TEDGlobal 2009
Rebecca Saxe: How we read each other's minds
蕾貝嘉薩克斯：大腦如何做道德判斷
Filmed:
Readability: 3.6
3,311,612 views
察覺親人或陌生人的動機、信念與感受是人類的天賦。但我們是怎麼做到的？在這場演講中，蕾貝嘉薩克斯與我們分享有趣的科學研究，揭露大腦如何理解他人的想法，以及評判他人的行為。
Rebecca Saxe - Cognitive neuroscientist
Rebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others. Full bio
Rebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.
0
0
3000
今天我要和大家談談心智的問題
00:15
And the problem I'm going to talk about
1
3000
2000
我要談的
00:17
is not the familiar one from philosophy,
2
5000
3000
不是大家熟悉的哲學問題
00:20
which is, "How can we know
3
8000
2000
不是＂我們怎麼知道
00:22
whether other people have minds?"
4
10000
2000
別人有心智?＂
00:24
That is, maybe you have a mind,
5
12000
2000
說不定你有心智
00:26
and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.
6
14000
3000
其他人只是很像真人的機器人
00:29
So that's a problem in philosophy,
7
17000
2000
這是哲學問題
00:31
but for today's purposes I'm going to assume
8
19000
2000
而在這場演講中，我假設
00:33
that many people in this audience have a mind,
9
21000
2000
這裡大部分的觀眾都有心智
00:35
and that I don't have to worry about this.
10
23000
2000
我就不必費心在這個問題上了
00:37
There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us
11
25000
3000
第二個問題我們可能更熟悉
00:40
as parents and teachers and spouses
12
28000
3000
身為父母、老師、丈夫妻子
00:43
and novelists,
13
31000
2000
還有小說家
00:45
which is, "Why is it so hard
14
33000
2000
我們想問，＂為什麼我們很難
00:47
to know what somebody else wants or believes?"
15
35000
2000
知道別人要什麼或想什麼?"
00:49
Or perhaps, more relevantly,
16
37000
2000
或者更貼切來說
00:51
"Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"
17
39000
3000
＂為什麼我們很難改變別人要的或想的?＂
00:54
I think novelists put this best.
18
42000
2000
我覺得小說家解釋得最好
00:56
Like Philip Roth, who said,
19
44000
2000
像菲利浦羅斯說的
00:58
"And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business
20
46000
3000
＂而我們要如何處理「他人」
01:01
of other people?
21
49000
2000
這件無比重要的大事?"
01:03
So ill equipped are we all,
22
51000
2000
我們資質不足
01:05
to envision one another's interior workings
23
53000
2000
難以窺見彼此內心的思慮
01:07
and invisible aims."
24
55000
2000
與無法捉摸的意向"
01:09
So as a teacher and as a spouse,
25
57000
3000
而身為老師、妻子
01:12
this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.
26
60000
2000
這自然也是我每天都面對的問題
01:14
But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,
27
62000
3000
但身為科學家，我感興趣的是另一個問題
01:17
and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.
28
65000
3000
也就是我今天要向大家介紹的
01:20
And that problem is, "How is it so easy
29
68000
2000
這個問題是，＂為什麼我們這麼容易
01:22
to know other minds?"
30
70000
2000
就能了解他人的心智?＂
01:24
So to start with an illustration,
31
72000
2000
先看看這張照片
01:26
you need almost no information,
32
74000
2000
你幾乎不需要其他線索
01:28
one snapshot of a stranger,
33
76000
2000
隨便看一眼這個陌生人
01:30
to guess what this woman is thinking,
34
78000
2000
就能猜出這個女人在想什麼
01:32
or what this man is.
35
80000
3000
或這個男人在想什麼
01:35
And put another way, the crux of the problem is
36
83000
2000
換句話說，問題的關鍵
01:37
the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,
37
85000
3000
是我們用以思考別人心智的機制
01:40
our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,
38
88000
3000
也就是大腦，是由許多腦細胞組成
01:43
that we share with all other animals, with monkeys
39
91000
2000
這些細胞和其他動物沒什麼不同，和猴子
01:45
and mice and even sea slugs.
40
93000
3000
和老鼠，甚至海參都差不多
01:48
And yet, you put them together in a particular network,
41
96000
3000
不過，把這些細胞用特別的方式組織在一起
01:51
and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.
42
99000
3000
造出來的大腦就能寫出羅密歐與茱麗葉
01:54
Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,
43
102000
2000
或者，像葛林斯潘說的
01:56
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
44
104000
3000
"我知道你以為你明白你認為我所說的
01:59
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard
45
107000
2000
不過我不確定你瞭解：你所聽到的
02:01
is not what I meant."
