TEDxHousesOfParliament
Rory Stewart: Why democracy matters
罗里 斯图尔特：民主为什么重要
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公众正在对民主制度失去信心——英国国会议员罗里-斯图尔特如是说。伊拉克和阿富汗的新民主政权腐朽不堪，与此同时，84％的英国人认为英国的政治已经破败。在这次演讲中，斯图尔特发出了重塑民主的呼吁，作为开始，他认为我们应该先弄清民主——不是作为一个工具，而是作为一种理念——到底为什么重要。
Rory Stewart - Politician
Rory Stewart -- a perpetual pedestrian, a diplomat, an adventurer and an author -- is the member of British Parliament for Penrith and the Border. Full bio
Rory Stewart -- a perpetual pedestrian, a diplomat, an adventurer and an author -- is the member of British Parliament for Penrith and the Border. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
So little Billy goes to school,
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小比利有一天去上学
00:19
and he sits down and the teacher says,
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老师问他
00:22
"What does your father do?"
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“你爸爸是做什么的？”
00:25
And little Billy says, "My father plays the piano
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小比利说：“我爸爸在鸦片馆里
00:28
in an opium den."
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弹钢琴“
00:32
So the teacher rings up the parents, and says,
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于是老师给小比利的父母打电话：
00:34
"Very shocking story from little Billy today.
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”小比利今天告诉我们一个很惊悚的故事，
00:37
Just heard that he claimed that you play the piano
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他说你在鸦片馆里
00:41
in an opium den."
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给人弹钢琴
00:43
And the father says, "I'm very sorry. Yes, it's true, I lied.
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比利的爸爸说：我很抱歉，我确实说谎了
00:47
But how can I tell an eight-year-old boy
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但是我要怎么跟一个八岁的孩子说
00:50
that his father is a politician?" (Laughter)
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他的爸爸是个政客呢？（笑声）
00:55
Now, as a politician myself, standing in front of you,
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现在，我自己作为一个政客站在你们面前
00:58
or indeed, meeting any stranger anywhere in the world,
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或者在在世界各地与陌生人会面
01:01
when I eventually reveal the nature of my profession,
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当我告诉他们我是个政客的时候
01:04
they look at me as though I'm somewhere between
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他们看我的眼神，就好像我是某种
01:07
a snake, a monkey and an iguana,
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蛇，猴子和蜥蜴的混合体
01:12
and through all of this, I feel, strongly,
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我非常强烈地感觉到
01:16
that something is going wrong.
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这里面有什么东西不太对劲
01:19
Four hundred years of maturing democracy,
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我们的民主体系已经发展了四百年
01:22
colleagues in Parliament who seem to me, as individuals,
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我在国会里的那些同事，在我看来
01:25
reasonably impressive, an increasingly educated,
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都是非常有魅力，受过高等教育
01:28
energetic, informed population, and yet
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精力充沛而且有教养的人
01:33
a deep, deep sense of disappointment.
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但是人们却对我们充满了深深的失望
01:38
My colleagues in Parliament include, in my new intake,
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在新一届的议会中，我的同事包括
01:42
family doctors, businesspeople, professors,
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医生，企业家，教授
01:47
distinguished economists, historians, writers,
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著名经济学家，历史学家，作家
01:51
army officers ranging from colonels down to regimental sergeant majors.
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还有军官，上至上校，下至准尉
01:56
All of them, however, including myself, as we walk underneath
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但是所有人，也包括我自己
02:00
those strange stone gargoyles just down the road,
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当我们和人们打交道时
02:04
feel that we've become less than the sum of our parts,
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我们觉得我们的能力被忽视了
02:08
feel as though we have become profoundly diminished.
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我们觉得我们的作用被低估了
02:13
And this isn't just a problem in Britain.
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这并不是一个在英国才有的问题
02:18
It's a problem across the developing world,
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这个问题广泛存在于发达国家世界里
02:20
and in middle income countries too. In Jamaica,
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在中等收入国家里也是如此
02:23
for example -- look at Jamaican members of Parliament,
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举个例子，在牙买加
02:26
you meet them, and they're often people who are
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他们的议员很多都是罗德奖学金获得者
02:29
Rhodes Scholars, who've studied at Harvard or at Princeton,
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毕业于哈佛或者普林斯顿
02:35
and yet, you go down to downtown Kingston,
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但是你走到金斯顿（牙买加首都）市区里看看
02:38
and you are looking at one of the most depressing sites
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你看到的是你在一个中等收入国家里能看到的
02:41
that you can see in any middle-income country in the world:
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最萧条，最阴郁的景象
02:45
a dismal, depressing landscape
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放眼望去，房屋要么被烧毁
02:48
of burnt and half-abandoned buildings.
