TEDxPaloAlto
Leila Takayama: What's it like to be a robot?
Leila Takayama: Kako je to biti robotom?
Filmed:
Readability: 3.8
1,183,118 views
Mi već živimo među robotima: alatima i uređajima poput perilice posuđa i termostata koji su toliko sjedinjeni s našim životom da ih ni ne smatramo robotima. Kako bi budućnost s još više robota izgledala? Socijalna znanstvenica Leila Takayama dijeli neke od jedinstvenih izazova dizajniranja za ljudsko-robotske interakcije te kako nas eksperimentiranje s budućnošću robota, zapravo, vodi prema boljem razumijevanju nas samih.
Leila Takayama - Social scientist
Leila Takayama conducts research on human-robot interaction. Full bio
Leila Takayama conducts research on human-robot interaction. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
You only get one chance
to make a first impression,
to make a first impression,
0
760
2656
Imate samo jednu priliku
napraviti prvi dojam,
napraviti prvi dojam,
00:15
and that's true if you're a robot
as well as if you're a person.
as well as if you're a person.
1
3440
3176
a to je istina ako ste robot
i ako ste osoba.
i ako ste osoba.
00:18
The first time that I met
one of these robots
one of these robots
2
6640
3016
Prvi put kad sam upoznala
jednog od ovih robota
jednog od ovih robota
00:21
was at a place
called Willow Garage in 2008.
called Willow Garage in 2008.
3
9680
2896
bilo je u mjestu
nazvanom Willow Garage u 2008.
nazvanom Willow Garage u 2008.
00:24
When I went to visit there,
my host walked me into the building
my host walked me into the building
4
12600
3016
Kad sam bila u posjetu tamo,
domaćin me uveo u zgradu
domaćin me uveo u zgradu
00:27
and we met this little guy.
5
15640
1576
i upoznali smo onog malenog.
00:29
He was rolling into the hallway,
6
17240
1656
Dokotrljao se hodnikom,
00:30
came up to me, sat there,
7
18920
1816
došao do mene, sjeo,
00:32
stared blankly past me,
8
20760
2256
buljio u prazno iza mene,
00:35
did nothing for a while,
9
23040
1656
mirovao neko vrijeme,
00:36
rapidly spun his head around 180 degrees
10
24720
1936
ubrzano okrenuo glavu za 180 stupnjeva
00:38
and then ran away.
11
26680
1536
i onda pobjegao.
00:40
And that was not a great first impression.
12
28240
2176
To nije bio dobar prvi dojam.
00:42
The thing that I learned
about robots that day
about robots that day
13
30440
2176
Ono što sam naučila od robota tog dana
00:44
is that they kind of do their own thing,
14
32640
2176
je da se oni ponašaju nekako na svoju ruku
00:46
and they're not totally aware of us.
15
34840
2136
i da nas nisu sasvim svjesni.
00:49
And I think as we're experimenting
with these possible robot futures,
with these possible robot futures,
16
37000
3239
Smatram da eksperimentiranjem
s ovim mogućim budućnostima robota,
s ovim mogućim budućnostima robota,
00:52
we actually end up learning
a lot more about ourselves
a lot more about ourselves
17
40263
2673
zapravo učimo puno više o sebi,
00:54
as opposed to just these machines.
18
42960
1656
za razliku od ovih strojeva.
00:56
And what I learned that day
19
44640
1336
Ono što sam naučila tog dana
00:58
was that I had pretty high
expectations for this little dude.
expectations for this little dude.
20
46000
3416
je da sam imala dosta
visoka očekivanja od ovog mališana.
visoka očekivanja od ovog mališana.
01:01
He was not only supposed to be able
to navigate the physical world,
to navigate the physical world,
21
49440
3176
On je trebao znati navigirati
ne samo fizičkim svijetom,
ne samo fizičkim svijetom,
01:04
but also be able
to navigate my social world --
to navigate my social world --
22
52640
2656
već i mojim društvenim svijetom.
01:07
he's in my space; it's a personal robot.
23
55320
2176
On je u mom prostoru, to je osobni robot.
01:09
wWhy didn't it understand me?
24
57520
2016
Zašto me nije razumio?