46
109000
2000
並非我真正的意思"
02:03
(Laughter)
47
111000
3000
(笑聲)
02:06
So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience
48
114000
2000
認知神經科學的工作
02:08
is to stand with these ideas,
49
116000
2000
就是思考這些問題
02:10
one in each hand.
50
118000
2000
同時比較分析這些問題
02:12
And to try to understand how you can put together
51
120000
3000
並且試著了解為什麼
02:15
simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,
52
123000
4000
把簡單的細胞和訊息組織起來
02:19
and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.
53
127000
4000
人類就有驚人的能力，能思考他人心智
02:23
So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.
54
131000
3000
我今天要談三件事
02:26
Obviously the whole project here is huge.
55
134000
3000
這個研究計畫很龐大
02:29
And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps
56
137000
3000
我想談談計畫的頭幾個步驟 --
02:32
about the discovery of a special brain region
57
140000
2000
我們是怎麼發現腦中有特定的區塊
02:34
for thinking about other people's thoughts.
58
142000
2000
負責思考其他人的想法
02:36
Some observations on the slow development of this system
59
144000
2000
以及，這種能力發展緩慢
02:38
as we learn how to do this difficult job.
60
146000
4000
所以我們很晚才學會思考別人的想法
02:42
And then finally, to show that some of the differences
61
150000
2000
最後，說明道德判斷
02:44
between people, in how we judge others,
62
152000
3000
每個人不同
02:47
can be explained by differences in this brain system.
63
155000
4000
這和每個人的大腦差異有關
02:51
So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that
64
159000
2000
首先，我想告訴各位
02:53
there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,
65
161000
3000
人類大腦有個區塊
02:56
whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.
66
164000
3000
負責思考其他人的想法
02:59
This is a picture of it.
67
167000
2000
請看這張圖
03:01
It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.
68
169000
2000
這個區域叫右顳顱頂接縫區
03:03
It's above and behind your right ear.
69
171000
2000
在你右耳後面上方
03:05
And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,
70
173000
2000
你使用這個區塊，處理我剛才給你看的照片
03:07
or when you read Romeo and Juliet
71
175000
2000
或讀羅密歐與茱麗葉
03:09
or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.
72
177000
3000
或想辦法理解葛林斯潘在說什麼
03:12
And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.
73
180000
4000
你不會用這個區塊處理任何其他邏輯問題
03:16
So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.
74
184000
3000
好，這個區塊就叫RTPJ
03:19
And this picture shows the average activation
75
187000
2000
而這張照片顯示一般人的反應
03:21
in a group of what we call typical human adults.
76
189000
2000
一群所謂普通成年人的反應
03:23
They're MIT undergraduates.
77
191000
2000
一群麻省理工大學生
03:25
(Laughter)
78
193000
4000
(笑聲)
03:29
The second thing I want to say about this brain system
79
197000
2000
關於大腦，我想談的第二點是
03:31
is that although we human adults
80
199000
2000
雖然成人
03:33
are really good at understanding other minds,
81
201000
2000
對了解別人心智很拿手
03:35
we weren't always that way.
82
203000
2000
但這不是天生的
03:37
It takes children a long time to break into the system.
83
205000
3000
小孩子要很久才會使用這項能力
03:40
I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.
84
208000
4000
我稍微介紹一下這個漫長的學習過程
03:44
The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,
85
212000
3000
首先我想展現三歲和五歲小孩間的不同
03:47
as kids learn to understand
86
215000
2000
看看小孩學會了解
03:49
that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.
87
217000
3000
別人的想法和自己可能不一樣
03:52
So I'm going to show you a five-year-old
88
220000
2000
我要給各位看一個五歲的小孩
03:54
who is getting a standard kind of puzzle
89
222000
2000
他在做一個常見的測驗
03:56
that we call the false belief task.
90
224000
3000
叫做"錯誤信念作業"
03:59
Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.
91
227000
3000
這個海盜叫做艾文
04:02
And you know what pirates really like?
92
230000
2000
你知道海盜最喜歡什麼嗎？ --什麼？
04:04
Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.
93
232000
3000
海盜最喜歡起士三明治
04:07
Child: Cheese? I love cheese!
94
235000
3000
起士？我最喜歡起士了！
04:10
RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,
95
238000
2000
嗯，然後艾文吃他的起士三明治
04:12
and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!
96
240000
2000
他說："好吃、好吃、好吃
04:14
I really love cheese sandwiches."
97
242000
2000
我最喜歡起士三明治了"
04:16
And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.
98
244000
4000
然後艾文把三明治放在這裡，放在海盜的箱子上
04:20
And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."
99
248000
4000
他說：我要喝點東西配午餐
04:24
And so Ivan goes to get a drink.