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要么基本为半废弃状态
02:51
And this has been true for 30 years, and the handover
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这样的状况已经持续了30年
02:55
in 1979, 1980, between one Jamaican leader who was
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1979,1980年的权力交接时期
02:59
the son of a Rhodes Scholar and a Q.C. to another
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领导人从一个罗德奖学金获得者和一个皇室法律顾问的儿子
03:02
who'd done an economics doctorate at Harvard,
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变成一个哈佛经济学博士
03:05
over 800 people were killed in the streets
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但那时大街上因滥用毒品引发的暴力
03:08
in drug-related violence.
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而被杀死的人有800人之多
03:12
Ten years ago, however, the promise of democracy
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10年前，我们都认为
03:16
seemed to be extraordinary. George W. Bush stood up
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民主的前景会越来越乐观
03:19
in his State of the Union address in 2003
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乔治.W.布什2003年在演讲时说
03:23
and said that democracy was the force that would beat
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民主是能够治愈
03:27
most of the ills of the world. He said,
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世界上大部分问题的良药
03:30
because democratic governments respect their own people
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因为民主的政府尊重他的人民
03:33
and respect their neighbors, freedom will bring peace.
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尊重他的邻邦，自由可以带来和平
03:39
Distinguished academics at the same time argued that
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学者们那时候也认为
03:43
democracies had this incredible range of side benefits.
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民主可以在很多方面都带来有益的帮助
03:47
They would bring prosperity, security,
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他们认为民主可以带来繁荣，安定
03:50
overcome sectarian violence,
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消除宗派主义产生的暴力
03:53
ensure that states would never again harbor terrorists.
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使一个国家再也不用担心恐怖主义的威胁
03:57
Since then, what's happened?
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可在那以后情况又是怎样呢？
03:59
Well, what we've seen is the creation, in places like Iraq
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我们能看到的是，在伊拉克和阿富汗
04:03
and Afghanistan, of democratic systems of government
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成立了民主政府
04:07
which haven't had any of those side benefits.
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但是却没有得到上述的一点好处
04:10
In Afghanistan, for example, we haven't just had one election
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举例来说，在阿富汗，我们不仅仅举行了一次两次选举
04:13
or two elections. We've gone through three elections,
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我们整整选举了三次
04:15
presidential and parliamentary. And what do we find?
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有总统选举，也有议会选举。结果是怎样的呢？
04:18
Do we find a flourishing civil society, a vigorous rule of law
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我们是不是就此建立了一个繁荣昌盛，守法有序
04:22
and good security? No. What we find in Afghanistan
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和平安定的民主社会了呢？
不是。我们在阿富汗看到的是
不是。我们在阿富汗看到的是
04:25
is a judiciary that is weak and corrupt,
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法律体系脆弱而腐朽
04:30
a very limited civil society which is largely ineffective,
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社会秩序杂乱无章
04:34
a media which is beginning to get onto its feet
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媒体才刚刚开始起步
04:37
but a government that's deeply unpopular,
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但政府却失去了公信力
04:40
perceived as being deeply corrupt, and security
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被人民认为是腐败的政权
04:43
that is shocking, security that's terrible.
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社会治安更是糟糕
04:47
In Pakistan, in lots of sub-Saharan Africa,
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在巴基斯坦，还有很多撒哈拉以南的非洲国家
04:52
again you can see democracy and elections are compatible
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你也可以看到一些采用选举系统的民主政权
04:55
with corrupt governments, with states that are unstable
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仍旧腐朽不堪
04:59
and dangerous.
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国家仍处在不安定和危险之中
05:01
And when I have conversations with people, I remember
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当我和那里的人们交谈的时候
05:04
having a conversation, for example, in Iraq,
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我记得我有次在伊拉克
05:07
with a community that asked me
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有人问我
05:09
whether the riot we were seeing in front of us,
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我们现在眼前所见到的这些暴乱
05:13
this was a huge mob ransacking a provincial council building,
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那时我们眼前是一大群暴徒洗劫省政府大楼的情景
05:17
was a sign of the new democracy.
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是否是新的民主政权的标志？
05:21
The same, I felt, was true in almost every single one
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我感到，在我去过的每一个发展中国家
05:26
of the middle and developing countries that I went to,
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甚至于在我们自己的国家
05:28
and to some extent the same is true of us.
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这样的情况都是存在的
05:33
Well, what is the answer to this? Is the answer to just
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那么，我们到底应该如何来应对这个问题？
05:35
give up on the idea of democracy?
