TEDWomen 2017
Joan Blades and John Gable: Free yourself from your filter bubbles
瓊安布雷德＆約翰蓋博: 脫離自己的過濾泡泡
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瓊安布雷德與約翰蓋博希望你能和跟你投票給不同黨的人交朋友。這對長年的好友在政治上是對立的，他們知道和你無法立即認同的人進行誠懇對談的價值。聽聽他們說明，在政治光譜兩端的人是如何架起理解的橋樑，並創造機會互相傾聽以及尊重（可能還會形成長久的友誼）。
Joan Blades - Domestic peace advocate
Joan Blades shares a simple six-person conversation guide that helps people with differences get to know and even like each other. Full bioJohn Gable - Technologist, activist
John Gable is the founder and CEO of AllSides.com, which builds better understanding across divides. Full bio
Joan Blades shares a simple six-person conversation guide that helps people with differences get to know and even like each other. Full bioJohn Gable - Technologist, activist
John Gable is the founder and CEO of AllSides.com, which builds better understanding across divides. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Joan Blades: Do you have
politically diverse friends?
politically diverse friends?
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瓊安布雷德：你是否有
各種政治傾向的朋友？
各種政治傾向的朋友？
00:15
What do you talk about with them?
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你和他們都談什麼？
00:18
I'm a progressive; I live
in a town full of progressives,
in a town full of progressives,
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我是改革派；我住在都是
進步人士的小鎮中，
進步人士的小鎮中，
00:20
and 15 years ago, I didn't have
any conservative friends.
any conservative friends.
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十五年前，我沒有
任何保守派的朋友。
任何保守派的朋友。
00:24
Now I have a wonderful mix of friends,
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現在，我有各種政治傾向的好朋友，
00:27
and they include John.
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包括約翰在內。
00:29
John Gable: I am not a progressive.
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約翰蓋博：我不是改革派。
00:31
I'm a Republican who grew up
in a Republican family
in a Republican family
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我是共和黨，在共和黨家庭中長大，
00:34
in the conservative South,
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我家在保守的南方，
00:35
and even worked in Republican politics,
locally and at the national level.
locally and at the national level.
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我甚至在共和黨政治圈工作，
地方性和全國性的層級都有。
地方性和全國性的層級都有。
00:39
But the last 24 years,
I've been in technology
I've been in technology
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但，過去 24 年，我都在科技業，
00:42
and living in a very progressive area.
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且住在非常改革派的區域。
00:44
So I have a lot of progressive friends,
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我有很多改革派的朋友，
00:46
including Joan.
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包括瓊安。
00:48
JB: I was born in Berkeley, California,
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瓊安：我在加州柏克萊出生，
00:51
a notoriously progressive college town.
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一個以改革派聞名的大學鎮。
00:54
And I live there now.
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我現在也住在那裡。
00:56
In 1998, six months into the Monica
Lewinsky-Clinton impeachment scandal,
Lewinsky-Clinton impeachment scandal,
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1998 年，萊文斯基醜聞過後半年，
01:02
I helped cofound MoveOn.org
with a one-sentence petition:
with a one-sentence petition:
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我協助共同創立了 MoveOn.org
（走下去.org），請願只有一句話：
（走下去.org），請願只有一句話：
01:07
"Congress must immediately
censure the president
censure the president
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「國會必須要立即譴責總統，
01:10
and move on to pressing issues
facing the nation."
facing the nation."
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然後就繼續走下去，
去處理國家面臨的迫切議題。」
去處理國家面臨的迫切議題。」
01:13
Now, that was actually
a very unifying petition in many ways.
a very unifying petition in many ways.
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其實在許多層面上，
那是個很統一的請願。
那是個很統一的請願。
01:17
You could love Clinton or hate Clinton
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你也許愛柯林頓，也許恨柯林頓，
01:19
and agree that the best thing
for the country was to move on.
for the country was to move on.
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但都能同意對國家
最好的做法就是走下去。
最好的做法就是走下去。
01:23
As the leader of MoveOn,
I saw the polarization just continue.
I saw the polarization just continue.
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身為 MoveOn 的領導人，
我看到兩極化仍然持續著。
我看到兩極化仍然持續著。
01:28
And I found myself wondering
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我發現，我很納悶，
01:31
why I saw things so differently
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為什麼我和美國其他地區的許多人，
01:34
than many people
in other parts of the country.
in other parts of the country.
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在看事情的角度上有這麼大的不同？
01:36
So in 2005, when I had an opportunity
to get together with grassroots leaders
to get together with grassroots leaders
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所以，2005 年，我有機會
跟一些跨政治分裂的
跟一些跨政治分裂的
01:42
across the political divide,
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草根領導人聚會，
01:45
I grabbed it.
