TEDGlobal 2009
Rebecca Saxe: How we read each other's minds
Rebecca Saxe: Kako mozak donosi moralne prosudbe
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Osjećati motive, vjerovanja, osjećaje bližnjih i neznanaca, prirodan je talent u ljudi. Ali kako to postižemo? Ovdje Rebecca Saxe objašnjava fascinantan laboratorijski rad koji otkriva kako mozak razmišlja o mislima drugih -- i kako prosuđuje o njihovim djelima.
Rebecca Saxe - Cognitive neuroscientist
Rebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others. Full bio
Rebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.
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Danas ću govoriti o problemu drugih umova.
00:15
And the problem I'm going to talk about
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Taj problem nije
00:17
is not the familiar one from philosophy,
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onaj poznati iz filozofije,
00:20
which is, "How can we know
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koji glasi: „Kako možemo znati
00:22
whether other people have minds?"
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imaju li drugi ljudi um?"
00:24
That is, maybe you have a mind,
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Odnosno, možda vi imate um,
00:26
and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.
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a svi drugi su samo uvjerljivi roboti.
00:29
So that's a problem in philosophy,
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To je filozofski problem.
00:31
but for today's purposes I'm going to assume
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No, za naše današnje potrebe pretpostavit ću
00:33
that many people in this audience have a mind,
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da mnogi u publici imaju um,
00:35
and that I don't have to worry about this.
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i da se ne moram brinuti oko toga.
00:37
There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us
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Postoji i drugi problem koji nam je možda još bliži
00:40
as parents and teachers and spouses
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kao roditeljima, učiteljima, supružnicima,
00:43
and novelists,
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i romanopiscima.
00:45
which is, "Why is it so hard
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A taj je: „Zašto je tako teško
00:47
to know what somebody else wants or believes?"
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znati što netko drugi želi ili u što vjeruje?"
00:49
Or perhaps, more relevantly,
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Ili, možda, još važnije,
00:51
"Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"
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"Zašto je tako teško promijeniti ono što netko želi ili vjeruje?"
00:54
I think novelists put this best.
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Mislim da to pisci najbolje prikazuju.
00:56
Like Philip Roth, who said,
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Poput Philipa Rotha, koji je rekao,
00:58
"And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business
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"Pa ipak, što ćemo poduzeti u vezi tog strašno važnog pitanja -
01:01
of other people?
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drugih ljudi?
01:03
So ill equipped are we all,
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Vrlo smo loše opremljeni
01:05
to envision one another's interior workings
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za uvid u unutarnja razmišljanja drugih
01:07
and invisible aims."
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i njihove nevidljive ciljeve."
01:09
So as a teacher and as a spouse,
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Kao učiteljica i supruga,
01:12
this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.
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s tim se problemom, naravno, srećem svakodnevno.
01:14
But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,
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No, kao znanstvenicu zanima me drugi problem u vezi s umovima drugih,
01:17
and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.
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i to je onaj koji ću vam danas predstaviti.
01:20
And that problem is, "How is it so easy
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Taj problem je: "Kako je tako lako
01:22
to know other minds?"
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upoznati umove drugih?"
01:24
So to start with an illustration,
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Počnimo s ilustracijom:
01:26
you need almost no information,
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gotovo da vam uopće ne trebaju informacije,
01:28
one snapshot of a stranger,
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kratak pogled na strankinju,
01:30
to guess what this woman is thinking,
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i možete pogoditi što ova žena misli,
01:32
or what this man is.
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ili što je ovaj čovjek.
01:35
And put another way, the crux of the problem is
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Drugim riječima, suština problema je ta
01:37
the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,
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da se stroj pomoću kojega razmišljamo o drugim umovima,
01:40
our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,
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naš mozak, sastoji od dijelova, moždanih stanica,
01:43
that we share with all other animals, with monkeys
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koje dijelimo sa svim drugim životinjama, majmunima,
01:45
and mice and even sea slugs.
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miševima, pa čak i morskim puževima.
01:48
And yet, you put them together in a particular network,
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A opet, povežite ih u specifičnu mrežu,
01:51
and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.
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i dobijete kapacitet za stvaranje Romea i Julije.
01:54
Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,
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Ili za reći, kao Alan Greenspan,
01:56
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
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"Znam da mislite kako razumijete što ste mislili da sam rekao,
01:59
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard
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ali nisam siguran kako shvaćate da ono što ste čuli
02:01
is not what I meant."
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nije ono što sam mislio."
