TED Talks India: Nayi Baat
Deepa Narayan: 7 beliefs that can silence women -- and how to unlearn them
迪帕·納拉揚: 七種堵女人嘴的信念與忘記之道
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社會學家迪帕·納拉揚說，印度及許多其他國家的女孩和婦女仍因傳統禮節和約束而保持沉默。她在這場坦率的演講中，解析根深蒂固的不平等現象，呼籲大家協助推動革新。
Deepa Narayan - Social psychologist
Deepa Narayan is an international advisor on poverty, gender and development with more than 25 years of experience working at the World Bank, the UN and NGOs. Full bio
Deepa Narayan is an international advisor on poverty, gender and development with more than 25 years of experience working at the World Bank, the UN and NGOs. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Shah Rukh Khan: "A girl
should be seen, not heard."
should be seen, not heard."
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沙魯克·汗（沙）：「女孩
應該被看到，不被聽到。」
應該被看到，不被聽到。」
00:15
"Be quiet," or, "chup."
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「保持安靜」或「閉嘴」。
00:17
These words are often used
to silence girls right from childhood,
to silence girls right from childhood,
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從童年開始，這些話
常被用來使女孩靜默無聲，
常被用來使女孩靜默無聲，
00:21
well into adulthood
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一直持續到成年
00:22
and deep into old age.
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甚至老年。
00:24
I'm proud to introduce our next speaker,
a true champion of the female voice,
a true champion of the female voice,
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我很榮幸介紹下一位講者，
真正擁護女性的發言權，
真正擁護女性的發言權，
00:28
an advisor on poverty,
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擔任世界銀行、聯合國、
00:29
gender and development for the World Bank,
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印度和世界各地多個
聯合國與非政府組織的
聯合國與非政府組織的
00:31
United Nations and several NGOs
in India and the world over.
in India and the world over.
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貧困、性別與發展的顧問。
00:36
She calls herself a cultural detective.
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她自稱是文化偵探。
00:39
Let's raise our voices to welcome
renowned social scientist and author
renowned social scientist and author
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讓我們熱烈歡迎
著名的社會科學家和作家
著名的社會科學家和作家
00:44
Deepa Narayan.
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迪帕·納拉揚（迪）。
00:46
(Music)
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（音樂）
00:48
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
00:56
Deepa Narayan: The goal
of every loving parent
of every loving parent
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迪：每個慈愛父母的目標
都是把女兒養育好。
00:58
is to raise good girls,
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01:00
but what parents actually do
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但是父母做的，實際上
01:02
is to constrain, confine
and crush their girls.
and crush their girls.
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約束、限制和迫害他們的女兒。
01:07
So as they crush their girls,
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他們迫害自己的女兒
01:09
they prepare them for abuse.
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恰是為她們受虐做準備。
01:11
This would be so devastating
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這未來面對的毀滅性
01:14
that no parent would be able to bear it,
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沒有父母承受得了，
01:16
so it's disguised.
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因此被粉飾。
01:17
In India, we call this "adjusting."
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在印度，我們稱之為「調整」。
01:21
I'm sure you've heard the word.
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我確信你聽過這個詞。
01:23
"Darling, just adjust a bit.
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「親愛的，調整一點點。
01:25
Just adjust.
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調整一點點就好。
01:27
No matter what happens, just adjust."
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不管發生什麼事，只要調整就好。」
01:30
"Adjust" trains girls to be powerless,
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「調整」訓練女孩無作為、
01:33
not to exist, not to be seen,
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不存在、不被看見、
01:36
not to have a self,
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不擁有自我；
01:38
and it trains boys to claim power
and authority over the world.
and authority over the world.
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還訓練男孩要求掌握
世上的權力和權威。
世上的權力和權威。
01:44
And in the meantime we keep talking about
gender equality and women's empowerment.
gender equality and women's empowerment.
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值此同時，我們一直談論
性別平等和婦女賦權。
性別平等和婦女賦權。
01:50
After 2012, after the gang rape
in a moving bus in Delhi,
in a moving bus in Delhi,
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在 2012 年德里發生
公車輪姦案之後，
公車輪姦案之後，
01:55
I really wanted to understand
the roots of abuse.
the roots of abuse.
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我迫切要了解虐待的根源，
02:00
So I started asking
a very simple question:
a very simple question:
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因此我開始問一個很簡單的問題：
02:04
what does it mean to you
to be a good woman or a good man today?
to be a good woman or a good man today?