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我抓住了機會。
01:47
And I became friends with a lot of people
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我和許多人成為朋友，
01:49
I never had a chance to talk to before.
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我以前都沒機會和這些人說話。
01:53
And that included leadership
in the Christian Coalition,
in the Christian Coalition,
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包括了美國基督徒聯盟的領導階層，
01:56
often seen as on the right
the way MoveOn is seen as on the left.
the way MoveOn is seen as on the left.
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他們被視為右派，
而 MoveOn 被視為左派。
而 MoveOn 被視為左派。
02:00
And this lead to me
showing up on Capitol Hill
showing up on Capitol Hill
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這導致我出現在國會山莊，
02:04
with one of the Christian Coalition
leaders, my friend,
leaders, my friend,
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同行的是美國基督徒聯盟的
一位領導者，也是我的朋友，
一位領導者，也是我的朋友，
02:08
to lobby for net neutrality.
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去遊說網路中立性。
02:10
That was powerful.
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那很強大。
02:11
We turned heads.
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我們引起了注意。
02:13
So this work was transformational for me.
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這份工作轉化了我。
02:17
And I found myself wondering:
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我發現我在納悶：
02:20
How could vast numbers of people
have the opportunity
have the opportunity
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為什麼這麼多人有機會
02:24
to really connect with people
that have very different views?
that have very different views?
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可以真正和人連結，
卻有如此不同的觀點？
卻有如此不同的觀點？
02:28
JG: I was born Oneida, Tennessee,
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約翰：我生在田納西的奧奈達，
02:31
right across the state border
from a small coal mining town,
from a small coal mining town,
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橫越州邊界，來自一個煤礦小鎮，
肯塔基的斯特恩斯。
02:35
Stearns, Kentucky.
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02:37
And I lived there
for the first few years of my life,
for the first few years of my life,
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我人生中的前幾年住在那裡，
接著搬到另一個小鎮，
肯塔基的法蘭克福。
肯塔基的法蘭克福。
02:39
before moving to another small town,
Frankfort, Kentucky.
Frankfort, Kentucky.
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基本上，我在美國小鎮中長大，
02:42
Basically, I grew up
in small-town America,
in small-town America,
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從骨子裡就很保守。
02:44
conservative at its heart.
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02:46
Now, Stearns and Berkeley --
they're a little different.
they're a little different.
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斯特恩斯和柏克萊－它們有點不同。
02:50
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
02:53
So in the '90s I moved out west
to a progressive area
to a progressive area
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在九○年代，我搬出去，
到了西邊的改革派地區，
到了西邊的改革派地區，
02:57
to work in technology --
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去科技業工作－
02:58
worked at Microsoft, worked at Netscape.
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在微軟工作，在網景工作。
03:00
I actually became the product manager lead
for Netscape Navigator,
for Netscape Navigator,
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我真的當上了
「網景領航員」的產品經理，
「網景領航員」的產品經理，
那是第一個普及的網路瀏覽器。
03:04
the first popular web browser.
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03:06
Now in the early days of the internet,
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在網際網路的初期，
03:08
we were just moved
and inspired by a vision:
and inspired by a vision:
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我們是被一個遠景給感動和鼓舞的：
03:11
when we're connected to all
these different people around the world
these different people around the world
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當我們能夠與全世界各種不同的人、
03:14
and all these different ideas,
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不同的想法連結，
03:16
we'll be able to make great decisions,
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我們將能夠做出很好的決策，
03:17
and we'll be able to appreciate each other
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我們將能夠欣賞彼此，
03:20
for the beautiful diversity
that the whole world has to offer.
that the whole world has to offer.
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欣賞世界所帶給我們的美好多樣性。
03:23
Now I also, 20 years ago, gave a speech
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二十年前，我也做過一次演說，
03:24
saying it might not work out that way,
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說將來可能不會是那樣的，
03:27
that we might actually be trained
to discriminate against each other
to discriminate against each other
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我們可能其實會被訓練成用新的方式
03:31
in new ways.
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歧視彼此。
03:34
So what happened?
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所以，發生了什麼事？
03:36
It's not like we just woke up one day
and decided to hate each other more.
and decided to hate each other more.
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並不是我們有一天醒來
就決定要再多恨彼此一點。
就決定要再多恨彼此一點。
03:40
Here's what happened.
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發生的狀況是這樣的。
03:42
There's just too much noise --
too many people, too many ideas --
too many people, too many ideas --
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有太多噪音了－太多人、太多想法－
03:45
so we use technology
to filter it out a little bit.
to filter it out a little bit.
