ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Andrew Marantz - Writer
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world.

Why you should listen

Since 2016, Andrew Marantz has been at work on a book about the perils of virality, the myth of linear progress and the American far right. To report the book, he spent several years embedded with some of the conspiracists, white supremacists and nihilist trolls who have become experts at using social media to advance their corrosive agendas. He also watched as some of social media's earliest and most influential founders started to reckon with the forces they'd unleashed. The book, forthcoming in October from Viking Press, is called Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hijacking of the American Conversation

Marantz became a staff writer at the New Yorker in 2017. Prior to that, he worked on the magazine's editorial staff, splitting his time between writing stories (about such topics as hip-hop purism and the Truman Show delusion) and editing stories (about Las Vegas night clubs, Liberian warlords and many other things). Ultimately, Marantz's main interest lies not in any particular subject matter, but in how people form beliefs -- and under what circumstances those beliefs can change for the better.

Marantz is also a contributor to Radiolab and The New Yorker Radio Hour, and has written for Harper's, Mother Jones, the New York Times and many other outlets. He holds an undergraduate degree in religion from Brown University and a master's degree in literary nonfiction from New York University. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, who is a criminal-justice reformer; his two-year-old son, who is an excellent dancer; and an endless supply of peanut butter.

More profile about the speaker
Andrew Marantz | Speaker | TED.com
TED2019

Andrew Marantz: Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists

安德魯 · 馬蘭茲: 深入網路酸民和網路推手的怪異世界

Filmed:
1,676,355 views

記者安德魯 · 馬蘭茲花了三年時間深入網路酸民和社交媒體推手的世界,試圖找到那些將邊緣話題推入線上對話核心的人,和了解他們如何散播他們的想法。一起來一探線上宣傳和錯誤資訊的世界,了解如何讓網路不那麼有害。
- Writer
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
I spent花費 the past過去 three years年份
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我過去三年的時間,
00:14
talking to some of the worst最差
people on the internet互聯網.
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都在和網路上一些
最糟糕的人對談。
00:18
Now, if you've been online線上 recently最近,
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如果你最近上過網,
00:20
you may可能 have noticed注意到 that there's
a lot of toxic有毒的 garbage垃圾 out there:
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你可能會發現,網路上
有很多有害的垃圾:
00:24
racist種族主義者 memes模因, misogynist厭惡 propaganda宣傳,
viral病毒 misinformation誤傳.
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種族主義的媒因、仇恨女性的
宣傳、瘋傳的錯誤資訊。
00:29
So I wanted to know
who was making製造 this stuff東東.
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我想要知道幕後的黑手是誰,
他們怎麼散播這些資訊,
00:31
I wanted to understand理解
how they were spreading傳播 it.
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最終,我想要知道這對
我們的社會會有什麼影響。
00:34
Ultimately最終,, I wanted to know
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00:35
what kind of impact碰撞
it might威力 be having on our society社會.
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所以,2016 年,我開始
追蹤這些媒因的源頭,
00:38
So in 2016, I started開始 tracing追踪
some of these memes模因 back to their source資源,
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00:42
back to the people who were making製造 them
or who were making製造 them go viral病毒.
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追溯到製造這些資訊
或讓它們被瘋傳的人。
我會去接近這些人,說:「我是記者。
我能去看你做的事嗎?」
00:45
I'd approach途徑 those people and say,
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00:47
"Hey, I'm a journalist記者.
Can I come watch you do what you do?"
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通常得到的回應是:
「我為什麼會想要理會
00:50
Now, often經常 the response響應 would be,
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00:51
"Why in hell地獄 would I want to talk to
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住布魯克林,支持全球主義的
猶太佬娘娘腔,
00:53
some low-t低t soy-boy大豆男孩
Brooklyn布魯克林 globalist全球主義者 Jew cuckcuck
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00:55
who's誰是 in cahoots同流合污 with the Democrat民主黨人 Party派對?"
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且還是民主黨的同謀?」
00:57
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
00:59
To which哪一個 my response響應 would be,
"Look, man, that's only 57 percent百分 true真正."
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對此,我的回應是:「聽著,
老兄,你說的只對了 57%。」
01:03
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
01:04
But often經常 I got the opposite對面 response響應.
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但,通常,我得到的
是相反的回應。
01:06
"Yeah, sure, come on by."
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「好啊,過來吧。」
01:08
So that's how I ended結束 up
in the living活的 room房間
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所以這就是我為什麼最後會跑到
01:10
of a social社會 media媒體 propagandist宣傳工作者
in Southern南部的 California加州.
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南加州社交媒體網路推手
家中的客廳裡。
01:14
He was a married已婚 white白色 guy
in his late晚了 30s.
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他是個已婚白種男子,近四十歲。
01:16
He had a table in front面前 of him
with a mug of coffee咖啡,
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他前面有一張桌子,
上面有裝著咖啡的馬克杯、
01:19
a laptop筆記本電腦 for tweeting啁啾,
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推特用的筆電、
01:21
a phone電話 for texting發短信
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傳訊息用的手機,
01:23
and an iPadiPad的 for livestreaming即時串流
to Periscope潛望鏡 and YouTubeYouTube的.
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以及在 Periscope
和 YouTube 做直播用的 iPad。
01:27
That was it.
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就這樣。
01:28
And yet然而, with those tools工具,
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但,有這些工具,
01:30
he was able能夠 to propel推進 his fringe邊緣,
noxious talking points
