ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Andrew Marantz - Writer
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world.

Why you should listen

Since 2016, Andrew Marantz has been at work on a book about the perils of virality, the myth of linear progress and the American far right. To report the book, he spent several years embedded with some of the conspiracists, white supremacists and nihilist trolls who have become experts at using social media to advance their corrosive agendas. He also watched as some of social media's earliest and most influential founders started to reckon with the forces they'd unleashed. The book, forthcoming in October from Viking Press, is called Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hijacking of the American Conversation

Marantz became a staff writer at the New Yorker in 2017. Prior to that, he worked on the magazine's editorial staff, splitting his time between writing stories (about such topics as hip-hop purism and the Truman Show delusion) and editing stories (about Las Vegas night clubs, Liberian warlords and many other things). Ultimately, Marantz's main interest lies not in any particular subject matter, but in how people form beliefs -- and under what circumstances those beliefs can change for the better.

Marantz is also a contributor to Radiolab and The New Yorker Radio Hour, and has written for Harper's, Mother Jones, the New York Times and many other outlets. He holds an undergraduate degree in religion from Brown University and a master's degree in literary nonfiction from New York University. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, who is a criminal-justice reformer; his two-year-old son, who is an excellent dancer; and an endless supply of peanut butter.

More profile about the speaker
Andrew Marantz | Speaker | TED.com
TED2019

Andrew Marantz: Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists

Andrew Marantz: U bizarnom svijetu internet trolova i propagandista

Filmed:
1,676,355 views

Novinar Andrew Marantz proveo je tri godine u svijetu internet trolova i propagandista na društvenim mrežama, tražeći ljude koji lansiraju rubne teme u središte internetskih debata i promatrao kako oni to čine. Uskočite u zečju rupu propagande i dezinformacija na internetu - i naučite što možemo učiniti da internet bude manje toksičan.
- Writer
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
I spentpotrošen the pastprošlost threetri yearsgodina
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Proveo sam protekle tri godine
00:14
talkingkoji govori to some of the worstnajgori
people on the internetInternet.
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pričajući s nekim od najgorih
ljudi na internetu.
00:18
Now, if you've been onlinena liniji recentlynedavno,
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Ukoliko ste nedavno bili na internetu,
00:20
you maysvibanj have noticedprimijetio that there's
a lot of toxicotrovan garbagesmeće out there:
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možda ste primijetili
mnogo toksičnog smeća:
00:24
racistrasistički memesmemi, misogynistženomrzac propagandapropagande,
viralvirusni misinformationdezinformacija.
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rasističkih memeova, ženomrzačke
propagande, viralnih dezinformacija.
00:29
So I wanted to know
who was makingizrađivanje this stuffstvari.
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Htio sam saznati tko stoji iza toga.
Htio sam razumjeti kako su to proširili.
00:31
I wanted to understandrazumjeti
how they were spreadingširenje it.
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Na kraju krajeva, želio sam saznati
00:34
UltimatelyNa kraju, I wanted to know
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kakav bi mogao biti utjecaj
tog sadržaja na naše društvo.
00:35
what kindljubazan of impactudar
it mightmoć be havingima on our societydruštvo.
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00:38
So in 2016, I startedpočeo tracingprecrtavanje
some of these memesmemi back to theirnjihov sourceizvor,
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Tako sam 2016. počeo pratiti
neke od memeova do njihovog izvora,
00:42
back to the people who were makingizrađivanje them
or who were makingizrađivanje them go viralvirusni.
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natrag do ljudi koji su ih stvarali
ili koji su ih lansirali na internet.
Prilazio sam tim ljudima i rekao,
00:45
I'd approachpristup those people and say,
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"Hej, ja sam novinar. Mogu li
vas promatrati dok radite?"
00:47
"Hey, I'm a journalistnovinar.
Can I come watch you do what you do?"
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Često bi odgovor bio nešto poput,
00:50
Now, oftenčesto the responseodgovor would be,
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"Zašto bi, dovraga, želio pričati
00:51
"Why in hellpakao would I want to talk to
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s nekim soja dečkom, globalistom iz
Brooklyna koji je židovski sluga
00:53
some low-tLow-t soy-boysoja-dečko
BrooklynBrooklyn globalistglobalista JewŽidov cuckCuck
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00:55
who'stko je in cahootsdosluhu with the DemocratDemokrat PartyStranka?"
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i podržava Demokratsku stranku?"
00:57
(LaughterSmijeh)
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(Smijeh)
00:59
To whichkoji my responseodgovor would be,
"Look, man, that's only 57 percentposto truepravi."
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Na što bi moj odgovor bio,
"Čuj stari, samo si 57% u pravu."
01:03
(LaughterSmijeh)
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(Smijeh)
01:04
But oftenčesto I got the oppositesuprotan responseodgovor.
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No, često bih dobio suprotan odgovor.
"Da, svakako, samo navrati."
01:06
"Yeah, sure, come on by."
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01:08
So that's how I endedzavršeno up
in the livingživot roomsoba
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Tako sam završio u dnevnoj sobi
01:10
of a socialsocijalni mediamedia propagandistpropagator
in SouthernJužni CaliforniaCalifornia.
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propagandista s društvenih
mreža u Južnoj Kaliforniji.
01:14
He was a marriedoženjen whitebijela guy
in his latekasno 30s.
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Bio je to oženjen frajer u kasnim 30-ima.
01:16
He had a tablestol in frontispred of him
with a mugkrigla of coffeekava,
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Pred sobom je imao stol sa šalicom kave,
01:19
a laptoplaptop for tweetingtweeting,
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laptop za postanje na Tweeteru,
01:21
a phonetelefon for textingtkanina
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mobitel za poruke,
01:23
and an iPadiPad for livestreaminglivestreaming
to PeriscopePeriskop and YouTubeMladost.
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iPad za emitiranje
na Periscopeu i YouTubeu.
01:27
That was it.
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I to je bilo to.
01:28
And yetjoš, with those toolsalat,
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Ipak, sa svim tim alatima
01:30
he was ableu stanju to propelpogon his fringeresa,
noxiousštetnih talkingkoji govori pointsbodova
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mogao je lansirati svoja otrovna,
ekstremna stajališta
01:34
into the heartsrce of
the AmericanAmerički conversationrazgovor.
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ravno u srce američkog razgovora.