02:03
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
02:06
So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience
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Moje područje kognitivnih neuroznanosti se bavi time
02:08
is to stand with these ideas,
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da stoji s tim idejama,
02:10
one in each hand.
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po jedna u svakoj ruci.
02:12
And to try to understand how you can put together
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I pokušava shvatiti kako možete sklopiti
02:15
simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,
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jednostavne jedinice, jednostavne poruke kroz prostor i vrijeme, u mrežu,
02:19
and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.
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i dobiti taj zapanjujući ljudski kapacitet za razmišljanje o drugim umovima.
02:23
So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.
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Reći ću vam tri stvari o ovome danas.
02:26
Obviously the whole project here is huge.
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Cijeli ovaj projekt je očito ogroman.
02:29
And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps
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I govorit ću samo o nekoliko prvih koraka
02:32
about the discovery of a special brain region
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u otkrivanju specijalne regije mozga
02:34
for thinking about other people's thoughts.
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koja služi za razmišljanje o tuđim mislima.
02:36
Some observations on the slow development of this system
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Nekoliko opažanja o sporom razvoju ovog sustava
02:38
as we learn how to do this difficult job.
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dok učimo kako obaviti taj težak posao.
02:42
And then finally, to show that some of the differences
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I zatim, napokon, pokazat ću da se neke razlike
02:44
between people, in how we judge others,
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među ljudima, to kako procjenjujemo druge,
02:47
can be explained by differences in this brain system.
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mogu objasniti razlikama u tom sustavu mozga.
02:51
So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that
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Prva stvar koju vam želim reći je ta
02:53
there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,
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da postoji područje u ljudskom mozgu, vašem mozgu,
02:56
whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.
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čiji je zadatak razmišljanje o mislima drugih ljudi.
02:59
This is a picture of it.
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Evo prikaza.
03:01
It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.
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Zove se desni privremeno-parijetalni čvor (RTPJ).
03:03
It's above and behind your right ear.
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Nalazi se iznad i iza vašeg desnog uha.
03:05
And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,
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A ovo je područje mozga koje ste koristili kad ste vidjeli slike koje sam vam pokazala,
03:07
or when you read Romeo and Juliet
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ili dok ste čitali Romea i Juliju,
03:09
or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.
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ili dok ste pokušavali razumjeti Alana Greenspana.
03:12
And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.
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To područje ne koristite za rješavanje drugih logičkih problema.
03:16
So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.
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Dakle, ta regija mozga zove se RTPJ.
03:19
And this picture shows the average activation
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A ova slika prikazuje prosječnu aktivaciju
03:21
in a group of what we call typical human adults.
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kod skupine koju nazivamo tipične odrasle osobe.
03:23
They're MIT undergraduates.
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Oni su studenti MIT-a.
03:25
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
03:29
The second thing I want to say about this brain system
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Drugo što želim reći o ovom sustavu mozga
03:31
is that although we human adults
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je da, premda smo mi, odrasli ljudi
03:33
are really good at understanding other minds,
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vrlo dobri u razumijevanju drugih umova,
03:35
we weren't always that way.
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nismo uvijek bili takvi.
03:37
It takes children a long time to break into the system.
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Djeci treba dugo vremena da usvoje taj sustav.
03:40
I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.
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Pokazat ću vam malo tog dugog, razvučenog procesa.
03:44
The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,
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Prvo što ću vam pokazati je promjena u dobi od treće do pete godine,
03:47
as kids learn to understand
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kada djeca uče razumjeti
03:49
that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.
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da drugi ljudi mogu imati uvjerenja koja se razlikuju od njihovih.
03:52
So I'm going to show you a five-year-old
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Pa ću vam pokazati petogodišnje dijete
03:54
who is getting a standard kind of puzzle
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koje dobiva standardnu zagonetku
03:56
that we call the false belief task.
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koju nazivamo zadatak pogrešnog vjerovanja.
03:59
Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.
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Video: Ovo je prvi pirat. Njegovo ime je Ivan.
04:02
And you know what pirates really like?
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A znaš što pirati stvarno vole?
04:04
Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.
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Pirati stvarno vole sendviče sa sirom.
04:07
Child: Cheese? I love cheese!
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Dijete: Sir? Ja volim sir!
04:10
RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,
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R.S.: Da. Pa tako Ivan ima sendvič sa sirom.
04:12
and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!
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i kaže "Njam njam njam njam njam!"
04:14
I really love cheese sandwiches."
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Jako volim sendviče sa sirom."
04:16
And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.
