TED2002
Dan Dennett: Dangerous memes
Dan Dennett o opasnim memima
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Počinjući s jednostavnom pričom o jednom mravu, filozof Dan Dennett izbacuje razarujuću salvu ideja, stvarajući uvjerljivi slučaj za postojanje mema: koncept koji doslovno živi.
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientist
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:25
How many Creationists do we have in the room?
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Koliko kreacionista imamo ovdje?
00:28
Probably none. I think we're all Darwinians.
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Vjerojatno nema. Mislim da smo svi Darvinisti.
00:31
And yet many Darwinians are anxious, a little uneasy --
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Ipak, mnogi Darvinisti su zabrinuti, donekle i uzrujani,
00:38
would like to see some limits on just how far the Darwinism goes.
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željeli bi vidjeti neke granice do kud Darvinizam doseže.
00:43
It's all right.
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To je u redu.
00:45
You know spiderwebs? Sure, they are products of evolution.
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Znate za paukove mreže? One su proizvod evolucije.
00:49
The World Wide Web? Not so sure.
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World Wide Web? Nisam siguran.
00:53
Beaver dams, yes. Hoover Dam, no.
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Dabrove brane, da. Hooverova brana, ne.
00:55
What do they think it is that prevents the products of human ingenuity
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Što to ne dopušta proizvodima ljudske genijalnosti
01:01
from being themselves, fruits of the tree of life,
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da budu plod stabla života,
01:04
and hence, in some sense, obeying evolutionary rules?
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da zadovoljavaju pravila evolucije?
01:10
And yet people are interestingly resistant
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Ipak, zanimljivo, ljudi se opiru
01:14
to the idea of applying evolutionary thinking to thinking -- to our thinking.
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ideji o primjeni evolucijskog razmišljanja na naše razmišljanje.
01:21
And so I'm going to talk a little bit about that,
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Govorit ću malo o tome,
01:25
keeping in mind that we have a lot on the program here.
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imajući na umu da ima puno toga.
01:29
So you're out in the woods, or you're out in the pasture,
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Vani ste u šumi, ili na nekom pašnjaku,
01:33
and you see this ant crawling up this blade of grass.
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i vidite mrava kako se penje po vlati trave.
01:36
It climbs up to the top, and it falls,
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Penje so do vrha, padne,
01:39
and it climbs, and it falls, and it climbs --
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ponovno se penje, i padne, i penje se --
01:42
trying to stay at the very top of the blade of grass.
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pokušavajući ostati na vrhu travke.
01:46
What is this ant doing? What is this in aid of?
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Što to čini ovaj mrav? Koja je svrha?
01:51
What goals is this ant trying to achieve by climbing this blade of grass?
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Koji cilj nastoji mrav postići penjući se travkom?
01:58
What's in it for the ant?
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Što će mu to?
02:00
And the answer is: nothing. There's nothing in it for the ant.
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A odgovor je: za ništa. Za mrava je to ništa.
02:06
Well then, why is it doing this?
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Pa zašto on to čini?
02:09
Is it just a fluke?
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Je li to čista slučajnost?
02:11
Yeah, it's just a fluke. It's a lancet fluke.
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To je obični metilj (Dicrocoelium dendricitum)
02:18
It's a little brain worm.
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To je mali moždani nametnik.
02:20
It's a parasitic brain worm that has to get into the stomach of a sheep or a cow
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To je parazitska moždana ličinka koja mora stići u stomak ovce ili goveda
02:25
in order to continue its life cycle.
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kako bi nastavila svoj životni ciklus.
02:28
Salmon swim upstream to get to their spawning grounds,
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Losos pliva uzvodno kako bi došao do svoga mrijestilišta,
02:33
and lancet flukes commandeer a passing ant,
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a metilj regrutira mrava koji prolazi
02:37
crawl into its brain, and drive it up a blade of grass like an all-terrain vehicle.
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uvlači se u njegov mozak, i vozi se uz vlat trave kao neko terensko vozilo.
02:42
So there's nothing in it for the ant.
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Znači, za mrava je to ništa.
02:46
The ant's brain has been hijacked by a parasite that infects the brain,
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Mravlji mozak je otet od strane parazita koji zaražava mozak,
02:54
inducing suicidal behavior.
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dajući samoubilačko ponašanje.
