ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Mariana Mazzucato - Innovation economist
Which actor in the economy is most responsible for making radical innovation happen? Mariana Mazzucato comes up with a surprising answer: the state.

Why you should listen

States and governments are often depicted as slow, bureaucratic, risk-averse. That argument is used in support of making states smaller and the private sector bigger. In her latest book, The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Private vs. Public Myths in Innovation and in her research, Mariana Mazzucato offers a bold contrarian view: States aren't only market regulators and fixers, but "market makers" -- actively creating a vision for innovation and investing in risky and uncertain areas where private capital may not see the ROI. Yes: Private venture capital is much less risk-taking than generally thought. As an example, the technology behind the iPhone and Google exists because the U.S. government has been very interventionist in funding innovation. Private investors jumped in only later. The same is true today of what promises to be the next big thing after the Internet: the green revolution.

Mazzucato, a professor of economics at the Science and Technology Policy Research Unit (SPRU, University of Sussex), argues that Europe needs today to rediscover that role -- that what the continent needs is not austerity but strategic investments (and new instruments such as public investments banks) towards an "innovation Union."

More profile about the speaker
Mariana Mazzucato | Speaker | TED.com
TEDGlobal 2013

Mariana Mazzucato: Government -- investor, risk-taker, innovator

瑪利亞娜·馬祖卡托: 政府-投資者、冒險家、創新家

Filmed:
946,214 views

為什麼政府不讓私有公司-那些「真正的創新家」去創新?這是你經常會聽到的話。馬里亞納·馬祖卡托 (Mariana Mazzucato) 要反駁這樣的話。在這個激情四溢的演講裡,她告訴我們美國政府-一個看似緩慢、守舊的龐然大物-是如何成為最令人振奮的冒險者和市場塑造者的。
- Innovation economist
Which actor in the economy is most responsible for making radical innovation happen? Mariana Mazzucato comes up with a surprising answer: the state. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
Have you ever asked yourselves你自己 why it is that
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在座的各位有沒有問過自己, 為什麼那些
00:15
companies公司, the really cool companies公司,
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很酷的公司,
00:17
the innovative創新 ones那些, the creative創作的,
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那些有創意、懂創新的
00:18
new economy-type經濟型 companies公司 --
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新經濟型的公司 — —
00:20
Apple蘋果, Google谷歌, FacebookFacebook的 --
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蘋果、 谷歌、臉書— —
00:23
are coming未來 out of one particular特定 country國家,
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都來自同一個國家
00:26
the United聯合的 States狀態 of America美國?
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美國呢?
00:28
Usually平時 when I say this, someone有人 says, "SpotifySpotify的!
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通常當我談到這一點時,有人會說,
00:30
That's Europe歐洲." But, yeah.
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"Spotify!那是歐洲的公司。”
(註:Spotify是瑞典起源的線上音樂平台)
00:31
It has not had the impact碰撞 that these other companies公司 have had.
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但,不如剛才的那幾個公司有影響力
00:35
Now what I do is I'm an economist經濟學家,
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我是一名經濟學家,
00:37
and I actually其實 study研究 the relationship關係
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我所研究的是
00:38
between之間 innovation革新 and economic經濟 growth發展
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在公司、 業界和國家層面上
00:40
at the level水平 of the company公司, the industry行業 and the nation國家,
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創新和經濟增長之間的關係。
00:43
and I work with policymakers政策制定者 worldwide全世界,
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我與各國的政策制定者合作,
00:45
especially特別 in the European歐洲的 Commission佣金,
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特別是歐盟委員會,
00:47
but recently最近 also in interesting有趣 places地方 like China中國,
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最近是在有趣的地方,如中國
00:50
and I can tell you that that question
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我可以告訴你,我一開始問的那一問題
00:52
is on the tip小費 of all of their tongues舌頭:
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他們也都同樣問過
00:55
Where are the European歐洲的 Googles谷歌?
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歐洲的谷歌在哪裡?
00:57
What is the secret秘密 behind背後 the Silicon Valley growth發展 model模型,
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矽谷經濟模型的秘密是什麼?
01:01
which哪一個 they understand理解 is different不同
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他們的做法和
01:03
from this old economy經濟 growth發展 model模型?
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舊的經濟模型有何不同?
01:06
And what is interesting有趣 is that often經常,
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有趣的是,
01:08
even if we're in the 21stST century世紀,
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即使我們現在處於 21 世紀,
01:10
we kind of come down in the end結束 to these ideas思路
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我們多少會得出
01:12
of market市場 versus state.