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I Ivan stavlja svoj sendvič ovdje, na vrh piratske škrinje.
04:20
And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."
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I Ivan kaže, "Znaš što? Treba mi piće uz ručak."
04:24
And so Ivan goes to get a drink.
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I Ivan ode po piće.
04:27
And while Ivan is away
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I dok Ivana nema
04:29
the wind comes,
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zapuše vjetar,
04:32
and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.
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i sruši sendvič sa škrinje na travu.
04:34
And now, here comes the other pirate.
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I sad dolazi drugi pirat.
04:38
This pirate is called Joshua.
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Ovaj pirat se zove Joshua.
04:41
And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.
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Joshua također jako voli sendviče sa sirom.
04:43
So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,
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Pa Joshua ima sendvič sa sirom i kaže,
04:45
"Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."
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"Njam njam njam njam njam! Volim sendviče sa sirom."
04:49
And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.
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I stavlja svoj sendvič sa sirom na vrh piratske škrinje.
04:52
Child: So, that one is his.
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Dijete: O, to je znači njegov.
04:54
RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.
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R.S.: To je Joshuin. Tako je.
04:56
Child: And then his went on the ground.
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Dijete: A tada je njegov pao na zemlju.
04:58
RS: That's exactly right.
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R.S.: Baš tako.
05:00
Child: So he won't know which one is his.
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Dijete: I on neće znati koji je njegov.
05:02
RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.
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R.S.: Oo. Sad Joshua odlazi nabaviti piće.
05:05
Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Ivan se vraća i kaže, "Hoću svoj sendvič sa sirom."
05:09
So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?
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Pa što misliš, koji će sendvič Ivan uzeti?
05:12
Child: I think he is going to take that one.
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Dijete: Mislim da će uzeti ovaj.
05:14
RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.
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R.S.: Da, misliš da će uzeti ovaj? Dobro. Hajdemo vidjeti.
05:16
Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.
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O da, bio si u pravu. Uzeo je taj.
05:19
So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands
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Eto, imate petogodišnjaka koji jasno razumije
05:21
that other people can have false beliefs
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da drugi ljudi mogu imati pogrešna uvjerenja
05:23
and what the consequences are for their actions.
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i koje su posljedice njihovih djela.
05:25
Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old
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A sada ćete vidjeti trogodišnjaka
05:28
who got the same puzzle.
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koji je dobio istu zagonetku.
05:30
RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Video: R.S.: I Ivan kaže, „Želim svoj sendvič sa sirom."
05:32
Which sandwich is he going to take?
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Koji sendvič će uzeti?
05:35
Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.
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Misliš da će uzeti taj? Pogledajmo što će biti.
05:37
Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.
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Pogledajmo što će učiniti. Dolazi Ivan.
05:39
And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Kaže, "Želim svoj sendvič sa sirom."
05:42
And he takes this one.
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I uzima ovaj.
05:44
Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?
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O-o. Zašto je uzeo ovaj?
05:47
Child: His was on the grass.
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Dijete: Njegov je bio na travi.
05:51
So the three-year-old does two things differently.
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R.S. Trogodišnjak dvije stvari radi različito.
05:54
First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich
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Prvo predviđa da će Ivan uzeti sendvič
05:57
that's really his.
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koji je stvarno njegov.
05:59
And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,
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A drugo, kad vidi Ivana da uzima sendvič s mjesta gdje je ostavio svoj,
06:03
where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,
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kad bismo mi rekli da uzima taj jer misli da je njegov,
06:06
the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:
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trogodišnjak ima drugo objašnjenje.
06:09
He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,
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Pirat neće uzeti svoj sendvič zato što ga ne želi,
06:11
because now it's dirty, on the ground.
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zato što je taj sendvič sada prljav, na zemlji.
06:13
So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.
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Pa zato uzima drugi sendvič.
06:15
Now of course, development doesn't end at five.
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Naravno, razvoj ne staje u petoj godini.
06:19
And we can see the continuation of this process
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Pa nastavak ovog procesa učenja
06:21
of learning to think about other people's thoughts
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o tome kako razmišljati o tuđim mislima
06:23
by upping the ante
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vidimo kad odemo korak dalje
06:25
and asking children now, not for an action prediction,
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i ne tražimo od djece da predvide akciju,
06:28
but for a moral judgment.
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već ih pitamo za moralnu prosudbu.
06:30
So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.
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Prvo ću vam opet pokazati trogodišnjaka.
06:32
RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Video: R.S.: Je li Ivan zao i zločest zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
06:35
Child: Yeah.