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他就能夠推動他那些
激進又有害的論點
01:34
into the heart of
the American美國 conversation會話.
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進入美國人對話的核心地帶。
01:37
For example, one of the days I was there,
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比如,我在那裡的其中一天,
01:39
a bomb炸彈 had just exploded爆炸 in New York紐約,
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紐約有一顆炸彈爆炸,
01:42
and the guy accused被告 of planting種植 the bomb炸彈
had a Muslim-sounding穆斯林發音 name名稱.
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被指控放置炸彈的人,
名字聽起來像是穆斯林。
01:45
Now, to the propagandist宣傳工作者 in California加州,
this seemed似乎 like an opportunity機會,
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對這位加州的社交推手來說,
這似乎是個機會,
01:50
because one of the things he wanted
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因為他的期望之一,
就是讓美國拒絕所有的移民,
01:51
was for the US to cut off
almost幾乎 all immigration移民,
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01:54
especially特別 from Muslim-majority穆斯林佔多數 countries國家.
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特別是從以穆斯林
為主的國家來的移民。
01:57
So he started開始 livestreaming即時串流,
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所以他開始直播,
01:59
getting得到 his followers追隨者
worked工作 up into a frenzy發狂
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讓他的追隨者逐步
激發出一股熱潮,
02:01
about how the open打開 borders國界 agenda議程
was going to kill us all
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宣導說開放邊界的議程
會讓我們死光光,
02:04
and asking them to tweet鳴叫 about this,
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並請他們發相關推文,
並使用特定的「#」標籤,
試圖讓那些關鍵字紅起來。
02:06
and use specific具體 hashtags主題標籤,
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02:07
trying to get those hashtags主題標籤 trending趨勢.
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02:09
And tweet鳴叫 they did --
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而他們發的推文——
數以百計的推文,
02:10
hundreds數以百計 and hundreds數以百計 of tweets微博,
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02:12
a lot of them featuring特色
images圖片 like this one.
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當中有許多都含有類似這樣的圖像。
02:15
So that's George喬治 Soros索羅斯.
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這是喬治索羅斯。
02:17
He's a Hungarian匈牙利 billionaire億萬富翁
and philanthropist慈善家,
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他是匈牙利裔的
億萬富翁以及慈善家,
02:19
and in the minds頭腦
of some conspiracistsconspiracists online線上,
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在一些線上陰謀理論家的心中,
02:22
George喬治 Soros索羅斯 is like
a globalist全球主義者 bogeyman妖怪,
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喬治索羅斯就像是
主張全球主義的大妖怪,
02:24
one of a few少數 elites精英 who is secretly偷偷
manipulating操縱 all of global全球 affairs事務.
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是秘密操控所有
全球事務的少數菁英之一。
02:29
Now, just to pause暫停 here:
if this idea理念 sounds聲音 familiar to you,
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在這裡暫停一下:如果你覺得
這個想法聽起來很耳熟,
02:32
that there are a few少數 elites精英
who control控制 the world世界
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有幾位掌控世界的菁英,
02:35
and a lot of them happen發生 to be rich豐富 Jews猶太人,
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且多半剛好是有錢的猶太人,
02:37
that's because it is one of the most
anti-Semitic反猶太人的 tropes比喻 in existence存在.
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那是因為這是現存
最反猶太人的比喻之一。
02:42
I should also mention提到 that the guy
in New York紐約 who planted種植的 that bomb炸彈,
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我也應該提一下,
在紐約放置炸彈的那個人,
02:45
he was an American美國 citizen公民.
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他是美國公民。
02:47
So whatever隨你 else其他 was going on there,
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所以不論他的理由是什麼,
02:50
immigration移民 was not the main主要 issue問題.
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移民都不是主要的議題。
而加州的這位網路推手
很清楚知道這些。
02:53
And the propagandist宣傳工作者 in California加州,
he understood了解 all this.
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他是個博學的人。
他其實是個律師。
02:56
He was a well-read博學的 guy.
He was actually其實 a lawyer律師.
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02:58
He knew知道 the underlying底層 facts事實,
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他知道背後的事實,
03:00
but he also knew知道 that facts事實
do not drive駕駛 conversation會話 online線上.
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但他也知道事實無法
在網路上引起熱議。
03:03
What drives驅動器 conversation會話 online線上
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能在網路上引起熱議的,
03:05
is emotion情感.
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是情緒。
03:07
See, the original原版的 premise前提 of social社會 media媒體
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社交媒體的最初的初衷是
要將我們大家都集結起來,
03:09
was that it was going
to bring帶來 us all together一起,
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讓世界更開放、更包容、更公平……
03:11
make the world世界 more open打開
and tolerant寬容 and fair公平 ...
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03:14
And it did some of that.
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它確實有做到一部分。
03:16
But the social社會 media媒體 algorithms算法
have never been built內置
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但社交媒體的演算法
在創造時就從來沒有
03:19
to distinguish區分 between之間
what's true真正 or false,
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考量過如何分辨真偽,
03:21
what's good or bad for society社會,
what's prosocial親社會 and what's antisocial反社會的.
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什麼對社會好或不好,
什麼是親社會的,什麼是反社會的。
03:25
That's just not what those algorithms算法 do.
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那些演算法的目的就不是這些。
03:28
A lot of what they do
is measure測量 engagement訂婚:
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它們所做的,多半是
衡量你的參與程度:
03:30
clicks點擊, comments註釋, shares分享,
retweets銳推, that kind of thing.
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點閱率、留言、
分享、轉推之類的。
03:33
And if you want your content內容
to get engagement訂婚,
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如果你希望你寫的內容
能得到大家參與,
