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Margrethe Vestager: The new age of corporate monopolies
瑪格蕾莎維絲塔格: 企業聯合壟斷的新世紀
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瑪格蕾莎維絲塔格想要保持歐洲市場的競爭性──這也是為什麼她會代表歐盟，對Google 處以 28 億元的罰金，理由是違反了反壟斷規則；她也要求蘋果補繳 153 億元稅款，還調查了許多公司的反競爭行為，從俄羅斯天然氣公司到飛雅特都是她的目標。在這場關於全球企業狀況的重要演說中，她解釋了為什麼市場需要透明的規則，以及最創新的公司如何會因為太佔優勢而變成問題。「真正的、公平的競爭扮演著關鍵的角色，它能協助建立我們需要的信任，讓我們的社會呈現最好的一面，」維絲塔格說：「這一切會從強力執行規則開始。」
Margrethe Vestager - Commissioner for Competition, European Union
Margrethe Vestager is in charge of regulating commercial activity across the European Union and enforcing the EU’s rules designed to keep the markets fair. Full bio
Margrethe Vestager is in charge of regulating commercial activity across the European Union and enforcing the EU’s rules designed to keep the markets fair. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Let's go back to 1957.
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讓我們一起回到 1957 年。
00:18
Representatives
from six European countries
from six European countries
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來自六個歐洲國家的代表
00:22
had come to Rome
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來到了羅馬，
00:24
to sign the treaty that was
to create the European Union.
to create the European Union.
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簽訂了創立歐盟的條約。
00:29
Europe was destroyed.
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歐洲被毀掉了。
00:32
A world war had emerged from Europe.
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世界大戰在歐洲爆發。
00:37
The human suffering was unbelievable
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人類受到的苦難是難以置信的、
00:39
and unprecedented.
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史無前例的。
00:43
Those men
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那些人
00:45
wanted to create a peaceful,
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想要創造一個和平、
00:49
democratic Europe,
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民主的歐洲，
00:52
a Europe that works for its people.
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一個為人民服務的歐洲。
00:55
And one of the many building blocks
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這個和平計畫的
00:58
in that peace project
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許多組成元素之中，
01:00
was a common European market.
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其中一個就是歐洲共同市場。
01:05
Already back then,
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在當時，
01:07
they saw how markets,
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他們就已經明白，
01:09
when left to themselves,
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市場如果被放任不管，
01:11
can sort of slip into being
just the private property
just the private property
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就會造成私人企業的
市場壟斷與聯合壟斷行為。
01:16
of big businesses and cartels,
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01:20
meeting the needs of some businesses
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它們只想滿足某些企業的需求，
01:23
and not the needs of customers.
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而非消費者的需求。
01:27
So from our very first day,
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所以，打從第一天起，
01:30
in 1957,
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在 1957 年，
01:33
the European Union had rules
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歐盟就訂定了一些規則
01:36
to defend fair competition.
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用來保護市場的公平競爭，
01:39
And that means competition on the merits,
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也就是良性競爭，
01:43
that you compete
on the quality of your products,
on the quality of your products,
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你要靠你的產品品質、
01:46
the prices you can offer,
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提供的價格、
01:48
the services, the innovation
that you produce.
that you produce.
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服務、創新來競爭。
01:52
That's competition on the merits.
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這樣才是良性競爭。
01:55
You have a fair chance
of making it on such a market.
of making it on such a market.
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在這樣的市場上，
你才有公平的成功機會。
你才有公平的成功機會。
01:59
And it's my job,
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而身為歐盟
02:01
as Commissioner for Competition,
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競爭委員會的委員長，
我的工作是
我的工作是
02:04
to make sure that companies
who do business in Europe
who do business in Europe
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確保在歐洲做生意的公司
02:07
live by those rules.
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能因為這些規則，
可以安心地做生意。
可以安心地做生意。
02:12
But let's take a step back.
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但，讓我們先退一步想想。
02:16
Why do we need rules
on competition at all?
on competition at all?
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為什麼競爭還需要定規則？
02:20
Why not just let businesses compete?
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為什麼不放任企業去競爭就好了？
02:24
Isn't that also the best for us
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如果它們能自由競爭，
02:27
if they compete freely,
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對我們不是最好的嗎？
02:29
since more competition
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畢竟，越多競爭
02:31
drives more quality,
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會帶動更好的品質、
02:34
lower prices, more innovation?