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Dijete: Da.
06:36
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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R.S.: Bi li Ivan trebao dobiti kaznu zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
06:39
Child: Yeah.
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Dijete: Da.
06:41
So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan
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R.S.: Možda nije iznenađujuće što on misli da je zločesto od Ivana
06:43
to take Joshua's sandwich,
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što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič.
06:45
since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich
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Zato što on misli da je Ivan uzeo Joshuin sendvič
06:47
to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.
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samo zato da izbjegne jesti svoj prljavi sendvič.
06:50
But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.
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Ali sada ćete vidjeti petogodišnjaka.
06:52
Remember the five-year-old completely understood
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Sjetite se da je petogodišnjak potpuno shvatio
06:54
why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.
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zašto je Ivan uzeo Joshuin sendvič.
06:56
RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty
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Video: R.S.: Je li Ivan zao i zločest
06:58
for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
07:00
Child: Um, yeah.
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Dijete: Mm, da.
07:02
And so, it is not until age seven
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R.S.: I tako, prije dobi od sedam godina
07:04
that we get what looks more like an adult response.
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nećemo dobiti nešto što bi sličilo na odgovor odrasle osobe.
07:07
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Video: R.S.: Hoće li Ivan biti u nevolji zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
07:10
Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.
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Dijete: Ne, vjetar treba biti u nevolji.
07:12
He says the wind should get in trouble
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R.S. On kaže da vjetar treba biti u nevolji
07:15
for switching the sandwiches.
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jer je zamijenio sendviče.
07:17
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
07:19
And now what we've started to do in my lab
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Ono što smo počeli raditi u mojem laboratoriju
07:21
is to put children into the brain scanner
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je da stavljamo djecu u skener mozga
07:23
and ask what's going on in their brain
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i pitamo se što se događa u njihovom mozgu
07:26
as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.
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dok razvijaju tu sposobnost razmišljanja o mislima drugih.
07:29
So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,
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Prva stvar je da vidimo da djeca koriste isto područje mozga, RTPJ,
07:33
being used while children are thinking about other people.
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dok razmišljaju o drugim ljudima.
07:36
But it's not quite like the adult brain.
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Ali nije potpuno isto kao u odraslom mozgu.
07:38
So whereas in the adults, as I told you,
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Kod odraslih, kako sam vam rekla,
07:40
this brain region is almost completely specialized --
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ta regija mozga je skoro potpuno specijalizirana.
07:43
it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --
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Ne radi skoro ništa drugo, samo razmišlja o mislima drugih ljudi.
07:46
in children it's much less so,
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Kod djece je to puno manje slučaj,
07:48
when they are age five to eight,
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u dobi od pet do osam godina,
07:50
the age range of the children I just showed you.
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starosna dob koju sam vam upravo pokazala.
07:52
And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,
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Čak i ako promatramo dob od osam do 11 godina,
07:55
getting into early adolescence,
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ulazak u rani pubertet,
07:57
they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.
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djeca još uvijek nemaju to područje mozga sasvim kao odrasli.
08:00
And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood
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Ono što vidimo je da se tijekom djetinjstva,
08:03
and even into adolescence,
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pa čak i ulaskom u pubertet,
08:05
both the cognitive system,
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kako oboje, kognitivni sustav,
08:07
our mind's ability to think about other minds,
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sposobnost našeg mozga da razmišlja o mislima drugih,
08:09
and the brain system that supports it
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i sustav mozga koji mu pruža podršku,
08:11
are continuing, slowly, to develop.
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polako nastavljaju razvijati.
08:14
But of course, as you're probably aware,
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Naravno, kao što ste vjerojatno svjesni,
08:16
even in adulthood,
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čak i odrasli ljudi
08:18
people differ from one another in how good they are
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se međusobno razlikuju po tome koliko su dobri
08:20
at thinking of other minds, how often they do it
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u razmišljanju o umu drugih, koliko to često čine,
08:22
and how accurately.
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i koliko točno.
08:24
And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults
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Ono što smo mi željeli znati je mogu li se razlike među odraslima,
08:27
in how they think about other people's thoughts
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u tome kako razmišljaju o mislima drugih
08:29
be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?
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objasniti pomoću razlika u ovom području mozga.
08:32
So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version
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Prvo što smo napravili je da smo dali odraslima
08:35
of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.
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verziju piratskog problema kojeg su bila dobila i djeca.
08:37
And I'm going to give that to you now.
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Sada ću vam to pokazati.