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在今天好女人、好男人
對您意味著什麼？
對您意味著什麼？
02:10
And I was so surprised by what I heard,
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我聽到的答案，
尤其年輕人給的答案讓我十分驚訝，
02:13
the answers particularly
that young people gave,
that young people gave,
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02:16
that the project became a research project
and it took over my life.
and it took over my life.
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那問題成了專案研究，
接管了我的生活。
接管了我的生活。
02:22
For three years, I listened
to over 600 women, men and children,
to over 600 women, men and children,
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三年來，我聽了
600 多名受過教育的
600 多名受過教育的
中產階級男女老少的說法，
02:27
educated, middle class,
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02:29
and it led to 1,800 hours of listening
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1800 小時的聆聽，
02:33
and 8,000 pages of notes,
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8000 頁的筆記，
02:35
and it took another year
to make sense of it.
to make sense of it.
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又花了一年整理才理清。
02:38
Nowadays, we see well-dressed, educated
women like many of you in this room,
women like many of you in this room,
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如今，在這裡看得到衣冠楚楚
像你我一樣受過良好教育的婦女，
02:44
all of you in this room, and myself,
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02:47
and we think the world has changed,
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我們以為世界已經改變了。
02:49
but these external changes
are extremely misleading,
are extremely misleading,
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然而這些外在的變化極其誤導，
02:53
because on the inside,
we have not changed.
we have not changed.
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因為我們的內在並沒有改變。
02:58
So today, I'm not going
to talk about poor people.
to talk about poor people.
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因此今天我不再談論窮人。
03:00
I'm going to talk only about
the middle and upper classes,
the middle and upper classes,
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我只談論中產階級和上層階級，
03:03
because we are the ones most in denial.
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因為我們是最不肯面對真相的一群。
03:06
We are the ones who have said
over and over again
over and over again
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我們一遍又一遍地說：
03:11
that when women are educated,
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一旦婦女受過教育，
03:13
when they're employed
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有職業
03:14
and they earn incomes,
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賺取收入後，
03:16
they will be equal, empowered and free.
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就會平等，被賦予權力和享有自由。
03:20
They're not.
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沒這回事。
03:22
Why?
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為什麼？
03:23
From my research, I identify seven habits
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我從研究中發現了七個泯滅女性
03:27
that delete women,
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使女性消失的習慣，
03:28
that make women disappear,
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03:30
but these habits persist
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這些習慣根深蒂固
03:33
because they're so familiar to us
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是因為我們熟悉它們，
03:35
and we've made them good and moral.
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視它們為有益、符合道德。
03:38
Why would you change or drop
anything that's good and moral?
anything that's good and moral?
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何必改變或放棄
有益和符合道德的東西？
有益和符合道德的東西？
03:43
So, on the one hand, we love our children,
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因此，一方面我們愛自己的孩子，
03:45
we love our daughters,
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愛我們的女兒，
03:46
and on the other hand, we crush them.
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另一方面我們迫害她們。
03:50
Habit one: You don't have a body.
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習慣一：沒有身體。
03:55
The first step to make a girl a ghost
is to make her body disappear,
is to make her body disappear,
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讓女孩消失的第一步
是讓她的身體消失，
是讓她的身體消失，
04:00
to pretend that she doesn't have a body.
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假裝自己沒有身體。
04:02
Akangsha, who is 23, said,
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23 歲的阿崗莎（Akangsha）說：
04:05
"In my family, we never
spoke about the body, never."
spoke about the body, never."
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「我的家人從不談論身體，
從未談論過。」
從未談論過。」
04:10
And it is in this silence
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正是在這種沉默中，
04:11
that millions and millions of girls
get sexually molested,
get sexually molested,
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成千上萬的女孩受到性侵害，
04:15
and they don't even tell their mothers.
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甚至沒告訴母親。
04:19
And it's the negative comments from others
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正是由於他人的負面評論
04:22
that leads to 90 percent of women
saying that they dislike their bodies.
saying that they dislike their bodies.
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導致 90％ 的女性
宣稱不喜歡自己的身體。
宣稱不喜歡自己的身體。
04:27
When a girl rejects her body,
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女孩拒絕自己的身體
04:29
she rejects her only house
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等同拒絕她唯一的住所，
04:31
and invisibility and insecurity
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隱形和不安全感因此造成
她不穩定的基礎。
她不穩定的基礎。
04:34
become her very shaky foundation.