02:58
Pretty scary.
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Zastrašujuće.
03:00
Well, does anything like that happen with human beings?
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Događa li se nešto slično s ljudskim bićima?
03:05
This is all on behalf of a cause other than one's own genetic fitness, of course.
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Ovome uzrok nije nečiji genetički fitnes.
03:10
Well, it may already have occurred to you
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Možda vam je već palo na pamet
03:15
that Islam means "surrender," or "submission of self-interest to the will of Allah."
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da Islam znači "predaja", ili "predavanje svojih interesa Allahovoj volji".
03:25
Well, it's ideas -- not worms -- that hijack our brains.
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Ideje su te -- a ne ličinke -- koje otimaju vaš mozak.
03:31
Now, am I saying that a sizable minority of the world's population
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Govorim li ja da su ogromnoj manjini svjetske populacije
03:36
has had their brain hijacked by parasitic ideas?
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mozak otele parazitske ideje?
03:43
No, it's worse than that.
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Ne. Mnogo je gore.
03:45
Most people have.
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Radi se o većini ljudi.
03:49
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
03:53
There are a lot of ideas to die for.
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Mnogo je ideja za koje se umire.
03:55
Freedom, if you're from New Hampshire.
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Sloboda, ako ste iz New Hampshire-a.
03:58
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
04:02
Justice. Truth. Communism.
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Pravda. Istina. Komunizam.
04:06
Many people have laid down their lives for communism,
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Mnogi ljudi su položili svoje živote za komunizam,
04:09
and many have laid down their lives for capitalism.
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a mnogi su položili svoje živote za kapitalizam.
04:12
And many for Catholicism. And many for Islam.
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I mnogi za Katoličanstvo. I mnogi za Islam.
04:16
These are just a few of the ideas that are to die for.
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Ovo su samo neke ideje za koje se umire.
04:21
They're infectious.
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One su zarazne.
04:24
Yesterday, Amory Lovins spoke about "infectious repititis."
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Jučer je Amory Lovins govorio o "infektivnom repetitisu".
04:28
It was a term of abuse, in effect.
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To je bilo u značenju prevare.
04:31
This is unthinking engineering.
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Ovo je inženjering bez razmišljanja.
04:33
Well, most of the cultural spread that goes on
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Većina širenja kulture koje se događa
04:37
is not brilliant, new, out-of-the-box thinking.
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nije sjajno, novo razmišljanje.
04:41
It's "infectious repetitis,"
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To je zarazni repetitis (ponavljanje).
04:43
and we might as well try to have a theory of what's going on when that happens
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Možemo probati s teorijom "što se ovo događa" kad se to dogodi,
04:48
so that we can understand the conditions of infection.
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kako bismo mogli shvatiti uvjete zaraze.
04:54
Hosts work hard to spread these ideas to others.
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Izvori zaraze rade naporno kako bi proširili ideje drugima.
05:01
I myself am a philosopher, and one of our occupational hazards
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Ja sam filozof, i jedan od rizika profesije
05:07
is that people ask us what the meaning of life is.
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je da nas ljudi pitaju koji je smisao života.
05:11
And you have to have a bumper sticker,
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I morate imati neku frazu,
05:14
you know. You have to have a statement.
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morate imati svoju izjavu.
05:17
So, this is mine.
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A ovo je moja.
05:19
The secret of happiness is: Find something more important than you are
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Tajna sreće je: Nađi nešto važnije no što si ti sam
05:23
and dedicate your life to it.
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i posveti svoj život tome.
05:25
Most of us -- now that the "Me Decade" is well in the past --
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Većina nas --sada kad je "Ja desetljeće" iza nas --
05:29
now we actually do this.
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u stvari to i čini.
05:31
One set of ideas or another
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Prvi ili drugi set ideja
05:34
have simply replaced our biological imperatives in our own lives.
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su zamijenili biološke imperative u našim životima.
05:38
This is what our summum bonum is.
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To je naš summum bonum (najviše dobro).
05:41
It's not maximizing the number of grandchildren we have.
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To više nije maksimalno povećanje broja unuka.
05:44
Now, this is a profound biological effect.
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Ovo je važan biološki učinak.
05:48
It's the subordination of genetic interest to other interests.
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Podređivanje genetičkih interesa drugim interesima.