100
252000
3000
然後艾文就走了，去喝飲料
04:27
And while Ivan is away
101
255000
2000
艾文不在的時候
04:29
the wind comes,
102
257000
3000
一陣風吹來，呼...
04:32
and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.
103
260000
2000
把艾文的三明治吹到草地上
04:34
And now, here comes the other pirate.
104
262000
4000
然後又來了第二個海盜
04:38
This pirate is called Joshua.
105
266000
3000
這個海盜叫做約書亞
04:41
And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.
106
269000
2000
約書亞也很喜歡起士三明治
04:43
So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,
107
271000
2000
約書亞也在吃起士三明治
04:45
"Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."
108
273000
4000
他說："好吃、好吃、好吃，我最喜歡起士三明治了!"
04:49
And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.
109
277000
3000
然後把他的起士三明治放在海盜箱上
04:52
Child: So, that one is his.
110
280000
2000
所以這是他的起士三明治
04:54
RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.
111
282000
2000
對，這是約書亞的三明治
04:56
Child: And then his went on the ground.
112
284000
2000
然後艾文的掉在地上
04:58
RS: That's exactly right.
113
286000
2000
沒錯
05:00
Child: So he won't know which one is his.
114
288000
2000
所以他不知道哪個三明治是他的
05:02
RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.
115
290000
3000
嗯，然後約書亞也跑去拿飲料
05:05
Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
116
293000
4000
艾文回來了，他說：我要我的起士三明治
05:09
So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?
117
297000
3000
所以你覺得他會拿哪一個？
05:12
Child: I think he is going to take that one.
118
300000
2000
我覺得他會拿那一個
05:14
RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.
119
302000
2000
喔，你覺得他會拿那個嗎？好，等一下看看
05:16
Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.
120
304000
3000
對，你說的沒錯，艾文拿那一個
05:19
So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands
121
307000
2000
這個五歲小還很清楚
05:21
that other people can have false beliefs
122
309000
2000
別人可能有錯誤信念
05:23
and what the consequences are for their actions.
123
311000
2000
以及行為的結果是什麼
05:25
Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old
124
313000
3000
現在我要請各位看一個三歲的小孩
05:28
who got the same puzzle.
125
316000
2000
他接受同一個測驗
05:30
RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
126
318000
2000
然後艾文說：我要我的起士三明治
05:32
Which sandwich is he going to take?
127
320000
3000
他會拿哪一個三明治呢？
05:35
Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.
128
323000
2000
你覺得他會拿那個三明治嗎？等一下我們看看
05:37
Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.
129
325000
2000
我們來看看艾文會拿哪一個，艾文來了
05:39
And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
130
327000
3000
他說："我要我的起士三明治"
05:42
And he takes this one.
131
330000
2000
他拿了這個三明治
05:44
Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?
132
332000
3000
喔，他為什麼拿這個三明治呢？
05:47
Child: His was on the grass.
133
335000
4000
"他的三明治掉在地上"
05:51
So the three-year-old does two things differently.
134
339000
3000
所以三歲小孩的想法有兩個地方不一樣
05:54
First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich
135
342000
3000
首先，他認為艾文會拿
05:57
that's really his.
136
345000
2000
真正屬於他的三明治
05:59
And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,
137
347000
4000
其次，當他看到艾文拿放在他原先地方的三明治
06:03
where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,
138
351000
3000
我們覺得是因為艾文以為那是他的三明治
06:06
the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:
139
354000
3000
這個三歲的小孩卻有別的解釋
06:09
He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,
140
357000
2000
他說艾文不拿他的三明治，因為他不想要了
06:11
because now it's dirty, on the ground.
141
359000
2000
因為那個三明治掉在地上弄髒了
06:13
So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.
142
361000
2000
所以艾文才拿另一個三明治
06:15
Now of course, development doesn't end at five.
143
363000
4000
當然大腦發展不會在五歲停止
06:19
And we can see the continuation of this process
144
367000
2000
我們可以看到這個過程一直持續下去
06:21
of learning to think about other people's thoughts
145
369000
2000
我們不停學習思考別人的心智
06:23
by upping the ante
146
371000
2000
我們問小孩更多問題
06:25
and asking children now, not for an action prediction,
147
373000
3000
然後，不是請他們預測行為
06:28
but for a moral judgment.
148
376000
2000
而是請他們下道德判斷
06:30
So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.
149
378000
2000
首先我再請各位看剛剛那個三歲小孩
06:32
RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?
150
380000
3000
那艾文是不是故意調皮搗蛋，才拿約書亞的三明治?
06:35
Child: Yeah.
151
383000
1000
對
06:36
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
152
384000
3000
那我們是不是要處罰艾文？
06:39
Child: Yeah.