08:39
So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,
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Grace i njezina prijateljica su u obilasku tvornice kemikalija
08:42
and they take a break for coffee.
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i naprave pauzu za kavu.
08:44
And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.
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Graceina prijateljica traži šećer za svoju kavu.
08:47
Grace goes to make the coffee
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Grace ide napraviti kavu
08:50
and finds by the coffee a pot
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i kraj kave nađe posudu
08:52
containing a white powder, which is sugar.
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s bijelim prahom, šećerom.
08:55
But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"
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Ali na posudi piše „Smrtonosni otrov“.
08:58
so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.
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Pa Grace misli kako je taj prah smrtonosni otrov.
09:01
And she puts it in her friend's coffee.
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I stavlja taj prah prijateljici u kavu.
09:03
And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.
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Njezina prijateljica popije kavu, i dobro je.
09:06
How many people think it was morally permissible
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Koliko vas misli da je moralno dopustivo
09:08
for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?
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da Grace stavi taj prah u kavu?
09:12
Okay. Good. (Laughter)
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OK. Dobro. (Smijeh)
09:15
So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed
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Pa pitamo ljude koliko je Grace kriva
09:18
in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?
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u ovom slučaju, kojeg nazivamo neuspjelim pokušajem povrede.
09:20
And we can compare that to another case,
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I to možemo usporediti s drugim slučajem
09:22
where everything in the real world is the same.
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u kojem je sve u stvarnom svijetu isto.
09:24
The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.
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Prah je isto šećer, ali je drugačije ono što Grace misli.
09:27
Now she thinks the powder is sugar.
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Sada ona misli da je prah šećer.
09:30
And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar
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I, možda očekivano, ako Grace misli da je prah šećer
09:33
and puts it in her friend's coffee,
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i stavi ga prijateljici u kavu,
09:35
people say she deserves no blame at all.
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ljudi kažu da je ne treba ništa kriviti.
09:37
Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,
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Dok, ako je mislila da je prah otrov, premda je zapravo šećer,
09:41
now people say she deserves a lot of blame,
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ljudi misle da je silno kriva,
09:44
even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.
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premda je ono što se dogodilo u stvarnom svijetu jednako.
09:47
And in fact, they say she deserves more blame
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Zapravo, ljudi kažu da je ona više kriva
09:49
in this case, the failed attempt to harm,
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u ovom slučaju, neuspjelom pokušaju povrede,
09:51
than in another case,
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nego u drugom slučaju,
09:53
which we call an accident.
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kojega zovemo slučajna nezgoda.
09:55
Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,
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U kojem Grace misli da je prah šećer,
09:57
because it was labeled "sugar" and by the coffee machine,
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jer je na njemu pisalo „šećer“ i nalazio se kraj aparata za kavu,
09:59
but actually the powder was poison.
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ali je taj prah, u stvari, bio otrov.
10:01
So even though when the powder was poison,
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Dakle, čak i ako je prah bio otrov,
10:04
the friend drank the coffee and died,
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prijateljica ga je popila i umrla,
10:07
people say Grace deserves less blame in that case,
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ljudi kažu da Grace nije toliko kriva
10:10
when she innocently thought it was sugar,
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kad je nedužno mislila da je riječ o šećeru,
10:12
than in the other case, where she thought it was poison
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kao u drugom slučaju, kada je mislila kako je riječ o otrovu,
10:14
and no harm occurred.
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premda se nije dogodilo ništa loše.
10:17
People, though, disagree a little bit
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Ipak, ljudi se malo razlikuju
10:19
about exactly how much blame Grace should get
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u mišljenju koliko je krivice na Grace
10:21
in the accident case.
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u slučaju nezgode.
10:23
Some people think she should deserve more blame,
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Neki misle kako je više kriva,
10:25
and other people less.
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a neki da je manje kriva.
10:27
And what I'm going to show you is what happened when we look inside
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Sada ću vam pokazati što se događa unutar
10:29
the brains of people while they're making that judgment.
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mozg kada ljudi donose tu prosudbu.
10:31
So what I'm showing you, from left to right,
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Ono što vam pokazujem, s lijeva na desno,
10:33
is how much activity there was in this brain region,
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je koliko je aktivnosti bilo u tom području mozga.
10:36
and from top to bottom, how much blame
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A odozgo prema dolje vidite koliko krivice
10:38
people said that Grace deserved.
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ljudi kažu da je Grace zaslužila.