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我们难道应该就此放弃民主吗？
05:38
Well, obviously not. It would be absurd
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显然，答案是否定的
05:41
if we were to engage again in the kind of operations
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如果我们要把伊拉克和阿富汗
05:44
we were engaged in, in Iraq and Afghanistan
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再次变成之前的模样
05:47
if we were to suddenly find ourselves in a situation
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如果我们忽然意识到
05:51
in which we were imposing
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我们所推行的并非一个民主的系统
05:54
anything other than a democratic system.
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而是其他的东西
05:56
Anything else would run contrary to our values,
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其他与我们的价值观，人民的意愿
05:59
it would run contrary to the wishes of the people
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还有我们的利益背道而驰的东西
06:01
on the ground, it would run contrary to our interests.
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那将是非常荒谬的
06:04
I remember in Iraq, for example, that we went through
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我还记得在伊拉克的时候
06:08
a period of feeling that we should delay democracy.
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有一段时间我们觉得也许应该推迟那里的民主进程
06:10
We went through a period of feeling that the lesson learned
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我们觉得波斯尼亚的教训告诉我们
06:13
from Bosnia was that elections held too early
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如果选举进行的太早
06:17
enshrined sectarian violence, enshrined extremist parties,
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反而会助长宗派主义暴力和极端主义党派的发展
06:21
so in Iraq in 2003 the decision was made,
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所以2003年我们在伊拉克做出了一个决定
06:24
let's not have elections for two years. Let's invest in
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那就是在两年内不进行选举
06:27
voter education. Let's invest in democratization.
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而把精力先放在选民教育和民主化上
06:31
The result was that I found stuck outside my office
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结果是，我的办公室门口堵了一大群人
06:35
a huge crowd of people, this is actually a photograph
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这张照片其实是在利比亚拍的
06:37
taken in Libya but I saw the same scene in Iraq
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但是和我在伊拉克看到的情景一模一样
06:41
of people standing outside screaming for the elections,
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人们挤在门外，叫嚷着要求选举
06:45
and when I went out and said, "What is wrong
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我一出去，他们就喊：
06:47
with the interim provincial council?
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“临时省委会怎么了？
06:50
What is wrong with the people that we have chosen?
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我们选出来的人哪里不对了？
06:54
There is a Sunni sheikh, there's a Shiite sheikh,
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“委员会里面有逊尼派的酋长，有什叶派的酋长
06:57
there's the seven -- leaders of the seven major tribes,
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有来自七个主要部落的七大族长
07:00
there's a Christian, there's a Sabian,
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有基督教徒，有赛比教徒
07:03
there are female representatives, there's every political party in this council,
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有妇女代表，有每个党派的代表
07:07
what's wrong with the people that we chose?"
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我们选出来的这些人到底哪里不对了？”
07:09
The answer came, "The problem isn't the people
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我的回答是这样的：
07:12
that you chose. The problem is that you chose them."
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“问题不在于你选出来的人，而在于你选了他们。”
07:18
I have not met, in Afghanistan, in even the most
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在阿富汗，即使是最偏僻的地区
07:22
remote community, anybody who does not want
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我也从来没遇见过一个人
07:25
a say in who governs them.
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说他不想参与决定谁来统治他们
07:28
Most remote community, I have never met a villager
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从来没遇见过一个人
07:30
who does not want a vote.
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说他不想进行投票
07:33
So we need to acknowledge
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所以我们要认识到
07:37
that despite the dubious statistics, despite the fact that
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即使那些真实性有待考究的数据说
07:40
84 percent of people in Britain feel politics is broken,
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84％的英国人认为英国的政治是腐朽的
07:46
despite the fact that when I was in Iraq, we did an opinion poll
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即使当我在伊拉克时，我们做了一个民意调查
07:49
in 2003 and asked people what political systems they preferred,
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那是在03年，我们要求民众选择他们更喜欢的政治体系
07:53
and the answer came back that
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结果是这样的
07:55
seven percent wanted the United States,
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7％想要美国模式
07:58
five percent wanted France,
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5％想要法国模式
08:01
three percent wanted Britain,
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3％想要英国模式
08:04
and nearly 40 percent wanted Dubai, which is, after all,
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却有将近40％选择了迪拜模式
08:08
not a democratic state at all but a relatively prosperous
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阿联酋甚至都不是一个民主国家，而是一个相对繁荣的
08:11
minor monarchy, democracy is a thing of value
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君主制国家。民主是我们应该
08:15
for which we should be fighting. But in order to do so
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为之奋斗的价值观。但首先
08:19
we need to get away from instrumental arguments.