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更低的價格、更多的創新，不是嗎？
02:39
Well, mostly it is.
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嗯，大致上來說是沒錯。
02:43
But the problem is
that sometimes, for businesses,
that sometimes, for businesses,
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問題是，有時候，對企業來說，
02:48
competition can be inconvenient,
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競爭會帶來不方便，
02:55
because competition means
that the race is never over,
that the race is never over,
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因為競爭意味著，
賽跑永遠不會結束，
賽跑永遠不會結束，
02:59
the game is never won.
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永遠沒有比賽贏家。
03:02
No matter how well
you were doing in the past,
you were doing in the past,
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不論你在過去做得多好，
03:05
there's always someone
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總有某個人
03:06
who are out there
wanting to take your place.
wanting to take your place.
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等著要取代你的位置。
03:12
So the temptation to avoid competition
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所以，規避競爭的誘惑
03:15
is powerful.
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是很強大的。
03:18
It's rooted in motives
as old as Adam and Eve:
as old as Adam and Eve:
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它深根在與亞當夏娃
一樣古老的動機裡面：
一樣古老的動機裡面：
03:23
in greed for yet more money,
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這些動機包括：對錢的貪婪、
03:27
in fear of losing
your position in the market
your position in the market
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怕失去在市場上地位的恐懼感、
03:31
and all the benefits it brings.
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還有它帶來的所有利益。
03:35
And when greed and fear
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當貪婪和恐懼
03:38
are linked to power,
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跟權力連結在一起，
03:40
you have a dangerous mix.
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就是一種很危險的組合。
03:44
We see that in political life.
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我們在政治生態中可以看到這點。
03:47
In part of the world,
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在世界的某些地區，
03:49
the mix of greed and fear
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貪婪和恐懼的結合
03:51
means that those who get power
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意味著取得權力的人
03:54
become reluctant to give it back.
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會不願意把權力交回。
04:00
One of the many things
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而民主，
04:02
I like and admire in our democracies
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讓我很喜歡和欣賞的其中一點
04:07
are the norms
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就是規範，
04:09
that make our leaders hand over power
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當投票者要求我們的領袖
把權力交出來時，
把權力交出來時，
04:12
when voters tell them to.
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他們就必須要交出來。
04:16
And competition rules
can do a similar thing in the market,
can do a similar thing in the market,
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在市場上，競爭規則
也有類似的作用，
也有類似的作用，
04:20
making sure that greed and fear
doesn't overcome fairness.
doesn't overcome fairness.
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它能確保貪婪和恐懼不會戰勝公平。
04:27
Because those rules mean
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因為那些規則意味著
04:29
that companies cannot misuse their power
to undermine competition.
to undermine competition.
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公司無法濫用它們的
權力來破壞競爭。
權力來破壞競爭。
04:36
Think for a moment about your car.
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試想你的汽車
04:40
It has thousands of parts,
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有數以千計的零件，
04:44
from the foam that makes the seats
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從做椅子用的泡沫材料，
04:47
to the electrical wiring
to the light bulbs.
to the light bulbs.
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到電力線路，到燈泡都是。
04:51
And for many of those parts,
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很多零件的提供，
04:54
the world's carmakers,
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世界上的汽車製造商
04:55
they are dependent
on only a few suppliers.
on only a few suppliers.
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只能仰賴少數的供應商。
05:01
So it's hardly surprising
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所以，並不意外
05:03
that it is kind of tempting
for those suppliers
for those suppliers
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會有某種誘因
讓那些供應商想要聯合定價。
05:07
to come together and fix prices.
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05:11
But just imagine what that could do
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但，想像一下，這對市場上
05:13
to the final price
of your new car in the market.
of your new car in the market.
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新車的最終價格會有什麼樣的影響。
05:20
Except, it's not imaginary.
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此外，這並非想像出來的。
05:24
The European Commission
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歐盟執行委員會
05:26
has dealt with already
seven different car parts cartels,
seven different car parts cartels,
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已經處理過七件不同的
汽車零件企業聯合壟斷行為，
汽車零件企業聯合壟斷行為，
05:32
and we're still investigating some.
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還有一些案件仍在調查中。
05:36
Here, the Department of Justice
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而這裡的司法部
05:39
are also looking
into the market for car parts,
into the market for car parts,
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也在調查汽車零件的市場，
05:42
and it has called it
the biggest criminal investigation
the biggest criminal investigation
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而司法部說這是它們所進行過
05:46
it has ever pursued.