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市場和政府相對抗的思維。
01:14
It's talked about in these modern現代 ways方法,
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這被認為是現代(市場運作)方式。
01:16
but the idea理念 is that somehow不知何故, behind背後 places地方 like Silicon Valley,
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然而像矽谷的地方,
01:20
the secret秘密 have been different不同 types類型 of market-making做市商 mechanisms機制,
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秘密反而是不同的市場開拓機制。
01:24
the private私人的 initiative倡議, whether是否 this be about
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私人融資,不管這個是否
01:27
a dynamic動態 venture冒險 capital首都 sector扇形
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關於動態風險投資範疇,
01:29
that's actually其實 able能夠 to provide提供 that high-risk高風險 finance金融
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實際上這些創新型公司
01:32
to these innovative創新 companies公司,
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都能夠得到高風險融資。
01:33
the gazelles瞪羚 as we often經常 call them,
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被稱為「羚羊企業」的這些領軍公司所需要的融資
01:35
which哪一個 traditional傳統 banks銀行 are scared害怕 of,
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是那些傳統銀行所害怕接手的。
01:37
or different不同 types類型 of really successful成功
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另外,不同類型的一些頗有成效的
01:39
commercialization商業化 policies政策 which哪一個 actually其實 allow允許 these companies公司
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商業化政策實際上允許這些公司
01:42
to bring帶來 these great inventions發明, their products製品,
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把他們絕妙的發明、他們的產品
01:45
to the market市場 and actually其實 get over this
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直接推向市場,實際上得以
01:47
really scary害怕 Death死亡 Valley period
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安然度過可怕的「死亡谷」時期。
01:49
in which哪一個 many許多 companies公司 instead代替 fail失敗.
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其他的很多公司卻在這個時期一敗塗地。
01:52
But what really interests利益 me, especially特別 nowadays如今
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特別是現在,
01:54
and because of what's happening事件 politically政治上 around the world世界,
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源於世界上的政治動向,
01:57
is the language語言 that's used, the narrative敘述,
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真正讓我感興趣的是
(商業中)使用的語言、敘述方法、
02:01
the discourse演講, the images圖片, the actual實際 words.
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話語、 圖像和實際使用的詞彙。
02:04
So we often經常 are presented呈現
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所以我們常常聽到
02:06
with the kind of words like that the private私人的 sector扇形
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諸如私營部門之類的詞彙
02:09
is also much more innovative創新 because it's able能夠 to
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都是更有新意的,因為它能
02:11
think out of the box.
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跳出慣常的思維,
02:13
They are more dynamic動態.
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更具有活力。
02:15
Think of Steve史蒂夫 Jobs'工作' really inspirational勵志 speech言語
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回想史蒂夫 · 賈伯斯
02:18
to the 2005 graduating畢業 class at Stanford斯坦福,
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於2005年在史丹佛大學給畢業生做的演講。
02:21
where he said to be innovative創新,
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他當時說: 要有創新精神,
02:23
you've got to stay hungry飢餓, stay foolish.
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求知若飢,虛心若愚。
02:26
Right? So these guys are kind of the hungry飢餓
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對吧?這些人都是些如饑似渴、
02:27
and foolish and colorful華美 guys, right?
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懵懵懂懂又個性鮮明的傢伙,對吧?
02:30
And in places地方 like Europe歐洲,
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在像歐洲這樣的地方
02:31
it might威力 be more equitable公平,
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社會更公平,
02:33
we might威力 even be a bit better dressed連衣裙的
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甚至比美國人穿得更講究,
02:35
and eat better than the U.S.,
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吃得更好。
02:37
but the problem問題 is this damn該死的 public上市 sector扇形.
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但問題是討厭的公共部門。
02:41
It's a bit too big, and it hasn't有沒有 actually其實 allowed允許
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它們太龐大了,它實際上沒法讓
02:45
these things like dynamic動態 venture冒險 capital首都
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像動態風險資本
02:48
and commercialization商業化 to actually其實 be able能夠 to really
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和商業化這樣能夠結出
02:50
be as fruitful卓有成效 as it could.
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商業碩果的事物存在。
02:52
And even really respectable可敬 newspapers報紙,
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即使那些很受人推崇的報紙,
02:54
some that I'm actually其實 subscribed認購 to,
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有些我也有訂閱,
02:56
the words they use are, you know,
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你知道的,他們把
02:58
the state as this Leviathan利維坦. Right?
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美國形容成「利維坦大怪獸」。對吧?
(譯註:利維坦是聖經中的一種獸)
03:01
This monster怪物 with big tentacles觸手.
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有著巨大觸角的怪獸。
03:03
They're very explicit明確的 in these editorials社論.
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他們在社論裡非常明確地這樣說。
03:05
They say, "You know, the state, it's necessary必要
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他們說,"你知道,美國有必要
03:08
to fix固定 these little market市場 failures故障
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去修復這些小小的市場失靈。
03:10
when you have public上市 goods產品
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當你擁有公共物資
03:11
or different不同 types類型 of negative externalities外部性 like pollution污染,
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或那些負面的外部因素比如污染時。
03:14
but you know what, what is the next下一個 big revolution革命
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你知道嗎,在資訊網絡之後
03:17
going to be after the Internet互聯網?
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下一次的大革命是什麼嗎?