01:37
For exampleprimjer, one of the daysdana I was there,
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Primjerice, jednog dana dok sam bio tamo,
01:39
a bombbomba had just explodedeksplodirao in NewNovi YorkYork,
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bomba je eksplodirala u New Yorku,
01:42
and the guy accusedoptuženik of plantingSadnja the bombbomba
had a Muslim-soundingMuslimanska zvučna nameime.
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za što je optužen čovjek imena
koje je zvučalo muslimanski.
01:45
Now, to the propagandistpropagator in CaliforniaCalifornia,
this seemedčinilo se like an opportunityprilika,
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Za ovog propagandista u Kaliforniji
to je bila odlična prilika,
01:50
because one of the things he wanted
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jer se, između ostalog, zalagao
01:51
was for the US to cutrez off
almostskoro all immigrationimigracije,
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za to da SAD ukinu gotovo svo useljavanje,
01:54
especiallyposebno from Muslim-majorityMuslimanska većina countrieszemlje.
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osobito iz muslimanskih zemalja.
01:57
So he startedpočeo livestreaminglivestreaming,
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Radi toga je počeo emitirati livestream,
01:59
gettinguzimajući his followerssljedbenici
workedradio up into a frenzybjesnilo
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dok su njegovi pratitelji
postajali sve bjesniji
02:01
about how the openotvoren bordersgranice agendadnevni red
was going to killubiti us all
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zbog toga što će nas politika
otvorenih granica sve poubijati,
02:04
and askingtraži them to tweetcvrkut about this,
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i tražio je od njih da tvitaju o tome,
02:06
and use specificspecifično hashtagshashtags,
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koriste određene hashtagove,
02:07
tryingtežak to get those hashtagshashtags trendingkosi smjer.
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i pokušao postići da ti hashtagovi
dođu na Twitter trending listu.
02:09
And tweetcvrkut they did --
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Oni su zaista i tvitali,
02:10
hundredsstotine and hundredsstotine of tweetsTweets,
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stotine i stotine postova.
02:12
a lot of them featuringkoji sadrži
imagesslika like this one.
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Mnogi od njih objavili su i slike poput ove.
02:15
So that's GeorgeGeorge SorosSoros.
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Ovo je George Soros.
02:17
He's a Hungarianmađarski billionairemilijarder
and philanthropistfilantrop,
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On je mađarski milijarder i filantrop,
02:19
and in the mindsmisli
of some conspiracistsconspiracists onlinena liniji,
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i prema ljubiteljima teorija
zavjera na internetu,
02:22
GeorgeGeorge SorosSoros is like
a globalistglobalista bogeymanBabaroga,
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George Soros je neka vrsta
globalista babaroge,
02:24
one of a fewnekoliko eliteselite who is secretlypotajno
manipulatingza rukovanje all of globalglobalno affairsposlovi.
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jedan od malobrojne elite koja
upravlja svjetskim događajima.
02:29
Now, just to pausepauza here:
if this ideaideja soundszvukovi familiarupoznat to you,
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Sad, samo da napravim pauzu,
ukoliko vam se ova ideja čini poznatom,
02:32
that there are a fewnekoliko eliteselite
who controlkontrolirati the worldsvijet
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da postoji malobrojna elita
koja kontrolira svijet
02:35
and a lot of them happendogoditi se to be richbogat JewsŽidovi,
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i koja se sastoji uglavnom
od bogatih Židova,
02:37
that's because it is one of the mostnajviše
anti-SemiticAntisemitski tropestropes in existencepostojanje.
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to je zato jer je to jedan od
najčešćih antisemitskih motiva.
02:42
I should alsotakođer mentionspomenuti that the guy
in NewNovi YorkYork who plantedzasađen that bombbomba,
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Još bih samo napomenuo
da je čovjek koji je postavio
02:45
he was an AmericanAmerički citizengrađanin.
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tu bombu u New Yorku
bio američki državljanin.
02:47
So whateveršto god elsedrugo was going on there,
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Dakle, o čemu god da
se radilo u tom slučaju,
02:50
immigrationimigracije was not the mainglavni issueizdanje.
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imigracija nije bila glavni problem.
02:53
And the propagandistpropagator in CaliforniaCalifornia,
he understoodrazumjeti all this.
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Propagandist u Kaliforniji je
sve to vrlo dobro razumio.
02:56
He was a well-readDobro čitanje guy.
He was actuallyzapravo a lawyerodvjetnik.
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Bio je to načitan čovjek.
Zapravo je bio odvjetnik.
02:58
He knewznao the underlyingtemeljne factsčinjenicama,
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Znao je sve činjenice,
03:00
but he alsotakođer knewznao that factsčinjenicama
do not drivepogon conversationrazgovor onlinena liniji.
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ali je također znao da činjenice
nisu bitne za dijalog na internetu.
03:03
What drivesdiskovi conversationrazgovor onlinena liniji
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Ono što je bitno na internetu
03:05
is emotionemocija.
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su emocije.
03:07
See, the originalizvornik premisepretpostavka of socialsocijalni mediamedia
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Originalna ideja društvenih mreža
03:09
was that it was going
to bringdonijeti us all togetherzajedno,
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bila je da nas sve poveže
03:11
make the worldsvijet more openotvoren
and toleranttolerantni and fairfer ...
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i stvori otvoreniji, tolerantniji
i pravedniji svijet.
03:14
And it did some of that.
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To se donekle ostvarilo.
03:16
But the socialsocijalni mediamedia algorithmsalgoritmi
have never been builtizgrađen
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Ali, algoritmi društvenih mreža
nisu nikad bili stvoreni
03:19
to distinguishrazlikovati betweenizmeđu
what's truepravi or falselažan,
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da razlikuju što je točno, a što ne,
03:21
what's good or badloše for societydruštvo,
what's prosocialprosocijalnog and what's antisocialantisocijalno.
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što je dobro ili loše za društvo,
što prosocijalno, a što antisocijalno.
03:25
That's just not what those algorithmsalgoritmi do.
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Algoritmi to ne rade.
03:28
A lot of what they do
is measuremjera engagementangažman:
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Ono što oni rade jest da
mjere aktivnost korisnika:
03:30
clicksklikova, commentskomentari, sharesdionice,
retweetsRetweets, that kindljubazan of thing.
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klikove, komentare, podjele
sadržaja, takve stvari.