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所以我們用科技來一點一點過濾。
03:47
And what happens?
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接著發生什麼事？
03:49
It lets in ideas I already agree with.
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我放行的是我已經認同的想法。
03:52
It lets in the popular ideas,
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普及的想法會被放行，
03:54
it lets in people just like me
who think just like me.
who think just like me.
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和我一樣的人，想法
和我一樣的人會被放行。
和我一樣的人會被放行。
03:56
That sounds kind of good, right?
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聽起來很好，對嗎？
03:58
Well, not necessarily,
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不見得，
04:01
because two very scary things happen
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因為當我們的世界觀這麼狹窄時，
04:04
when we have such narrow worldviews.
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有兩件很可怕的事發生了。
04:06
First, we become more extreme
in our beliefs.
in our beliefs.
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第一，我們在信念上變得很極端。
04:11
Second, we become less tolerant
of anybody who's different than we are.
of anybody who's different than we are.
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第二，對於和我們不同的人，
我們的容忍度降低了。
我們的容忍度降低了。
04:18
Does this sound familiar?
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聽起來很耳熟嗎？
04:20
Does this sound like modern America?
The modern world?
The modern world?
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聽起來像是現代美國嗎？現代世界？
04:24
Well, the good news is
that technology is changing,
that technology is changing,
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好消息是，科技在改變，
它能變得更好。
04:26
and it could change for the better.
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事實上，那就是為什麼我創造了
AllSides.com（所有各方.com），
AllSides.com（所有各方.com），
04:28
And that's, in fact,
why I started AllSides.com --
why I started AllSides.com --
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04:31
to create technologies and services
to free us from these filter bubbles.
to free us from these filter bubbles.
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為了創造出能將我們從
過濾泡泡中解放的技術和服務。
過濾泡泡中解放的技術和服務。
04:35
The very first thing we did was create
technology that identifies bias,
technology that identifies bias,
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我們做的第一件事就是
創造出能辨別偏見的技術，
創造出能辨別偏見的技術，
04:38
so we could show different
perspectives side by side
perspectives side by side
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這樣我們才能把
不同的觀點一起呈現，
不同的觀點一起呈現，
04:42
to free us from the filter
bubbles of news media.
bubbles of news media.
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讓我們脫離新聞媒體的過濾泡泡。
04:46
And then I met Joan.
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接著，我遇到了瓊安。
04:49
JB: So I met John outside
of Washington, DC,
of Washington, DC,
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瓊安：我在華盛頓
特區外認識了約翰，
特區外認識了約翰，
04:52
with an idealistic group
of cross-partisan bridge builders,
of cross-partisan bridge builders,
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還有一個理想主義團體，
成員都是在建立跨越黨派橋樑的人，
成員都是在建立跨越黨派橋樑的人，
04:58
and we wanted to re-weave
the fabric of our communities.
the fabric of our communities.
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我們想要重建我們社群的結構。
05:02
We believe that our differences
can be a strength,
can be a strength,
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我們相信，我們的歧見
可以成為優勢，
可以成為優勢，
05:06
that our values can be complimentary
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我們的價值觀可以是互補的，
05:09
and that we have to overcome the fight
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且我們得要克服這鬥爭，
05:12
so that we can honor everyone's values
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讓我們能夠尊重每個人的價值觀，
05:14
and not lose any of our own.
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同時不失去自己的。
05:17
I went for this wonderful walk with John,
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我和約翰的對談非常美好，
05:19
where I started learning
about the work he was doing
about the work he was doing
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談話中，我開始了解他做的工作，
05:21
to pierce the filter bubble.
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刺穿過濾泡泡。
05:23
It was powerful;
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那很強大；
05:25
it was brilliant.
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那很出色。
05:27
Living in separate narratives is not good.
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住在不同的故事當中並非好事。
05:30
We can't even have a conversation
or do collaborative problem-solving
or do collaborative problem-solving
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當我們沒有共同的事實時，
我們甚至無法交談
我們甚至無法交談
05:34
when we don't share the same facts.
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或是共同解決問題。
約翰：所以，今天你們能學到的是，
05:38
JG: So one thing you take away from today
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05:40
is if Joan Blades asks you
to go on a walk,
to go on a walk,
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如果瓊安布雷德請你去散步，
05:43
go on that walk.
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那就去散步。
05:44
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
05:45
It changed things. It really changed
the way I was thinking about things.
the way I was thinking about things.