03:19
We all hope希望 it might威力 be something green綠色,
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我們都希望它可能是一場綠色的革命。
03:21
or all of this nanotech納米技術 stuff東東, and in order訂購 for that stuff東東 to happen發生," they say --
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或者是奈米技術,而要成功達成"
03:25
this was a special特別 issue問題 on the next下一個 industrial產業 revolution革命 --
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這是關於下一次工業革命的特殊議題 —
03:28
they say, "the state, just stick to the basics基本, right?
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他們說,"政府就是要專注於基礎,對吧?
03:30
Fund基金 the infrastructure基礎設施. Fund基金 the schools學校.
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投資於基礎設施和學校建設
03:33
Even fund基金 the basic基本 research研究, because this is
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也投資於基礎科學研究,因為這是
03:35
popularly普遍 recognized認可, in fact事實, as a big public上市 good
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公眾的共識。事實上,私人公司不想為
03:38
which哪一個 private私人的 companies公司 don't want to invest投資 in,
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大型的公共設施投資。
03:40
do that, but you know what?
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這是國家需要做的,你知道嗎?
03:41
Leave離開 the rest休息 to the revolutionaries革命者."
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然後把剩下的(市場)留給革新者。"
03:44
Those colorful華美, out-of-the-box盒子外面 kind of thinkers思想家.
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那些個性鮮明、不拘一格的革新家,
03:47
They're often經常 called garage車庫 tinkerers能工巧匠,
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通常被稱為車庫發明家。
03:49
because some of them actually其實 did some things in garages車庫,
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因為他們中確實有人是在車庫裡工作的,
03:51
even though雖然 that's partly部分地 a myth神話.
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即使這些故事都被傳成神話了。
03:54
And so what I want to do with you in, oh God,
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所以我想和你們講的是,天哪,
03:56
only 10 minutes分鐘,
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只剩10 分鐘了!
03:57
is to really think again this juxtaposition並列,
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(我要講的)是我們要再考量(政府和市場的)並行
04:00
because it actually其實 has massive大規模的, massive大規模的 implications啟示
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因為這種並行有非常非常巨大的影響力,
04:03
beyond innovation革新 policy政策,
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甚至超越了在某些地區
04:04
which哪一個 just happens發生 to be the area
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我合作的決策者
04:06
that I often經常 talk with with policymakers政策制定者.
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的創新政策之上。
04:09
It has huge巨大 implications啟示, even with this whole整個 notion概念
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它有非常巨大的影響,甚至影響到整個國家的決策
04:13
that we have on where, when and why
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我們在何時、何地、為什麼
04:16
we should actually其實 be cutting切割 back on public上市 spending開支
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要削減公共開支
04:19
and different不同 types類型 of public上市 services服務 which哪一個,
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和其他公共服務部門的開支。
04:21
of course課程, as we know, are increasingly日益 being存在
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當然,正是由於這種並行,一些公共服務部門的工作
04:23
outsourced外包 because of this juxtaposition並列.
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已經被更多的外包出去了。
04:25
Right? I mean, the reason原因 that we need to maybe have free自由 schools學校 or charter憲章 schools學校
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對吧?我是說,我們需要有公立學校或特許學校
04:28
is in order訂購 to make them more innovative創新 without being存在 emburdenedemburdened
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通過國民必修課程等重要手法
04:32
by this heavy hand of the state curriculum課程, or something.
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把孩子們培養成為創新型人才。
04:35
So these kind of words are constantly經常,
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所以這些詞彙的出現都是有一致性的,
04:37
these juxtapositions並列 come up everywhere到處,
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不僅與創新政策有關,
04:39
not just with innovation革新 policy政策.
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這種並行簡直無處不在。
04:42
And so to think again,
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所以,再回過頭來想,
04:43
there's no reason原因 that you should believe me,
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你們不需要相信我,
04:46
so just think of some of the smartest最聰明的
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就想想你口袋裡的一些最絕妙的
04:47
revolutionary革命的 things that you have in your pockets口袋
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創新產品吧。
04:50
and do not turn it on, but you might威力 want to take it out, your iPhone蘋果手機.
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不要打開開關喲。你就拿出來看看你的iPhone吧。
04:52
Ask who actually其實 funded資助 the really cool,
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你會問到底是誰給iPhone那些非常酷的
04:55
revolutionary革命的 thinking-out-of-the-box想-外的開箱
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革新性、突破性的
04:57
things in the iPhone蘋果手機.
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技術投資的。
04:59
What actually其實 makes品牌 your phone電話
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到底是什麼讓你的電話
05:01
a smartphone手機, basically基本上, instead代替 of a stupid phone電話?
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基本上成了智慧手機,
而不僅僅是一個粗劣的手機呢?