01:11
My host explained to me,
25
59560
1256
Moj domaćin mi je objasnio:
01:12
"Well, the robot is trying
to get from point A to point B,
to get from point A to point B,
26
60840
3176
"Pa, robot želi doći
od točke A do točke B,
od točke A do točke B,
01:16
and you were an obstacle in his way,
27
64040
1776
a ti si mu bila prepreka na putu
01:17
so he had to replan his path,
28
65840
2016
pa je morao ponovno isplanirati svoj put,
01:19
figure out where to go,
29
67880
1256
shvatiti kuda ići
01:21
and then get there some other way,"
30
69160
1696
i onda stići tamo na neki drugi način",
01:22
which was actually
not a very efficient thing to do.
not a very efficient thing to do.
31
70880
2456
što, zapravo, nije vrlo učinkovito.
01:25
If that robot had figured out
that I was a person, not a chair,
that I was a person, not a chair,
32
73360
3256
Da je taj robot shvatio
da ja nisam stolica nego osoba,
da ja nisam stolica nego osoba,
01:28
and that I was willing
to get out of its way
to get out of its way
33
76640
2096
da sam mu se mogla maknuti s puta
01:30
if it was trying to get somewhere,
34
78760
1656
ako je pokušavao stići negdje,
01:32
then it actually
would have been more efficient
would have been more efficient
35
80440
2216
onda bi bio učinkovitiji
01:34
at getting its job done
36
82680
1256
u izvršavanju svoje zadaće,
01:35
if it had bothered
to notice that I was a human
to notice that I was a human
37
83960
2216
da se potrudio primijetiti da sam čovjek
01:38
and that I have different affordances
than things like chairs and walls do.
than things like chairs and walls do.
38
86200
3576
i da imam drukčiju pristupačnost
od stvari poput stolica i zidova.
od stvari poput stolica i zidova.
01:41
You know, we tend to think of these robots
as being from outer space
as being from outer space
39
89800
3216
Znate, volimo misliti o ovim robotima
kao o nečemu iz svemira,
kao o nečemu iz svemira,
01:45
and from the future
and from science fiction,
and from science fiction,
40
93040
2136
iz budućnosti i znanstvene fantastike,
01:47
and while that could be true,
41
95200
1416
no, dok to možda i jest istina,
01:48
I'd actually like to argue
that robots are here today,
that robots are here today,
42
96640
2656
zapravo tvrdim da su roboti ovdje danas
01:51
and they live and work
amongst us right now.
amongst us right now.
43
99320
2776
te da oni žive i rade među nama već sada.
01:54
These are two robots that live in my home.
44
102120
2856
Ova dva robota žive u mom domu.
01:57
They vacuum the floors
and they cut the grass
and they cut the grass
45
105000
2496
Usisavaju podove i kose travu
01:59
every single day,
46
107520
1216
svakog dana,
02:00
which is more than I would do
if I actually had time to do these tasks,
if I actually had time to do these tasks,
47
108760
3376
što je više nego što bih sama čistila
da zapravo imam vremena za te zadatke,
da zapravo imam vremena za te zadatke,
02:04
and they probably
do it better than I would, too.
do it better than I would, too.
48
112160
2336
a oni to vjerojatno rade bolje od mene.
02:06
This one actually takes care of my kitty.
49
114520
2496
Ovaj se zapravo brine za mog mačka.
02:09
Every single time
he uses the box, it cleans it,
he uses the box, it cleans it,
50
117040
2576
Svaki put kad on obavi nuždu
u pijesak, robot to počisti,
u pijesak, robot to počisti,
02:11
which is not something I'm willing to do,
51
119640
1976
jer to nije nešto što sam voljna raditi
02:13
and it actually makes
his life better as well as mine.
his life better as well as mine.
52
121640
2576
pa mu čini život lakšim kao i moj.
02:16
And while we call these robot products --
53
124240
2416
Iako zovemo te robote proizvodima;
02:18
it's a "robot vacuum cleaner,
it's a robot lawnmower,
it's a robot lawnmower,
54
126680
2696
"to je robotski usisavač",
"to je robotska kosilica",
"to je robotska kosilica",
02:21
it's a robot littler box,"
55
129400
1495
"to je robotska kutija s pijeskom",
02:22
I think there's actually a bunch
of other robots hiding in plain sight
of other robots hiding in plain sight
56
130919
4137
smatram da, zapravo, ima hrpa
drugih robota skrivenih na otvorenom
drugih robota skrivenih na otvorenom
02:27
that have just become so darn useful
57
135080
1856
koji su postali toliko vražje korisni
02:28
and so darn mundane
58
136960
1456
i toliko vražje svakodnevni,
02:30
that we call them things
like, "dishwasher," right?
like, "dishwasher," right?