05:51
And no other species does anything at all like it.
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I niti jedna vrsta ne čini ništa slično ovome.
05:55
Well, how are we going to think about this?
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Kako ćemo promišljati o ovome?
05:57
It is, on the one hand, a biological effect, and a very large one.
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U jednu ruku ovo je biološki učinak, i to veoma velik.
06:01
Unmistakable.
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Nepogrešiv.
06:03
Now, what theories do we want to use to look at this?
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Koje teorije želimo koristiti da ovo promotrimo?
06:06
Well, many theories. But how could something tie them together?
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Mnoge teorije. Ali što ih povezuje skupa?
06:09
The idea of replicating ideas;
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Ideja o razmnažanju ideja;
06:12
ideas that replicate by passing from brain to brain.
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Ideje koje se razmnažaju kolanjem od mozga do mozga.
06:17
Richard Dawkins, whom you'll be hearing later in the day, invented the term "memes,"
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Richard Dawkins, o kome ćete slušati kasnije, izmislio je termin "memi",
06:22
and put forward the first really clear and vivid version of this idea
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i postavio prvu istinski jasnu i živopisnu verziju ove ideje
06:27
in his book "The Selfish Gene."
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u svojoj knjizi "Sebični gen."
06:29
Now here am I talking about his idea.
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I, evo me, pričam vam o ovoj ideji.
06:32
Well, you see, it's not his. Yes -- he started it.
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Vidite, ona nije njegova. Da -- on je začetnik.
06:38
But it's everybody's idea now.
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No, sada je to svačija ideja.
06:41
And he's not responsible for what I say about memes.
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A on nije odgovoran za ono što govorim o memima.
06:45
I'm responsible for what I say about memes.
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Ja sam odgovoran za što govorim o memima.
06:50
Actually, I think we're all responsible
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U stvari, mislim da smo svi odgovorni
06:53
for not just the intended effects of our ideas,
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ne samo za namjeravane učinke naših ideja,
06:59
but for their likely misuses.
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nego i za njihove mogućne zlouporabe.
07:03
So it is important, I think, to Richard, and to me,
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Zato mislim da je važno za Richarda i mene,
07:07
that these ideas not be abused and misused.
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da se ove ideje ne izokreću ili zloupotrebljavaju.
07:11
They're very easy to misuse. That's why they're dangerous.
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Veoma su pogodne za zloporabu.. Zato su opasne.
07:14
And it's just about a full-time job
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Treba nam puno radno vrijeme
07:17
trying to prevent people who are scared of these ideas
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za sprječavanje ljudi koji se plaše ovih ideja
07:20
from caricaturing them and then running off to one dire purpose or another.
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od karikiranja tih ideja zbog raznih ciljeva.
07:28
So we have to keep plugging away,
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Dakle, moramo ustrajno raditi,
07:31
trying to correct the misapprehensions
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pokušavajući ispraviti zablude
07:33
so that only the benign and useful variants of our ideas continue to spread.
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da se jedino bezopasne i korisne varijante naših ideja nastave širiti.
07:41
But it is a problem.
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No, to je problem.
07:45
We don't have much time, and I'm going to go over just a little bit of this and cut out,
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Nemamo previše vremena, i ja ću samo na brzinu prijeći ovo, a zatim prekinuti,
07:50
because there's a lot of other things that are going to be said.
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zato što će biti mnogo drugih stvari o kojima će se govoriti.
07:53
So let me just point out: memes are like viruses.
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Znači, samo da istaknem: Memi su kao virusi.
07:58
That's what Richard said, back in '93.
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To je Richard rekao još '93.
08:00
And you might think, "Well, how can that be?
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Možete pomisliti, "Kako to može biti?
08:02
I mean, a virus is -- you know, it's stuff! What's a meme made of?"
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Mislim, virus je tvar! Od čega se sastoji mem?"
08:09
Yesterday, Negroponte was talking about viral telecommunications
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Jučer je Negroponte govorio o virusnim telekomunikacijama
08:14
but -- what's a virus?
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ali -- što je virus?
08:15
A virus is a string of nucleic acid with attitude.
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Virus je nit nukleinske kiseline sa stavom.
08:19
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
08:20
That is, there is something about it
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Naime, ima nešto kod njega
08:22
that tends to make it replicate better than the competition does.