05:03
So the Internet互聯網, which哪一個 you can surf衝浪 the web捲筒紙
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通過網際網路,你可以在世界上的
05:05
anywhere隨地 you are in the world世界;
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任何地方上網。
05:06
GPS全球定位系統, where you can actually其實 know where you are
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通過GPS,你可以明確地知道
05:09
anywhere隨地 in the world世界;
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自己在世界的某個地方。
05:10
the touchscreen觸摸屏 display顯示, which哪一個 makes品牌 it also
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觸控螢幕,使手機真正變成
05:13
a really easy-to-use使用方便 phone電話 for anybody任何人.
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任何人都可以輕鬆學會使用的手機。
05:15
These are the very smart聰明, revolutionary革命的 bits about the iPhone蘋果手機,
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iPhone 這些非常巧妙的、革新性的部分
05:19
and they're all government-funded政府資助.
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其實全部都是由政府資助的。
05:23
And the point is that the Internet互聯網
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也就是,網際網路是由
05:26
was funded資助 by DARPADARPA, U.S. Department of Defense防禦.
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DARPA 美國國防部資助的。
05:28
GPS全球定位系統 was funded資助 by the military's軍事的 Navstar導航衛星 program程序.
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全球定位系統(GPS)
是由軍方的 Navstar專案出資的。
05:32
Even SiriSiri的 was actually其實 funded資助 by DARPADARPA.
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甚至語音控制功能(Siri)
都實際上是由 DARPA資助的。
05:35
The touchscreen觸摸屏 display顯示 was funded資助
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觸屏顯示是
05:37
by two public上市 grants補助 by the CIA中央情報局 and the NSFNSF
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由兩個國家部門:
中情局(CIA) 和國家科學基金會(NSF)
05:41
to two public上市 university大學 researchers研究人員 at the University大學 of Delaware特拉華.
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資助美公立大學特拉華大學
的兩位科研人員而開發出來的。
05:46
Now, you might威力 be thinking思維, "Well, she's just said
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現在,您會想,"好吧,她只不過是講了好幾遍的
05:48
the word 'defense''防禦' and 'military''軍事' an awful可怕 lot,"
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'國防' 和 '軍事' 什麼的。"
05:50
but what's really interesting有趣 is that this is actually其實 true真正
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有趣的是,這些都是事實。
05:53
in sector扇形 after sector扇形 and department after department.
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就是由國家的一個又一個的部門,
一個又一個的直屬單位來做的。
05:56
So the pharmaceutical製藥 industry行業, which哪一個 I am personally親自
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我個人對製藥業非常感興趣。
05:58
very interested有興趣 in because I've actually其實 had the fortune幸運
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因為我比較幸運地能夠
06:00
to study研究 it in quite相當 some depth深度,
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深入地研究了這一行。
06:02
is wonderful精彩 to be asking this question
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一個很有趣的問題是關於
06:05
about the revolutionary革命的 versus non-revolutionary非革命 bits,
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革新型和非革新型的藥物。
06:07
because each and every一切 medicine醫學 can actually其實 be
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因為每種藥物都實際上可以
06:09
divided分為 up on whether是否 it really is revolutionary革命的 or incremental增加的.
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被分為革新型或者改進型。
06:13
So the new molecular分子 entities實體 with priority優先 rating評分
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有優先等級的新分子藥物
06:16
are the revolutionary革命的 new drugs毒品,
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是革新型藥物。
06:18
whereas the slight輕微 variations變化 of existing現有 drugs毒品 --
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而對原有藥物進行細微改進的—
06:21
Viagra偉哥, different不同 color顏色, different不同 dosage劑量 --
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比如威而鋼,改變藥物顏色、 改變藥物劑量 —
06:23
are the less revolutionary革命的 ones那些.
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這就屬於非革新型藥物了。
06:26
And it turns out that a full充分 75 percent百分
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結果足足 75%的
06:28
of the new molecular分子 entities實體 with priority優先 rating評分
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優先評級的新分子藥物
06:31
are actually其實 funded資助 in boring無聊, KafkianKafkian public上市 sector扇形 labs實驗室.
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都實際上是由,老掉牙的 Kafkian
公共部門實驗室提供資金。
06:36
This doesn't mean that Big Pharma製藥 is not spending開支 on innovation革新.
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這並不意味著大型製藥公司
不把錢花費在創新上。
06:39
They do. They spend on the marketing營銷 part部分.
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他們也這樣做。
他們也往市場行銷這一部分投錢。
06:41
They spend on the D part部分 of R&D.
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他們往 R&D(研究發展) 的 D 部分(發展)投錢。
06:43
They spend an awful可怕 lot on buying購買 back their stock股票,
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他們花費相當多的資金來購回自己的股票,
06:46
which哪一個 is quite相當 problematic問題.
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這是很有問題。
06:48
In fact事實, companies公司 like Pfizer輝瑞公司 and Amgen安進 recently最近
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事實上,輝瑞和安進這樣的大公司
06:50
have spent花費 more money in buying購買 back their shares分享
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最近為了抬高他們的股票價格,
花在購買他們自家股票的資金
06:52
to boost促進 their stock股票 price價錢 than on R&D,
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遠遠超過他們花在研發上的資金。
06:54
but that's a whole整個 different不同 TEDTED Talk which哪一個 one day
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這涉及了一個完全不同的 TED 演講主題,
06:57
I'd be fascinated入迷 to tell you about.