03:36
it has to spark火花 emotion情感,
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你的東西就得能煽動情緒,
03:38
specifically特別, what behavioral行為的 scientists科學家們
call "high-arousal高覺醒 emotion情感."
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明確來說,行為科學家稱
這類情緒為「高度亢奮」情緒。
03:42
Now, "high arousal覺醒" doesn't only
mean sexual有性 arousal覺醒,
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「高度亢奮」現象,
不是只有在性高潮時才有,
03:44
although雖然 it's the internet互聯網,
obviously明顯 that works作品.
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很明顯地,網路上也會出現。
03:47
It means手段 anything, positive or negative,
that gets得到 people's人們 hearts心中 pumping.
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不論正面或負面,它指的是
任何能讓人心跳加速的東西。
03:51
So I would sit with these propagandists宣傳,
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我和這些網路推手坐在一起,
03:53
not just the guy in California加州,
but dozens許多 of them,
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除了加州的那傢伙,
還有數十個這種人,
03:56
and I would watch as they did this
again and again successfully順利,
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我看著他們一而再再而三地
成功使出這些招數,
03:59
not because they were Russian俄語 hackers黑客,
not because they were tech高科技 prodigies天才,
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並不是因為他們是什麼
俄國駭客或科技奇才,
04:03
not because they had
unique獨特 political政治 insights見解 --
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也不是因為他們有
獨特的政治洞見——
04:05
just because they understood了解
how social社會 media媒體 worked工作,
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只因為他們了解
社交媒體如何運作,
且他們是刻意利用這點來圖利自己。
04:08
and they were willing願意
to exploit利用 it to their advantage優點.
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一開始,我還可以告訴自己,
04:10
Now, at first I was able能夠 to tell myself
this was a fringe邊緣 phenomenon現象,
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這只是跟網路有關的邊緣現象。
04:14
something that was
relegated降級 to the internet互聯網.
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04:16
But there's really no separation分割 anymore
between之間 the internet互聯網 and everything else其他.
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但,現在每件事都和網路有關了。
04:20
This is an ad廣告 that ran
on multiple TV電視 stations
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這是在數個電視台播出的廣告,
04:22
during the 2018 congressional國會 elections選舉,
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在 2018 年國會選舉時播放,
04:25
alleging指控 with very little evidence證據
that one of the candidates候選人
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用非常少的證據就斷言
其中一位候選人
04:28
was in the pocket口袋 of
international國際 manipulator機械手 George喬治 Soros索羅斯,
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是國際操弄家喬治索羅斯的走狗,
04:31
who is awkwardly笨拙 photoshoppedPhotoshop處理 here
next下一個 to stacks of cash現金.
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並用很笨拙的修圖技巧
將他放在成疊的現金旁邊。
04:35
This is a tweet鳴叫 from
the President主席 of the United聯合的 States狀態,
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這是來自美國總統的推文,
同樣也沒有證據就斷言,
04:37
alleging指控, again with no evidence證據,
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04:39
that American美國 politics政治 is being存在
manipulated操縱 by George喬治 Soros索羅斯.
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說美國政治被喬治索羅斯操控。
04:43
This stuff東東 that once一旦 seemed似乎 so shocking觸目驚心
and marginal邊緣 and, frankly坦率地說, just ignorable忽略,
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這種東西過去看起來
令人震驚但微不足道,
老實說,是可以忽略的,
04:47
it's now so normalized標準化
that we hardly幾乎不 even notice注意 it.
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現在卻被正常化了,我們
幾乎不會注意到其氾濫的程度。
04:50
So I spent花費 about
three years年份 in this world世界.
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所以,我花了三年在這個世界中。
04:52
I talked to a lot of people.
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我和很多人談過。
04:53
Some of them seemed似乎 to have
no core核心 beliefs信仰 at all.
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有些人似乎根本沒有核心信仰。
04:56
They just seemed似乎 to be betting博彩,
perfectly完美 rationally合理,
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他們就只是非常理性地想賭看看,
04:58
that if they wanted
to make some money online線上
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如果他們想在線上賺錢或得到關注,
05:01
or get some attention注意 online線上,
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他們就會盡可能地無法無天。
05:02
they should just be
as outrageous蠻橫的 as possible可能.
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05:04
But I talked to other people
who were true真正 ideologues空想家.
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但,我和其他真正的
意識形態者談過。
05:08
And to be clear明確, their ideology思想
was not traditional傳統 conservatism保守主義.
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讓我說清楚,他們的意識形態
並非傳統的保守主義。
05:12
These were people who wanted
to revoke撤銷 female suffrage選舉權.
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他們是想要取消女性投票權的人。
05:15
These were people who wanted
to go back to racial種族 segregation隔離.
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他們是想要回到種族隔離的人。
當中有些人想要
把民主都一起廢除。
05:18
Some of them wanted to do away
with democracy民主 altogether.
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05:21
Now, obviously明顯 these people
were not born天生 believing相信 these things.
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很顯然,這些人一點
也不相信這些事物。
他們在小學時沒有學到這些。
05:24
They didn't pick them up
in elementary初級 school學校.
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05:26
A lot of them, before they went
down some internet互聯網 rabbit兔子 hole,
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當中很多人,在他們進入
網路的超現實世界之前,
05:29
they had been libertarian自由主義者
or they had been socialist社會主義的
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他們曾經是自由論者
或社會主義者,
05:32
or they had been something else其他 entirely完全.
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或者曾經是完全不同的人。
那麼,發生了什麼事?
05:34
So what was going on?
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05:36
Well, I can't generalize概括 about every一切 case案件,
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我無法用一個說法代表所有案例,
