TEDxDePaulUniversity
Kelly Richmond Pope: How whistle-blowers shape history
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Fraud researcher and documentary filmmaker Kelly Richmond Pope shares lessons from some of the most high-profile whistle-blowers of the past, explaining how they've shared information that has shaped society -- and why they need our trust and protection.
Kelly Richmond Pope - Fraud researcher, documentary filmmaker
Kelly Richmond Pope researches organizational misconduct, ethics and fraud. Full bio
Kelly Richmond Pope researches organizational misconduct, ethics and fraud. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
How many of us have ever seen something,
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thought that we should report it,
but decided not to?
but decided not to?
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And not that I need
to see a show of hands,
to see a show of hands,
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but I'm sure this has happened
to someone in this room before.
to someone in this room before.
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In fact, when this question
was asked to a group of employees,
was asked to a group of employees,
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46 percent of them responded
by saying that they had seen something
by saying that they had seen something
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and decided not to report it.
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So if you raised your hand,
or quietly raised your hand,
or quietly raised your hand,
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don't feel bad, you're not alone.
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This message of if you see something
to say something
to say something
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is really all around us.
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Even when driving down the highway,
you see billboards like this,
you see billboards like this,
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encouraging us to report crime
without revealing ourselves.
without revealing ourselves.
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But I still feel like a lot of us
are really uncomfortable
are really uncomfortable
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coming forward in the name of the truth.
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I'm an accounting professor,
and I do fraud research.
and I do fraud research.
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01:00
And in my class, I encourage my students
to come forward with information
to come forward with information
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if they see it.
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Or in other words, encouraging
my students to become whistle-blowers.
my students to become whistle-blowers.
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01:09
But if I'm being completely
honest with myself,
honest with myself,
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I am really conflicted with this message
that I'm sending to my students.
that I'm sending to my students.
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And here's why.
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01:18
Whistle-blowers are under attack.
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Headline after headline shows us this.
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Many people choose
not to become whistle-blowers
not to become whistle-blowers
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due to the fear of retaliation.
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From demotions to death threats,
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to job loss --
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perpetual job loss.
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Choosing to become a whistle-blower
is an uphill battle.
is an uphill battle.
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Their loyalty becomes into question.
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01:44
Their motives, their trustworthiness.
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So how can I, as a professor
who really cares about her students
who really cares about her students
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encourage them to become whistle-blowers,
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when I know how the world
truly feels about them?
truly feels about them?
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So, one day I was getting ready
for my annual whistle-blower lecture
for my annual whistle-blower lecture
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with my students.
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02:01
And I was working
on an article for "Forbes,"
on an article for "Forbes,"
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entitled "Wells Fargo
and Millennial Whistle-blowing.
and Millennial Whistle-blowing.
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What Do We Tell Them?"
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And as I was working on this piece
and reading about the case,
and reading about the case,
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I became outraged.
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And what made me angry
was when I came to the fact and realized
was when I came to the fact and realized
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that the employees
that tried to whistle-blow
that tried to whistle-blow
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were actually fired.
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And it really made me think
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about the message
that I was sharing with my students.
that I was sharing with my students.
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And it made me think: What if my students
had been Wells Fargo employees?
had been Wells Fargo employees?
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On the one hand, if they whistle-blew,
they would have gotten fired.
they would have gotten fired.
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02:33
But on the other hand,
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if they didn't report
the frauds that they knew,
the frauds that they knew,
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the way current regulation is written,
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employees are held responsible
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if they knew something
and didn't report it.
and didn't report it.
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So criminal prosecution is a real option.
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What's a person supposed to do
with those type of odds?
with those type of odds?
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I of all people know
the valuable contributions
the valuable contributions
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that whistle-blowers make.
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In fact, most frauds
are discovered by them.
are discovered by them.
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Forty two percent of frauds
are discovered by a whistle-blower
are discovered by a whistle-blower
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in comparison to other methods,
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like measurement review
and external audit.
and external audit.