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它會造成改變。
它真的改變了我對事物的看法。
它真的改變了我對事物的看法。
05:49
To free ourselves from the filter bubbles,
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要讓我們脫離過濾泡泡，
05:51
we can't just think about
information filter bubbles,
information filter bubbles,
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我們不能只想著資訊過濾泡泡，
05:54
but also relationship
and social filter bubbles.
and social filter bubbles.
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還要去想關係以及社交過濾泡泡。
05:56
You see, we human beings -- we're not
nearly as smart as we think we are.
nearly as smart as we think we are.
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我們人類沒有自己想的那麼聰明。
06:00
We don't generally make
decisions intellectually.
decisions intellectually.
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我們通常不會做出明智的決策。
06:02
We make them emotionally, intuitively,
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我們的決策是情緒的、直覺的，
06:04
and then we use our big old brains
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然後再用又大又老的腦袋
來把我們想合理化的一切給合理化。
06:06
to rationalize anything
we want to rationalize.
we want to rationalize.
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06:08
We're not really like Vulcans
like Mr. Spock,
like Mr. Spock,
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我們並不像瓦肯人，不像史巴克，
06:12
we're more like bold cowboys
like Captain Kirk,
like Captain Kirk,
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我們較像魯莽的牛仔，像柯克艦長，
06:15
or passionate idealists like Dr. McCoy.
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或是熱情的理想主義者，
像老骨頭麥考伊。
像老骨頭麥考伊。
06:19
OK, for those of y'all who prefer
the new "Star Trek" crew,
the new "Star Trek" crew,
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如果你們比較喜歡新的
《星艦迷航記》成員，
《星艦迷航記》成員，
06:22
here you go.
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那就給你們吧。
06:23
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
06:24
JB: Don't forget the strong women!
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瓊安：別忘了堅強的女性們！
06:26
JG: Come on, strong women. OK.
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約翰：來吧，堅強的女性。
06:28
JB: All right.
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瓊安：好。
約翰和我都是《星艦迷航記》迷。
06:29
John and I are both "Star Trek" fans.
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06:31
What's not to love about a future
with that kind of optimism?
with that kind of optimism?
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有著那種樂觀主義的未來，
怎麼會不讓人喜歡？
怎麼會不讓人喜歡？
06:36
JG: And having a good future in mind
is a big deal -- very important.
is a big deal -- very important.
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約翰：心中有個美好的未來
是至關緊要的－非常重要。
是至關緊要的－非常重要。
06:40
And understanding what the problem is
is very important.
is very important.
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了解問題是什麼，是非常重要的。
06:42
But we have to do something.
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但我們得要採取行動。
06:44
So what do we do?
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我們要怎麼做？
06:45
It's actually not that hard.
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其實沒有那麼難。
06:46
We have to add diversity to our lives --
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我們得在我們的生活中加入多樣性－
不只是資訊，還有關係的多樣性。
06:48
not just information,
but relationship diversity.
but relationship diversity.
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06:52
And by diversity,
I mean big "D" diversity,
I mean big "D" diversity,
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我所指的多樣性是很廣泛的，
06:54
not just racial and gender,
which are very important,
which are very important,
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種族和性別是很重要，但不只這些，
06:57
but also ...
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還有…
06:59
diversity of age, like young and old;
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年齡的多樣性，比如年輕及年邁、
07:02
rural and urban;
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郊區及市區、
07:04
liberal and conservative;
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自由及保守，
07:07
in the US, Democrat and Republican.
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還有在美國的民主黨及共和黨。
07:10
Now, one of the great examples
of somebody freeing themselves
of somebody freeing themselves
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有一個很棒的例子
可以說明人要如何脫離
可以說明人要如何脫離
07:13
from their filter bubbles
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他們的過濾泡泡，
07:14
and getting a more diverse life
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提高人生中的多樣性，
07:16
is, once again, next to me -- Joan.
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這例子又是，我旁邊的瓊安。
07:19
JB: So the question is:
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瓊安：所以，問題是：
07:21
Who among you has had
relationships lost or harmed
relationships lost or harmed
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在座各位有誰遇過因為政治、宗教、
或其他歧見而造成關係斷絕或受損？
07:25
due to differences in politics,
religion or whatever?
religion or whatever?
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07:29
Raise your hands.
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請舉手。
07:31
Yeah.
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好。
07:33
This year I have talked to so many people
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今年，我和好多人談過，
07:35
that have experienced that kind of loss.
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他們都經歷過這種損失。
07:41
I've seen tears well up in people's eyes
as they talk about family members
as they talk about family members
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我見過人們在談他們疏遠的家人時
眼中泛著淚光。
07:45
from whom they're estranged.