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有一天我會很高興講給你們聽的。
07:00
Now, what's interesting有趣 in all of this
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現在,在所有新研發的例子裡,最有趣的是
07:02
is the state, in all these examples例子,
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美國這個國家,
07:04
was doing so much more than just fixing定影 market市場 failures故障.
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所做的要比單純修復市場失靈多得多。
07:08
It was actually其實 shaping成型 and creating創建 markets市場.
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它實際上是在塑造和創造市場。
07:11
It was funding資金 not only the basic基本 research研究,
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它不僅給基本研究投資,
07:13
which哪一個 again is a typical典型 public上市 good,
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那是典型的公共利益。
07:16
but even the applied應用的 research研究.
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也給了應用研究投資。
07:17
It was even, God forbid禁止, being存在 a venture冒險 capitalist資本家.
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而且天吶,它甚至成了風險資本家。
07:21
So these SBIRSBIR and SDTRSDTR programs程式,
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這些小型企業研發資金專案(SBIR和SDTR)
07:24
which哪一個 give small companies公司 early-stage早期 finance金融
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給小型公司提供早期的財政支援。
07:28
have not only been extremely非常 important重要
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跟私人風險資本來投資比起來,
07:30
compared相比 to private私人的 venture冒險 capital首都,
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對於小企業這是非常非常重要的。
07:32
but also have become成為 increasingly日益 important重要.
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而且變得越來越重要。
07:35
Why? Because, as many許多 of us know,
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為什麼呢?因為,我們很多人都知道,
07:38
V.C. is actually其實 quite相當 short-term短期.
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私人風險投資(V.C.) 實際上是相當短期的行為。
07:40
They want their returns回報 in three to five years年份.
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他們想在三至五年內得到回報。
07:42
Innovation革新 takes a much longer time than that,
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可是創新需要比那更長的時間,
07:45
15 to 20 years年份.
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15 到 20 年。
07:46
And so this whole整個 notion概念 -- I mean, this is the point, right?
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這就是整個的概念 — 這是重點,對吧?
07:49
Who's誰是 actually其實 funding資金 the hard stuff東東?
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誰實際上在給研發難題提供資金?
07:51
Of course課程, it's not just the state.
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當然,不僅僅是政府。
07:53
The private私人的 sector扇形 does a lot.
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私人部門也做了很多。
07:54
But the narrative敘述 that we've我們已經 always been told
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但是事實總是告訴我們
07:56
is the state is important重要 for the basics基本,
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政府對於奠定研發的基礎非常重要。
07:59
but not really providing提供 that sort分類 of high-risk高風險,
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但是它並不是那種高風險的
08:01
revolutionary革命的 thinking思維 out of the box.
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革新性創意本身。
08:04
In all these sectors行業, from funding資金 the Internet互聯網
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所有這些公共部門,他們從資助網際網路
08:06
to doing the spending開支, but also the envisioning構想,
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到負擔期間的花費。他們甚至提供預想階段和
08:09
the strategic戰略 vision視力, for these investments投資,
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戰略設想階段的資金支援。
08:11
it was actually其實 coming未來 within the state.
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這些資金實際上都是來自於政府。
08:13
The nanotechnology納米技術 sector扇形 is actually其實 fascinating迷人
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奈米技術部門很醉心於
08:15
to study研究 this, because the word itself本身, nanotechnology納米技術,
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這項研究,因為奈米技術這個詞彙本身
08:18
came來了 from within government政府.
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就是政府部門取的。
08:20
And so there's huge巨大 implications啟示 of this.
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當然它會帶來巨大的影響。
08:23
First of all, of course課程 I'm not someone有人,
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首先,當然我不是那些
08:25
this old-fashioned過時 person, market市場 versus state.
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守舊的認為「市場和政府相對抗」的人。
08:27
What we all know in dynamic動態 capitalism資本主義
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我們對動態資本主義的理解就是
08:29
is that what we actually其實 need are public-private公私 partnerships夥伴關係.
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我們確實需要「公共與私人」這樣的夥伴關係。
08:32
But the point is, by constantly經常 depicting描繪
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但問題是,政府部門通常被描述成
08:35
the state part部分 as necessary必要
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一個必要的存在,
08:37
but actually其實 -- pffffpffff -- a bit boring無聊
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但實際上 (噗) 這有點呆板
08:40
and often經常 a bit dangerous危險 kind of Leviathan利維坦,
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而且是一個會帶來危險的利維坦。
08:43
I think we've我們已經 actually其實 really stunted發育不良 the possibility可能性
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我想我們真的被阻擾
08:46
to build建立 these public-private公私 partnerships夥伴關係
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以一種真正動態的方式
08:47
in a really dynamic動態 way.