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And when you think
about some of the more classic
about some of the more classic
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or historical fraud cases,
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it always is around a whistle-blower.
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Think Watergate --
discovered by a whistle-blower.
discovered by a whistle-blower.
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Think Enron -- discovered
by a whistle-blower.
by a whistle-blower.
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And who can forget about Bernard Madoff,
discovered by a whistle-blower?
discovered by a whistle-blower?
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It takes a tremendous amount of courage
to come forward in the name of the truth.
to come forward in the name of the truth.
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But when we think
about the term whistle-blower,
about the term whistle-blower,
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we often think of some
very descriptive words:
very descriptive words:
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rat,
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snake,
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03:39
traitor,
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tattletale, weasel.
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And those are the nice words,
the ones I can say from the stage.
the ones I can say from the stage.
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03:46
And so when I'm not in class,
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I go around the country
and I interview white-collar felons,
and I interview white-collar felons,
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whistle-blowers and victims of fraud.
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Because really I'm trying to understand
what makes them tick
what makes them tick
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and to bring those experiences
back into the classroom.
back into the classroom.
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03:59
But it's my interviews with
whistle-blowers that really stick with me.
whistle-blowers that really stick with me.
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04:03
And they stick with me,
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because they make me question
my own courage.
my own courage.
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When given the opportunity,
would I actually speak up?
would I actually speak up?
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04:11
And so, this is a couple stories
that I want to share with you.
that I want to share with you.
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04:14
This is Mary.
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Mary Willingham is the whistle-blower
from the University of North Carolina
from the University of North Carolina
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at Chapel Hill, academic fraud case.
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04:22
And Mary was a learning specialist
at the university,
at the university,
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and she worked with students,
primarily student athletes.
primarily student athletes.
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And what she noticed,
when she was working with students,
when she was working with students,
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is they were turning in term papers
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that seemed well beyond
their reading levels.
their reading levels.
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She started to ask a couple of questions
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and she found out
that there was a database
that there was a database
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where the student athletes
could retrieve papers and turn them in.
could retrieve papers and turn them in.
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And then she found out
that some of her colleagues
that some of her colleagues
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were funneling students into fake classes,
just to keep them eligible to play.
just to keep them eligible to play.
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Now, when Mary found this out,
she was outraged.
she was outraged.
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And so what she tried to do
was go to her direct supervisor.
was go to her direct supervisor.
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But they didn't do anything.
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05:01
And then Mary tried to go to some
internal university administrators.
internal university administrators.
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And they didn't do anything.
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So, what happens when nobody listens?
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You blog.
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So Mary decided to develop a blog.
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Her blog went viral within 24 hours,
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and she was contacted by a reporter.
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Now, when she was contacted
by this reporter,
by this reporter,
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her identity was known.
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She was exposed.
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And when she was exposed,
she received a demotion,
she received a demotion,
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death threats, over collegiate sports.
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Mary didn't do anything wrong.
She didn't participate in the fraud.
She didn't participate in the fraud.
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She really thought
that she was giving voice
that she was giving voice
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to students that were voiceless.
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But her loyalty was questioned.
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Her trustworthiness and her motives.
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Now, whistle-blowing
doesn't always have to end
doesn't always have to end
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in demotions or death threats.
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Actually, in 2002, this was
the cover of "Time" magazine,
the cover of "Time" magazine,
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where we were actually honoring
three brave whistle-blowers
three brave whistle-blowers
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for their decision to come forward
in the name of the truth.
in the name of the truth.
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06:00
And when you look at the research,
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22 percent of whistle-blowers
actually report retaliation.
actually report retaliation.
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So there is a huge population of people
that report and are not retaliated against
that report and are not retaliated against
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and that gives me hope.
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So this is Kathe.
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Kathe Swanson is a retired city clerk
from the city of Dixon.
from the city of Dixon.