03:33
And if you want your contentsadržaj
to get engagementangažman,
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Ukoliko želite da vaš sadržaj
dobije takvu aktivnost,
03:36
it has to sparkiskra emotionemocija,
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morate izazvati emocije.
03:38
specificallyposebno, what behavioralponašanja scientistsznanstvenici
call "high-arousalvisoko-uzbuđenja emotionemocija."
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Točnije, ono što znanstvenici
nazivaju "emocije visoke uzbuđenosti".
03:42
Now, "highvisok arousaluzbuđenja" doesn't only
mean sexualseksualan arousaluzbuđenja,
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Visoka uzbuđenost ne znači samo
seksualno uzbuđenje,
03:44
althoughiako it's the internetInternet,
obviouslyočito that worksdjela.
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iako je očito internet
ono što je izaziva.
03:47
It meanssredstva anything, positivepozitivan or negativenegativan,
that getsdobiva people'snarodno heartssrca pumpingcrpna.
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To znači bilo što, pozitivno ili negativno
što ubrzava rad vašeg srca.
03:51
So I would sitsjediti with these propagandistspropagandiste,
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Tako bih ja sjedio s tim propagandistima,
03:53
not just the guy in CaliforniaCalifornia,
but dozensdesetine of them,
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ne samo s onim u Kaliforniji,
nego i drugima,
03:56
and I would watch as they did this
again and again successfullyuspješno,
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i gledao bih kako to rade,
svaki put uspješno,
03:59
not because they were Russianruski hackersHakeri,
not because they were techtech prodigiesprofesorska,
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ne zato jer su ruski hakeri,
ne zato jer su tehnološki geniji,
04:03
not because they had
uniquejedinstvena politicalpolitički insightsuvidi --
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ne zato jer imaju jedinstvene
političke poglede -
04:05
just because they understoodrazumjeti
how socialsocijalni mediamedia workedradio,
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samo zato jer su razumjeli
kako rade društvene mreže
04:08
and they were willingspreman
to exploitiskorištavati it to theirnjihov advantageprednost.
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i bili su spremni iskoristiti
ih za svoje ciljeve.
04:10
Now, at first I was ableu stanju to tell myselfsebe
this was a fringeresa phenomenonfenomen,
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Ispočetka sam govorio sam sebi
da je ovo rubni fenomen,
04:14
something that was
relegateddegradirani to the internetInternet.
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nešto što se samo preselilo na internet.
04:16
But there's really no separationodvajanje anymoreviše
betweenizmeđu the internetInternet and everything elsedrugo.
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No, više ne postoji razlika između
interneta i svega ostalog.
04:20
This is an adoglas that ranran
on multiplevišekratnik TVTV stationsstanice
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Ovo je oglas prikazan na više TV postaja
04:22
duringza vrijeme the 2018 congressionalkongresa electionsizbori,
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tijekom izbora za kongres 2018. godine,
04:25
allegingnavodeći with very little evidencedokaz
that one of the candidateskandidata
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u kojem se bez dokaza optužuje
jednog od kandidata
04:28
was in the pocketdžep of
internationalmeđunarodna manipulatormanipulator GeorgeGeorge SorosSoros,
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da je marioneta kojom upravlja
manipulator George Soros,
04:31
who is awkwardlynespretno photoshoppedPhotoshopped here
nextSljedeći to stackshrpe of cashunovčiti.
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kojeg su na ovoj slici nevješto
zalijepili pored brda love.
04:35
This is a tweetcvrkut from
the PresidentPredsjednik of the UnitedUjedinjeni StatesDržava,
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Ovo je post na Twitteru predsjednika SAD-a,
04:37
allegingnavodeći, again with no evidencedokaz,
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u kojem on, bez dokaza, tvrdi
04:39
that AmericanAmerički politicspolitika is beingbiće
manipulatedmanipulirati by GeorgeGeorge SorosSoros.
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da američkom politikom
manipulira upravo Soros.
04:43
This stuffstvari that oncejednom seemedčinilo se so shockingšokantan
and marginalmarginalan and, franklyiskreno, just ignorableneprimjetna,
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Ono što se nekad činilo šokantnim,
marginalnim, ili iskreno, za ignoriranje,
04:47
it's now so normalizednormalizirani
that we hardlyjedva even noticeobavijest it.
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danas je toliko normalizirano
da to uopće ne primjećujemo.
04:50
So I spentpotrošen about
threetri yearsgodina in this worldsvijet.
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Proveo sam oko tri godine u ovom svijetu.
04:52
I talkedRazgovarao to a lot of people.
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Razgovarao sam s puno ljudi.
04:53
Some of them seemedčinilo se to have
no coresrž beliefsvjerovanja at all.
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Neki od njih nisu imali
nekakva temeljna uvjerenja.
04:56
They just seemedčinilo se to be bettingKlađenje,
perfectlysavršeno rationallyracionalno,
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Neki od njih posve su
racionalno zaključili
04:58
that if they wanted
to make some moneynovac onlinena liniji
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da ukoliko žele zaraditi na internetu
05:01
or get some attentionpažnja onlinena liniji,
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ili dobiti nešto pozornosti,
moraju biti što luđi.
05:02
they should just be
as outrageouspretjeran as possiblemoguće.
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05:04
But I talkedRazgovarao to other people
who were truepravi ideologuesideologa.
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No, razgovarao sam i s drugima,
koji su pravi ideolozi.
05:08
And to be clearčisto, theirnjihov ideologyideologija
was not traditionaltradicionalan conservatismkonzervativizam.
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Da budem jasan, njihova ideologija
nije tradicionalni konzervativizam.
05:12
These were people who wanted
to revokeOpozvati femaležena suffragepravo glasa.
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To su ljudi koji bi željeli
ukinuti ženama pravo glasa.
05:15
These were people who wanted
to go back to racialrasni segregationsegregacija.
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To su ljudi koji bi se vratili
u vremena rasnih podjela.
05:18
Some of them wanted to do away
with democracydemokratija altogethersve u svemu.
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Neki od njih u cijelosti bi
ukinuli demokraciju.
05:21
Now, obviouslyočito these people
were not bornrođen believingvjerujući these things.
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Ovi ljudi nisu rođeni
vjerujući u takve stvari.
05:24
They didn't pickodabrati them up
in elementaryosnovni schoolškola.
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Nisu ih naučili u osnovnoj školi.
05:26
A lot of them, before they wentotišao
down some internetInternet rabbitzec holerupa,
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Mnogi od njih, prije negoli
su kliznuli u zečju rupu interneta,
05:29