59
138440
2496
da ih zovemo stvarima
poput "perilice posuđa", zar ne?
poput "perilice posuđa", zar ne?
02:32
They get new names.
60
140960
1216
Oni dobiju nova imena.
02:34
They don't get called robot anymore
61
142200
1696
Njih više ne zovemo robotima
02:35
because they actually
serve a purpose in our lives.
serve a purpose in our lives.
62
143920
2416
jer oni, zapravo,
imaju svrhu u našim životima.
imaju svrhu u našim životima.
02:38
Similarly, a thermostat, right?
63
146360
1496
Slično kao termostat, zar ne?
02:39
I know my robotics friends out there
64
147880
1776
Znam da su moji prijatelji robotičari
02:41
are probably cringing
at me calling this a robot,
at me calling this a robot,
65
149680
2336
vjerojatno sada ustuknuli
jer njega zovem robotom,
jer njega zovem robotom,
02:44
but it has a goal.
66
152040
1256
ali on ima cilj.
02:45
Its goal is to make my house
66 degrees Fahrenheit,
66 degrees Fahrenheit,
67
153320
2896
Njegov cilj je održavati
moju kuću toplom na 18°C
moju kuću toplom na 18°C
02:48
and it senses the world.
68
156240
1256
i on osjeća svijet.
02:49
It knows it's a little bit cold,
69
157520
1576
Zna da je zahladilo,
02:51
it makes a plan and then
it acts on the physical world.
it acts on the physical world.
70
159120
2616
napravi plan i onda
djeluje u fizičkom svijetu.
djeluje u fizičkom svijetu.
02:53
It's robotics.
71
161760
1256
To je robotika.
02:55
Even if it might not
look like Rosie the Robot,
look like Rosie the Robot,
72
163040
2576
Iako ne izgleda kao robot Rosie iz crtića,
02:57
it's doing something
that's really useful in my life
that's really useful in my life
73
165640
2936
on radi nešto uistinu korisno u mom životu
03:00
so I don't have to take care
74
168600
1376
da se ja ne moram brinuti
03:02
of turning the temperature
up and down myself.
up and down myself.
75
170000
2576
o pojačavanju ili smanjivanju temperature.
03:04
And I think these systems
live and work amongst us now,
live and work amongst us now,
76
172600
3816
Smatram da ovi sustavi
žive i rade među nama sada
žive i rade među nama sada
03:08
and not only are these systems
living amongst us
living amongst us
77
176440
2336
i ne samo da žive među nama,
03:10
but you are probably
a robot operator, too.
a robot operator, too.
78
178800
2656
nego vi njima, također,
vjerojatno i upravljate.
vjerojatno i upravljate.
03:13
When you drive your car,
79
181480
1256
Kad vozite svoj auto,
03:14
it feels like you are operating machinery.
80
182760
2216
imate osjećaj kao da
upravljate mašinerijom.
upravljate mašinerijom.
03:17
You are also going
from point A to point B,
from point A to point B,
81
185000
2816
Vozite od točke A do točke B,
03:19
but your car probably has power steering,
82
187840
2216
ali vaš auto vjerojatno
ima servo upravljanje,
ima servo upravljanje,
03:22
it probably has automatic braking systems,
83
190080
2696
vjerojatno ima automatsku kočnicu,
03:24
it might have an automatic transmission
and maybe even adaptive cruise control.
and maybe even adaptive cruise control.
84
192800
3736
možda ima automatski mjenjač i možda
ima prilagodljivu kontrolu upravljanja.
ima prilagodljivu kontrolu upravljanja.
03:28
And while it might not be
a fully autonomous car,
a fully autonomous car,
85
196560
2936
I dok možda nije potpuno autonoman auto,
03:31
it has bits of autonomy,
86
199520
1296
ima djeliće autonomije
03:32
and they're so useful
87
200840
1336
koji su toliko korisni
03:34
and they make us drive safer,
88
202200
1816
da vozimo sigurnije zbog njih,
03:36
and we just sort of feel
like they're invisible-in-use, right?
like they're invisible-in-use, right?
89
204040
3656
a jednostavno osjećamo
kao da su nevidljivi, zar ne?
kao da su nevidljivi, zar ne?
03:39
So when you're driving your car,
90
207720
1576
Tako da kad vozite
03:41
you should just feel like
you're going from one place to another.
you're going from one place to another.