153
387000
2000
對
06:41
So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan
154
389000
2000
或許我們不意外這個小朋友會認為艾文是故意
06:43
to take Joshua's sandwich,
155
391000
2000
要拿約書亞的三明治
06:45
since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich
156
393000
2000
因為他覺得艾文拿約書亞的三明治
06:47
to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.
157
395000
3000
是因為不想吃他自己髒掉的三明治
06:50
But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.
158
398000
2000
不過現在我想給各位看五歲小孩的反應
06:52
Remember the five-year-old completely understood
159
400000
2000
記得這個五歲小孩很清楚
06:54
why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.
160
402000
2000
為什麼艾文要拿約書亞的三明治
06:56
RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty
161
404000
2000
艾文是不是故意調皮搗蛋
06:58
for taking Joshua's sandwich?
162
406000
2000
要拿約書亞的三明治？
07:00
Child: Um, yeah.
163
408000
2000
嗯，對
07:02
And so, it is not until age seven
164
410000
2000
所以，一直要到七歲
07:04
that we get what looks more like an adult response.
165
412000
3000
小孩的反應才會比較像成人
07:07
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
166
415000
3000
我們是不是要處罰艾文，因為他拿了約書亞的三明治？
07:10
Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.
167
418000
2000
不對，要處罰風才對
07:12
He says the wind should get in trouble
168
420000
3000
他說要處罰風才對
07:15
for switching the sandwiches.
169
423000
2000
因為風把三明治調換了
07:17
(Laughter)
170
425000
2000
(笑聲)
07:19
And now what we've started to do in my lab
171
427000
2000
目前我的實驗室在進行的實驗
07:21
is to put children into the brain scanner
172
429000
2000
是把兒童放在掃描儀器裡
07:23
and ask what's going on in their brain
173
431000
3000
觀察他們大腦的反應
07:26
as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.
174
434000
3000
看看發展思考他人心智能力的期間，大腦的狀況
07:29
So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,
175
437000
4000
首先我們看到兒童腦中同一個區塊，RTPJ
07:33
being used while children are thinking about other people.
176
441000
3000
也在思考他人心志時活動
07:36
But it's not quite like the adult brain.
177
444000
2000
但和成人的腦有點不同
07:38
So whereas in the adults, as I told you,
178
446000
2000
成人的腦，像我剛才說的
07:40
this brain region is almost completely specialized --
179
448000
3000
這個區塊幾乎完全特化
07:43
it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --
180
451000
3000
別的都不做，只用來思考別人的心智
07:46
in children it's much less so,
181
454000
2000
兒童的腦則不然
07:48
when they are age five to eight,
182
456000
2000
兒童在五歲到八歲
07:50
the age range of the children I just showed you.
183
458000
2000
也就是剛才的兒童所屬的年齡範圍
07:52
And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,
184
460000
3000
甚至在八歲到11歲
07:55
getting into early adolescence,
185
463000
2000
接近青春期的時候
07:57
they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.
186
465000
3000
腦中區塊的情況和成人還是不太一樣
08:00
And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood
187
468000
3000
因此，我們發現整個童年時期
08:03
and even into adolescence,
188
471000
2000
甚至一直到青春期
08:05
both the cognitive system,
189
473000
2000
我們的認知系統
08:07
our mind's ability to think about other minds,
190
475000
2000
也就是用自己的心智思考他人心志的能力
08:09
and the brain system that supports it
191
477000
2000
還有認知背後的大腦系統
08:11
are continuing, slowly, to develop.
192
479000
3000
都還在逐漸緩慢發展
08:14
But of course, as you're probably aware,
193
482000
2000
但是，或許各位也注意到
08:16
even in adulthood,
194
484000
2000
即使到了成年
08:18
people differ from one another in how good they are
195
486000
2000
每個人的認知能力還是不同，每個人是否擅長思考他人心智
08:20
at thinking of other minds, how often they do it
196
488000
2000
思考頻率
08:22
and how accurately.
197
490000
2000
還有結果是否正確，都各不相同
08:24
And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults
198
492000
3000
我們想問，成人間的不同
08:27
in how they think about other people's thoughts
199
495000
2000
在思考別人想法上的不同
08:29
be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?
200
497000
3000
是不是和每個人大腦這個區塊的差別有關
08:32
So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version
201
500000
3000
首先我們給成人
08:35
of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.
202
503000
2000
類似海盜問題的測驗
08:37
And I'm going to give that to you now.
203
505000
2000
現在我也給各位看看
08:39
So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,
204
507000
3000
葛瑞絲和她朋友去參觀化學工廠
08:42
and they take a break for coffee.
205
510000
2000
他們想休息一下，喝杯咖啡
08:44
And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.