they had been libertarianslobodarski
or they had been socialistSocijalističke
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bili su libertarijanci
ili čak socijalisti,
05:32
or they had been something elsedrugo entirelypotpuno.
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ili nešto posve drugačije.
05:34
So what was going on?
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O čemu je bila riječ?
05:36
Well, I can't generalizegeneralizirati about everysvaki casespis,
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Ne mogu govoriti za svaki slučaj,
05:39
but a lot of the people I spokegovorio to,
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ali mnogi ljudi s kojima sam pričao
05:40
they seemčiniti se to have a combinationkombinacija
of a highvisok IQIQ and a lownizak EQEq.
124
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imali su kombinaciju
visokog IQ-a i niskog EQ-a.
05:44
They seemčiniti se to take comfortudobnost
in anonymousanoniman, onlinena liniji spacesprostori
125
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Čini se da se dobro snalaze u
anonimnim prostranstvima interneta,
05:48
ratherradije than connectingspojni in the realstvaran worldsvijet.
126
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1987
umjesto stvaranja odnosa u stvarnosti.
05:50
So oftenčesto they would retreatpovlačenje
to these messageporuka boardsploče
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Povlačili bi se na internet forume
05:53
or these subredditssubredditi,
128
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ili "subreddite",
05:54
where theirnjihov worstnajgori impulsesimpulse
would be magnifiedveliča.
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gdje su se njihovi najgori
impulsi još povećavali.
05:56
They mightmoć startpočetak out sayingizreka
something just as a sickbolestan jokevic,
130
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Možda bi započinjali razgovore
neukusnim šalama,
06:00
and then they would get so much
positivepozitivan reinforcementpojačanje for that jokevic,
131
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a onda bi ih netko
ohrabrio zbog tih šala,
06:03
so manymnogi meaninglessbez značenja
"internetInternet pointsbodova," as they calledzvao it,
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beznačajnih "internet točki",
kako ih nazivaju,
06:06
that they mightmoć startpočetak
believingvjerujući theirnjihov ownvlastiti jokevic.
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da bi na kraju počeli
vjerovati u te svoje šale.
06:10
I talkedRazgovarao a lot with one youngmladi womanžena
who grewrastao up in NewNovi JerseyJersey,
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Pričao sam s jednom mladom
ženom koja je odrasla u New Jerseyu,
06:13
and then after highvisok schoolškola,
she movedpomaknuto to a newnovi placemjesto
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nakon srednje škole
odselila se u drugi grad
06:16
and suddenlyiznenada she just feltosjećala
alienatedotuđen and cutrez off
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2254
i odjednom se osjećala
usamljeno i izolirano,
06:18
and startedpočeo retreatingpovlače into her phonetelefon.
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i utjehu pronašla u mobitelu.
06:20
She foundpronađeno some of these
spacesprostori on the internetInternet
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Pronašla je neke od ovih
prostora na internetu
06:23
where people would postpošta
the mostnajviše shockingšokantan, heinousodvratan things.
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gdje ljudi postaju
šokantne, odvratne stvari.
06:25
And she foundpronađeno this stuffstvari
really off-puttingodbojan
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Sve joj je to bilo odbojno,
06:28
but alsotakođer kindljubazan of engrossingZanosan,
141
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1775
ali u isto vrijeme ju je fasciniralo,
06:30
kindljubazan of like she couldn'tne mogu
look away from it.
142
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2084
toliko da nije mogla prestati čitati.
06:33
She startedpočeo interactingu interakciji with people
in these onlinena liniji spacesprostori,
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Počela je komunicirati s ljudima
na tim internet stranicama,
06:36
and they madenapravljen her feel smartpametan,
they madenapravljen her feel validatedozakoniti.
144
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zbog kojih se počela osjećati
pametno i vrijedno.
Počela je osjećati duh zajedništva
06:38
She startedpočeo feelingosjećaj a senseosjećaj of communityzajednica,
145
386983
1977
i pitati se sadrže li neki
od tih šokantnih postova
06:40
startedpočeo wonderingpitate if maybe
some of these shockingšokantan memesmemi
146
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2658
ipak i mrvicu istine.
06:43
mightmoć actuallyzapravo containsadržati a kernelkoštica of truthistina.
147
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06:46
A fewnekoliko monthsmjeseci laterkasnije, she was in a carautomobil
with some of her newnovi internetInternet friendsprijatelji
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Nekoliko mjeseci kasnije, s
novim prijateljima s interneta
06:49
headeds glavom to CharlottesvilleCharlottesville, VirginiaVirginia,
149
397690
1826
vozila se u Charlottesville u Virginiji,
kako bi stupala u paradi s
bakljama, u ime bijele rase.
06:51
to marchožujak with torchesbaklje
in the nameime of the whitebijela raceutrka.
150
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06:55
She'dOna bi goneotišao, in a fewnekoliko monthsmjeseci,
from ObamaObama supporterpristaša
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U nekoliko mjeseci pretvorila
se iz Obaminog birača
06:57
to fullypotpuno radicalizedRadikal whitebijela supremacistsupremacist.
152
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u potpuno radikaliziranog
bijelog supremacista.
07:01
Now, in her particularposebno casespis,
153
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U njenom slučaju,
07:03
she actuallyzapravo was ableu stanju to find her way
out of the cultkult of whitebijela supremacynadmoć.
154
411335
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ona se uspjela osloboditi
iz kulta bjelačkog supremacizma.
07:08
But a lot of the people
I spokegovorio to were not.
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2060
Ali mnogi s kojima sam razgovarao nisu.
07:10
And just to be clearčisto:
156
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Samo da pojasnim:
07:12
I was never so convinceduvjeren
that I had to find commonzajednička groundtlo
157
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nikad nisam bio uvjeren
da moram pronaći nešto zajedničko
07:15
with everysvaki singlesingl personosoba I spokegovorio to
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sa svakom osobom
s kojom sam komunicirao,
07:17
that I was willingspreman to say,
159
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1254
tako da bih mogao reći,
07:18
"You know what, man,
you're a fascistfašista propagandistpropagator, I'm not,
160
426603
3141
"Znaš stari, ti si fašist, ja nisam,
07:21
whateveršto god, let's just hugzagrljaj it out,
all our differencesRazlike will meltrastopiti away."
161
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dođi da se zagrlimo i sve
naše razlike će nestati."
07:25
No, absolutelyapsolutno not.
162
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1714
Ne, apsolutno ne.
07:28
But I did becomepostati convinceduvjeren that we cannotNe možete
just look away from this stuffstvari.
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Ali uvjerio sam se da ne