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And one day, Kathe was doing her job,
just like she always did,
just like she always did,
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and she stumbled upon
a pretty interesting case.
a pretty interesting case.
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See, Kathe was at the end of the month,
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and she was doing
her treasures report for the city,
her treasures report for the city,
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and typically, her boss, Rita Crundwell,
gave her a list of accounts and said,
gave her a list of accounts and said,
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"Kathe, call the bank
and get these specific accounts."
and get these specific accounts."
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And Kathe did her job.
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But this particular day,
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Rita was out of town, and Kathe was busy.
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She picks up the phone, she calls the bank
and says, "Fax me all of the accounts."
and says, "Fax me all of the accounts."
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And when she gets the fax,
she sees that there is an account
she sees that there is an account
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that has some withdrawals
and deposits in it
and deposits in it
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that she did not know about.
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It was an account controlled only by Rita.
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So Kathe looked at the information,
she reported it to her direct supervisor,
she reported it to her direct supervisor,
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which was then-mayor Burke,
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and this led into a huge investigation,
a six-month investigation.
a six-month investigation.
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Come to find out, Kathe's boss,
Rita Crundwell, was embezzling money.
Rita Crundwell, was embezzling money.
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Rita was embezzling 53 million dollars
over a 20-year period,
over a 20-year period,
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and Kathe just happened
to stumble upon it.
to stumble upon it.
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Kathe is a hero.
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07:28
And actually, I had the opportunity
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of interviewing Kathe for my documentary,
"All the Queen's Horses."
"All the Queen's Horses."
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And Kathe wasn't seeking fame.
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In fact, she really didn't want
to talk to me for a really long time,
to talk to me for a really long time,
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but through strategic stalking,
she ended up doing the interview.
she ended up doing the interview.
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(Laughter)
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But she was seeking fairness, not fame.
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And if it wasn't for Kathe,
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who's to say this fraud
would have ever been discovered?
would have ever been discovered?
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So, remember that "Forbes" article
I was talking about,
I was talking about,
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that I was working on before my lecture?
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Well, I posted it and something
really fantastic happened.
really fantastic happened.
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I started receiving emails
from whistle-blowers all over the world.
from whistle-blowers all over the world.
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And as I was receiving these emails
and responding back to them,
and responding back to them,
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there was a common theme
in the message that I received,
in the message that I received,
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and this is what it was:
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they all said this, "I blew the whistle,
people really hate me now.
people really hate me now.
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I got fired, but guess what?
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I would do it all over again if I could."
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And so as I kept reading this message,
all these messages,
all these messages,
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I wanted to think,
what could I share with my students?
what could I share with my students?
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And so, I pulled it all together
and this is what I learned.
and this is what I learned.
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It's important for us to cultivate hope.
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Whistle-blowers are hopeful.
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Despite popular belief,
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they're not all disgruntled employees
that have a beef with the company.
that have a beef with the company.
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Their hopefulness really is
what drives them to come forward.
what drives them to come forward.
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We also have to cultivate commitment.
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Whistle-blowers are committed.
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And it's that passion
to their organization
to their organization
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that makes them want to come forward.
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Whistle-blowers are humble.
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Again, they're not seeking fame,
but they are seeking fairness.
but they are seeking fairness.
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And we need to continue
to cultivate bravery.
to cultivate bravery.
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Whistle-blowers are brave.
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Often, they underestimated
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the impact whistle-blowing
had on their family,
had on their family,
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but what they continue to comment on
is how hard it is to withhold the truth.
is how hard it is to withhold the truth.
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With that, I want to leave you
with one additional name:
with one additional name:
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Peter Buxtun.
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Peter Buxtun was a 27-year-old
employee for the US Public Health Service.
employee for the US Public Health Service.
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And he was hired to interview people
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that had sexually transmitted diseases.
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And through the course of his work,
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he noticed a clinical study
that was going on within the organization.
that was going on within the organization.
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And it was a study that was looking
at the progression of untreated syphilis.
at the progression of untreated syphilis.