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我们应该避免整天把那些“民主的好处”挂在嘴边
08:22
We need to get away from saying democracy matters
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我们应该避免说：民主很重要
08:25
because of the other things it brings.
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因为它可以带来很多好处
08:29
We need to get away from feeling, in the same way,
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同样的道理，我们应该避免说
08:31
human rights matters because of the other things it brings,
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人权很重要，或者是女性权利很重要
08:34
or women's rights matters for the other things it brings.
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因为它们可以带来很多好处
08:38
Why should we get away from those arguments?
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为什么我们应该避免这样的论点？
08:40
Because they're very dangerous. If we set about saying,
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因为它们的根基是薄弱的
08:43
for example, torture is wrong because it doesn't extract
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举个例子，拷打人是错误的，因为它不能收集到有用的信息
08:47
good information, or we say, you need women's rights
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或者我们说，我们需要妇女权利
08:53
because it stimulates economic growth by doubling the size of the work force,
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因为它可以使劳力翻番，促进经济
08:57
you leave yourself open to the position where
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你就给自己留下了被人击溃的突破口
08:59
the government of North Korea can turn around and say,
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这时候朝鲜政府就可以说
09:01
"Well actually, we're having a lot of success extracting
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“事实上我们现在正是用折磨的手段
09:04
good information with our torture at the moment,"
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获取了很多有用的信息”
09:06
or the government of Saudi Arabia to say, "Well,
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沙特阿拉伯政府也可以说
09:08
our economic growth's okay, thank you very much,
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“谢谢你们的关心，我们的经济还可以
09:10
considerably better than yours,
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比你们可能还要稍微好一点
09:12
so maybe we don't need to go ahead with this program on women's rights."
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所以我们大概用不着搞那些争取妇女权利的运动了
09:16
The point about democracy is not instrumental.
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民主的重要性并不在于它本身的“好处”
09:20
It's not about the things that it brings.
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也不是它可以带来的利益
09:23
The point about democracy is not that it delivers
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民主的重要性在于它体现了
09:25
legitimate, effective, prosperous rule of law.
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法律的正当性，有效性和繁荣发展
09:32
It's not that it guarantees peace with itself or with its neighbors.
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民主并不能保证一个国家及其邻邦的安全
09:36
The point about democracy is intrinsic.
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它的重要性是内在的
09:39
Democracy matters because it reflects an idea of equality
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因为它反映了平等的理念
09:45
and an idea of liberty. It reflects an idea of dignity,
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自由的理念，以及人的尊严
09:49
the dignity of the individual, the idea that each individual
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它体现了每个人都有平等的权利
09:53
should have an equal vote, an equal say,
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来进行投票
09:56
in the formation of their government.
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参与决定谁来组成他们的政府
10:00
But if we're really to make democracy vigorous again,
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但是，如果我们真的想让民主
10:04
if we're ready to revivify it, we need to get involved
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再次复苏，我们需要
10:07
in a new project of the citizens and the politicians.
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公民和政客们的共同努力
10:12
Democracy is not simply a question of structures.
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民主并不仅仅是政权的结构问题
10:16
It is a state of mind. It is an activity.
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它是一种思想状态，也是一种行动
10:20
And part of that activity is honesty.
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而诚实则是这行动中的一部分
10:24
After I speak to you today, I'm going on a radio program
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我今天在这里的演讲结束之后，我要去参加一个
10:28
called "Any Questions," and the thing you will have noticed
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叫做“你问我答”的电台节目，你们也许也发现了
10:30
about politicians on these kinds of radio programs
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参加这类节目的政客们
10:34
is that they never, ever say that they don't know the answer
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永远永远都不会说“我不知道”
10:37
to a question. It doesn't matter what it is.
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不管那是个什么样的问题
10:39
If you ask about child tax credits, the future of the penguins
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你问他儿童税收抵免
10:42
in the south Antarctic, asked to hold forth on whether or not
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问他南极企鹅的未来
10:47
the developments in Chongqing contribute
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问他中国重庆的发展
10:49
to sustainable development in carbon capture,
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是否对碳捕捉的可持续发展有所贡献
10:52
and we will have an answer for you.
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我们都能给你提供答案
10:54
We need to stop that, to stop pretending to be
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但这也是我们现在所需要停止的
10:58
omniscient beings.
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不要再假装自己是无所不知的人
11:00
Politicians also need to learn, occasionally, to say that
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政客们偶尔也需要学会说
11:03
certain things that voters want, certain things that voters
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有些选民们所想要的东西
11:07
have been promised, may be things
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有些我们曾向选民们承诺过的东西
11:11
that we cannot deliver
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其实可能是我们做不到的
11:14
or perhaps that we feel we should not deliver.