91
209320
3096
trebali biste se osjećati kao
da idete od jednog mjesta prema drugom.
da idete od jednog mjesta prema drugom.
03:44
It doesn't feel like it's this big thing
that you have to deal with and operate
that you have to deal with and operate
92
212440
3736
Ne čini se kao da je to neka velika stvar
s kojom se morate nositi i upravljati
s kojom se morate nositi i upravljati
03:48
and use these controls
93
216200
1256
i koristiti ove kontrole,
03:49
because we spent so long
learning how to drive
learning how to drive
94
217480
2176
jer smo toliko vremena
proveli učeći kako voziti,
proveli učeći kako voziti,
03:51
that they've become
extensions of ourselves.
extensions of ourselves.
95
219680
2696
da su oni postali produžeci nas samih.
03:54
When you park that car
in that tight little garage space,
in that tight little garage space,
96
222400
2696
Kad parkirate taj auto
u ono usko mjesto u garaži,
u ono usko mjesto u garaži,
03:57
you know where your corners are.
97
225120
1576
znate gdje su vam uglovi.
03:58
And when you drive a rental car
that maybe you haven't driven before,
that maybe you haven't driven before,
98
226720
3256
Ali, onda kad vozite iznajmljeni auto
koji možda nikad niste vozili,
koji možda nikad niste vozili,
potrebno je neko vrijeme
da se naviknete na svoje robotsko tijelo.
da se naviknete na svoje robotsko tijelo.
04:02
it takes some time
to get used to your new robot body.
to get used to your new robot body.
99
230000
3056
04:05
And this is also true for people
who operate other types of robots,
who operate other types of robots,
100
233080
3976
To je istina i za ljude
koju upravljaju drugim vrstama robota,
koju upravljaju drugim vrstama robota,
04:09
so I'd like to share with you
a few stories about that.
a few stories about that.
101
237080
2600
zato bih htjela podijeliti s vama
par priča o tome.
par priča o tome.
04:12
Dealing with the problem
of remote collaboration.
of remote collaboration.
102
240240
2336
O nošenju s problemom udaljene suradnje.
04:14
So, at Willow Garage
I had a coworker named Dallas,
I had a coworker named Dallas,
103
242600
2576
Dakle, u Willow Garageu
imala sam kolegu zvanog Dallas
imala sam kolegu zvanog Dallas
04:17
and Dallas looked like this.
104
245200
1576
i Dallas je izgledao ovako.
04:18
He worked from his home in Indiana
in our company in California.
in our company in California.
105
246800
4056
Radio je od kuće u Indiani
u našoj tvrtci u Kaliforniji.
u našoj tvrtci u Kaliforniji.
04:22
He was a voice in a box
on the table in most of our meetings,
on the table in most of our meetings,
106
250880
2936
On je bio glas u kutiji
na stolu na većini naših sastanaka,
na stolu na većini naših sastanaka,
04:25
which was kind of OK
except that, you know,
except that, you know,
107
253840
2215
što je bilo u redu, osim što, znate,
ako bismo imali neku žestoku raspravu
i nije nam se sviđalo što bi govorio,
i nije nam se sviđalo što bi govorio,
04:28
if we had a really heated debate
and we didn't like what he was saying,
and we didn't like what he was saying,
108
256079
3377
04:31
we might just hang up on him.
109
259480
1416
samo bismo prekinuli poziv.
04:32
(Laughter)
110
260920
1015
(Smijeh)
Onda bismo mogli održati
sastanak nakon tog sastanka
sastanak nakon tog sastanka
04:33
Then we might have a meeting
after that meeting
after that meeting
111
261959
2217
04:36
and actually make the decisions
in the hallway afterwards
in the hallway afterwards
112
264200
2696
i, zapravo, donijeti odluke u hodniku,
kada njega više nije bilo.
04:38
when he wasn't there anymore.
113
266920
1416
Tako da to nije bilo baš super za njega.
04:40
So that wasn't so great for him.