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07:48
Living Room Conversations were designed
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「客廳對談」的設計目的
07:51
to begin to heal political
and personal differences.
and personal differences.
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是要治癒政治和個人的歧見。
07:57
They're simple conversations
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它們是很簡單的對談，
07:59
where two friends with different
viewpoints each invite two friends
viewpoints each invite two friends
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觀點不同的兩位朋友，
各自邀請兩位朋友，
各自邀請兩位朋友，
08:04
for structured conversation,
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來做結構性的對談，
08:05
where everyone's agreed
to some simple ground rules:
to some simple ground rules:
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對談的每個人都要同意
遵守簡單的基本規則：
遵守簡單的基本規則：
08:08
curiosity, listening,
respect, taking turns --
respect, taking turns --
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好奇心、傾聽、尊重、輪流－
08:12
everything we learned
in kindergarten, right?
in kindergarten, right?
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都是我們在幼稚園學到的，對吧？
08:14
Really easy.
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很簡單。
08:16
So by the time you're talking about
the topic you've agreed to talk about,
the topic you've agreed to talk about,
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所以，當你在談論
你同意要談的話題時，
你同意要談的話題時，
08:20
you actually have the sense that,
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你其實會感覺到：
「你知道嗎，我還算喜歡這個人。」
08:22
"You know, I kind of like this person,"
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08:24
and you listen to each other differently.
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且你會用不同的方式傾聽彼此。
08:26
That's kind of a human condition;
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那是一種人性，
我們會用不同方式傾聽我們在乎的人。
08:28
we listen differently
to people we care about.
to people we care about.
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08:31
And then there's reflection
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接著會有反思，
08:33
and possibly next steps.
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可能會有後續步驟。
08:36
This is a deep listening practice;
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這是深度傾聽的練習，
08:38
it's never a debate.
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從來就不是辯論。
08:41
And that's incredibly powerful.
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那是非常強大的。
08:43
These conversations
in our own living rooms
in our own living rooms
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在我們自家客廳和不同觀點的人
08:47
with people who have different viewpoints
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所做的這些交談，
08:50
are an incredible adventure.
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是場非常棒的冒險。
08:52
We rediscover that we can respect
and even love people
and even love people
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我們重新發現，我們能夠
尊重和我們不同的人，
尊重和我們不同的人，
08:55
that are different from us.
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甚至去愛他們。
08:58
And it's powerful.
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這很強大。
09:01
JG: So, what are you curious about?
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約翰：所以，你對什麼感到好奇？
09:04
JB: What's the conversation
you yearn to have?
you yearn to have?
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瓊安：你渴望交談的是什麼？
09:07
JG: Let's do this together.
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約翰：咱們一起來這樣做。
09:09
Together.
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同心協力。
09:10
JB: Yes.
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瓊安：是的。
09:11
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
09:12
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
09:15
JB and JG: Thank you.
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瓊安和約翰：謝謝。
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Joan Blades - Domestic peace advocateJoan Blades shares a simple six-person conversation guide that helps people with differences get to know and even like each other.
Why you should listen
Joan Blades is a co-founder of LivingRoomConversations.org, an open-source effort to rebuild respectful civil discourse across ideological, cultural and party lines while embracing our core-shared values. She is also a co-founder of MomsRising.org and MoveOn.org. She is a co-author of The Custom-Fit Workplace: Choose When, Where and How to Work and Boost Your Bottom Line, winner of a Nautilus book award in 2011, and The Motherhood Manifesto, which won the Ernesta Drinker Ballard Book Prize in 2007.
Last century, Blades was a software entrepreneur, a co-founder of Berkeley Systems, best known for the Flying Toaster and the game "You Don't Know Jack." A mediator (attorney) by training and inclination, she is a nature lover, artist and true believer in the power of citizens and our need to rebuild respectful civil discourse while embracing our core shared values.
Joan Blades | Speaker | TED.com
John Gable - Technologist, activist
John Gable is the founder and CEO of AllSides.com, which builds better understanding across divides.
Why you should listen
John Gable offers a unique combination of technology and politics. He started in tech 24 years ago by joining the original Microsoft Office team, then became the PM team lead for Netscape Navigator. He also led ZoneAlarm at Check Point Software, and cofounded and sold Kavi Corp. Gable was previously a Republican operative, working for three Senate majority leaders (Howard Baker, Trent Lott, Mitch McConnell), the Republican National Committee and George H.W. Bush.
Now Gable and his multi-partisan AllSides.com team use technology to present news and issues from many angles to allow people to make up their own minds. Their mission: "free people from filter bubbles so they can better understand the world and each other."
John Gable | Speaker | TED.com