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04:37
Habit two: Be quiet. Chup.
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習慣二：保持安靜，閉嘴。
04:41
If you're not supposed to exist
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如果不該存在而且沒有身體，
04:43
and you don't have a body,
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04:45
how can you have a voice?
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那怎會有聲音？
04:47
So just about every woman said,
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因此，幾乎每個女人都說：
04:49
"When I was little,
my mother used to scold me and say,
my mother used to scold me and say,
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「小時候我媽媽常常斥責我，說：
04:53
'Don't speak, be quiet, be chup,
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『別說話，保持安靜，閉嘴，
04:56
speak softly, don't argue
and never answer back.
and never answer back.
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說話輕聲，不要爭論，
永遠不要回嘴。
永遠不要回嘴。
05:00
Jawab nahi Dena.'"
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Jawab nahi Dena。』」
05:01
I'm sure you've all heard that.
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我確信你們都聽過。
05:03
And so girls become afraid,
and they withdraw.
and they withdraw.
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因此，女孩變得害怕、退縮。
05:06
And they become quiet and they say,
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她們變得安靜，說：
05:09
"Let it go. Jaane do.
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「算了吧。Jaane do。
05:11
What's the point? Nobody listens."
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何必呢？沒人聽的。」
05:14
Educated women said
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受過教育的婦女說
05:16
that their number one problem
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她們的頭號問題是
05:17
was their inability to speak up,
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無法發聲，
05:21
as if there was a foot on their throat
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彷彿有一隻腳踩在她們的喉嚨上
05:24
ready to choke them.
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隨時準備封她們的喉。
05:26
Silence slices off women.
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沉默剝奪婦女。
05:31
Habit three: Be a people pleaser.
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習慣三：做個討喜的人。
05:34
Please others.
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取悅別人。
05:35
Everyone likes a nice woman
who always smiles,
who always smiles,
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每個人都喜歡總是微笑的好女人，
05:38
who never says no, who is never angry,
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她從不說不、從不生氣，
05:41
even when she's being exploited.
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即使在被剝削的情況下也不出聲。
05:43
Amisha, who is 18, said,
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18 歲的阿蜜莎（Amisha）說：
05:46
"My father said,
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「我父親說：
05:48
'If I don't see you smiling,
I don't feel good.'"
I don't feel good.'"
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『沒看到你微笑
讓我覺得不舒服。』」
讓我覺得不舒服。』」
05:52
So she smiles.
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所以她微笑。
05:53
So her father is teaching her,
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父親教她的是
05:56
my happiness is more important
than your happiness.
than your happiness.
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我的幸福比你的幸福更重要。
06:00
And in this business of trying
to make everyone happy all the time,
to make everyone happy all the time,
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在長久試圖取悅所有人的過程中，
06:04
girls become afraid to make decisions.
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女孩變得害怕做決定。
06:08
And when you ask them, they say,
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你問她們，她們回答：
06:10
"Anything, whatever! Kuch bhi!
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「都好啊。Kuch bhi！
06:13
Everything goes. Chalta hai."
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都可以。 Chalta hai。」
06:17
Darsha, who is 25,
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25 歲的達莎（Darsha）自豪地說：
06:19
said with great pride,
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06:21
"I'm highly elastic.
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「我非常有彈性，
06:23
I become whatever others want me to be."
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別人想要我成為什麼樣子
我都辦得到。」
我都辦得到。」
06:27
Such girls give up their dreams,
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這樣的女孩放棄了自己的夢想、
06:30
their desires,
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慾望，
06:31
and nobody even notices,
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沒人注意，
06:33
except for depression.
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沮喪除外。
06:35
It moves in.
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沮喪登堂入室，
06:37
Another slice of a girl is taken off.
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又取走女孩的一部份。
06:43
Habit four: You have no sexuality.
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習慣四：無性。
06:47
I think you'd all agree that
with a population of over 1.3 billion,
with a population of over 1.3 billion,
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我想大家都認同
超過 13 億人口的印度
對性並不陌生。
對性並不陌生。
06:51
sex is not new to India.