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去建立「公共-私人」夥伴關係的可能性。
08:49
Even the words that we often經常 use to justify辯解 the "P" part部分,
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我們經常為 "P" 的部分辯解,公共(public)
08:52
the public上市 part部分 -- well, they're both P's普的 --
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其實,如果說到去風險化,
08:54
with public-private公私 partnerships夥伴關係
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這可是兩個 P
08:56
is in terms條款 of de-risking去冒險.
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公共(public)私人(private)夥伴關係。
08:58
What the public上市 sector扇形 did in all these examples例子
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在我給大家的講的這些例子裡,以及其他更多的領域裡
09:00
I just gave you, and there's many許多 more,
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公共部門的作用
09:02
which哪一個 myself and other colleagues同事 have been looking at,
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是我和其他的同事都很關心的。
09:06
is doing much more than de-risking去冒險.
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公共部門的作用不僅僅是去風險化這一點作用。
09:07
It's kind of been taking服用 on that risk風險. Bring帶來 it on.
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公共部門也在承擔風險,勇往直前。
09:10
It's actually其實 been the one thinking思維 out of the box.
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它實際上也成了創新科技的一部分。
09:13
But also, I'm sure you all have had experience經驗
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但同時,我確定你們都和
09:15
with local本地, regional區域性, national國民 governments政府,
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地方級、 區域級以及國家級的政府打過交道。
09:17
and you're kind of like, "You know what, that KafkianKafkian bureaucrat, I've met會見 him."
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你會說,"你知道吧,我見過那個Kafkian的官僚。“
09:20
That whole整個 juxtaposition並列 thing, it's kind of there.
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整個並行的關係其實一直都有的。
09:24
Well, there's a self-fulfilling自我實現 prophecy預言.
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那麼,有個自我實現的預言
09:26
By talking about the state as kind of irrelevant不相干,
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是在講國家是不相干的,
09:28
boring無聊, it's sometimes有時
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有時是無趣的
09:30
that we actually其實 create創建 those organizations組織 in that way.
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是我們自己把這些組織機構搞成這個樣子的。
09:32
So what we have to actually其實 do is build建立
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所以我們現在要做的就是
09:35
these entrepreneurial創業 state organizations組織.
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把這些國家政府機構建成創業型機構。
09:37
DARPADARPA, that funded資助 the Internet互聯網 and SiriSiri的,
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資助網際網路和語音控制系統 Siri 的 DARPA
09:39
actually其實 thought really hard about this,
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1585
實際上對風險投資深思熟慮過,
09:41
how to welcome歡迎 failure失敗, because you will fail失敗.
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如何迎接失敗呢,因為你總會有失敗的。
09:44
You will fail失敗 when you innovative創新.
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你如果勇於創新,肯定有失敗的時候。
09:45
One out of 10 experiments實驗 has any success成功.
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10次實驗中的一次也許會有成功。
09:49
And the V.C. guys know this,
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搞風險投資的人當然知道這些。
09:51
and they're able能夠 to actually其實 fund基金 the other losses損失
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他們其實願意為那些有過一次成功的
09:53
from that one success成功.
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失敗者提供資金。
09:55
And this brings帶來 me, actually其實, probably大概,
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而這實際上讓我覺得
09:56
to the biggest最大 implication意義,
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有非常大的意義。
09:59
and this has huge巨大 implications啟示 beyond innovation革新.
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這個意義已經超過了創新科技的巨大影響。
10:02
If the state is more than just a market市場 fixer定影液,
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國家政府不僅僅有市場修復的功能,
10:05
if it actually其實 is a market市場 shaper整形,
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1812
而且有塑造市場的功能。
10:07
and in doing that has had to take on this massive大規模的 risk風險,
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因此,政府需要在創新科技上冒大險
10:10
what happened發生 to the reward獎勵?
244
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那麼回報是什麼呢?
10:12
We all know, if you've ever taken採取 a finance金融 course課程,
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如果你上過金融課,你會知道
10:14
the first thing you're taught is sort分類 of the risk-reward風險回報 relationship關係,
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你學到的第一課
就大概是風險與報酬的關係,
10:18
and so some people are foolish enough足夠
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因此有些人愚蠢至極
10:19
or probably大概 smart聰明 enough足夠 if they have time to wait,
248
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2462
或者說聰明至極,他們把時間花在
10:22
to actually其實 invest投資 in stocks個股, because they're higher更高 risk風險
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投資股票上,因為股票的風險高
10:24
which哪一個 over time will make a greater更大 reward獎勵 than bonds債券,
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2520
所以隨之而來的報酬也自然高。
10:27
that whole整個 risk-reward風險回報 thing.
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這就是所說的風險報酬的關係。
10:28
Well, where's哪裡 the reward獎勵 for the state
252
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1973
政府在創新科技上
10:30
of having taken採取 on these massive大規模的 risks風險
253
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冒了如此大的風險,那麼報酬在哪裡?