114
268360
1576
A kao tvrtka robotike u Willowu,
04:41
And as a robotics company at Willow,
115
269960
1736
imali smo nekoliko
dodatnih dijelova robota uokolo,
dodatnih dijelova robota uokolo,
04:43
we had some extra
robot body parts laying around,
robot body parts laying around,
116
271720
2336
04:46
so Dallas and his buddy Curt
put together this thing,
put together this thing,
117
274080
2496
tako da su Dallas i njegov
prijatelj Curt sastavili ovo,
prijatelj Curt sastavili ovo,
04:48
which looks kind of
like Skype on a stick on wheels,
like Skype on a stick on wheels,
118
276600
2936
što izgleda poput Skypea
na štapu s kotačima,
na štapu s kotačima,
što se čini kao smiješna,
mehanička igračka,
mehanička igračka,
04:51
which seems like a techy, silly toy,
119
279560
1736
04:53
but really it's probably
one of the most powerful tools
one of the most powerful tools
120
281320
2776
ali stvarno je vjerojatno
jedan od najmoćnijih alata
jedan od najmoćnijih alata
koje sam ikad vidjela,
stvorenih za udaljenu suradnju.
stvorenih za udaljenu suradnju.
04:56
that I've seen ever made
for remote collaboration.
for remote collaboration.
121
284120
2480
04:59
So now, if I didn't answer
Dallas' email question,
Dallas' email question,
122
287160
3496
Pa tako, ako ne bih odgovorila
na Dallasovo pitanje u e-mailu,
na Dallasovo pitanje u e-mailu,
05:02
he could literally roll into my office,
123
290680
2216
on bi se mogao doslovno
dokotrljati u moj ured,
dokotrljati u moj ured,
05:04
block my doorway
and ask me the question again --
and ask me the question again --
124
292920
2576
blokirati mi izlazak i ponovno
mi postaviti pitanje...
mi postaviti pitanje...
05:07
(Laughter)
125
295520
1016
(Smijeh)
...dok mu ne bih odgovorila.
05:08
until I answered it.
126
296560
1216
05:09
And I'm not going to turn him off, right?
That's kind of rude.
That's kind of rude.
127
297800
2976
A ja ga neću ugasiti, zar ne?
To se čini pomalo nepristojnim.
To se čini pomalo nepristojnim.
05:12
Not only was it good
for these one-on-one communications,
for these one-on-one communications,
128
300800
2696
Ne samo da je bilo dobro za
ove razgovore jedan na jedan,
ove razgovore jedan na jedan,
05:15
but also for just showing up
at the company all-hands meeting.
at the company all-hands meeting.
129
303520
2936
već i za grupne sastanke u tvrtci.
05:18
Getting your butt in that chair
130
306480
1696
Dovući se na tu stolicu
05:20
and showing people that you're present
and committed to your project
and committed to your project
131
308200
3216
i pokazati ljudima da ste prisutni
i odani svom projektu
i odani svom projektu
05:23
is a big deal
132
311440
1256
je velika stvar
05:24
and can help remote collaboration a ton.
133
312720
2176
i može uvelike pomoći udaljenoj suradnji.
05:26
We saw this over the period
of months and then years,
of months and then years,
134
314920
2856
Vidjeli smo to u razdoblju
od par mjeseci, zatim i godina,
od par mjeseci, zatim i godina,
05:29
not only at our company
but at others, too.
but at others, too.
135
317800
2160
ne samo u našoj tvrtci već i u drugima.
Najbolja stvar koja se može
dogoditi s ovim sustavima
dogoditi s ovim sustavima
05:32
The best thing that can happen
with these systems
with these systems
136
320720
2336
05:35
is that it starts to feel
like you're just there.
like you're just there.
137
323080
2336
je to da se počnete
osjećati kao da ste tamo.
osjećati kao da ste tamo.
05:37
It's just you, it's just your body,
138
325440
1696
Vi ste tamo, vaše tijelo je tamo,
05:39
and so people actually start
to give these things personal space.
to give these things personal space.
139
327160
3096
tako da ljudi stvarno počinju
davati ovim stvarima osobni prostor.
davati ovim stvarima osobni prostor.
05:42
So when you're having a stand-up meeting,
140
330280
1976
Tako da kad imate stojeći sastanak,
ljudi će stajati uokolo,
05:44
people will stand around the space
141
332280
1656
baš kao što bi stajali da ste tamo uživo.
05:45
just as they would
if you were there in person.
if you were there in person.
142
333960
2216
To je odlično dok nema prekida,
a onda više nije.
a onda više nije.
05:48
That's great until
there's breakdowns and it's not.
there's breakdowns and it's not.
143
336200
2576
05:50
People, when they first see these robots,
144
338800
1976
Ljudi, kada prvi put vide ove robote,
05:52
are like, "Wow, where's the components?