206
512000
3000
葛瑞絲的朋友說她的咖啡要加糖
08:47
Grace goes to make the coffee
207
515000
3000
葛瑞絲去泡咖啡
08:50
and finds by the coffee a pot
208
518000
2000
發現咖啡旁有個罐子
08:52
containing a white powder, which is sugar.
209
520000
3000
裡面的白色粉末是糖粉
08:55
But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"
210
523000
3000
但罐子上寫 "劇毒"
08:58
so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.
211
526000
3000
所以葛瑞絲以為罐子裡的粉末是毒藥
09:01
And she puts it in her friend's coffee.
212
529000
2000
然後她把粉末放到朋友的咖啡裡
09:03
And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.
213
531000
3000
她朋友喝了咖啡，但安然無恙
09:06
How many people think it was morally permissible
214
534000
2000
有人認為葛瑞思把粉末放到朋友的咖啡杯
09:08
for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?
215
536000
4000
是合乎道德的嗎?
09:12
Okay. Good. (Laughter)
216
540000
3000
好，非常好 (笑聲)
09:15
So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed
217
543000
3000
接著我們問這件事葛瑞絲要付多少責任
09:18
in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?
218
546000
2000
這種情況叫做企圖傷害未遂
09:20
And we can compare that to another case,
219
548000
2000
我們可以拿來和另一個情況比較
09:22
where everything in the real world is the same.
220
550000
2000
其他條件都一樣
09:24
The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.
221
552000
3000
罐裡的粉末還是糖粉，唯一不同的是葛瑞絲的想法
09:27
Now she thinks the powder is sugar.
222
555000
3000
在這第二種情況中，葛瑞絲覺得那個粉末是糖粉
09:30
And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar
223
558000
3000
當然如果葛瑞絲認為那是糖粉
09:33
and puts it in her friend's coffee,
224
561000
2000
而加到朋友的咖啡裡
09:35
people say she deserves no blame at all.
225
563000
2000
多數人會認為葛瑞絲沒有錯
09:37
Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,
226
565000
4000
但如果葛瑞絲認為那是毒藥還把它加到朋友的咖啡裡，即使實際上那是糖粉
09:41
now people say she deserves a lot of blame,
227
569000
3000
多數人會認為葛瑞絲該受罰
09:44
even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.
228
572000
3000
雖然最後的結果其實和前一個狀況一樣
09:47
And in fact, they say she deserves more blame
229
575000
2000
還有，多數人認為在企圖傷害未遂的情況中
09:49
in this case, the failed attempt to harm,
230
577000
2000
葛瑞絲要負更多責任
09:51
than in another case,
231
579000
2000
而在另一個情況下，她不必負太多責任
09:53
which we call an accident.
232
581000
2000
這種情況叫意外
09:55
Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,
233
583000
2000
這時葛瑞絲認為罐子裡的粉末是糖粉
09:57
because it was labeled "sugar" and by the coffee machine,
234
585000
2000
因為罐子上寫"糖粉"，還擺在咖啡旁邊
09:59
but actually the powder was poison.
235
587000
2000
雖然那是毒藥
10:01
So even though when the powder was poison,
236
589000
3000
所以，就算罐子裡其實是毒藥
10:04
the friend drank the coffee and died,
237
592000
3000
害朋友喝完咖啡後死掉
10:07
people say Grace deserves less blame in that case,
238
595000
3000
多數人認為葛瑞絲不必付那麼大的責任
10:10
when she innocently thought it was sugar,
239
598000
2000
因為她毫不知情，以為那是糖粉
10:12
than in the other case, where she thought it was poison
240
600000
2000
而在她以為是毒藥，拿給朋友喝的情況下
10:14
and no harm occurred.
241
602000
3000
雖然朋友沒事，但她要負更大責任
10:17
People, though, disagree a little bit
242
605000
2000
不過，在意外的情況中
10:19
about exactly how much blame Grace should get
243
607000
2000
究竟葛瑞絲要付多少責任
10:21
in the accident case.
244
609000
2000
大家意見不同
10:23
Some people think she should deserve more blame,
245
611000
2000
有些人覺得她要負很大的責任
10:25
and other people less.
246
613000
2000
有些人覺得她不用負什麼責任
10:27
And what I'm going to show you is what happened when we look inside
247
615000
2000
而我要給各位看人類下道德判斷時
10:29
the brains of people while they're making that judgment.
248
617000
2000
大腦怎麼活動
10:31
So what I'm showing you, from left to right,
249
619000
2000
這張圖的X軸，左右方向
10:33
is how much activity there was in this brain region,
250
621000
3000
代表腦部RTPJ區塊活動多寡
10:36
and from top to bottom, how much blame
251
624000
2000
而Y軸，上下方向，
10:38
people said that Grace deserved.