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最大的犯罪調查。
05:49
But without competition rules,
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但若沒有競爭規則，
05:51
there would be no investigation,
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就不會有調查，
05:54
and there would be nothing
to stop this collusion from happening
to stop this collusion from happening
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就沒有什麼能夠阻止共謀的發生，
05:58
and the prices of your car to go up.
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而你的汽車價格就會上漲。
06:03
Yet it's not only companies
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但，不只是公司
06:05
who can undermine fair competition.
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會破壞競爭。
06:08
Governments can do it, too.
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政府也會。
06:11
And governments do that
when they hand out subsidies
when they hand out subsidies
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政府分發補助金給
少數幾個他們喜歡的對象。
06:15
to just the favorite few, the selected.
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06:21
They may do that
when they hand out subsidies --
when they hand out subsidies --
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他們發補助金的行為
就是一種不公平的競爭，
就是一種不公平的競爭，
06:24
and, of course,
all financed by taxpayers --
all financed by taxpayers --
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當然，這些錢全都是由我們
納稅人及公司買單。
06:28
to companies.
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06:30
That may be in the form
of special tax treatments,
of special tax treatments,
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採用的形式可能是
特別的課稅方式，
特別的課稅方式，
06:35
like the tax benefits
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比如稅率優惠，
06:37
that firms like Fiat,
Starbucks and Apple got
Starbucks and Apple got
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像飛雅特、星巴克、蘋果這些
公司，都有從歐洲的一些政府
公司，都有從歐洲的一些政府
06:42
from some governments in Europe.
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得到類似這樣的利益。
06:46
Those subsidies stop companies
from competing on equal terms.
from competing on equal terms.
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那些補助，阻礙了公司之間的公平競爭。
06:51
They can mean that
the companies that succeed,
the companies that succeed,
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也就是說：成功的公司
06:54
well, they are the companies
that got the most subsidy,
that got the most subsidy,
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會拿走大部分的補助款，
06:58
the ones that are the best-connected,
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或是擁有最好關係的公司拿走，
07:00
and not, as it should be,
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而不是，雖然應該
07:02
the companies that serve
consumers the best.
consumers the best.
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是由提供消費者
最佳服務的公司獲得補助。
最佳服務的公司獲得補助。
07:07
So there are times when we need to step in
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所以有時候需要我們介入，
07:10
to make sure that competition
works the way it should.
works the way it should.
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來確保競爭都是依照
應該的方式來運作。
應該的方式來運作。
07:15
By doing that, we help
the market to work fairly,
the market to work fairly,
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透過這麼做，我們能
協助市場公平運作，
協助市場公平運作，
07:19
because competition gives consumers
the power to demand a fair deal.
the power to demand a fair deal.
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因為競爭給予消費者
要求公平交易的權力。
要求公平交易的權力。
07:25
It means that companies know
that if they cannot offer good prices
that if they cannot offer good prices
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那意味著，公司知道如果
它們無法提供好的價格
它們無法提供好的價格
07:30
or the service that's expected,
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或是預期的服務，
07:32
well, the customers
will go somewhere else.
will go somewhere else.
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那麼，消費者就會去找別家公司。
07:38
And that sort of fairness
is more important
is more important
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那種公平性的重要程度，
07:41
than we may sometimes realize.
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比我們所了解的還要高。
07:47
Very few people think
about politics all the time.
about politics all the time.
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很少人會隨時都在想政治。
07:51
Some even skip it at election time.
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有些人甚至在選舉時都不會去投票。
07:55
But we are all in the market.
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但我們都在市場裡。
07:58
Every day, we are in the market.
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每天，我們都在市場裡。
08:02
And we don't want businesses
to agree on prices in the back office.
to agree on prices in the back office.
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我們並不想要企業在背後
對價格上下其手。
對價格上下其手。
08:07
We don't want them
to divide the market between them.
to divide the market between them.
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我們不想要它們彼此間瓜分市場。
08:11
We don't want one big company
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我們不想要一家大公司
08:13
just to shut out competitors
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把其它競爭者擋在門外，
08:16
from ever showing us what they can do.