10:40
And what you can see is, on the left
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Na lijevoj strani vidite
10:42
when there was very little activity in this brain region,
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da kad je bilo malo aktivnosti u tom području mozga,
10:44
people paid little attention to her innocent belief
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ljudi su vrlo malo pažnje posvetili njezinom nedužnom vjerovanju
10:47
and said she deserved a lot of blame for the accident.
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i rekli su da ona snosi puno krivice.
10:50
Whereas on the right, where there was a lot of activity,
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Dok su na desnoj strani, kad je bilo puno moždane aktivnosti,
10:52
people paid a lot more attention to her innocent belief,
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ljudi posvetili puno pažnje njezinom nedužnom vjerovanju,
10:55
and said she deserved a lot less blame
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i rekli kako snosi manje krivice
10:57
for causing the accident.
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za to što je prouzročila nesreću.
10:59
So that's good, but of course
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To je dobro,
11:01
what we'd rather is have a way to interfere
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ali mi bismo radije pronašli način da utječemo
11:03
with function in this brain region,
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na funkcioniranje tog područja u mozgu,
11:05
and see if we could change people's moral judgment.
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i vidjeti možemo li promijeniti moralne prosudbe ljudi.
11:08
And we do have such a tool.
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Imamo alat za to.
11:10
It's called Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,
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Zovemo ga Transkranijalna magnetska stimulacija,
11:12
or TMS.
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ili TMS.
11:14
This is a tool that lets us pass a magnetic pulse
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To nam oruđe omogućava da pustimo magnetski puls
11:16
through somebody's skull, into a small region of their brain,
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kroz nečiju lubanju, u malo područje mozga,
11:20
and temporarily disorganize the function of the neurons in that region.
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i privremeno poremetimo funkcioniranje neurona u tom području.
11:24
So I'm going to show you a demo of this.
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Sada ću vam to demonstrirati.
11:26
First, I'm going to show you that this is a magnetic pulse.
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Prvo ću vam pokazati da je to magnetski puls,
11:29
I'm going to show you what happens when you put a quarter on the machine.
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pokazat ću što se događa kad stavite kovanicu na uređaj.
11:32
When you hear clicks, we're turning the machine on.
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Kad začujete klikanje, uređaj se uključuje.
11:42
So now I'm going to apply that same pulse to my brain,
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A sada ću taj puls primijeniti na svoj mozak,
11:45
to the part of my brain that controls my hand.
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na dio mozga koji upravlja mojom rukom.
11:47
So there is no physical force, just a magnetic pulse.
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Dakle, nema fizičke sile, samo magnetna.
11:54
Woman (Video): Ready, Rebecca? RS: Yes.
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Video: Žena: Spremna? Rebecca Saxe: Da.
11:57
Okay, so it causes a small involuntary contraction in my hand
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OK, dakle, došlo je do malog spontanog grčenja moje ruke
12:00
by putting a magnetic pulse in my brain.
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uslijed magnetskog pulsa u mojem mozgu.
12:03
And we can use that same pulse,
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Možemo koristiti isti taj puls,
12:05
now applied to the RTPJ,
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primijeniti ga na područje RTPJ,
12:07
to ask if we can change people's moral judgments.
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kako bismo vidjeli možemo li promijeniti moralne prosudbe ljudi.
12:10
So these are the judgments I showed you before, people's normal moral judgments.
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Ovo su prosudbe koje sam vam već pokazala, normalne ljudske prosudbe.
12:12
And then we can apply TMS to the RTPJ
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A zatim ćemo primijeniti TMS na RTPJ
12:15
and ask how people's judgments change.
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i upitati se kako se prosudbe mijenjaju.
12:17
And the first thing is, people can still do this task overall.
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Prvo, ljudi i dalje mogu općenito obaviti zadatak.
12:21
So their judgments of the case when everything was fine
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Njihove prosudbe u slučaju u kojem je sve u redu
12:23
remain the same. They say she deserves no blame.
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ostaju iste. Kažu da ona nije kriva.
12:26
But in the case of a failed attempt to harm,
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Ali u slučaju neuspjelog pokušaja povrede,
12:30
where Grace thought that it was poison, although it was really sugar,
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kad je Grace mislila da je riječ o otrovu, a bio je šećer,
12:33
people now say it was more okay, she deserves less blame
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ljudi sada kažu da je prihvatljivije, manje je kriva
12:36
for putting the powder in the coffee.
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što je stavila prah u šalicu.
12:39
And in the case of the accident, where she thought that it was sugar,
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A u slučaju nezgode kada je mislila da je šećer,
12:41
but it was really poison and so she caused a death,
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ali je zapravo bio otrov, pa je ona prouzročila smrt,
12:44
people say that it was less okay, she deserves more blame.