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što mu dopušta da se razmnožava bolje nego konkurencija.
08:26
And that's what a meme is. It's an information packet with attitude.
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I to je ono što je mem; paket informacija sa stavom.
08:30
What's a meme made of? What are bits made of, Mom?
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Od čega je napravljen mem? Od čega su bitovi, mama?
08:36
Not silicon.
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Ne od silicija.
08:38
They're made of information, and can be carried in any physical medium.
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Napravljeni su od informacija, i mogu se prenijeti u bilo koji fizički medij.
08:42
What's a word made of?
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Od čega je sačinjena riječ?
08:44
Sometimes when people say, "Do memes exist?"
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Kad ljudi kažu, "Postoje li uistinu memi?"
08:49
I say, "Well, do words exist? Are they in your ontology?"
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Ja kažem, "A, postoje li riječi? Jesu li one u vašoj ontologiji?"
08:53
If they are, words are memes that can be pronounced.
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Ako jesu, onda su riječi memi koji se mogu izgovoriti.
08:58
Then there's all the other memes that can't be pronounced.
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Postoji mnoštvo mema koji se ne mogu izgovarati.
09:01
There are different species of memes.
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Postoje različite vrste mema.
09:09
Remember the Shakers? Gift to be simple?
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Sjećate li se Shakersa? Poklon da bude jednostavan?
09:13
Simple, beautiful furniture?
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Jednostavan, ali prelijep namještaj?
09:16
And, of course, they're basically extinct now.
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Sada više ne postoje.
09:19
And one of the reasons is that among the creed of Shaker-dom
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A jedan od razloga je i taj da među vjernicima Shakerstva
09:25
is that one should be celibate.
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mora biti celibat.
09:27
Not just the priests. Everybody.
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Ne samo svećenici. Svi.
09:29
Well, it's not so surprising that they've gone extinct. (Laughter)
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Onda, nije ni čudo da su izumrli. (Smijeh)
09:37
But in fact that's not why they went extinct.
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No, u stvari to nije razlog zašto su izumrli.
09:42
They survived as long as they did
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Opstajali su sve do
09:45
at a time when the social safety nets weren't there.
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dok nije došla mreža socijalne sigurnosti.
09:47
And there were lots of widows and orphans,
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Imali su dosta udovica i siročadi,
09:50
people like that, who needed a foster home.
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i sličnih ljudi, koji trebaju dom koji će ih posvojiti.
09:53
And so they had a ready supply of converts.
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Tako su imali redoviti priljev preobraćenika.
09:56
And they could keep it going.
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I mogli su tako nastavljati.
09:58
And, in principle, it could've gone on forever,
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I, u principu, tako je moglo zauvijek.
10:00
with perfect celibacy on the part of the hosts.
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Sa potpunim celibatom svoje pastve.
10:03
The idea being passed on through proselytizing,
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Ideja se umnažala putem preobraćenja,
10:08
instead of through the gene line.
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umjesto putem genske linije.
10:13
So the ideas can live on in spite of the fact
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Znači, ideje mogu živjeti usprkos činjenici
10:17
that they're not being passed on genetically.
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da nisu sprovođene genetički.
10:20
A meme can flourish in spite of having a negative impact on genetic fitness.
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Mem može uspijevati usprkos negativnom učinku na genetički fitnes.
10:24
After all, the meme for Shaker-dom was essentially a sterilizing parasite.
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Zapravo, mem Shakerstva je u osnovi bio sterlilizirajući parazit.
10:33
There are other parasites that do this -- which render the host sterile.
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Postoje i drugi paraziti koji čine isto -- koji čine domaćina sterilnim.
10:40
It's part of their plan.
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To je dio njihova plana.
10:42
They don't have to have minds to have a plan.
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Oni ne moraju imati umove da bi imali plan.
10:47
I'm just going to draw your attention to just one
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Još ću vam skrenuti pozornost na samo jednu
10:52
of the many implications of the memetic perspective, which I recommend.
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od mnogih implikacija memičke perspektive, a što preporučam.
11:01
I've not time to go into more of it.
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Nemam vremena dublje ulaziti u nju.