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讓我們看不見後者能做什麼。
08:20
If that happens,
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如果那種情況發生了，
08:22
well, obviously, we feel
that someone has cheated us,
that someone has cheated us,
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很明顯地，我們會覺得
有人欺騙了我們，
有人欺騙了我們，
08:26
that we are being ignored
or taken for granted by the market.
or taken for granted by the market.
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我們被忽視了、或是被市場予取予求。
08:31
And that may undermine
not only our trust in the market
not only our trust in the market
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那可能會破壞我們對市場的信任、
08:35
but also our trust in the society.
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也會破壞我們對社會的信任。
08:39
In a recent survey,
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在一項近期的調查中，
08:41
more than two-thirds of Europeans
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超過三分之二的歐洲人
08:44
said that they had felt
the effects of lack of competition:
the effects of lack of competition:
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說他們感受到了
缺乏競爭所造成的效應：
缺乏競爭所造成的效應：
08:49
that the price
for electricity was too high,
for electricity was too high,
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電價太貴，
08:53
that the price for the medicines
they needed was too high,
they needed was too high,
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他們所需之藥品的價格太高，
08:57
that they had no real choice
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他們沒有辦法選擇
08:59
if they wanted to travel
by bus or by plane,
by bus or by plane,
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要坐巴士或是飛機旅行，
09:02
or they got poor service
from their internet provider.
from their internet provider.
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或是網際網路提供者
提供給他們的服務很糟。
提供給他們的服務很糟。
09:06
In short, they found that the market
didn't treat them fairly.
didn't treat them fairly.
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簡言之，他們發現，
市場並沒有公平對待他們。
市場並沒有公平對待他們。
09:11
And that might seem
like very small things,
like very small things,
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那可能看起來只是件小事，
09:16
but they can give you this sense
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但這些小事會讓你覺得
09:19
that the world isn't really fair.
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世界其實並不公平。
09:23
And they see the market,
which was supposed to serve everyone,
which was supposed to serve everyone,
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市場本來應該是要服務
每個人的，但他們卻看到市場
每個人的，但他們卻看到市場
09:28
become more like the private property
of a few powerful companies.
of a few powerful companies.
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變成更像是少數
強大公司的私人財產。
強大公司的私人財產。
09:35
The market is not the society.
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市場並不是社會。
09:38
Our societies are, of course,
much, much more than the market.
much, much more than the market.
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當然，我們的社會遠遠超過市場。
09:43
But lack of trust in the market
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但缺乏對市場的信任，
09:46
can rub off on society
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可能會對社會產生影響，
09:49
so we lose trust in our society as well.
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所以我們也會失去對社會的信任。
09:55
And it may be the most important
thing we have, trust.
thing we have, trust.
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而我們所擁有的東西當中，
最重要的可能就是信任。
最重要的可能就是信任。
10:01
We can trust each other
if we are treated as equals.
if we are treated as equals.
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如果我們被平等對待，
我們就能信任彼此。
我們就能信任彼此。
10:08
If we are all to have the same chances,
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如果我們都有同樣的機會，
10:12
well, we all have to follow
the same fundamental rules.
the same fundamental rules.
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我們都得要遵循同樣的根本規則，
10:17
Of course, some people and some businesses
are more successful than others,
are more successful than others,
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當然，有些人或企業比
其他人或企業更成功，
其他人或企業更成功，
10:23
but we do not trust in a society
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但如果獎品在比賽開始之前
10:26
if the prizes are handed out
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就已經先給出去的話，
10:28
even before the contest begins.
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我們是不可能會相信這個社會的。
10:33
And this is where
competition rules come in,
competition rules come in,
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這就是需要競爭規則的原因了，
10:37
because when we make sure
that markets work fairly,
that markets work fairly,
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因為當我們能確保市場公平運作，
10:40
then businesses compete on the merits,
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那麼企業之間就能良性競爭，
10:43
and that helps to build the trust
that we need as citizens
that we need as citizens
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那就能夠協助建立信任，
我們公民需要這種信任
我們公民需要這種信任
10:49
to feel comfortable and in control,
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才能感到到社會是舒服且有秩序的，
10:52
and the trust that allows
our society to work.
our society to work.
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這種信任也會讓
我們的社會能夠運作。
我們的社會能夠運作。
10:58
Because without trust,
everything becomes harder.
everything becomes harder.