05:39
but a lot of the people I spoke to,
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但有很多與我交談過的人
05:40
they seem似乎 to have a combination組合
of a high IQ智商 and a low EQ情 商.
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似乎都結合了高智商和低情緒智商。
05:44
They seem似乎 to take comfort安慰
in anonymous匿名, online線上 spaces空間
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他們似乎在暱名的
線上空間感到很自在,
05:48
rather than connecting in the real真實 world世界.
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而不是真實世界的連結。
05:50
So often經常 they would retreat撤退
to these message信息 boards
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所以,他們會退到這些
討論區或者各種論壇,
05:53
or these subreddits子雷迪特,
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在那些地方,他們
最糟糕的衝動會被放大。
05:54
where their worst最差 impulses衝動
would be magnified放大.
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05:56
They might威力 start開始 out saying
something just as a sick生病 joke玩笑,
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他們一開始可能只是
開個下流玩笑,
06:00
and then they would get so much
positive reinforcement加強 for that joke玩笑,
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接著,他們會從那個笑話
得到很多積極的支持,
06:03
so many許多 meaningless無意義的
"internet互聯網 points," as they called it,
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得到好多無意義的
所謂「網路分數」,
06:06
that they might威力 start開始
believing相信 their own擁有 joke玩笑.
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讓他們開始相信他們自己的玩笑。
06:10
I talked a lot with one young年輕 woman女人
who grew成長 up in New Jersey新澤西,
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我曾和一位年輕女子談了很多,
她在新澤西長大,
06:13
and then after high school學校,
she moved移動 to a new place地點
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高中畢業之後,
她搬到了一個新地方,
突然,她感到疏遠、孤獨,
06:16
and suddenly突然 she just felt
alienated疏遠 and cut off
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06:18
and started開始 retreating撤退 into her phone電話.
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開始退縮到她的手機當中。
06:20
She found發現 some of these
spaces空間 on the internet互聯網
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她在網路上找到空間,
06:23
where people would post崗位
the most shocking觸目驚心, heinous滔天 things.
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在那裡,大家會講一些
最驚人、令人髮指的事。
06:25
And she found發現 this stuff東東
really off-putting倒胃口
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她發現這些內容真的讓人厭惡,
06:28
but also kind of engrossing引人入勝,
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但卻也有點引人入勝,
06:30
kind of like she couldn't不能
look away from it.
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很難把視線從它們身上移開。
她開始在這些
網路空間中和人互動,
06:33
She started開始 interacting互動 with people
in these online線上 spaces空間,
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他們讓她覺得自己
很聰明、有人肯定。
06:36
and they made製作 her feel smart聰明,
they made製作 her feel validated驗證.
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她開始有了共同體的感覺,
06:38
She started開始 feeling感覺 a sense of community社區,
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並開始思考,這些驚人的
媒因當中可能有些
06:40
started開始 wondering想知道 if maybe
some of these shocking觸目驚心 memes模因
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真的是從真相發展出來的。
06:43
might威力 actually其實 contain包含 a kernel核心 of truth真相.
147
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06:46
A few少數 months個月 later後來, she was in a car汽車
with some of her new internet互聯網 friends朋友
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幾個月後,她和一些
新網友共乘一台車,
前往維吉尼亞的夏律第鎮,
06:49
headed當家 to Charlottesville夏洛茨維爾, Virginia弗吉尼亞州,
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打算以白人種族之名,
帶著火把遊行。
06:51
to march遊行 with torches火炬
in the name名稱 of the white白色 race種族.
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06:55
She'd gone走了, in a few少數 months個月,
from Obama奧巴馬 supporter支持者
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幾個月的時間,
她就從歐巴馬支持者
06:57
to fully充分 radicalized激進 white白色 supremacist至上主義.
152
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變成了激進的白人至上主義者。
07:01
Now, in her particular特定 case案件,
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在她這個特殊案例中,
07:03
she actually其實 was able能夠 to find her way
out of the cult禮拜 of white白色 supremacy霸權.
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她其實自己有能力可以找到方法
來擺脫白人至上的崇拜。
07:08
But a lot of the people
I spoke to were not.
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但和我談過話的許多人並沒有。
07:10
And just to be clear明確:
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讓我說清楚:
07:12
I was never so convinced相信
that I had to find common共同 ground地面
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我從來沒有如此深信
我必須要和我交談的每個人
都找到共同點,
07:15
with every一切 single person I spoke to
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07:17
that I was willing願意 to say,
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我甚至願意說:
「你知道嗎,老兄,
07:18
"You know what, man,
you're a fascist法西斯 propagandist宣傳工作者, I'm not,
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你是法西斯主義宣傳者,我不是,
07:21
whatever隨你, let's just hug擁抱 it out,
all our differences分歧 will melt熔化 away."
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不論如何,咱們抱一下就沒事了,
我們的歧見都會消失。」
不,絕對不可能。
07:25
No, absolutely絕對 not.
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07:28
But I did become成為 convinced相信 that we cannot不能
just look away from this stuff東東.
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但我的確相信,
我們無法忽視這個狀況。
07:31
We have to try to understand理解 it,
because only by understanding理解 it
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我們要試著了解它,
因為只有透過了解它,
07:34
can we even start開始 to inoculate接種
ourselves我們自己 against反對 it.
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我們才能開始預防它。
07:39
In my three years年份 in this world世界,
I got a few少數 nasty討厭 phone電話 calls電話,
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我待在這個世界中的三年期間,
我接到幾通很糟糕的電話,
07:42
even some threats威脅,
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甚至威脅,
07:44
but it wasn't a fraction分數 of what
female journalists記者 get on this beat擊敗.