možemo ignorirati ovakve stvari.
07:31
We have to try to understandrazumjeti it,
because only by understandingrazumijevanje it
164
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Moramo ih pokušati razumjeti,
zato jer jedino kroz razumijevanje
07:34
can we even startpočetak to inoculatecijepiti
ourselvessebe againstprotiv it.
165
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možemo uopće početi
štititi se od takvih stvari.
07:39
In my threetri yearsgodina in this worldsvijet,
I got a fewnekoliko nastygadan phonetelefon callspozivi,
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U ove tri godine, primio sam
nekoliko gadnih poziva,
07:42
even some threatsprijetnje,
167
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čak i nekoliko prijetnji,
07:44
but it wasn'tnije a fractionfrakcija of what
femaležena journalistsnovinari get on this beatpobijediti.
168
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ali to nije ni dio onog što
proživljavaju novinarke.
07:48
And yeah, I am JewishŽidovski,
169
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I da, ja sam Židov,
07:50
althoughiako, weirdlykoban, a lot of the NazisNacisti
couldn'tne mogu tell I was JewishŽidovski,
170
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3649
iako, začudo, mnogi nacisti
nisu prepoznali da sam Židov,
07:53
whichkoji I franklyiskreno just foundpronađeno
kindljubazan of disappointingrazočaravajući.
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što me, iskreno, pomalo razočaralo.
07:56
(LaughterSmijeh)
172
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1800
(Smijeh)
07:58
SeriouslyOzbiljno, like, your wholečitav jobposao
is beingbiće a professionalprofesionalac anti-Semiteanti-Semiti.
173
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Ozbiljno, a oni su
profesionalni antisemiti.
08:03
Nothing about me
is tippingtipping you off at all?
174
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2422
Zar me ništa na meni nije odalo?
08:05
Nothing?
175
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Baš ništa?
08:06
(LaughterSmijeh)
176
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(Smijeh)
08:09
This is not a secrettajna.
177
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Ovo nije tajna.
08:11
My nameime is AndrewAndrew MarantzMarantz,
I writepisati for "The NewNovi YorkerYorkeru,"
178
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2683
Zovem se Andrew Marantz,
pišem za "The New Yorker",
08:13
my personalityosoba typetip
is like if a SeinfeldSeinfeld episodeEpizoda
179
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2521
imam osobnost kao lik iz epizode Seinfelda
08:16
was tapedsnimio at the ParkPark SlopeNagib FoodHrana CoopCoop.
180
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snimljene u Park Slope trgovini.
08:18
Nothing?
181
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Ništa?
08:19
(LaughterSmijeh)
182
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2513
(Smijeh)
08:24
AnywayU svakom slučaju, look -- ultimatelyna kraju,
it would be nicelijepo
183
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2231
Na kraju krajeva, bilo bi lijepo
08:27
if there were, like, a simplejednostavan formulaformula:
184
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2348
da postoji jednostavna formula:
08:29
smartphonesmartphone plusplus alienatedotuđen kiddijete
equalsjednak 12 percentposto chanceprilika of NaziNacističke.
185
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mobitel plus usamljeni klinac
jednako je 12% šanse da postane nacist.
08:33
It's obviouslyočito not that simplejednostavan.
186
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Jasno, to nije tako jednostavno.
08:36
And in my writingpisanje,
187
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U mojim tekstovima
08:37
I'm much more comfortableudobno
beingbiće descriptiveopisni, not prescriptivePropisan.
188
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lakše mi je opisivati, nego
govoriti što je ispravno.
08:41
But this is TEDTED,
189
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Ali ovo je TED
08:43
so let's get practicalpraktičan.
190
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1987
pa budimo praktični.
08:45
I want to sharePodjeli a fewnekoliko suggestionsPrijedlozi
191
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Želim dati nekoliko prijedloga
08:47
of things that citizensgrađani
of the internetInternet like you and I
192
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što građani interneta poput vas i mene
08:50
mightmoć be ableu stanju to do to make things
a little bitbit lessmanje toxicotrovan.
193
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3137
mogu učiniti da stvari
postanu malo manje toksične.
08:54
So the first one is to be a smartpametan skepticskeptik.
194
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2300
Prva je da budete pametni skeptik.
08:57
So, I think there are
two kindsvrste of skepticismskepticizam.
195
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2197
Mislim da postoje
dvije vrste skepticizma.
09:00
And I don't want to drownutopiti you in technicaltehnička
epistemologicalepistemološka informationinformacija here,
196
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4228
I ne želim vas udaviti definicijama,
09:04
but I call them smartpametan and dumbglup skepticismskepticizam.
197
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2628
ali ja ih zovem pametnim
i glupim skepticizmom.
09:08
So, smartpametan skepticismskepticizam:
198
536176
2507
Dakle, pametni skepticizam:
09:10
thinkingmišljenje for yourselfsami,
199
538707
1204
misliti svojom glavom,
09:11
questioningispitivanje everysvaki claimzahtjev,
200
539935
1192
preispitati činjenice,
09:13
demandingzahtjevan evidencedokaz --
201
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tražiti dokaze,
09:14
great, that's realstvaran skepticismskepticizam.
202
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1717
sve je to zdravi skepticizam.
09:17
DumbGlupi skepticismskepticizam:
it soundszvukovi like skepticismskepticizam,
203
545397
2630
Glupi skepticizam: zvuči kao skepticizam,
09:20
but it's actuallyzapravo closerbliže
to knee-jerkkoljeno-zajebavati contrarianismcontrarianism.
204
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ali je zapravo bliže
refleksnom kontriranju.
09:23
EveryoneSvi sayskaže the earthZemlja is roundkrug,
205
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1573
Svi kažu da je Zemlja okrugla,
09:25
you say it's flatravan.
206
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1356
ti kažeš da je ravna.
09:26
EveryoneSvi sayskaže racismrasizam is badloše,
207
554794
1567
Svi kažu da je rasizam loš,
09:28
you say, "I dunnoNe znam,
I'm skepticalskeptičan about that."
208
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2585
ti kažeš, "Ne znam,
skeptik sam u vezi s tim."
09:31
I cannotNe možete tell you how manymnogi youngmladi whitebijela menmuškarci
I have spokengovorni to in the last fewnekoliko yearsgodina
209
559682
4119
Ne mogu vam reći s koliko sam
mladih bijelih muškaraca pričao
09:35
who have said,
210
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1156
koji su mi rekli,
09:37
"You know, the mediamedia, my teachersučitelji,
they're all tryingtežak to indoctrinateindoktrinirati me
211
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3400
"Znaš, mediji, moji nastavnici,
svi me pokušavaju indoktrinirati
da povjerujem u privilegije
muškaraca i bijelaca,
09:40
into believingvjerujući in malemuški privilegeprivilegija
and whitebijela privilegeprivilegija,
212
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2523
ali ja nisam baš uvjeren da je to tako."
09:42
but I don't know about that,
man, I don't think so."