252
626000
2000
代表人們認為葛瑞絲要付多少責任
10:40
And what you can see is, on the left
253
628000
2000
你可以看到，
10:42
when there was very little activity in this brain region,
254
630000
2000
在左邊，大腦這個區域沒有什麼活動時
10:44
people paid little attention to her innocent belief
255
632000
3000
大家沒有注意葛瑞絲並不知情
10:47
and said she deserved a lot of blame for the accident.
256
635000
3000
因此認為她要為意外負責
10:50
Whereas on the right, where there was a lot of activity,
257
638000
2000
而在右邊，區塊大量活動
10:52
people paid a lot more attention to her innocent belief,
258
640000
3000
大家注意到葛瑞絲事前不知情
10:55
and said she deserved a lot less blame
259
643000
2000
因此認為她不用為這場意外
10:57
for causing the accident.
260
645000
2000
負太多責任
10:59
So that's good, but of course
261
647000
2000
看來很不錯
11:01
what we'd rather is have a way to interfere
262
649000
2000
但我們更想做的
11:03
with function in this brain region,
263
651000
2000
是干擾腦中這個區塊的功能
11:05
and see if we could change people's moral judgment.
264
653000
3000
看看是否可以改變人類的道德判斷
11:08
And we do have such a tool.
265
656000
2000
而且我們的確有這種工具
11:10
It's called Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,
266
658000
2000
叫做穿顱磁刺激
11:12
or TMS.
267
660000
2000
簡稱TMS
11:14
This is a tool that lets us pass a magnetic pulse
268
662000
2000
我們可以用這個工具傳遞磁脈衝
11:16
through somebody's skull, into a small region of their brain,
269
664000
4000
通過頭骨，抵達大腦一個小區塊
11:20
and temporarily disorganize the function of the neurons in that region.
270
668000
4000
暫時癱瘓那個區塊的神經功能
11:24
So I'm going to show you a demo of this.
271
672000
2000
現在請各位看示範
11:26
First, I'm going to show you that this is a magnetic pulse.
272
674000
3000
首先我要介紹磁脈衝
11:29
I'm going to show you what happens when you put a quarter on the machine.
273
677000
3000
把硬幣放在機器上看看會發生什麼事
11:32
When you hear clicks, we're turning the machine on.
274
680000
4000
滴答聲響，表示機器打開
11:42
So now I'm going to apply that same pulse to my brain,
275
690000
3000
現在我要在我的大腦施加同樣的磁脈衝
11:45
to the part of my brain that controls my hand.
276
693000
2000
讓磁脈衝進入控制手部的區塊
11:47
So there is no physical force, just a magnetic pulse.
277
695000
3000
這不是實際的外力，只是磁脈衝
11:54
Woman (Video): Ready, Rebecca? RS: Yes.
278
702000
2000
準備好了嗎？ --好了
11:57
Okay, so it causes a small involuntary contraction in my hand
279
705000
3000
好，所以磁脈衝
12:00
by putting a magnetic pulse in my brain.
280
708000
3000
讓我的手不由自主地收縮
12:03
And we can use that same pulse,
281
711000
2000
同樣的磁脈衝
12:05
now applied to the RTPJ,
282
713000
2000
現在施加在大腦的RTJP區塊
12:07
to ask if we can change people's moral judgments.
283
715000
3000
看看我們是否能改變人的道德判斷
12:10
So these are the judgments I showed you before, people's normal moral judgments.
284
718000
2000
這是剛才各位看的道德判斷數值
12:12
And then we can apply TMS to the RTPJ
285
720000
3000
現在把TMS打到RTJP上
12:15
and ask how people's judgments change.
286
723000
2000
看看人們是否改變道德判斷
12:17
And the first thing is, people can still do this task overall.
287
725000
4000
結果發現，人還是可以做判斷作業
12:21
So their judgments of the case when everything was fine
288
729000
2000
沒發生問題的話，判斷不變
12:23
remain the same. They say she deserves no blame.
289
731000
3000
他們認為葛瑞絲不用負責
12:26
But in the case of a failed attempt to harm,
290
734000
4000
但在企圖傷害未遂的情況下
12:30
where Grace thought that it was poison, although it was really sugar,
291
738000
3000
就是葛瑞絲認為那是毒藥，但實際上是糖粉
12:33
people now say it was more okay, she deserves less blame
292
741000
3000
受測者現在覺得比較沒關係
12:36
for putting the powder in the coffee.
293
744000
3000
葛瑞絲不用為放粉末到咖啡裡負很大的責任
12:39
And in the case of the accident, where she thought that it was sugar,
294
747000
2000
至於意外狀況，也就是葛瑞絲以為那是糖粉
12:41
but it was really poison and so she caused a death,
295
749000
3000
但卻是毒藥，因而害死朋友
12:44
people say that it was less okay, she deserves more blame.