10:33
and actually其實 been foolish enough足夠 to have doneDONE the Internet互聯網?
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2459
政府搞什麼網際網路,是不是傻過了頭?
10:35
The Internet互聯網 was crazy.
255
623812
1952
網際網路是瘋狂的。
10:37
It really was. I mean, the probability可能性 of failure失敗 was massive大規模的.
256
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3152
的確是。我的意思說,它帶來的失敗可能是巨大的。
10:40
You had to be completely全然 nuts堅果 to do it,
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2610
你一定得是個傻子才去給它投資。
10:43
and luckily, they were.
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1781
幸運的是,他們是傻子。
10:45
Now, we don't even get to this question about rewards獎勵
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2501
現在,我們還沒提到報酬這事兒呢。
10:47
unless除非 you actually其實 depict描繪 the state as this risk-taker冒險家.
260
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4148
除非你把美國政府描繪成風險容忍者。
10:51
And the problem問題 is that economists經濟學家 often經常 think,
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2601
問題是經濟學家們往往認為,
10:54
well, there is a reward獎勵 back to the state. It's tax.
262
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2486
政府當然有報酬呀,那些稅收呀。
10:57
You know, the companies公司 will pay工資 tax,
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1549
你知道,公司當然會交稅,
10:58
the jobs工作 they create創建 will create創建 growth發展
264
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2290
他們創造就業機會,稅收自然會增長。
11:00
so people who get those jobs工作 and their incomes收入 rise上升
265
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3151
人們得到那些工作,他們的工資得到提高,
11:04
will come back to the state through通過 the tax mechanism機制.
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3224
然後通過交納稅款回報政府。
11:07
Well, unfortunately不幸, that's not true真正.
267
655257
1990
可遺憾的是,事實並非如此。
11:09
Okay, it's not true真正 because many許多 of the jobs工作 that are created創建 go abroad國外.
268
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3519
是的,事實不是這樣的,因為許多就業的崗位在國外。
11:12
Globalization全球化, and that's fine. We shouldn't不能 be nationalistic民族主義.
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全球化,這沒問題。我們不應該持國家主義態度。
11:15
Let the jobs工作 go where they have to go, perhaps也許.
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也許我們就應該
讓這些工作崗位安置在合適的地方。
11:17
I mean, one can take a position位置 on that.
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我是說,總有人會受雇。
11:20
But also these companies公司
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但這些公司
11:21
that have actually其實 had this massive大規模的 benefit效益 from the state --
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其實從政府那兒得到了巨大的好處。
11:24
Apple's蘋果 a great example.
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蘋果就是一個很好的例子。
11:26
They even got the first -- well, not the first,
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他們甚至是第一,好吧,也許不是第一,
11:28
but 500,000 dollars美元 actually其實 went to Apple蘋果, the company公司,
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但是他們確實通過SBIC計畫
11:33
through通過 this SBICSBIC program程序,
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得到了50萬美元的資助。
11:35
which哪一個 predated the SBIRSBIR program程序,
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該計畫早於後來的SBIR計畫。
11:37
as well as, as I said before, all the technologies技術 behind背後 the iPhone蘋果手機.
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同樣,我說的,iPhone背後的所有技術也來自那裡。
11:41
And yet然而 we know they legally法律上,
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但是我們知道在法律上,
11:43
as many許多 other companies公司, pay工資 very little tax back.
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和其他公司一樣,蘋果公司只需要上繳很少的稅款。
11:47
So what we really need to actually其實 rethink反思
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所以我們確實需要重新思考的是
11:50
is should there perhaps也許 be a return-generating回報產生 mechanism機制
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也許需要有一個利潤回報機制
11:54
that's much more direct直接 than tax. Why not?
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讓這些公司回報比稅款更多的資金給政府。
為什麼不呢?
11:57
It could happen發生 perhaps也許 through通過 equity公平.
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也許可以通過發行股票的方式。
11:59
This, by the way, in the countries國家
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順便說一下,其他國家
12:01
that are actually其實 thinking思維 about this strategically戰略性,
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實際上也在考慮使用這樣的方法。
12:04
countries國家 like Finland芬蘭 in Scandinavia斯堪的納維亞,
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比如說斯堪的納維亞半島上的芬蘭
12:06
but also in China中國 and Brazil巴西,
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還有中國和巴西。
12:08
they're retaining固定 equity公平 in these investments投資.
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他們的政府持有這些創新公司的股票。
12:10
Sitra希特拉 funded資助 Nokia諾基亞, kept不停 equity公平, made製作 a lot of money,
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希特拉投資諾基亞,持有股票,賺了很多錢,
12:14
it's a public上市 funding資金 agency機構 in Finland芬蘭,
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它是芬蘭的一個公共投資機構。
12:17
which哪一個 then funded資助 the next下一個 round回合 of Nokias諾基亞.
