Andrew Marantz: Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists
安德魯 · 馬蘭茲: 深入網路酸民和網路推手的怪異世界
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
people on the internet.
最糟糕的人對談。
a lot of toxic garbage out there:
有很多有害的垃圾:
viral misinformation.
宣傳、瘋傳的錯誤資訊。
who was making this stuff.
他們怎麼散播這些資訊,
how they were spreading it.
我們的社會會有什麼影響。
it might be having on our society.
追蹤這些媒因的源頭,
some of these memes back to their source,
or who were making them go viral.
或讓它們被瘋傳的人。
我能去看你做的事嗎?」
Can I come watch you do what you do?"
「我為什麼會想要理會
猶太佬娘娘腔,
Brooklyn globalist Jew cuck
"Look, man, that's only 57 percent true."
老兄,你說的只對了 57%。」
是相反的回應。
in the living room
in Southern California.
家中的客廳裡。
in his late 30s.
with a mug of coffee,
上面有裝著咖啡的馬克杯、
to Periscope and YouTube.
和 YouTube 做直播用的 iPad。
noxious talking points
激進又有害的論點
the American conversation.
had a Muslim-sounding name.
名字聽起來像是穆斯林。
this seemed like an opportunity,
這似乎是個機會,
就是讓美國拒絕所有的移民,
almost all immigration,
為主的國家來的移民。
worked up into a frenzy
激發出一股熱潮,
was going to kill us all
會讓我們死光光,
試圖讓那些關鍵字紅起來。
數以百計的推文,
images like this one.
and philanthropist,
億萬富翁以及慈善家,
of some conspiracists online,
a globalist bogeyman,
主張全球主義的大妖怪,
manipulating all of global affairs.
全球事務的少數菁英之一。
if this idea sounds familiar to you,
這個想法聽起來很耳熟,
who control the world
anti-Semitic tropes in existence.
最反猶太人的比喻之一。
in New York who planted that bomb,
在紐約放置炸彈的那個人,
很清楚知道這些。
he understood all this.
他其實是個律師。
He was actually a lawyer.
do not drive conversation online.
在網路上引起熱議。
要將我們大家都集結起來,
to bring us all together,
and tolerant and fair ...
have never been built
在創造時就從來沒有
what's true or false,
what's prosocial and what's antisocial.
is measure engagement:
衡量你的參與程度:
retweets, that kind of thing.
分享、轉推之類的。
to get engagement,
能得到大家參與,
call "high-arousal emotion."
這類情緒為「高度亢奮」情緒。
mean sexual arousal,
不是只有在性高潮時才有,
obviously that works.
that gets people's hearts pumping.
任何能讓人心跳加速的東西。
but dozens of them,
還有數十個這種人,
again and again successfully,
成功使出這些招數,
not because they were tech prodigies,
俄國駭客或科技奇才,
unique political insights --
獨特的政治洞見——
how social media worked,
社交媒體如何運作,
to exploit it to their advantage.
this was a fringe phenomenon,
relegated to the internet.
between the internet and everything else.
on multiple TV stations
that one of the candidates
其中一位候選人
international manipulator George Soros,
next to stacks of cash.
將他放在成疊的現金旁邊。
the President of the United States,
同樣也沒有證據就斷言,
manipulated by George Soros.
and marginal and, frankly, just ignorable,
令人震驚但微不足道,
that we hardly even notice it.
幾乎不會注意到其氾濫的程度。
three years in this world.
no core beliefs at all.
perfectly rationally,
to make some money online
as outrageous as possible.
who were true ideologues.
意識形態者談過。
was not traditional conservatism.
並非傳統的保守主義。
to revoke female suffrage.
to go back to racial segregation.
把民主都一起廢除。
with democracy altogether.
were not born believing these things.
也不相信這些事物。
in elementary school.
down some internet rabbit hole,
網路的超現實世界之前,
or they had been socialist
或社會主義者,
of a high IQ and a low EQ.
in anonymous, online spaces
線上空間感到很自在,
to these message boards
討論區或者各種論壇,
最糟糕的衝動會被放大。
would be magnified.
something just as a sick joke,
開個下流玩笑,
positive reinforcement for that joke,
得到很多積極的支持,
"internet points," as they called it,
所謂「網路分數」,
believing their own joke.
who grew up in New Jersey,
她在新澤西長大,
she moved to a new place
她搬到了一個新地方,
alienated and cut off
spaces on the internet
the most shocking, heinous things.
最驚人、令人髮指的事。
really off-putting
look away from it.
網路空間中和人互動,
in these online spaces,
很聰明、有人肯定。
they made her feel validated.
媒因當中可能有些
some of these shocking memes
with some of her new internet friends
新網友共乘一台車,
帶著火把遊行。
in the name of the white race.
from Obama supporter
她就從歐巴馬支持者
out of the cult of white supremacy.
