18:09
don't have that loss, or they wouldn't be parents.
309
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并不缺少这些碱基，不然的话他们也不可能成为父母。
18:12
Now, so, our autism study is just beginning. We got three million dollars.
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自闭症的研究才刚刚开始。我们有3百万美元研究经费，
18:19
I think it will cost at least 10 to 20 before you'd be in a position
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但我觉得我们至少需要1千到2千万美元，才能真正帮助那些
18:23
to help parents who've had an autistic child,
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有自闭症子女的父母，
18:26
or think they may have an autistic child,
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或者是那些认为自己有自闭症子女的父母。
18:28
and can we spot the difference?
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我们能把他们区别开来吗？
18:30
So this same technique should probably look at all.
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这项技术也许应该大范围地推广，
18:33
It's a wonderful way to find genes.
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因为它是寻找基因很有效的方法。
18:37
And so, I'll conclude by saying
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我最后想说的是，
18:39
we've looked at 20 people with schizophrenia.
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我们已经研究了20位精神分裂症患者，
18:41
And we thought we'd probably have to look at several hundred
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我们可能还需要再研究几百个
18:45
before we got the picture. But as you can see,
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才能有所收获。不过你在这里可以看到，
18:47
there's seven out of 20 had a change which was very high.
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这20名患者中有7名的基因都有变动。这可是相当高的比例。
18:51
And yet, in the controls there were three.
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不过我们的对照组中，也有三个人的基因有变动，
18:54
So what's the meaning of the controls?
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即如此，我们对照组的意义又何在呢？
18:56
Were they crazy also, and we didn't know it?
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难不成他们的精神也有问题，只不过我们不知道罢了？
18:58
Or, you know, were they normal? I would guess they're normal.
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还是说他们是正常人？我猜他们是正常的。
19:02
And what we think in schizophrenia is there are genes of predisposure,
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我们现在所知的是精神分裂患者是有易患基因的，
19:09
and whether this is one that predisposes --
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我们也能区分某个基因是否是罪魁祸首。
19:15
and then there's only a sub-segment of the population
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而只有一小部分的人群，
19:19
that's capable of being schizophrenic.
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是可以患上精神分裂的。
19:21
Now, we don't have really any evidence of it,
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我们现在还没有确凿的证据，
19:25
but I think, to give you a hypothesis, the best guess
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不过我的猜想是，
19:30
is that if you're left-handed, you're prone to schizophrenia.
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如果你是个左撇子，你就有可能会患上精神分裂症。
19:36
30 percent of schizophrenic people are left-handed,
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百分之三十的精神分裂症患者都是左撇子，
19:39
and schizophrenia has a very funny genetics,
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而精神分裂症的基因又是很滑稽的，
19:42
which means 60 percent of the people are genetically left-handed,
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这就意味着百分之六十的患者是有左撇子基因的，
19:46
but only half of it showed. I don't have the time to say.
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不过他们中只有一半成为了左撇子。我没有时间来具体地解释。
19:49
Now, some people who think they're right-handed
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总之，有些人觉得他们是右撇子，
19:52
are genetically left-handed. OK. I'm just saying that, if you think,
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但他们却有着左撇子基因。所以说，你要是觉得
19:58
oh, I don't carry a left-handed gene so therefore my, you know,
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你没有左撇子基因，因此你的孩子不会患上精神分裂症。
20:02
children won't be at risk of schizophrenia. You might. OK?
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我只想说：一切皆有可能。
20:05
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
20:08
So it's, to me, an extraordinarily exciting time.
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对我来说，现在真的是个非常激动人心的时代。
20:11
We ought to be able to find the gene for bipolar;
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我们应该可以找到躁郁症的基因。
20:13
there's a relationship.
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这其中是有关联的。
20:14
And if I had enough money, we'd find them all this year.
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如果我有足够的钱的话，我能在一年之内把它们都给找出来。
20:18
I thank you.
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谢谢大家。
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
James Watson - Biologist, Nobel laureateNobel laureate James Watson took part in one of the most important scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century: the discovery of the structure of DNA. More than 50 years later, he continues to investigate biology's deepest secrets.
Why you should listen
James Watson has led a long, remarkable life, starting at age 12, when he was one of radio's high-IQ Quiz Kids. By age 15, he had enrolled in the University of Chicago, and by 25, working with Francis Crick (and drawing, controversially, on the research of Maurice Wilkins and Rosalind Franklin), he had made the discovery that would eventually win the three men the Nobel Prize.
Watson and Crick's 1953 discovery of DNA's double-helix structure paved the way for the astounding breakthroughs in genetics and medicine that marked the second half of the 20th century. And Watson's classic 1968 memoir of the discovery, The Double Helix, changed the way the public perceives scientists, thanks to its candid account of the personality conflicts on the project.
From 1988 to 1994, he ran the Human Genome Project. His current passion is the quest to identify genetic bases for major illnesses; in 2007 he put his fully sequenced genome online, the second person to do so, in an effort to encourage personalized medicine and early detection and prevention of diseases.
James Watson | Speaker | TED.com