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因為，若沒有信任，
一切都會變得比較困難。
一切都會變得比較困難。
11:02
Just to live our daily lives,
we need to trust in strangers,
we need to trust in strangers,
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光是日常生活，
我們就需要信任陌生人，
我們就需要信任陌生人，
11:07
to trust the banks who keep our money,
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信任我們存款的銀行，
11:10
the builders who build our home,
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信任建造我們房子的建商，
11:14
the electrician
who comes to fix the wiring,
who comes to fix the wiring,
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信任來家裡修電路的電工，
11:17
the doctor who treats us when we're ill,
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信任我們生病時治療我們的醫生，
11:19
not to mention
the other drivers on the road,
the other drivers on the road,
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更不用說信任路上的其他駕駛人，
11:22
and everyone knows that they are crazy.
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人人都知道他們是很瘋狂的。
11:26
And yet, we have to trust them
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但，我們得要信任他們，
11:29
to do the right thing.
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信任他們會做對的事。
11:32
And the thing is
that the more our societies grow,
that the more our societies grow,
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重點是，我們的社會越是成長，
11:36
the more important trust becomes
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信任就變得越重要，
11:39
and the harder it is to build.
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但也越難去建立信任。
11:43
And that is a paradox of modern societies.
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那就是現代社會的矛盾。
11:48
And this is especially true
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當科技改變了我們互動的方式時，
11:51
when technology changes
the way that we interact.
the way that we interact.
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這點就更是重要。
11:55
Of course, to some degree,
technology can help us
technology can help us
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當然，某種程度上，
科技可以協助我們，
科技可以協助我們，
11:58
to build trust in one another
with ratings systems and other systems
with ratings systems and other systems
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用實現共享經濟的
評分系統和其它系統
評分系統和其它系統
12:02
that enable the sharing economy.
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2040
來建立彼此的信任。
12:06
But technology also creates
completely new challenges
completely new challenges
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3776
但科技也創造出全新的挑戰，
12:10
when they ask us
not to trust in other people
not to trust in other people
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科技要求我們不要信任其他人，
12:14
but to trust in algorithms and computers.
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而要信任演算法和電腦。
12:19
Of course, we all see
and share and appreciate
and share and appreciate
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3856
當然，我們都能看見、共享、感激
12:23
all the good that
new technology can do us.
new technology can do us.
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新科技帶給我們的所有好處。
12:27
It's a lot of good.
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1360
好處有很多。
12:30
Autonomous cars can give people
with disabilities new independence.
with disabilities new independence.
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5136
自動駕駛汽車能讓殘疾者
有新的獨立性。
有新的獨立性。
12:35
It can save us all time,
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1416
科技能幫我們省下時間，
12:36
and it can make a much, much
better use of resources.
better use of resources.
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科技能把資源做更好更多的利用。
12:41
Algorithms that rely on crunching
enormous amounts of data
enormous amounts of data
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4936
用來分析大量資料的演算法
12:46
can enable our doctors
to give us a much better treatment,
to give us a much better treatment,
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4056
讓我們的醫生能夠
給予我們更好的治療，
給予我們更好的治療，
12:50
and many other things.
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還有很多其它的好處。
12:54
But no one is going
to hand over their medical data
to hand over their medical data
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4080
但沒有人會把他們的
醫療資料交出來，
醫療資料交出來，
12:59
or step into a car
that's driven by an algorithm
that's driven by an algorithm
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也沒有人會坐上一台
由演算法來駕駛的汽車，
由演算法來駕駛的汽車，
13:03
unless they trust the companies
that they are dealing with.
that they are dealing with.
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3560
除非他們信任與
他們打交道的公司。
他們打交道的公司。
13:09
And that trust isn't always there.
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但那種信任並不是一直都存在的。
13:13
Today, for example,
less than a quarter of Europeans
less than a quarter of Europeans
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4176
比如，現今，不到四分之一的歐洲人
13:17
trust online businesses
to protect their personal information.
to protect their personal information.
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785440
4640
信任線上企業會
保護他們的個人資訊。
保護他們的個人資訊。
13:24
But what if people knew
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1600
但如果人們知道
13:27
that they could rely
on technology companies
on technology companies
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他們能夠信賴科技公司
13:30
to treat them fairly?