213
570976
2452
Dečki, kontrirajući
bijeli tinejdžeri svijeta,
09:45
Guys -- contrariancontrarian
whitebijela teenstinejdžeri of the worldsvijet --
214
573452
3137
09:48
look:
215
576613
2118
gledajte,
09:50
if you are beingbiće a roundkrug earthZemlja skepticskeptik
and a malemuški privilegeprivilegija skepticskeptik
216
578755
3713
ukoliko ne vjerujete da je Zemlja okrugla,
muškarci privilegirani
09:54
and a racismrasizam is badloše skepticskeptik,
217
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2310
i da je rasizam loš,
09:56
you're not beingbiće a skepticskeptik,
you're beingbiće a jerkkreten.
218
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2325
vi niste skeptik, nego budala.
09:59
(ApplausePljesak)
219
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3593
(Pljesak)
10:04
It's great to be independent-mindednezavisni istomišljenika,
we all should be independent-mindednezavisni istomišljenika,
220
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Odlično je biti nezavisni mislilac,
svi bismo trebali biti takvi,
10:07
but just be smartpametan about it.
221
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ali trebamo to raditi pametno.
10:09
So this nextSljedeći one is about freebesplatno speechgovor.
222
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Sad bih se osvrnuo na slobodu govora.
10:11
You will hearčuti smartpametan, accomplishedostvariti people
who will say, "Well, I'm pro-freebez Pro speechgovor,"
223
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3964
Često čujemo pametne, uspješne ljude
koji kažu da se zalažu za slobodu govora,
10:15
and they say it in this way
that it's like they're settlingnaseljavanje a debatedebata,
224
603781
3273
i to kažu na način kao da je to kraj
rasprave o ovakvim temama.
10:19
when actuallyzapravo, that is the very beginningpočetak
of any meaningfulznačajan conversationrazgovor.
225
607078
3815
Zapravo, to je tek početak bilo
kojeg značajnog razgovora.
10:23
All the interestingzanimljiv stuffstvari
happensdogađa se after that pointtočka.
226
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Sve zanimljivo događa se nakon te izjave.
10:26
OK, you're pro-freebez Pro speechgovor.
What does that mean?
227
614051
2304
OK, zalažete se za slobodu
govora. Što to znači?
10:28
Does it mean that DavidDavid DukeVojvoda
and RichardRichard SpencerSpencer
228
616379
2287
Znači li to da David Duke
i Richard Spencer
10:30
need to have activeaktivan TwitterTwitter accountsračuni?
229
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1845
moraju imati aktivne profile na Twitteru?
10:32
Does it mean that anyonebilo tko
can harassuznemiravanje anyonebilo tko elsedrugo onlinena liniji
230
620888
2643
Znači li to da bilo tko ima pravo
uznemiravati druge
10:35
for any reasonrazlog?
231
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iz bilo kojeg razloga?
10:37
You know, I lookedgledao throughkroz
the entirečitav listpopis of TEDTED speakerszvučnici this yeargodina.
232
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Pregledao sam sve govornike na
TED događanjima ove godine.
Nisam našao nijednog ravnozemljaša.
10:40
I didn't find a singlesingl
roundkrug earthZemlja skepticskeptik.
233
628343
2036
10:42
Is that a violationpovreda of freebesplatno speechgovor normsnorme?
234
630403
2142
Znači li to da su
prekršene slobode govora?
10:45
Look, we're all pro-freebez Pro speechgovor,
it's wonderfulpredivan to be pro-freebez Pro speechgovor,
235
633086
3542
Svi smo mi za slobodu govora,
divno je biti za slobodu govora,
10:48
but if that's all you know
how to say again and again,
236
636652
2621
ali ako je to sve što znate
i neprestano ponavljate,
10:51
you're standingstajati in the way
of a more productiveproduktivan conversationrazgovor.
237
639297
2991
sprječavate mogućnost
korisnijeg razgovora.
10:56
MakingStvaranje decencypristojnost coolsvjež again, so ...
238
644105
3135
Vratimo uljudnost u modu.
10:59
Great!
239
647264
1198
Sjajno!
11:00
(ApplausePljesak)
240
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1541
(Pljesak)
11:02
Yeah. I don't even need to explainobjasniti it.
241
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To ne moram ni objašnjavati.
11:04
So in my researchistraživanje, I would go
to RedditReddit or YouTubeMladost or FacebookFacebook,
242
652181
3846
U svom istraživanju išao sam
na Reddit, YouTube i Facebook
11:08
and I would searchtraži for "shariaŠerijatski lawzakon"
243
656051
2300
i tražio sam "šerijatsko pravo"
11:10
or I would searchtraži for "the HolocaustSpomenik žrtvama holokausta,"
244
658375
2116
ili npr. "Holokaust",
11:12
and you mightmoć be ableu stanju to guessnagađati
what the algorithmsalgoritmi showedpokazala me, right?
245
660515
3374
i možete naslutiti što su mi
algoritmi pokazali, zar ne?
11:16
"Is shariaŠerijatski lawzakon sweepingbrišući
acrosspreko the UnitedUjedinjeni StatesDržava?"
246
664386
2930
"Je li šerijatsko pravo
zavladalo SAD-om?"
11:19
"Did the HolocaustSpomenik žrtvama holokausta really happendogoditi se?"
247
667340
2094
"Je li se Holokaust uopće dogodio?"
11:22
DumbGlupi skepticismskepticizam.
248
670291
1258
Glupi skepticizam.
11:24
So we'veimamo endedzavršeno up in this
bizarrebizarno dynamicdinamičan onlinena liniji,
249
672835
2381
Tako smo završili u ovoj
bizarnoj online dinamici,
11:27
where some people see bigotednetrpeljiv propagandapropagande
250
675240
2092
u kojoj neki vide netrpeljivu propagandu
11:29
as beingbiće edgynervozan or beingbiće dangerousopasno and coolsvjež,
251
677356
2666
kao nešto izazovno, opasno i privlačno,
11:32
and people see basicosnovni truthistina
and humanljudski decencypristojnost as pearl-clutchingbiser-držeći
252
680046
3327
a obične istine i uljudnost
se percipiraju kao prenemaganje,
11:35
or virtue-signalingvrlina-signaliranje or just boringdosadan.
253
683397
2544
glumatanje ili jednostavno nešto dosadno.
11:38
And the socialsocijalni mediamedia algorithmsalgoritmi,
whetherda li intentionallynamjerno or not,
254
686329
3289
Algoritmi društvenih mreža su,
namjerno ili nenamjerno
11:41
they have incentivizedincentivized this,
255
689642
2023
pripomogli ovakvoj situaciji,
11:43
because bigotednetrpeljiv propagandapropagande
is great for engagementangažman.
256
691689
2928
zato što netrpeljiva propaganda
potiče reakcije drugih.
11:46
EveryoneSvi clicksklikova on it,
everyonesvatko commentskomentari on it,
257
694641
2266
Svi na to klikaju, svi komentiraju,
11:48
whetherda li they love it or they hatemrziti it.
258
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bilo da to vole ili mrze.
11:51
So the numberbroj one thing
that has to happendogoditi se here
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Prva stvar koja se treba dogoditi
11:53
is socialsocijalni networksmreže need
to fixpopraviti theirnjihov platformsplatforme.
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jest da društvene mreže porade
na svojim platformama.
11:57
(ApplausePljesak)
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(Pljesak)
12:01
So if you're listeningslušanje to my voiceglas
and you work at a socialsocijalni mediamedia companydruštvo
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709600
3430
Ukoliko me sada slušate i radite
za neku od društvenih mreža
12:05
or you investInvestirati in one
or, I don't know, ownvlastiti one,
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ili ste njihov investitor ili vlasnik,
12:08
this tipSavjet is for you.
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ovo je savjet za vas.
12:10
If you have been optimizingOptimiziranje
for maximummaksimum emotionalemotivan engagementangažman
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Ukoliko ste optimizirali za
maksimalan emotivni angažman
12:14