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或者我们觉得所不应该做的
11:18
And the second thing we should do is understand
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我们应该做的第二件事是
11:21
the genius of our societies.
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理解这个社会里的天才
11:24
Our societies have never been so educated, have never
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我们的社会从来没有过像现在这样高的教育水平
11:28
been so energized, have never been so healthy,
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从来没有像现在这样健康且充满活力
11:31
have never known so much, cared so much,
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人们从来没有像现在这样知道这么多，关心这么多
11:33
or wanted to do so much, and it is a genius of the local.
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需要这么多，这都是整个社会中智慧的集合
11:39
One of the reasons why we're moving away
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大家看看
11:42
from banqueting halls such as the one in which we stand,
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现在我们所在的宴会大厅
11:46
banqueting halls with extraordinary images on the ceiling
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天花板上是繁复耀眼的壁画
11:50
of kings enthroned,
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描绘着国王登基的情景
11:52
the entire drama played out here on this space,
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在这里上演过各种各样的戏码
11:55
where the King of England had his head lopped off,
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英国国王在这里被砍头
11:58
why we've moved from spaces like this, thrones like that,
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为什么我们从这样的大厅，这样的王座上走出去
12:02
towards the town hall, is we're moving more and more
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走进了现在的市政厅，因为我们开始
12:06
towards the energies of our people, and we need to tap that.
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越来越多地关注我们的人民的力量
12:10
That can mean different things in different countries.
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需要注意的是，这种改变对每个国家来说是不一样的
12:13
In Britain, it could mean looking to the French,
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就英国而言，这可以意味着
12:16
learning from the French,
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向法国学习
12:18
getting directly elected mayors in place
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学习法国公社体系里
12:21
in a French commune system.
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直接选举市长的模式
12:24
In Afghanistan, it could have meant instead of concentrating
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在阿富汗，这可以意味着不再将关注重心全放在
12:27
on the big presidential and parliamentary elections,
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大的总统选举和议会选举上
12:29
we should have done what was in the Afghan constitution
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而是从最基本的开始
12:31
from the very beginning, which is to get direct local elections going
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从当地选民直接选举省长市长开始
12:36
at a district level and elect people's provincial governors.
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一步步推行民主
12:42
But for any of these things to work,
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但是想要这些举措真正生效
12:44
the honesty in language, the local democracy,
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诚实必须被放在第一位
12:47
it's not just a question of what politicians do.
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而这并不仅仅是政客的问题
12:50
It's a question of what the citizens do.
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也是每个公民的问题
12:52
For politicians to be honest, the public needs to allow them to be honest,
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要想政客们变得诚实，公众就应该给他们空间，允许他们变得诚实
12:57
and the media, which mediates between the politicians
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而在政客和公众之间起协调作用的媒体
13:00
and the public, needs to allow those politicians to be honest.
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也应该允许政客们变得诚实
13:04
If local democracy is to flourish, it is about the active
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只有每个公民都享有充分的知情权
13:08
and informed engagement of every citizen.
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并积极地参与到当地民主构建中，民主才能够繁荣发展
13:12
In other words, if democracy is to be rebuilt,
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换句话说，如果我们想要重塑民主
13:16
is to become again vigorous and vibrant,
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想让它变得再次充满活力
13:21
it is necessary not just for the public
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不仅公众需要学会
13:24
to learn to trust their politicians,
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怎样去相信他们的政客
13:27
but for the politicians to learn to trust the public.
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政客们也需要学会怎样去相信他们的民众
13:32
Thank you very much indeed. (Applause)
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非常感谢！（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Rory Stewart - PoliticianRory Stewart -- a perpetual pedestrian, a diplomat, an adventurer and an author -- is the member of British Parliament for Penrith and the Border.
Why you should listen
Now the member of British Parliament for Penrith and the Border, in rural northwest England, Rory Stewart has led a fascinatingly broad life of public service. He joined the Foreign Office after school, then left to begin a years-long series of walks across the Muslim world. In 2002, his extraordinary walk across post-9/11 Afghanistan resulted in his first book, The Places in Between. After the invasion of Iraq in 2003, he served as a Deputy Governorate Co-Ordinator in Southern Iraq for the coalition forces, and later founded a charity in Kabul.
To secure his Conservative seat in Parliament, he went on a walking tour of Penrith, covering the entire county as he talked to voters. In 2008, Esquire called him one of the 75 most influential people of the 21st century.
He says: "The world isn't one way or another. Things can be changed very, very rapidly by someone with sufficient confidence, sufficient knowledge and sufficient authority."
Rory Stewart | Speaker | TED.com