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06:54
What is new is that
more people now acknowledge
more people now acknowledge
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新鮮的是，現在有更多人
承認女性也有獲得性慾的權利。
06:58
that women, too,
have a right to sexual desire.
have a right to sexual desire.
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07:03
But how can a woman who has not
been allowed to own her body,
been allowed to own her body,
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但是未被允許擁有自己的身體、
07:06
who hasn't been educated about her body,
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未被教育過自己身體的女人，
07:09
who may have been sexually molested,
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可能被性侵害過，
07:11
who cannot say no
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不能說不，
07:13
and who has been filled with shame,
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還充滿羞恥感的女人，
07:15
how can she claim her sexual desire?
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該如何聲稱自己有性慾呢？
07:18
A woman's sexuality is suppressed.
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女人的性存在受到抑制。
07:22
Habit five: Don't trust women.
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習慣五：不要相信女人。
07:27
Imagine how the world would change
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想像如果婦女團結在一起
07:29
if women came together in solidarity,
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世界將會發生怎樣的變化。
07:31
but as to make sure
that this doesn't happen,
that this doesn't happen,
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但為確保不發生這種情況，
07:34
our culture places high moral value
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我們的文化將高度道德價值
07:38
on loyalty to men and family secrecy.
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置於對男人忠誠和為家庭保密上。
07:42
Woman after woman said,
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女人一個個接著說：
07:43
"I know only one trustworthy woman,
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「據我所知，唯一值得信賴的女人
07:46
and that's me."
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就是我自己。」
07:48
Even Ruchi, who is 30
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甚至在德里大學致力於女性賦權的
07:49
and who works on women's empowerment
at Delhi University, said,
at Delhi University, said,
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30 歲的茹琪（Ruchi）也說：
07:53
"I don't trust women.
They're jealous and they backbite."
They're jealous and they backbite."
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「我不相信女人。
女人善妒、會背後傷人。」
07:57
Obviously, then, in cities,
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顯然在城市中
07:59
women don't join women's groups,
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婦女不參加婦女團體，
08:01
and when you ask them why, they say,
"We don't have time for gossip."
"We don't have time for gossip."
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問她們為什麼，她們回答：
「我們沒時間聊八卦。」
「我們沒時間聊八卦。」
08:05
It's much easier
to demolish a woman who is alone.
to demolish a woman who is alone.
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要毀掉孤立無援的女人相較容易。
08:10
Habit six: Duty over desire.
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習慣六：責任優先於慾望。
08:14
Muskan gave a very long definition
of a good girl, and she's only 15.
of a good girl, and she's only 15.
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才 15 歲的木思康（Muskan）
對好女孩的定義很詳細：
對好女孩的定義很詳細：
08:19
"She is kind, gentle, polite, loving,
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「好女孩善良、溫柔、有禮、有愛心、
08:21
caring, truthful, obedient,
respects elders,
respects elders,
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關心、誠實、服從、尊重長者，
08:24
helps everyone unconditionally,
and is good to others and fulfills duty."
and is good to others and fulfills duty."
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無條件幫助每個人，
善待他人，並能履行職責。」
善待他人，並能履行職責。」
08:29
Tiring, isn't it.
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好累，不是嗎？
08:31
By the time you fulfill duty,
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履行職責後
08:34
whatever little desire
is left is also lost.
is left is also lost.
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僅餘的一點慾望也消失了。
08:38
And when sacrificing mothers
have nothing left to say
have nothing left to say
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犧牲自我的母親除了談論食物，
08:41
except talk about food --
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別無其他話可說——
08:43
"Have you eaten? Khana kha liya?
What will you eat?" --
What will you eat?" --
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「吃飽了沒？Khana kha liya？
你要吃什麼？」
08:47
men like Saurabh, who is 24,
call them "boring."
call them "boring."
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像 24 歲的索拉卜等男人
說她們「索然無趣」。
說她們「索然無趣」。
08:52
A woman becomes a residue.
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女人成了殘留物。
08:55
Habit seven: Be totally dependent.
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習慣七：完全依賴。
08:59
So all these habits
collectively crush women,
collectively crush women,
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這些習慣共同迫害女性，
09:02
fill her with fear
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讓她充滿恐懼，
09:03
and make her totally dependent
on men for her survival,
on men for her survival,
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完全依靠男人來維持生存，
09:07
and this allows the system
of male power to continue.
of male power to continue.