來擺脫白人至上的崇拜。
I spoke to were not.
that I had to find common ground
都找到共同點,
「你知道嗎,老兄,
you're a fascist propagandist, I'm not,
all our differences will melt away."
我們的歧見都會消失。」
just look away from this stuff.
我們無法忽視這個狀況。
because only by understanding it
因為只有透過了解它,
ourselves against it.
I got a few nasty phone calls,
我接到幾通很糟糕的電話,
female journalists get on this beat.
這只是冰山一角。
couldn't tell I was Jewish,
很多納粹無法看出我是猶太人,
kind of disappointing.
is being a professional anti-Semite.
全心全意在反猶太人啊。
is tipping you off at all?
讓你們看出來嗎?
I write for "The New Yorker,"
我為《紐約客》撰文,
is like if a Seinfeld episode
it would be nice
來說明就好了:
equals 12 percent chance of Nazi.
being descriptive, not prescriptive.
而不是提解決方案。
of the internet like you and I
a little bit less toxic.
two kinds of skepticism.
epistemological information here,
太技術面的認識論資訊,
聰明懷疑論和愚蠢懷疑論。
it sounds like skepticism,
它聽起來像是懷疑論,
to knee-jerk contrarianism.
I'm skeptical about that."
我對這點抱持懷疑。」
I have spoken to in the last few years
白種年輕男性當中有相當多
they're all trying to indoctrinate me
他們都試著要灌輸我,
and white privilege,
我不這麼認為。」
man, I don't think so."
white teens of the world --
and a male privilege skeptic
懷疑男性特權、
you're being a jerk.
你只是個蠢蛋。
we all should be independent-minded,
我們都應該有獨立見解,
who will say, "Well, I'm pro-free speech,"
「我是支持自由言論的。」
that it's like they're settling a debate,
就好像他們是在解決辯論,
of any meaningful conversation.
正要開始的時候。
happens after that point.
這個時點之後。
What does that mean?
那是什麼意思?
and Richard Spencer
和理查德斯賓塞
can harass anyone else online
用任何理由在線上騷擾任何人?
the entire list of TED speakers this year.
TED 講者名單。
round earth skeptic.
it's wonderful to be pro-free speech,
how to say again and again,
一而再再而三地那樣說,
of a more productive conversation.
再次成為很酷的事,所以……
to Reddit or YouTube or Facebook,
或 YouTube 或臉書,
what the algorithms showed me, right?
會呈現什麼給我,對吧?
across the United States?"
橫掃美國全境?」
bizarre dynamic online,
這種怪異的網路現象,
and human decency as pearl-clutching
whether intentionally or not,
is great for engagement.
everyone comments on it,
that has to happen here
to fix their platforms.
修改它們的平台。
and you work at a social media company
且你在社交媒體公司工作,
or, I don't know, own one,
for maximum emotional engagement
會煽動情緒的內容或影片,
to be actively harming the world,
實際上會傷害到這個世界,
有意義的事情了。
on them to do that
and hoping that they'll do that,
the rest of us can do, too.
or suggest some better pathways
is really creative and thoughtful
很有創意和巧思的東西,
you can share that thing,
with high arousal emotion.
this stuff does matter,
as powerful as they are,
behavioral cues from us.
it was really fashionable
was a revolutionary tool
irredeemable dumpster fire.
is just too vast and complex
不可能是全好或全壞的。
these ways of thinking,
that the internet will inevitably save us
拯救我們的烏托邦觀點,
will inevitably destroy us,
我們的反烏托邦觀點,
ourselves off the hook.
about our future.
at social media companies.
for some inevitable future to arrive
某種無可避免的未來發生,
that the arc of the moral universe is long
弧形軌跡很漫長,
by some mysterious force.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Andrew Marantz - WriterAndrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world.
Why you should listen
Since 2016, Andrew Marantz has been at work on a book about the perils of virality, the myth of linear progress and the American far right. To report the book, he spent several years embedded with some of the conspiracists, white supremacists and nihilist trolls who have become experts at using social media to advance their corrosive agendas. He also watched as some of social media's earliest and most influential founders started to reckon with the forces they'd unleashed. The book, forthcoming in October from Viking Press, is called Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hijacking of the American Conversation.
Marantz is also a contributor to Radiolab and The New Yorker Radio Hour, and has written for Harper's, Mother Jones, the New York Times and many other outlets. He holds an undergraduate degree in religion from Brown University and a master's degree in literary nonfiction from New York University. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, who is a criminal-justice reformer; his two-year-old son, who is an excellent dancer; and an endless supply of peanut butter.
Andrew Marantz | Speaker | TED.com