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會公平對待他們呢？
13:34
What if they knew that those companies
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如果他們知道那些公司
13:36
respond to competition
by trying to do better,
by trying to do better,
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3600
面對競爭的因應方式
是把產品做得更好、
是把產品做得更好、
13:41
by trying to serve consumers better,
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提供消費者更好的服務，
13:45
not by using their power
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2336
而不是用它們的權力
13:47
to shut out competitors,
217
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2376
來阻擋競爭者，
13:49
say, by pushing their services
218
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2376
比如，把它們的服務
13:52
far, far down the list of search results
219
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3736
推到搜尋結果列表的最最最下端，
13:56
and promoting themselves?
220
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1760
然後只促銷它們自己的？
13:59
What if they knew
that compliance with the rules
that compliance with the rules
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4256
如果他們知道，
在設計這些演算法的時候
在設計這些演算法的時候
14:04
was built into the algorithms by design,
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就有把對於這些規則
的遵循給內建進去，
的遵循給內建進去，
14:09
that the algorithm had to go
to competition rules school
to competition rules school
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讓那些演算法必須要先
進入競爭規則學校學習，
進入競爭規則學校學習，
14:12
before they were ever allowed to work,
224
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然後才可以被允許開始運作，
14:16
that those algorithms were designed
225
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2736
且這些演算法被設計成
14:18
in a way that meant
that they couldn't collude,
that they couldn't collude,
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3616
沒有辦法共謀，
14:22
that they couldn't form
their own little cartel
their own little cartel
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3016
讓它們無法在它們運作的黑盒子中形成
14:25
in the black box they're working in?
228
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小型的聯合壟斷行為，那會如何？
14:29
Together with regulation,
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加上了規範，
14:32
competition rules can do that.
230
860280
1960
競爭規則就能做到那樣。
14:35
They can help us to make sure
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它們能協助我們確保
14:37
that new technology treats people fairly
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3480
新科技會公平待人，
14:41
and that everyone can compete
on a level playing field.
on a level playing field.
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讓每個人都可以在
市場上公平競爭。
市場上公平競爭。
14:46
And that can help us build the trust
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3256
那就能協助我們建立信任，
14:50
that we need for real innovation
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2416
我們需要信任才能做真正的創新，
14:52
to flourish
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才能興旺繁榮，
14:53
and for societies to develop for citizens.
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3600
社會才能進步、人民才能受惠。
14:59
Because trust cannot be imposed.
238
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因為信任不是能夠強加於人的。
15:03
It has to be earned.
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信任是掙來的。
15:06
Since the very first days
of the European Union,
of the European Union,
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3976
自從歐盟的最初時期，
15:10
60 years ago,
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六十年前，
15:12
our competition rules have helped
242
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2936
我們的競爭規則一直在協助
15:15
to build that trust.
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建立那樣的信任。
15:19
A lot of things have changed.
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很多事物都改變了。
15:22
It's hard to say
what those six representatives
what those six representatives
245
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3336
很難說那六位代表
15:25
would have made of a smartphone.
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會怎麼看待智慧型手機。
15:29
But in today's world,
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但在現今的世界上，
15:30
as well as in their world,
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2616
以及在他們的世界上，
15:33
competition makes the market
work for everyone.
work for everyone.
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市場因為競爭讓所有人受益。
15:38
And that is why I am convinced
250
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這就是為什麼我深信，
15:40
that real and fair competition
251
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真正的、公平的競爭
15:43
has a vital role to play
252
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扮演著關鍵的角色，
15:45
in building the trust we need
253
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2176
它能協助建立我們需要的信任，
15:47
to get the best of our societies,
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3120
來讓我們的社會呈現最好的一面，
15:52
and that starts with enforcing our rules,
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而這一切會從強力執行
我們的規則開始，
我們的規則開始，
15:57
actually just to make
the market work for everyone.
the market work for everyone.
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讓市場能為每個人服務。
16:00
Thank you.
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謝謝。
16:02
(Applause)
258
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（掌聲）
16:07
Bruno Giussani: Thank you.
259
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布魯諾吉尤薩尼：謝謝你。
16:11
Thank you, Commissioner.
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謝謝你，委員長。
16:12
Margrethe Vestager: It was a pleasure.
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1856
瑪格蕾莎維絲塔格：是我的榮幸。
16:14
BG: I want to ask you two questions.
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1736
布魯諾：我有兩個問題想請教。
16:16
The first one is about data,
because I have the impression
because I have the impression
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2736
第一個問題與資料有關，
因為我的印象是
因為我的印象是
16:19
that technology and data are changing
the way competition takes place
the way competition takes place
264
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3416
科技和資料會改變競爭的方式
16:22
and the way competition regulation
is designed and enforced.
is designed and enforced.