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這使得男性權力體系得以延續。
因此，這七個我們認為
好的、道德的習慣
好的、道德的習慣
09:12
So all these seven habits
that we thought were good and moral
that we thought were good and moral
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09:16
snatch life away from girls
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共同奪走女孩的人生，
09:19
and position men to abuse.
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使男人更容易虐待她們。
09:23
We must change.
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我們必須改變。
09:25
How do we change?
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我們該如何改變？
09:27
A habit is just a habit.
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習慣僅僅是習慣。
09:29
Every habit is a learned habit,
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每個習慣都由學習而來，
09:32
so we can unlearn them
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能藉由反向學習去掉它們，
09:33
and this personal change
is extremely important.
is extremely important.
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而這種個人的改變極其重要。
09:36
I had to change too.
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我也必須改變。
09:38
But this doesn't change the system
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但這不足以改變
迫害其他眾多女性的系統。
09:41
that crushes millions of other women.
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09:44
So we have to go to the roots.
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因此，我們必須追本溯源。
09:46
We must change what it means
to be a good woman and a good man,
to be a good woman and a good man,
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我們必須改變好女人
和好男人的定義，
和好男人的定義，
09:50
because this a foundation
of every society.
of every society.
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因為那是每個社會的基礎。
09:54
We don't need elastic women,
we need elastic definitions,
we need elastic definitions,
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我們不需要有彈性的女性，
反倒需要彈性的定義。
反倒需要彈性的定義。
09:58
for men too,
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對男性亦然，
10:00
and this big societal change
cannot happen without men's involvement.
cannot happen without men's involvement.
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如果沒有男性的參與，
這巨大的社會革新就不會發生。
這巨大的社會革新就不會發生。
10:05
We need you.
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我們需要你。
10:06
We need men to become champions of change,
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我們需要男人擁護革新，
10:09
to develop strong change muscles.
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發展強大的革新力量。
10:13
Otherwise, it will be two more centuries
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要不然，我們的女孩、男孩
10:15
before our girls, and our boys,
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還得等上兩個世紀才能安全和自由。
10:18
are safe and free.
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10:20
Imagine half a billion women
coming together, with the support of men,
coming together, with the support of men,
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想像結合五億名婦女，
有男人的支持，
10:26
to talk to one another
for conversation, for change,
for conversation, for change,
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她們彼此交談，
尋求個人和政治上的變革與對話；
10:29
both personal and political,
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10:31
and imagine men in their own circles,
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還想像自己圈子中的男人；
想像男女在一起只為互相傾聽，
10:34
and imagine women and men coming together
to just listen to each other
to just listen to each other
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10:38
without judgment, without blame,
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不論斷、不責備、
10:40
without accusations and without shame.
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不指責，也不羞辱。
10:43
Imagine how much we would change.
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想像我們會改變多少。
10:45
We can do this together.
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我們可以一起做。
10:47
Women, don't adjust.
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女人，不要調整。
10:51
Men, adjust.
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男人，調整一下。
10:53
It's time.
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正是此時。
10:55
Thank you.
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謝謝。
10:57
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
11:01
SRK: How well said, how wonderful.
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汗：說得好，多麼美妙。
11:03
Everyone, Deepa, please.
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大家，這是迪帕。
11:05
Listening to her, I realized
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聽她的話，我意識到，
11:06
that even in the simplest conversations
that we have with women,
that we have with women,
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即使與女性最簡單地交談，
11:10
we're actually being aggressive.
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實際上我們（男人）仍氣勢洶洶。
11:12
For example, I do tell
my daughter sometimes,
my daughter sometimes,
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例如，我有時會告訴女兒
11:14
"Yaar Tu hasti hai to mujhe
accha lagta hai varna bura lagta hai".
accha lagta hai varna bura lagta hai".
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「如果你是我，這樣會開心嗎？」
11:18
So sorry, I would never do that.
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很抱歉，我以後不會那樣了。
11:19
Aaj Se main meri beti ko yahi bolunga.
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今天起我要跟我女兒說：
11:21
Whatever you're doing,
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不論你做什麼，
不要為我而做，
11:23
mujhe accha hi lagta hai,
aur accha nahi bhi lagta hai
aur accha nahi bhi lagta hai
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做你想要的，好嗎？
11:25
Toh mera kya, tum wohi karo jo
tumhare ko lagta hai, right?
tumhare ko lagta hai, right?