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但和女性記者所碰到的相比
這只是冰山一角。
07:48
And yeah, I am Jewish猶太,
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是的,我是猶太人,
07:50
although雖然, weirdly古怪, a lot of the Nazis納粹
couldn't不能 tell I was Jewish猶太,
170
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不過,很奇怪的是,
很多納粹無法看出我是猶太人,
07:53
which哪一個 I frankly坦率地說 just found發現
kind of disappointing令人失望.
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坦白說我覺得有點失望。
07:56
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
07:58
Seriously認真地, like, your whole整個 job工作
is being存在 a professional專業的 anti-Semite反猶份子.
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說真的,你們這些人
全心全意在反猶太人啊。
08:03
Nothing about me
is tipping小費 you off at all?
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我沒有什麼地方會露餡
讓你們看出來嗎?
08:05
Nothing?
175
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都沒有嗎?
08:06
(Laughter笑聲)
176
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(笑聲)
08:09
This is not a secret秘密.
177
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這不是秘密。
08:11
My name名稱 is Andrew安德魯 Marantz馬蘭茨,
I write for "The New Yorker紐約客,"
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我的名字叫安德魯馬蘭茲,
我為《紐約客》撰文,
08:13
my personality個性 type類型
is like if a Seinfeld宋飛 episode插曲
179
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我的人格類型就像是《歡樂單身派對》
08:16
was taped錄音 at the Park公園 Slope Food餐飲 Coop雞舍.
180
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在公園坡食品合作社錄影的那一集。
08:18
Nothing?
181
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都沒有嗎?
08:19
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
08:24
Anyway無論如何, look -- ultimately最終,
it would be nice不錯
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總之——最終,
如果能有簡單的方程式
來說明就好了:
08:27
if there were, like, a simple簡單 formula:
184
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08:29
smartphone手機 plus alienated疏遠 kid孩子
equals等於 12 percent百分 chance機會 of Nazi納粹.
185
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手機+孤獨孩子= 12% 機會成為納粹。
08:33
It's obviously明顯 not that simple簡單.
186
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很顯然沒那麼簡單。
08:36
And in my writing寫作,
187
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我寫作時,
08:37
I'm much more comfortable自在
being存在 descriptive描述的, not prescriptive規範.
188
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我偏好做描述,
而不是提解決方案。
08:41
But this is TEDTED,
189
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不過這裡是 TED,
08:43
so let's get practical實際的.
190
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所以咱們實際點。
08:45
I want to share分享 a few少數 suggestions建議
191
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我想要分享幾個建議,
08:47
of things that citizens公民
of the internet互聯網 like you and I
192
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是你我這種網路公民可以做的事,
08:50
might威力 be able能夠 to do to make things
a little bit less toxic有毒的.
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能夠讓一切變得比較不那麼有害。
08:54
So the first one is to be a smart聰明 skeptic懷疑論者.
194
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2300
第一,要當聰明的懷疑論者。
08:57
So, I think there are
two kinds of skepticism懷疑論.
195
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我認為懷疑論有兩種。
09:00
And I don't want to drown you in technical技術
epistemological認識論 information信息 here,
196
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在這裡我不想談到
太技術面的認識論資訊,
09:04
but I call them smart聰明 and dumb skepticism懷疑論.
197
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但我把它們稱為
聰明懷疑論和愚蠢懷疑論。
09:08
So, smart聰明 skepticism懷疑論:
198
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所以,聰明懷疑論:
09:10
thinking思維 for yourself你自己,
199
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獨立思考、質疑每一項主張、
09:11
questioning疑問 every一切 claim要求,
200
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09:13
demanding嚴格 evidence證據 --
201
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索求證據——
09:14
great, that's real真實 skepticism懷疑論.
202
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很好,那是真的懷疑論。
09:17
Dumb skepticism懷疑論:
it sounds聲音 like skepticism懷疑論,
203
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愚蠢懷疑論:
它聽起來像是懷疑論,
09:20
but it's actually其實 closer接近
to knee-jerk膝反射 contrarianism反向主義.
204
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但它比較像是下意識的叛逆吐槽。
09:23
Everyone大家 says the earth地球 is round回合,
205
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大家都說地球是圓的,
09:25
you say it's flat平面.
206
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1356
你就說它是平的。
09:26
Everyone大家 says racism種族主義 is bad,
207
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大家都說種族主義不好,
09:28
you say, "I dunno不知道,
I'm skeptical懷疑的 about that."
208
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你就說:「我不知道,
我對這點抱持懷疑。」
09:31
I cannot不能 tell you how many許多 young年輕 white白色 men男人
I have spoken to in the last few少數 years年份
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在我過去幾年交談過的
白種年輕男性當中有相當多
09:35
who have said,
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都會說:
09:37
"You know, the media媒體, my teachers教師,
they're all trying to indoctrinate灌輸 me
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「要知道,媒體、我的老師,
他們都試著要灌輸我,
強迫我相信男性特權和白人特權,
09:40
into believing相信 in male privilege特權
and white白色 privilege特權,
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但我不確定,老兄,
我不這麼認為。」
09:42
but I don't know about that,
man, I don't think so."
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各位——世界上叛逆的白人青少年——
09:45
Guys -- contrarian逆勢
white白色 teens青少年 of the world世界 --
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09:48
look:
215
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聽著:
09:50
if you are being存在 a round回合 earth地球 skeptic懷疑論者
and a male privilege特權 skeptic懷疑論者
216
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如果你懷疑地球不是圓的、
懷疑男性特權、
09:54
and a racism種族主義 is bad skeptic懷疑論者,
217
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種族主義是好的,
09:56
you're not being存在 a skeptic懷疑論者,
you're being存在 a jerk混蛋.
218