and maximummaksimum emotionalemotivan engagementangažman turnsokreti out
to be activelyaktivno harmingšteti the worldsvijet,
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4113
i to se pokazalo
destruktivnim za ovaj svijet,
12:18
it's time to optimizeoptimizirati for something elsedrugo.
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vrijeme je da optimiziramo za nešto drugo.
12:20
(ApplausePljesak)
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(Pljesak)
12:26
But in additiondodatak to puttingstavljanje pressurepritisak
on them to do that
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Osim što ćemo izvršiti pritisak
da se društvene mreže promijene,
12:30
and waitingčekanje for them
and hopingnadajući that they'lloni će do that,
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čekati i nadati se da će se promijeniti,
12:33
there's some stuffstvari that
the restodmor of us can do, too.
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postoji još nešto što svi možemo učiniti.
12:35
So, we can createstvoriti some better pathwaysputevi
or suggestpredložiti some better pathwaysputevi
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Možemo stvoriti ili sugerirati alternative
12:40
for angstynervozan teenstinejdžeri to go down.
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1991
za otuđene tinejdžere.
12:42
If you see something that you think
is really creativekreativan and thoughtfulpažljiv
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Ako vidite nešto kreativno ili duboko,
podijelite to na svojim profilima,
12:45
and you want to sharePodjeli that thing,
you can sharePodjeli that thing,
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čak i ako niste preplavljeni
intenzivnim osjećajima.
12:48
even if it's not floodingpoplava you
with highvisok arousaluzbuđenja emotionemocija.
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Jasno mi je da je to mali korak,
12:51
Now that is a very smallmali stepkorak, I realizeostvariti,
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2020
ali ako to svi učinimo,
onda to postaje važno,
12:53
but in the aggregateskupina,
this stuffstvari does matterstvar,
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2184
12:55
because these algorithmsalgoritmi,
as powerfulsnažan as they are,
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763254
2406
jer bez obzira na moć algoritama,
oni se oblikuju prema našem ponašanju.
12:57
they are takinguzimanje theirnjihov
behavioralponašanja cuesštapovi from us.
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13:01
So let me leavenapustiti you with this.
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Dozvolite mi da kažem još ovo.
13:03
You know, a fewnekoliko yearsgodina agoprije
it was really fashionablemoderan
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Prije nekoliko godina
bilo je zaista moderno
13:06
to say that the internetInternet
was a revolutionaryrevolucionar toolalat
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2313
reći da je internet revolucionaran alat
13:08
that was going to bringdonijeti us all togetherzajedno.
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2012
koji će nas sve povezati.
13:11
It's now more fashionablemoderan to say
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1589
Sad je moderno govoriti
13:12
that the internetInternet is a hugeogroman,
irredeemableneuništiv dumpsterkontejner firevatra.
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da je internet jedan golemi
kontejner pun smeća koje gori.
13:16
NeitherNi caricaturekarikatura is really truepravi.
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Nijedna od ovih karikatura nije točna.
13:18
We know the internetInternet
is just too vastogroman and complexkompleks
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2373
Svi znamo da je internet
prevelik i prekompleksan
13:21
to be all good or all badloše.
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da bi bio "dobar" ili "loš".
13:22
And the dangeropasnost with
these waysnačine of thinkingmišljenje,
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2087
Ovakav način razmišljanja je opasan,
13:24
whetherda li it's the utopianutopijski viewpogled
that the internetInternet will inevitablyneizbježno saveuštedjeti us
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bilo da je utopijski, da
će nas internet spasiti,
13:28
or the dystopiandistopijske viewpogled that it
will inevitablyneizbježno destroyuništiti us,
292
796161
3448
ili distopijski, da će nas
neminovno uništiti,
13:31
eitherili way, we're lettingiznajmljivanje
ourselvessebe off the hookkuka.
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u svakom slučaju - gubimo kontrolu.
13:35
There is nothing inevitableneizbježan
about our futurebudućnost.
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Ništa nije sigurno o našoj budućnosti.
13:38
The internetInternet is madenapravljen of people.
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2001
Internet čine ljudi.
13:40
People make decisionsodluke
at socialsocijalni mediamedia companiestvrtke.
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Ljudi donose odluke u tvrtkama koje
posjeduju društvene mreže.
13:43
People make hashtagshashtags trendtrend or not trendtrend.
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811911
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Ljudi odlučuju koji će
hashtagovi biti popularni.
13:46
People make societiesdruštva progressnapredak or regressregres.
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Ljudi čine da društva napreduju
ili se vraćaju unatrag.
13:51
When we internalizeinternaliziraju that factčinjenica,
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1535
Kad to shvatimo,
13:52
we can stop waitingčekanje
for some inevitableneizbježan futurebudućnost to arrivestići
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možemo prestati čekati nekakvu
neizvjesnu budućnost da se ostvari
13:55
and actuallyzapravo get to work now.
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i početi stvarati sada.
13:58
You know, we'veimamo all been taughtučio
that the arcluk of the moralmoralan universesvemir is long
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3519
Uče nas da je luk moralnog svemira dug,
ali da se ipak savija prema pravdi.
14:02
but that it bendszavoja towardprema justicepravda.
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14:06
Maybe.
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1230
Možda.
14:08
Maybe it will.
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1200
Možda je to uistinu tako.
14:10
But that has always been an aspirationaspiracija.
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Ali to je samo aspiracija,
14:13
It is not a guaranteejamčiti.
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nije garancija.
14:15
The arcluk doesn't bendzavoj itselfsebe.
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Luk se neće saviti sam.
14:18
It's not bentsavijena inevitablyneizbježno
by some mysteriousmisteriozan forcesila.
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3675
Neće ga saviti neka nevidljiva sila.
14:21
The realstvaran truthistina,
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Stvarna istina,
14:23
whichkoji is scarierstrašnije and alsotakođer more liberatingoslobađajući,
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koja je strašnija, ali i oslobađajuća,
14:26
is that we bendzavoj it.
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jest da ga mi savijamo.
14:28
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
14:30
(ApplausePljesak)
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(Pljesak)
Translated by Zeljana Maric Ferli
Reviewed by Sanda Liker