296
752000
6000
人們比較不能接受，認為她要負責
12:50
So what I've told you today is that
297
758000
2000
總而言之，今天我所說的就是
12:52
people come, actually, especially well equipped
298
760000
4000
我們其實天生資質很好
12:56
to think about other people's thoughts.
299
764000
2000
有能力思考他人的想法
12:58
We have a special brain system
300
766000
2000
我們有特別的腦部系統
13:00
that lets us think about what other people are thinking.
301
768000
3000
讓我們思考別人在想些什麼
13:03
This system takes a long time to develop,
302
771000
2000
這個系統要花很長的時間成熟
13:05
slowly throughout the course of childhood and into early adolescence.
303
773000
3000
要經過整個童年和青春期早期
13:08
And even in adulthood, differences in this brain region
304
776000
3000
而成年以後，腦部的差異
13:11
can explain differences among adults
305
779000
2000
會影響成人思考
13:13
in how we think about and judge other people.
306
781000
3000
造成不同的判斷
13:16
But I want to give the last word back to the novelists,
307
784000
3000
最後我要引用演講剛開始提到那位小說家的話
13:19
and to Philip Roth, who ended by saying,
308
787000
3000
菲力普羅斯在結尾處說
13:22
"The fact remains that getting people right
309
790000
2000
"其實理解別人
13:24
is not what living is all about anyway.
310
792000
2000
根本不是生活的重心
13:26
It's getting them wrong that is living.
311
794000
2000
誤解別人才是生活重心
13:28
Getting them wrong and wrong and wrong,
312
796000
3000
一而再，再而三地誤解別人
13:31
and then on careful reconsideration,
313
799000
2000
然後重新仔細思考
13:33
getting them wrong again."
314
801000
2000
再繼續誤解對方＂
13:35
Thank you.
315
803000
2000
謝謝各位
13:37
(Applause)
316
805000
10000
(掌聲)
13:47
Chris Anderson: So, I have a question. When you start talking about using
317
815000
2000
你剛剛提到
13:49
magnetic pulses to change people's moral judgments,
318
817000
3000
要用磁脈衝改變人的道德判斷
13:52
that sounds alarming.
319
820000
3000
那聽起來真恐怖
13:55
(Laughter)
320
823000
1000
(笑聲)
13:56
Please tell me that you're not taking phone calls from the Pentagon, say.
321
824000
4000
你應該沒有接到國防部之類打來的電話吧?
14:00
RS: I'm not.
322
828000
2000
我沒有接到
14:02
I mean, they're calling, but I'm not taking the call.
323
830000
3000
我是說，他們有打來，不過我沒接
14:05
(Laughter)
324
833000
1000
(笑聲)
14:06
CA: They really are calling?
325
834000
2000
他們真的有打啊？
14:08
So then seriously,
326
836000
3000
好了，說真的
14:11
you must lie awake at night sometimes
327
839000
3000
你一定曾經半夜睡不著
14:14
wondering where this work leads.
328
842000
2000
想著這種研究會對未來造什麼影響
14:16
I mean, you're clearly an incredible human being,
329
844000
2000
我是說，你非常了不起
14:18
but someone could take this knowledge
330
846000
3000
但有些人可能利用這種知識
14:21
and in some future
331
849000
2000
在未來某一天做某些事
14:23
not-torture chamber,
332
851000
2000
當然不至於是酷刑虐待
14:25
do acts that people here might be worried about.
333
853000
3000
但可能是某些令我們擔憂的事
14:28
RS: Yeah, we worry about this.
334
856000
2000
沒錯，我們也很擔心
14:30
So, there's a couple of things to say about TMS.
335
858000
3000
關於TMS有幾點要說明
14:33
One is that you can't be TMSed without knowing it.
336
861000
2000
首先你接受TMS時，自己一定會知道
14:35
So it's not a surreptitious technology.
337
863000
3000
這不是什麼暗中進行的神祕科技
14:38
It's quite hard, actually, to get those very small changes.
338
866000
3000
還有，想稍微改變判斷其實不容易
14:41
The changes I showed you are impressive to me
339
869000
3000
我給你們看的改變對我而言很了不起
14:44
because of what they tell us about the function of the brain,
340
872000
2000
因為我們知道大腦的功能
14:46
but they're small on the scale
341
874000
2000
但其實改變幅度很小
14:48
of the moral judgments that we actually make.
342
876000
2000
我們沒有讓道德判斷產生多大改變
14:50
And what we changed was not people's
343
878000
2000
而且我們不是真的讓人改變主意
14:52
moral judgments when they're deciding what to do,
344
880000
3000
改變他們的決定
14:55
when they're making action choices.