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2325
你並不是懷疑論者,
你只是個蠢蛋。
09:59
(Applause掌聲)
219
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3593
(掌聲)
10:04
It's great to be independent-minded獨立思想,
we all should be independent-minded獨立思想,
220
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有獨立見解是好的,
我們都應該有獨立見解,
但這麼做時要放聰明點。
10:07
but just be smart聰明 about it.
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10:09
So this next下一個 one is about free自由 speech言語.
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下一個建議和自由言論有關。
10:11
You will hear smart聰明, accomplished完成 people
who will say, "Well, I'm pro-free支援自由 speech言語,"
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你會聽到聰明、有教養的人說:
「我是支持自由言論的。」
10:15
and they say it in this way
that it's like they're settling解決 a debate辯論,
224
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他們說的方式,
就好像他們是在解決辯論,
10:19
when actually其實, that is the very beginning開始
of any meaningful富有意義的 conversation會話.
225
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但那明明是一段有意義的對談
正要開始的時候。
10:23
All the interesting有趣 stuff東東
happens發生 after that point.
226
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有趣的事都會發生在
這個時點之後。
10:26
OK, you're pro-free支援自由 speech言語.
What does that mean?
227
614051
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好,你支持自由言論。
那是什麼意思?
10:28
Does it mean that David大衛 Duke公爵
and Richard理查德 Spencer斯賓塞
228
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2287
那是否表示大衛杜克
和理查德斯賓塞
10:30
need to have active活性 Twitter推特 accounts賬戶?
229
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必須得激活推特帳號?
10:32
Does it mean that anyone任何人
can harass騷擾 anyone任何人 else其他 online線上
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是否表示任何人都可以
用任何理由在線上騷擾任何人?
10:35
for any reason原因?
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10:37
You know, I looked看著 through通過
the entire整個 list名單 of TEDTED speakers音箱 this year.
232
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我看過今年度完整的
TED 講者名單。
沒有找到任何圓形地球懷疑論者。
10:40
I didn't find a single
round回合 earth地球 skeptic懷疑論者.
233
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這違反了自由言論的標準嗎?
10:42
Is that a violation違反 of free自由 speech言語 norms規範?
234
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2142
10:45
Look, we're all pro-free支援自由 speech言語,
it's wonderful精彩 to be pro-free支援自由 speech言語,
235
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我們都支持自由言論,這是好事,
10:48
but if that's all you know
how to say again and again,
236
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但如果你就只知道
一而再再而三地那樣說,
10:51
you're standing常設 in the way
of a more productive生產的 conversation會話.
237
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2991
你其實在阻礙更有成效的對談。
10:56
Making製造 decency風化 cool again, so ...
238
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3135
讓高尚文雅的行為
再次成為很酷的事,所以……
10:59
Great!
239
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1198
好極了!
11:00
(Applause掌聲)
240
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(掌聲)
11:02
Yeah. I don't even need to explain說明 it.
241
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我甚至不用解釋。
11:04
So in my research研究, I would go
to Reddit書籤交易 or YouTubeYouTube的 or FacebookFacebook的,
242
652181
3846
在我做研究時,我會上 Reddit
或 YouTube 或臉書,
11:08
and I would search搜索 for "sharia伊斯蘭教 law"
243
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2300
我會搜尋「伊斯蘭教教法」,
11:10
or I would search搜索 for "the Holocaust大屠殺,"
244
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或者我會搜尋「大屠殺」,
11:12
and you might威力 be able能夠 to guess猜測
what the algorithms算法 showed顯示 me, right?
245
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你們應該猜得到演算法
會呈現什麼給我,對吧?
11:16
"Is sharia伊斯蘭教 law sweeping籠統的
across橫過 the United聯合的 States狀態?"
246
664386
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「伊斯蘭教教法是否
橫掃美國全境?」
11:19
"Did the Holocaust大屠殺 really happen發生?"
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「大屠殺真的有發生嗎?」
11:22
Dumb skepticism懷疑論.
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愚蠢的懷疑論者。
11:24
So we've我們已經 ended結束 up in this
bizarre奇異的 dynamic動態 online線上,
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所以,最後在線上就產生了
這種怪異的網路現象,
11:27
where some people see bigoted拘泥 propaganda宣傳
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有些人會把偏執的推文視為
11:29
as being存在 edgy前衛 or being存在 dangerous危險 and cool,
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前衛的、危險又酷的,
11:32
and people see basic基本 truth真相
and human人的 decency風化 as pearl-clutching珍珠抓握
252
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對基本真理和人類的合宜行為
卻大驚小怪,
11:35
or virtue-signaling美德信號 or just boring無聊.
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或暗示美德很無聊。
11:38
And the social社會 media媒體 algorithms算法,
whether是否 intentionally故意地 or not,
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不論有意或無意,社交媒體演算法
11:41
they have incentivized誘因 this,
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都在鼓勵這些事,
11:43
because bigoted拘泥 propaganda宣傳
is great for engagement訂婚.
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因為偏執的宣傳很吸睛。
11:46
Everyone大家 clicks點擊 on it,
everyone大家 comments註釋 on it,
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大家都會點擊,大家都會留言,
11:48
whether是否 they love it or they hate討厭 it.
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不論他們討厭或喜歡該論點。
11:51
So the number one thing
that has to happen發生 here
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所以,必須要達成的第一件事,
11:53
is social社會 networks網絡 need
to fix固定 their platforms平台.
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就是社交媒體得要
修改它們的平台。
11:57
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
12:01
So if you're listening to my voice語音
and you work at a social社會 media媒體 company公司
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如果你在聽我的演說,
且你在社交媒體公司工作,
12:05
or you invest投資 in one
or, I don't know, own擁有 one,
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或者你有投資或擁有這類公司,
12:08
this tip小費 is for you.
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這項告誡是給你的。
12:10
If you have been optimizing優化