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Andrew Marantz - Writer
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world.

Why you should listen

Since 2016, Andrew Marantz has been at work on a book about the perils of virality, the myth of linear progress and the American far right. To report the book, he spent several years embedded with some of the conspiracists, white supremacists and nihilist trolls who have become experts at using social media to advance their corrosive agendas. He also watched as some of social media's earliest and most influential founders started to reckon with the forces they'd unleashed. The book, forthcoming in October from Viking Press, is called Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hijacking of the American Conversation

Marantz became a staff writer at the New Yorker in 2017. Prior to that, he worked on the magazine's editorial staff, splitting his time between writing stories (about such topics as hip-hop purism and the Truman Show delusion) and editing stories (about Las Vegas night clubs, Liberian warlords and many other things). Ultimately, Marantz's main interest lies not in any particular subject matter, but in how people form beliefs -- and under what circumstances those beliefs can change for the better.

Marantz is also a contributor to Radiolab and The New Yorker Radio Hour, and has written for Harper's, Mother Jones, the New York Times and many other outlets. He holds an undergraduate degree in religion from Brown University and a master's degree in literary nonfiction from New York University. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, who is a criminal-justice reformer; his two-year-old son, who is an excellent dancer; and an endless supply of peanut butter.

More profile about the speaker
Andrew Marantz | Speaker | TED.com

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