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ljudi kažu da nije toliko prihvatljivo, da je na njoj veća krivica.
12:50
So what I've told you today is that
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Ono što sam vam danas rekla je
12:52
people come, actually, especially well equipped
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da su ljudi, zapravo, sasvim dobro opremljeni
12:56
to think about other people's thoughts.
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za razmišljanje o mislima drugih ljudi.
12:58
We have a special brain system
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Imamo poseban sustav u mozgu
13:00
that lets us think about what other people are thinking.
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koji nam omogućava razmišljati o mislima drugih.
13:03
This system takes a long time to develop,
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Taj sustav se razvija dugo vremena,
13:05
slowly throughout the course of childhood and into early adolescence.
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polako tijekom djetinjstva, sve do ranog puberteta.
13:08
And even in adulthood, differences in this brain region
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A čak i kod odraslih razlike u ovom području mozga
13:11
can explain differences among adults
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mogu objasniti razlike među ljudima
13:13
in how we think about and judge other people.
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u pogledu toga kako razmišljamo i sudimo o drugima.
13:16
But I want to give the last word back to the novelists,
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Ali završnu riječ želim prepustiti romanopiscima.
13:19
and to Philip Roth, who ended by saying,
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I Philipu Rothu, koji je završio rekavši,
13:22
"The fact remains that getting people right
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"Ostaje činjenica da točno shvatiti ljude
13:24
is not what living is all about anyway.
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ionako nije suština života.
13:26
It's getting them wrong that is living.
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Život čini ono kad ljude razumijemo pogrešno.
13:28
Getting them wrong and wrong and wrong,
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Shvaćamo ih krivo i krivo i krivo,
13:31
and then on careful reconsideration,
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a zatim, nakon pažljivog razmatranja,
13:33
getting them wrong again."
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shvatimo ih krivo ponovno."
13:35
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
13:37
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
13:47
Chris Anderson: So, I have a question. When you start talking about using
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Chris Anderson: Kad počnete pričati o korištenju
13:49
magnetic pulses to change people's moral judgments,
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magnetskog pulsa radi mijenjanja moralnih prosudbi,
13:52
that sounds alarming.
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to zvuči alarmantno.
13:55
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
13:56
Please tell me that you're not taking phone calls from the Pentagon, say.
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Molim vas, recite mi da se ne javljate na pozive iz Pentagona, recimo.
14:00
RS: I'm not.
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Rebecca Saxe: Ne.
14:02
I mean, they're calling, but I'm not taking the call.
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Mislim, zovu oni, ali se ne javljam.
14:05
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
14:06
CA: They really are calling?
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C.A.: Stvarno zovu?
14:08
So then seriously,
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No, ozbiljno, ozbiljno,
14:11
you must lie awake at night sometimes
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mora da katkada noću ležite budni
14:14
wondering where this work leads.
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i pitate se gdje ovaj rad vodi.
14:16
I mean, you're clearly an incredible human being,
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Mislim, vi ste očito sjajna osoba.
14:18
but someone could take this knowledge
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Ali netko bi mogao iskoristiti to znanje
14:21
and in some future
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i u budućnosti
14:23
not-torture chamber,
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ne soba za mučenje,
14:25
do acts that people here might be worried about.
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raditi stvari koje bi mogle brinuti ovdje nazočne.
14:28
RS: Yeah, we worry about this.
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R.S.: Da, razmišljamo o tome.
14:30
So, there's a couple of things to say about TMS.
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Treba reći nekoliko stvari o TMS-u.
14:33
One is that you can't be TMSed without knowing it.
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Jedna je da ne možete primiti puls bez da ste svjesni toga.
14:35
So it's not a surreptitious technology.
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Dakle, nije riječ o skrivenoj tehnologiji.
14:38
It's quite hard, actually, to get those very small changes.
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Zapravo je sasvim teško postići ove vrlo male promjene.
14:41
The changes I showed you are impressive to me
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Promjene koje sam vam pokazala su meni impresivne
14:44
because of what they tell us about the function of the brain,
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zbog onoga što nam govore o funkciji mozga.
14:46
but they're small on the scale
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Ali su male u usporedbi
14:48
of the moral judgments that we actually make.
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s moralnim prosudbama koje ljudi u stvarnosti donose.
14:50
And what we changed was not people's
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A mi i nismo promijenili
14:52
moral judgments when they're deciding what to do,
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moralne prosudbe koje ljudi donose kad odlučuju što učiniti,
14:55
when they're making action choices.