for maximum最大值 emotional情緒化 engagement訂婚
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如果你一直在優化
會煽動情緒的內容或影片,
12:14
and maximum最大值 emotional情緒化 engagement訂婚 turns out
to be actively積極地 harming漢寧波 the world世界,
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而結果發現煽動情緒
實際上會傷害到這個世界,
12:18
it's time to optimize優化 for something else其他.
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是時候要優化其它
有意義的事情了。
12:20
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
12:26
But in addition加成 to putting pressure壓力
on them to do that
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但,除了施壓讓他們去做
12:30
and waiting等候 for them
and hoping希望 that they'll他們會 do that,
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並且等待著希望他們會去做之外,
12:33
there's some stuff東東 that
the rest休息 of us can do, too.
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還有我們其他人也能做的事。
12:35
So, we can create創建 some better pathways途徑
or suggest建議 some better pathways途徑
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我們可以創造或建議更好的途徑
12:40
for angstyangsty teens青少年 to go down.
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給煩惱的青少年去走。
12:42
If you see something that you think
is really creative創作的 and thoughtful周到
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若你發現了什麼真的
很有創意和巧思的東西,
且你想要分享,那就去分享,
12:45
and you want to share分享 that thing,
you can share分享 that thing,
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即使它沒有讓你充滿高度興奮的情緒。
12:48
even if it's not flooding洪水 you
with high arousal覺醒 emotion情感.
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我知道,這是非常微小的一步,
12:51
Now that is a very small step, I realize實現,
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2020
但,加總起來,是會有影響的,
12:53
but in the aggregate骨料,
this stuff東東 does matter,
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12:55
because these algorithms算法,
as powerful強大 as they are,
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因為這些演算法雖然很強大,
它們會怎麼做,還是來自於我們。
12:57
they are taking服用 their
behavioral行為的 cues線索 from us.
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13:01
So let me leave離開 you with this.
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我想留給大家思考的是:
13:03
You know, a few少數 years年份 ago
it was really fashionable時髦
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幾年前,很時髦的人會說
13:06
to say that the internet互聯網
was a revolutionary革命的 tool工具
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網路是很革命性的工具,
13:08
that was going to bring帶來 us all together一起.
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可以把大家聚集在一起。
13:11
It's now more fashionable時髦 to say
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現在,時髦的人會說
13:12
that the internet互聯網 is a huge巨大,
irredeemable不可贖回 dumpster垃圾箱 fire.
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網路是不可救藥的大災難。
13:16
Neither也不 caricature漫畫 is really true真正.
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兩種誇張說法都不全對。
13:18
We know the internet互聯網
is just too vast廣大 and complex複雜
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我們知道網路太浩大、太複雜,
不可能是全好或全壞的。
13:21
to be all good or all bad.
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13:22
And the danger危險 with
these ways方法 of thinking思維,
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這些思考方式的危險在於,
13:24
whether是否 it's the utopian烏托邦 view視圖
that the internet互聯網 will inevitably必將 save保存 us
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不論是認為網路最終一定會
拯救我們的烏托邦觀點,
13:28
or the dystopian反烏托邦 view視圖 that it
will inevitably必將 destroy破壞 us,
292
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或者它最終一定會摧毀
我們的反烏托邦觀點,
13:31
either way, we're letting出租
ourselves我們自己 off the hook.
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不管怎樣,我們要讓自己擺脫困境。
13:35
There is nothing inevitable必然
about our future未來.
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我們的未來沒有什麼是不可避免的。
13:38
The internet互聯網 is made製作 of people.
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網路是人構成的。
13:40
People make decisions決定
at social社會 media媒體 companies公司.
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是人,在社交媒體公司做決定。
13:43
People make hashtags主題標籤 trend趨勢 or not trend趨勢.
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是人,讓 # 成為潮流或不流行。
13:46
People make societies社會 progress進展 or regress回歸.
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是人,讓社會進步或退步。
一旦我們能內化這事實,
13:51
When we internalize內在 that fact事實,
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13:52
we can stop waiting等候
for some inevitable必然 future未來 to arrive到達
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就可以停止等著
某種無可避免的未來發生,
13:55
and actually其實 get to work now.
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而真的現在就開始行動。
13:58
You know, we've我們已經 all been taught
that the arc of the moral道德 universe宇宙 is long
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我們都聽過,道德宇宙的
弧形軌跡很漫長,
但它終將彎向正義。
14:02
but that it bends彎曲 toward justice正義.
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14:06
Maybe.
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也許。
14:08
Maybe it will.
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也許會吧。
14:10
But that has always been an aspiration心願.
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但那只是鼓舞,
14:13
It is not a guarantee保證.
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而不是保證。
14:15
The arc doesn't bend彎曲 itself本身.
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道德軌跡並不會自己轉向。
14:18
It's not bent彎曲 inevitably必將
by some mysterious神秘 force.
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它不會被某種神秘力量改變方向。
14:21
The real真實 truth真相,
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真正的真相,其實比較可怕
14:23
which哪一個 is scarier可怕 and also more liberating解放,
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但也讓人放心,那就是:
14:26
is that we bend彎曲 it.
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我們能夠改變它。
14:28
Thank you.
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謝謝。
14:30
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
Translated by Lilian Chiu
Reviewed by Yi-Fan Yu