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And so, there were
600 African American males
600 African American males
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that were in this study.
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They were enticed into the study
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through being given
free medical exams, burial insurance.
free medical exams, burial insurance.
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And so, what happened
through the course of this study,
through the course of this study,
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is penicillin was discovered
to help treat syphilis.
to help treat syphilis.
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And what Peter noticed was,
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the participants in this study
were not given the penicillin
were not given the penicillin
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to treat their syphilis.
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And the participants didn't know.
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So similar to Mary, Peter tried to report
and talk to his internal supervisors,
and talk to his internal supervisors,
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but no one listened.
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And so Peter thought
this was completely unfair
this was completely unfair
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and he tried to report again,
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and finally talked to a reporter --
very similar to Mary.
very similar to Mary.
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And in 1972, this was the front page
of the "New York Times":
of the "New York Times":
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"Syphilis Victims in US Study
Went Untreated for 40 Years."
Went Untreated for 40 Years."
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This is known to us today
as the Tuskegee syphilis experiment.
as the Tuskegee syphilis experiment.
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And Peter was the whistle-blower.
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What happened to the 600 men,
you may wonder, the 600 original men?
you may wonder, the 600 original men?
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Twenty eight men died from syphilis.
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One hundred died
from syphilis complications,
from syphilis complications,
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forty wives were infected
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and 10 children were born
with congenital syphilis.
with congenital syphilis.
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Who's to say what these numbers would be
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if it wasn't for the brave,
courageous act of Peter?
courageous act of Peter?
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We're all connected to Peter, actually.
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If you know anybody
that's in a clinical trial,
that's in a clinical trial,
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the reason why we have
informed consent today
informed consent today
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is because of Peter's courageous act.
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So let me ask you a question.
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That original question,
a variation of the original question.
a variation of the original question.
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How many of us have ever used the term
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snitch, rat
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tattletale,
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snake,
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weasel,
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leak?
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Anybody?
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Before you get the urge to do that again,
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I want you to think a little bit.
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It might be the Mary,
the Peter, the Kathes of the world.
the Peter, the Kathes of the world.
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You might be the person
that could shape history,
that could shape history,
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or they could be the person
that shapes yours.
that shapes yours.
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Thank you.
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(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Kelly Richmond Pope - Fraud researcher, documentary filmmakerKelly Richmond Pope researches organizational misconduct, ethics and fraud.
Why you should listen
Kelly Richmond Pope is an Associate Professor in the School of Accountancy and MIS at DePaul University where her research focuses on how organizations design cultures and compliance systems to confront the challenges of organizational misconduct, ethics and fraud. She also teaches in executive education programs at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University and the Quilan School of Business at Loyola University.
Pope's research on organizational misconduct culminated into directing and producing the award-winning documentary, All the Queen's Horses in 2017. Renowned Chicago Sun-Times film critic Richard Roeper cites "kudos to director Kelly Richmond Pope for applying just the right mix of 'What the heck?' whimsy and respectful, serious reporting to this incredible tale." All the Queen's Horses explores the largest municipal fraud in United States history and premiered as the #1 documentary on iTunes, Amazon Prime Video, Google Play and Direct TV during its debut week on the video on demand platforms in April 2018.
At the organizational level, Pope examines factors that encourage employees to whistle-blow as well as the ethical decision-making process. This research has been published in leading accounting and business ethics journals and resulted in being selected to develop a TED-Ed lesson entitled "How people rationalize fraud."
Pope is a popular keynote speaker and frequently advises firms about their compliance programs and training. She is regularly invited to speak to regulators, including the Department of Justice, Securities and Exchange Commission, PCAOB, Internal Revenue Service-Criminal Investigations and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Prior to joining the faculty at DePaul University, Pope worked in the forensic accounting practice at KPMG. She received her doctorate in accounting from Virginia Tech and is a licensed certified public accountant.
Kelly Richmond Pope | Speaker | TED.com