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4656
也會改變競爭的設計與執行的方式。
16:27
Can you maybe comment on that?
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1656
你能否對此發表意見？
16:28
MV: Well, yes, it is
definitely challenging us,
definitely challenging us,
267
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3336
瑪格蕾莎：是的，
它的確在挑戰著我們，
它的確在挑戰著我們，
16:32
because we both have to sharpen our tools
268
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3216
因為我們得要磨礪我們的工具，
16:35
but also to develop new tools.
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也要開發新的工具。
16:38
When we were going through
the Google responses
the Google responses
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當我們去探究
Google 對我們提出的異議
Google 對我們提出的異議
16:41
to our statement of objection,
271
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2736
所做的回應，
16:43
we were going through
5.2 terabytes of data.
5.2 terabytes of data.
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我們面對的是 5.2TB 的資料量。
16:49
It's quite a lot.
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1520
這數量很驚人。
16:51
So we had to set up new systems.
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3296
所以我們得要建立新的系統。
16:54
We had to figure out how to do this,
275
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2616
我們得要想出如何做，
16:57
because you cannot work
the way you did just a few years ago.
the way you did just a few years ago.
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4096
因為幾年前的方法已經行不通了。
17:01
So we are definitely
sharpening up our working methods.
sharpening up our working methods.
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3880
所以我們肯定得
精進我們的作業方法。
精進我們的作業方法。
17:05
The other thing is
that we try to distinguish
that we try to distinguish
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另外一件事是，我們嘗試著
17:08
between different kinds of data,
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1696
區別出不同類型的資料，
17:09
because some data is extremely valuable
280
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2576
因為有些資料是極度珍貴的，
17:12
and they will form, like,
a barrier to entry in a market.
a barrier to entry in a market.
281
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3256
而它們會形成進入市場的障礙。
17:15
Other things you can just --
it loses its value tomorrow.
it loses its value tomorrow.
282
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4040
其它事情你可以直接……
它明天就失去價值了。
它明天就失去價值了。
17:20
So we try to make sure
283
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1536
所以我們試圖要確保
17:22
that we never, ever underestimate the fact
284
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3457
我們永遠不會低估資料在市場中
17:25
that data works
as a currency in the market
as a currency in the market
285
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3977
以一種貨幣形式來運作的事實，
17:29
and as an asset that can be
a real barrier for competition.
a real barrier for competition.
286
1037599
5041
且資料也是種會
真正阻礙競爭的資產。
真正阻礙競爭的資產。
17:35
BG: Google. You fined them
2.8 billion euros a few months ago.
2.8 billion euros a few months ago.
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4536
布魯諾：幾個月前，
你們對 Google 開罰 28 億歐元。
你們對 Google 開罰 28 億歐元。
17:40
MV: No, that was dollars.
It's not so strong these days.
It's not so strong these days.
288
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2657
瑪格蕾莎：不，是美元。
現在它已經不那麼強勢了。
現在它已經不那麼強勢了。
17:42
BG: Ah, well, depends on the --
289
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1496
布魯諾：啊，嗯，那就要看…
17:44
(Laughter)
290
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1016
（笑聲）
17:45
Google appealed the case.
The case is going to court.
The case is going to court.
291
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2496
Google 對這案子提出上訴，
接下來會上法庭。
接下來會上法庭。
17:47
It will last a while.
292
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1560
它會持續一段時間。
17:50
Earlier, last year, you asked Apple
to pay 13 billion in back taxes,
to pay 13 billion in back taxes,
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4736
先前，去年，你要求蘋果
補繳 130 億元的稅款，
補繳 130 億元的稅款，
17:55
and you have also
investigated other companies,
investigated other companies,
294
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3136
你也調查了其它公司，
17:58
including European and Russian companies,
295
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2056
包括歐洲和俄國公司，
18:00
not only American companies, by far.
296
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2096
顯然不只是美國公司。
18:02
Yet the investigations
against the American companies
against the American companies
297
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4296
但，針對美國公司的調查
18:06
are the ones that have attracted
the most attention
the most attention
298
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2416
是最吸引注意力的調查，
18:09
and they have also attracted
some accusations.
some accusations.