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Andrew Marantz - Writer
Andrew Marantz writes narrative journalism about politics, the internet and the way we understand our world.

Why you should listen

Since 2016, Andrew Marantz has been at work on a book about the perils of virality, the myth of linear progress and the American far right. To report the book, he spent several years embedded with some of the conspiracists, white supremacists and nihilist trolls who have become experts at using social media to advance their corrosive agendas. He also watched as some of social media's earliest and most influential founders started to reckon with the forces they'd unleashed. The book, forthcoming in October from Viking Press, is called Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hijacking of the American Conversation

Marantz became a staff writer at the New Yorker in 2017. Prior to that, he worked on the magazine's editorial staff, splitting his time between writing stories (about such topics as hip-hop purism and the Truman Show delusion) and editing stories (about Las Vegas night clubs, Liberian warlords and many other things). Ultimately, Marantz's main interest lies not in any particular subject matter, but in how people form beliefs -- and under what circumstances those beliefs can change for the better.

Marantz is also a contributor to Radiolab and The New Yorker Radio Hour, and has written for Harper's, Mother Jones, the New York Times and many other outlets. He holds an undergraduate degree in religion from Brown University and a master's degree in literary nonfiction from New York University. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, who is a criminal-justice reformer; his two-year-old son, who is an excellent dancer; and an endless supply of peanut butter.

More profile about the speaker
Andrew Marantz | Speaker | TED.com

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