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迪：對啊！
11:28
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
11:31
How did you feel,
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您是什麼感覺——
11:33
first listening to so many
unfulfilled stories, desires,
unfulfilled stories, desires,
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聽了這麼多（女孩）未竟之事、
慾望、欠缺獨立，
11:39
lack of independence,
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11:40
of girls that you normally would assume
we think these girls are better off?
we think these girls are better off?
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我們原以為她們的境況變好了——
您是什麼感覺？
11:44
DN: Very depressed.
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迪：我非常沮喪。
11:46
It was shocking for me,
and that's why I couldn't stop,
and that's why I couldn't stop,
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令我震驚，這就是
為什麼我不能停下來，
為什麼我不能停下來，
11:49
because I had no plans to do a study
and no plans to write a book.
and no plans to write a book.
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因為我沒有學習計劃，
也沒有寫書的計劃。
也沒有寫書的計劃。
11:53
I'd written 17 books before,
and I thought, "I'm done,"
and I thought, "I'm done,"
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我以前寫過 17 本書，
我原本以為：「我都做完了。」
我原本以為：「我都做完了。」
11:57
but when I went to St. Stephen's College
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但是去聖史蒂芬學院時，
11:59
and I heard, at most elite colleges
you well know from Delhi,
you well know from Delhi,
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我聽說在德里的大多數精英大學中，
12:04
and the young women and the men,
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青年無論男女
12:06
what they said about what it meant
to them to be a woman and man
to them to be a woman and man
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對成為高中生的意義代表什麼。
12:10
sounded not like me
but like my mother's generation.
but like my mother's generation.
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這些人的說法聽起來不像我，
而像我母親那一代。
而像我母親那一代。
12:13
So then I went to another college
and another college.
and another college.
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我去了一所又一所大學。
12:16
The thing that was striking to me
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讓我驚訝的是
12:18
is that each woman felt she was alone,
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每個女人都覺得自己很孤獨，
12:21
that she hides her fear
and hides her behavior,
and hides her behavior,
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隱藏自己的恐懼和行為，
12:25
because she thinks it's a personal fault.
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因為她認為是自己的過失。
12:28
It's not a personal fault, it's training,
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這不是個人過失，而是訓練。
12:31
and I think that's the biggest revelation
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我認為最大的啟示是：
12:33
is that, if we stop pretending,
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如果我們不再假裝，
12:36
then the world changes.
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世界就會改變。
12:38
SRK: Do you girls all agree
with what Deepa is saying?
with what Deepa is saying?
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汗：大家都同意迪帕的話嗎？
12:41
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
12:44
Already see that young girl saying,
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已經看到那小女孩說：
「聽到了，聽到她的話了。
12:45
"Heard, heard what she said?
You say this to me."
You say this to me."
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你說的。
12:48
Yeah, that's the way it should be.
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沒錯，正該如此。
你們男孩應該調整。
12:50
You, boy, you adjust.
We are not adjusting anymore, OK?
We are not adjusting anymore, OK?
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我們（女人）不再調整了。」
12:53
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
12:54
Thank you so much.
Have a good evening. Thank you.
Have a good evening. Thank you.
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非常感謝。晚安。謝謝。
（掌聲）
12:57
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Deepa Narayan - Social psychologistDeepa Narayan is an international advisor on poverty, gender and development with more than 25 years of experience working at the World Bank, the UN and NGOs.
Why you should listen
Deepa Narayan is a social scientist and author of Chup: Breaking the Silence About India’s Women. Until 2008, she served as Senior Advisor in the vice president's office of the Poverty Reduction Group of the World Bank.
While at the World Bank, Narayan advanced program development and evaluation and conducted two studies that resulted in key policy changes: "The Voices of the Poor," which examined the experiences of 60,000 women and men from 60 countries around the world; and "Moving Out of Poverty: Understanding Freedom, Democracy and Growth from the Bottom Up," which studied people from 15 countries to understand how some people climb out of poverty while others remain stuck. Both studies highlight how policy mindsets and unexamined assumptions about impoverished people distort policy decisions.
Narayan's current interests include shared and sustainable living, reducing inequality, making corporate social responsibility a reality, ethical development and economic policies that create wealth for poor people. She holds a PhD in psychology and anthropology and has authored or coauthored more than 15 books.
Deepa Narayan | Speaker | TED.com