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也是吸引最多控訴的調查。
18:12
You have been accused, essentially,
of protectionism, of jealousy,
of protectionism, of jealousy,
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你曾被指控，基本上，
是個保護主義者、善妒忌、
是個保護主義者、善妒忌、
18:15
or using legislation
to hit back at American companies
to hit back at American companies
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或是立法來打擊那些
18:18
that have conquered European markets.
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征服歐洲市場的美國公司。
18:20
"The Economist" just this week
on the front page writes,
on the front page writes,
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《經濟人》這週的頭版寫著：
18:24
"Vestager Versus The Valley."
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「維絲塔格摃上矽谷」。
18:25
How do you react to that?
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妳的回應是什麼？
18:28
MV: Well, first of all,
I take it very seriously,
I take it very seriously,
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瑪格蕾莎：首先，
我很嚴肅看待此事，
我很嚴肅看待此事，
18:31
because bias has no room
in law enforcement.
in law enforcement.
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因為在執法上是不容許偏見的。
18:38
We have to prove our cases
with the evidence and the facts
with the evidence and the facts
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我們必須要用證據、事實、法庭判例
18:41
and the jurisprudence
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來證明我們的案件，
18:43
in order also to present it to the courts.
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才能夠在法庭上提出來。
18:46
The second thing is
that Europe is open for business,
that Europe is open for business,
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第二點，歐洲是
開放給大家做生意的，
開放給大家做生意的，
18:50
but not for tax evasion.
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但不是給大家逃稅用的。
18:52
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
18:58
The thing is that we are changing,
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重點是，我們在改變，
19:02
and for instance,
when I ask my daughters --
when I ask my daughters --
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比如，當我問我的女兒們──
19:04
they use Google as well --
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她們也用 Google──
19:06
"Why do you do that?"
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「妳們為什麼要用 Google ？」
19:07
They say, "Well, because it works.
It's a very good product."
It's a very good product."
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她們說：「因為它好用。
它是很好的產品。」
它是很好的產品。」
19:10
They would never, ever,
come up with the answer,
come up with the answer,
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她們永遠不會回答說：
19:13
"It's because it's a US product."
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「因為它是美國產品。」
19:15
It's just because it works.
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只是因為它好用。
19:17
And that is of course how it should be.
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當然，也應該要這樣才對。
19:19
But just the same, it is important
that someone is looking after to say,
that someone is looking after to say,
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但，同樣重要的是，
會有監管的人說：
會有監管的人說：
19:23
"Well, we congratulate you
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「嗯，我們恭喜你，
19:25
while you grow and grow and grow,
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恭喜你不斷成長再成長。
19:28
but congratulation stops
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但我們會停止恭喜，
19:30
if we find that you're
misusing your position
misusing your position
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如果發現了你濫用優勢
19:34
to harm competitors
so that they cannot serve consumers."
so that they cannot serve consumers."
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去傷害競爭者，
讓他們無法服務消費者。」
19:38
BG: It will be
a fascinating case to follow.
a fascinating case to follow.
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布魯諾：這個案件很值得追蹤後續。
19:40
Thank you for coming to TED.
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謝謝你來 TED。
19:41
MV: It was a pleasure. Thanks a lot.
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瑪格蕾莎：是我的榮幸。非常謝謝。
19:43
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Margrethe Vestager - Commissioner for Competition, European UnionMargrethe Vestager is in charge of regulating commercial activity across the European Union and enforcing the EU’s rules designed to keep the markets fair.
Why you should listen
Margrethe Vestager has been described as "the most powerful woman in Brussels" -- otherwise said, in European politics. As Commissioner for Competition for the European Union, Vestager is in charge of regulating commercial activity across the 28 member states and enforcing the EU's rules designed to keep the markets fair -- rules that, she believes, some big companies have been abusing. In 2016, Vestager ordered Apple to pay €13 bn (about US$15.3 bn) in back taxes. In June 2017, she fined Google €2.4 bn (US$2.8 bn) for manipulating search results in favor of its own services. Other antitrust cases are open against Google. Facebook, Amazon, Russian natural gas producer Gazprom, Italian carmaker Fiat and others are also on her radar screen.
Born in Denmark, Vestager held various ministerial posts in her country's government before being appointed to the European Commission in 2014. Her politics are liberal in the classic meaning of the term: free speech, free assembly and free trade -- but she argues that it can only happen if markets are free of undue influence and anti-competitive behaviors.
Margrethe Vestager | Speaker | TED.com