11:03
In Jared Diamond's wonderful book, "Guns, Germs and Steel,"
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U predivnoj knjizi Jareda Diamondsa "Puške, klice i čelik",
11:07
he talks about how it was germs, more than guns and steel,
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on govori kako su klice, više nego puške i čelik,
11:13
that conquered the new hemisphere -- the Western hemisphere --
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pokorile novu hemisferu -- Zapadnu hemisferu --
11:18
that conquered the rest of the world.
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pokorile ostatak svijeta.
11:20
When European explorers and travelers spread out,
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Kada su se europski istraživači i putnici razmiljeli,
11:27
they brought with them the germs
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sa sobom su ponijeli klice
11:29
that they had become essentially immune to,
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na koje su oni već postali imuni,
11:32
that they had learned how to tolerate over
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koje su naučili podnositi
11:35
hundreds and hundreds of years, thousands of years,
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tijekom stotina i stotina godina, tisućama godina,
11:38
of living with domesticated animals who were the sources of those pathogens.
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suživota sa domaćim životinjama koje su bili izvor ovih patogena.
11:43
And they just wiped out -- these pathogens just wiped out the native people,
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I ovi patogeni su izbrisali domorodački narod,
11:48
who had no immunity to them at all.
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koji nije imao imunitet prema njima.
11:51
And we're doing it again.
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I ponovno to isto činimo.
11:55
We're doing it this time with toxic ideas.
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Ovaj put to činimo putem otrovnih ideja.
12:00
Yesterday, a number of people -- Nicholas Negroponte and others --
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Jučer, brojni ljudi -- Nicholas Negroponte i ostali --
12:04
spoke about all the wonderful things
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govorili su o svim tim sjajnim stvarima
12:06
that are happening when our ideas get spread out,
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koje se događaju kada se naše ideje šire,
12:09
thanks to all the new technology all over the world.
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zahvaljujući svim tim novim tehnologijama po svijetu.
12:11
And I agree. It is largely wonderful. Largely wonderful.
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I slažem se. Uglavnom je to krasno.
12:17
But among all those ideas that inevitably flow out into the whole world
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Između svih tih ideja koje neizbježno otječu u svijet
12:25
thanks to our technology, are a lot of toxic ideas.
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zahvaljujući tehnologiji, ima mnogo toksičnih ideja.
12:30
Now, this has been realized for some time.
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Ovo znamo već neko vrijeme.
12:33
Sayyid Qutb is one of the founding fathers of fanatical Islam,
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Sayyid Qutb je jedan od očeva fanatičnog Islama,
12:39
one of the ideologues that inspired Osama bin Laden.
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jedan od ideologa koji je nadahnuo Osamu bin Ladena.
12:44
"One has only to glance at its press films, fashion shows, beauty contests,
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"Treba samo pogledati njihove filmove, modne revije, izbore ljepote,
12:49
ballrooms, wine bars and broadcasting stations." Memes.
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plesne dvorane, vinske barove i TV postaje." Memi.
12:55
These memes are spreading around the world
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To su memi koji se šire svijetom.
12:59
and they are wiping out whole cultures.
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i oni brišu cijele kulture.
13:04
They are wiping out languages.
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Istrebljuju jezike.
13:06
They are wiping out traditions and practices.
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Istrebljuju tradicije i običaje.
13:11
And it's not our fault, anymore than it's our fault when our germs lay waste
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I to nije naša greška, ništa više nego kad šaljemo klice bacila
13:19
to people that haven't developed the immunity.
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na narode koji nisu razvili imunitet.
13:22
We have an immunity to all of the junk that lies around the edges of our culture.
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Mi imamo imunitet na otpad koji leži na rubnim dijelovima naše kulture
13:28
We're a free society, so we let pornography and all these things -- we shrug them off.
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Slobodno smo društvo, pa ne marimo za pornografiju i slično -- ignoriramo ih.
13:34
They're like a mild cold.
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Kao blagu prehladu.
13:36
They're not a big deal for us.
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Nisu nam strašni.
13:38
But we should recognize that for many people in the world,
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No moramo shvatiti da su za mnoge ljude u svijetu,
13:42
they are a big deal.
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oni velika stvar.
13:46
And we should be very alert to this.