345
883000
2000
改變他們的行為
14:57
We changed their ability to judge other people's actions.
346
885000
3000
我們改變的只是他們判斷其他人行為的能力
15:00
And so, I think of what I'm doing not so much as
347
888000
2000
所以我覺得
15:02
studying the defendant in a criminal trial,
348
890000
2000
我們比較不像在研究刑事案件裡的被告
15:04
but studying the jury.
349
892000
2000
比較像在研究陪審團
15:06
CA: Is your work going to lead to any recommendations
350
894000
3000
你的研究可以帶來教育方面的建議嗎？
15:09
in education, to perhaps bring up
351
897000
3000
像是讓小孩長大以後
15:12
a generation of kids able to make fairer moral judgments?
352
900000
5000
能做更公正的判斷？
15:17
RS: That's one of the idealistic hopes.
353
905000
3000
有可能，那很不錯
15:20
The whole research program here of studying
354
908000
4000
這整個研究計畫
15:24
the distinctive parts of the human brain is brand new.
355
912000
4000
研究人類大腦獨特之處，是全新的概念
15:28
Until recently, what we knew about the brain
356
916000
2000
直到最近我們對腦的認識
15:30
were the things that any other animal's brain could do too,
357
918000
3000
還是侷限在其他動物也有的功能
15:33
so we could study it in animal models.
358
921000
2000
所以我們才能從動物研究推測人腦功能
15:35
We knew how brains see, and how they control the body
359
923000
2000
我們知道大腦的視覺功能，怎麼控制身體
15:37
and how they hear and sense.
360
925000
2000
還有聽覺與觸覺功能
15:39
And the whole project of understanding
361
927000
3000
而這整個計畫
15:42
how brains do the uniquely human things --
362
930000
2000
了解大腦如何進行人類獨特功能
15:44
learn language and abstract concepts,
363
932000
3000
例如語言學習、抽象思考
15:47
and thinking about other people's thoughts -- that's brand new.
364
935000
2000
還有思考他人的想法，是全新的研究領域
15:49
And we don't know yet what the implications will be
365
937000
2000
因此目前我們還不清楚
15:51
of understanding it.
366
939000
2000
了解這些會帶來什麼衝擊
15:53
CA: So I've got one last question. There is this thing called
367
941000
2000
最後一個問題
15:55
the hard problem of consciousness,
368
943000
2000
意識的困難問題
15:57
that puzzles a lot of people.
369
945000
2000
困擾許多人
15:59
The notion that you can understand
370
947000
3000
它是說你可以了解大腦怎麼運作
16:02
why a brain works, perhaps.
371
950000
2000
讓你產生主觀感受，大致是這樣
16:04
But why does anyone have to feel anything?
372
952000
3000
但是為什麼我們要有主觀感受？
16:07
Why does it seem to require these beings who sense things
373
955000
3000
為什麼我們要感受事物
16:10
for us to operate?
374
958000
2000
才能當一個"人"?
16:12
You're a brilliant young neuroscientist.
375
960000
3000
你是年輕有為的認知神經學者
16:15
I mean, what chances do you think there are
376
963000
2000
你覺得有沒有可能
16:17
that at some time in your career,
377
965000
2000
在你職業生涯某一天
16:19
someone, you or someone else,
378
967000
2000
某個人，你或其他人
16:21
is going to come up with some paradigm shift
379
969000
2000
能轉移典範，提出劃時代的觀點
16:23
in understanding what seems an impossible problem?
380
971000
4000
讓我們了解這個看來無解的問題？
16:27
RS: I hope they do. And I think they probably won't.
381
975000
4000
我希望他們做得到，但我覺得他們大概沒辦法
16:31
CA: Why?
382
979000
3000
為什麼？
16:34
RS: It's not called the hard problem of consciousness for nothing.
383
982000
3000
就是因為這樣所以才叫困難問題
16:37
(Laughter)
384
985000
2000
(笑聲)
16:39
CA: That's a great answer. Rebecca Saxe, thank you very much. That was fantastic.
385
987000
3000
答得好，蕾貝嘉薩克斯，謝謝妳，說得太好了
16:42
(Applause)
386
990000
4000
(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Rebecca Saxe - Cognitive neuroscientistRebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others.
Why you should listen
While still a graduate student, Rebecca Saxe made a breakthrough discovery: There's a specific region in our brain that becomes active when we contemplate the workings of other minds. Now, at MIT's Saxelab, she and her team have been further exploring her grad-school finding, exploring how it may help us understand conditions such as autism.
As Saxe delves into the complexities of social cognition, this young scientist is working toward revealing the enigma of human minds interacting.
Rebecca Saxe | Speaker | TED.com