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它後來又資助了諾基亞的下一代產品。
12:19
The Brazilian巴西人 Development發展 Bank銀行,
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巴西開發銀行
12:21
which哪一個 is providing提供 huge巨大 amounts of funds資金 today今天
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現在提供大量資金
12:24
to clean清潔 technology技術, they just announced公佈
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去開發清潔技術。他們剛剛宣佈了
12:26
a 56 billion十億 program程序 for the future未來 on this,
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一個對未來清潔技術的 560 億資助計畫。
12:30
is retaining固定 equity公平 in these investments投資.
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他們會保有這些發明的上市股票。
12:34
So to put it provocatively挑逗,
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把它說得誘人些,
12:35
had the U.S. government政府 thought about this,
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美國政府完全可以考慮
12:38
and maybe just brought back
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通過一些所謂的創新基金
12:40
just something called an innovation革新 fund基金,
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得到更多的回報。
12:42
you can bet賭注 that, you know, if even just .05 percent百分
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你知道嗎,你完全可以打賭,如果僅僅 0.05%
12:46
of the profits利潤 from what the Internet互聯網 produced生成
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由網際網路帶來的收益
12:47
had come back to that innovation革新 fund基金,
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回報給創新基金的話,
12:49
there would be so much more money
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會有更多的錢
12:51
to spend today今天 on green綠色 technology技術.
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可以投資到綠色科技上。
12:53
Instead代替, many許多 of the state budgets預算
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可是,許多政府預算
12:55
which哪一個 in theory理論 are trying to do that
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想這麼去做的,
12:57
are being存在 constrained受限.
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可是資金有限。
12:59
But perhaps也許 even more important重要,
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但或許更重要的是,
13:01
we heard聽說 before about the one percent百分,
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我們之前聽過 1%
13:03
the 99 percent百分.
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99%。
13:04
If the state is thought about in this more strategic戰略 way,
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如果美國政府能夠更有戰略眼光,
13:08
as one of the lead players玩家 in the value creation創建 mechanism機制,
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成為創造價值機制的主導者該有多好。
13:11
because that's what we're talking about, right?
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這就是我們在討論的重點,對吧?
13:13
Who are the different不同 players玩家 in creating創建 value
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誰在市場經濟中充當創造價值的特殊一員?
13:15
in the economy經濟, and is the state's狀態 role角色,
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考慮到政府的作用,
13:17
has it been sort分類 of dismissed駁回 as being存在 a backseat後座 player播放機?
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政府是不是成了市場經濟中的候補隊員了?
13:21
If we can actually其實 have a broader更廣泛 theory理論
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實際上,如果我們有一個更廣義的
13:23
of value creation創建 and allow允許 us to actually其實 admit承認
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創造價值理論,我們可以允許
13:25
what the state has been doing and reap收割 something back,
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政府對科技投資,以期回報。
13:28
it might威力 just be that in the next下一個 round回合,
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也許下一輪的科技創新時,我們就可以這樣做。
13:31
and I hope希望 that we all hope希望 that the next下一個 big revolution革命
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我希望我們期待的下一個巨大變革
13:34
will in fact事實 be green綠色,
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會真的是綠色革命。
13:35
that that period of growth發展
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那個時期的經濟增長,
13:37
will not only be smart聰明, innovation-led以創新為導向,
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不僅是智慧的、 創新主導的、
13:40
not only green綠色, but also more inclusive包括的,
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不僅是綠色的,更應該是包容的,
13:43
so that the public上市 schools學校 in places地方 like Silicon Valley
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這樣,像在矽谷的那些公立學校
13:46
can actually其實 also benefit效益 from that growth發展,
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就可以從經濟增長中直接受益。
13:49
because they have not.
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但是他們還沒有受益。
13:50
Thank you.
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謝謝。
13:52
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
Translated by Lin Piao
Reviewed by Wen-Hsin (Willy) Feng

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Mariana Mazzucato - Innovation economist
Which actor in the economy is most responsible for making radical innovation happen? Mariana Mazzucato comes up with a surprising answer: the state.

Why you should listen

States and governments are often depicted as slow, bureaucratic, risk-averse. That argument is used in support of making states smaller and the private sector bigger. In her latest book, The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Private vs. Public Myths in Innovation and in her research, Mariana Mazzucato offers a bold contrarian view: States aren't only market regulators and fixers, but "market makers" -- actively creating a vision for innovation and investing in risky and uncertain areas where private capital may not see the ROI. Yes: Private venture capital is much less risk-taking than generally thought. As an example, the technology behind the iPhone and Google exists because the U.S. government has been very interventionist in funding innovation. Private investors jumped in only later. The same is true today of what promises to be the next big thing after the Internet: the green revolution.

Mazzucato, a professor of economics at the Science and Technology Policy Research Unit (SPRU, University of Sussex), argues that Europe needs today to rediscover that role -- that what the continent needs is not austerity but strategic investments (and new instruments such as public investments banks) towards an "innovation Union."

More profile about the speaker
Mariana Mazzucato | Speaker | TED.com

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