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kad donose odluke o djelovanju.
14:57
We changed their ability to judge other people's actions.
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Mi smo promijenili njihovu sposobnost da ocijene tuđa djela.
15:00
And so, I think of what I'm doing not so much as
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I zato o onome što radim ne razmišljam
15:02
studying the defendant in a criminal trial,
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kao o proučavanju branjenika u kaznenom postupku,
15:04
but studying the jury.
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već više kao o proučavanju porote.
15:06
CA: Is your work going to lead to any recommendations
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C.A.: Hoće li vaš rad voditi nekim preporukama
15:09
in education, to perhaps bring up
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za obrazovni sustav, možda odgojiti
15:12
a generation of kids able to make fairer moral judgments?
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naraštaj djece sposobne za pravednije moralne prosudbe?
15:17
RS: That's one of the idealistic hopes.
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R.S.: To je jedna od idealističnih nada.
15:20
The whole research program here of studying
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Cijeli istraživački projekt, proučavanje
15:24
the distinctive parts of the human brain is brand new.
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različitih dijelova ljudskog mozga je potpuno nov.
15:28
Until recently, what we knew about the brain
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Donedavno smo o mozgu znali samo ono
15:30
were the things that any other animal's brain could do too,
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što može raditi i mozak svake životinje.
15:33
so we could study it in animal models.
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Pa smo ga mogli proučavati i na životinjama.
15:35
We knew how brains see, and how they control the body
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Znali smo kako mozak vidi, kako kontrolira tijelo,
15:37
and how they hear and sense.
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kako čuje i ima osjete.
15:39
And the whole project of understanding
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A cijeli projekt razumijevanja
15:42
how brains do the uniquely human things --
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toga kako mozak obavlja stvari jedinstvene za ljude,
15:44
learn language and abstract concepts,
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uči jezik, apstraktne koncepte,
15:47
and thinking about other people's thoughts -- that's brand new.
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i razmišlja o mislima drugih, je posve nov.
15:49
And we don't know yet what the implications will be
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I ne znamo još kakve će biti
15:51
of understanding it.
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implikacije toga razumijevanja.
15:53
CA: So I've got one last question. There is this thing called
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C.A.: Imam zadnje pitanje. Postoji nešto što se zove
15:55
the hard problem of consciousness,
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težak problem svjesnosti,
15:57
that puzzles a lot of people.
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koji mnoge zbunjuje.
15:59
The notion that you can understand
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Shvaćanje da je moguće razumjeti
16:02
why a brain works, perhaps.
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zašto mozak radi, možda.
16:04
But why does anyone have to feel anything?
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Ali zašto bi itko morao išta osjećati?
16:07
Why does it seem to require these beings who sense things
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Zašto se čini da je potrebno da osjećamo
16:10
for us to operate?
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da bismo funkcionirali?
16:12
You're a brilliant young neuroscientist.
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Vi ste briljantna mlada neuroznanstvenica.
16:15
I mean, what chances do you think there are
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Kakve su šanse
16:17
that at some time in your career,
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da bi u nekom trenutku vaše karijere
16:19
someone, you or someone else,
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netko, vi ili netko drugi,
16:21
is going to come up with some paradigm shift
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mogao doći do pomaka paradigme
16:23
in understanding what seems an impossible problem?
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u razumijevanju toga što se čini kao nemoguć problem.
16:27
RS: I hope they do. And I think they probably won't.
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R.S.: Nadam se da hoće. A mislim da vjerojatno neće.
16:31
CA: Why?
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C.A.: Zašto?
16:34
RS: It's not called the hard problem of consciousness for nothing.
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R.S.: Ne zove se to težak problem svjesnosti tek tako.
16:37
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
16:39
CA: That's a great answer. Rebecca Saxe, thank you very much. That was fantastic.
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C.A.: Sjajan odgovor. Rebecca Saxe, hvala vam lijepa. Ovo je bilo fantastično.
16:42
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Rebecca Saxe - Cognitive neuroscientistRebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others.
Why you should listen
While still a graduate student, Rebecca Saxe made a breakthrough discovery: There's a specific region in our brain that becomes active when we contemplate the workings of other minds. Now, at MIT's Saxelab, she and her team have been further exploring her grad-school finding, exploring how it may help us understand conditions such as autism.
As Saxe delves into the complexities of social cognition, this young scientist is working toward revealing the enigma of human minds interacting.
Rebecca Saxe | Speaker | TED.com