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I trebali bismo biti oprezni,
13:49
As we spread our education and our technology,
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kada širimo naše obrazovanje ili tehnologiju,
13:52
one of the things that we are doing is we're the vectors of memes
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jedna od stvari koje činimo je da smo vektori mema
14:00
that are correctly viewed by the hosts of many other memes
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koje ispravno gledaju nosioci drugih mema
14:06
as a dire threat to their favorite memes --
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kao opasnu prijetnju svojim memima --
14:09
the memes that they are prepared to die for.
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memima za koje su spremni umrijeti.
14:12
Well now, how are we going to tell the good memes from the bad memes?
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Kako ćemo razlikovati dobre od loših mema?
14:16
That is not the job of the science of memetics.
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To nije zadatak nauke o memima.
14:21
Memetics is morally neutral. And so it should be.
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Memetika je moralno neutralna. I takva treba biti.
14:27
This is not the place for hate and anger.
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Ovo nije mjesto za mržnju i ljutnju.
14:31
If you've had a friend who's died of AIDS, then you hate HIV.
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Ako vam je prijatelj umro od AIDS-a, mrziti ćete HIV.
14:36
But the way to deal with that is to do science,
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Ali to se rješava bavljenjem naukom,
14:40
and understand how it spreads and why in a morally neutral perspective.
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i razumijevanjem zašto se i kako širi sa moralno neutralnim stajalištem.
14:47
Get the facts.
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Dobiti činjenice.
14:49
Work out the implications.
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Pronaći implikacije.
14:53
There's plenty of room for moral passion once we've got the facts
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Možemo ispoljiti moralnu strast jednom kad imamo činjenice
14:57
and can figure out the best thing to do.
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i kad znamo što je najbolje učiniti.
14:59
And, as with germs, the trick is not to try to annihilate them.
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I, kao s klicama, trik je ne pokušavati uništiti ih.
15:04
You will never annihilate the germs.
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Nikad nećete uspjeti uništiti klice.
15:07
What you can do, however, is foster public health measures and the like
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Ono što možete učiniti je poticati zdravstvene mjere i sklonost
15:13
that will encourage the evolution of avirulence.
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koje će poticati razvoj otpornosti.
15:19
That will encourage the spread of relatively benign mutations
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To će pripomoći širenju bezopasnih mutacija
15:26
of the most toxic varieties.
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najotrovnijih vrsta.
15:29
That's all the time I have,
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Više nemam vremena,
15:32
so thank you very much for your attention.
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najljepša hvala na vašoj pažnji.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientistDan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes.
Why you should listen
One of our most important living philosophers, Dan Dennett is best known for his provocative and controversial arguments that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes in the brain. He argues that the brain's computational circuitry fools us into thinking we know more than we do, and that what we call consciousness — isn't. His 2003 book "Freedom Evolves" explores how our brains evolved to give us -- and only us -- the kind of freedom that matters, while 2006's "Breaking the Spell" examines belief through the lens of biology.
This mind-shifting perspective on the mind itself has distinguished Dennett's career as a philosopher and cognitive scientist. And while the philosophy community has never quite known what to make of Dennett (he defies easy categorization, and refuses to affiliate himself with accepted schools of thought), his computational approach to understanding the brain has made him, as Edge's John Brockman writes, “the philosopher of choice of the AI community.”
“It's tempting to say that Dennett has never met a robot he didn't like, and that what he likes most about them is that they are philosophical experiments,” Harry Blume wrote in the Atlantic Monthly in 1998. “To the question of whether machines can attain high-order intelligence, Dennett makes this provocative answer: ‘The best reason for believing that robots might some day become conscious is that we human beings are conscious, and we are a sort of robot ourselves.'"
In recent years, Dennett has become outspoken in his atheism, and his 2006 book Breaking the Spell calls for religion to be studied through the scientific lens of evolutionary biology. Dennett regards religion as a natural -- rather than supernatural -- phenomenon, and urges schools to break the taboo against empirical examination of religion. He argues that religion's influence over human behavior is precisely what makes gaining a rational understanding of it so necessary: “If we don't understand religion, we're going to miss our chance to improve the world in the 21st century.”
Dennett's landmark books include The Mind's I, co-edited with Douglas Hofstaedter, Consciousness Explained, and Darwin's Dangerous Idea. Read an excerpt from his 2013 book, Intuition Pumps, in the Guardian >>
Dan Dennett | Speaker | TED.com