There must be a camera over there,"
There must be a camera over there,"
145
340800
3576
počnu: "Vau, gdje su komponente?
Mora biti nekakva kamera ovdje negdje"
Mora biti nekakva kamera ovdje negdje"
i onda vam bockaju lice.
05:56
and they start poking your face.
146
344400
1576
"Pretiho govoriš, pojačat ću ti glasnoću",
05:58
"You're talking too softly,
I'm going to turn up your volume,"
I'm going to turn up your volume,"
147
346000
2936
što je isto kao da imate kolegu
koji vam priđe i kaže:
koji vam priđe i kaže:
06:00
which is like having a coworker
walk up to you and say,
walk up to you and say,
148
348960
2616
"Pretiho govoriš, pojačat ću ti lice".
06:03
"You're speaking too softly,
I'm going to turn up your face."
I'm going to turn up your face."
149
351600
2896
To je čudno i nije u redu,
06:06
That's awkward and not OK,
150
354520
1256
06:07
and so we end up having to build
these new social norms
these new social norms
151
355800
2616
tako da na kraju moramo
razviti nove društvene norme
razviti nove društvene norme
06:10
around using these systems.
152
358440
2216
kad koristimo ove sustave.
06:12
Similarly, as you start
feeling like it's your body,
feeling like it's your body,
153
360680
3416
Slično je kada se počnete
privikavati da je to vaše tijelo,
privikavati da je to vaše tijelo,
06:16
you start noticing things like,
"Oh, my robot is kind of short."
"Oh, my robot is kind of short."
154
364120
3696
počnete primjećivati stvari poput:
"Ah, moj robot je nekako kratak".
"Ah, moj robot je nekako kratak".
06:19
Dallas would say things to me --
he was six-foot tall --
he was six-foot tall --
155
367840
2656
Dallas bi mi znao govoriti --
visok je 1,80 m --
visok je 1,80 m --
06:22
and we would take him via robot
to cocktail parties and things like that,
to cocktail parties and things like that,
156
370520
3456
i vodili bismo ga putem robota
na koktel partije i slično,
na koktel partije i slično,
06:26
as you do,
157
374000
1216
normalno,
06:27
and the robot was about five-foot-tall,
which is close to my height.
which is close to my height.
158
375240
3336
a robot je bio visok otprilike 1,50 m,
što je bliže mojoj visini.
što je bliže mojoj visini.
06:30
And he would tell me,
159
378600
1216
I on bi mi govorio:
06:31
"You know, people are not
really looking at me.
really looking at me.
160
379840
2536
"Znaš, ljudi zapravo ni
ne gledaju na mene.
ne gledaju na mene.
06:34
I feel like I'm just looking
at this sea of shoulders,
at this sea of shoulders,
161
382400
2696
Osjećam se kao da
gledam u ovo more ramena,
gledam u ovo more ramena,
06:37
and it's just -- we need a taller robot."
162
385120
1976
a to je... treba nam viši robot".
06:39
And I told him,
163
387120
1256
Ja bih mu rekla:
06:40
"Um, no.
164
388400
1296
"Hm, ne.
06:41
You get to walk in my shoes for today.
165
389720
1936
Vidjet ćeš danas kako je meni inače.
06:43
You get to see what it's like
to be on the shorter end of the spectrum."
to be on the shorter end of the spectrum."
166
391680
3536
Vidjet ćeš kako je to biti nizak".
06:47
And he actually ended up building
a lot of empathy for that experience,
a lot of empathy for that experience,
167
395240
3376
On je na kraju razvio veliku
empatiju tijekom tog iskustva,
empatiju tijekom tog iskustva,
06:50
which was kind of great.
168
398640
1256
što je bilo super.
06:51
So when he'd come visit in person,
169
399920
1656
Tako da kad bi došao uživo u posjet,
06:53
he no longer stood over me
as he was talking to me,
as he was talking to me,
170
401600
2416
više ne bi stajao nada mnom
kad bi mi govorio,
kad bi mi govorio,
06:56
he would sit down
and talk to me eye to eye,
and talk to me eye to eye,
171
404040
2096
sjeo bi i govorio sa mnom u razini očiju,
06:58
which was kind of a beautiful thing.
172
406160
1736
što je bilo predivno.
Tako da smo, zapravo, odlučili
pogledati to u laboratoriju
pogledati to u laboratoriju
06:59
So we actually decided
to look at this in the laboratory
to look at this in the laboratory
173
407920
2656
i vidjeti kakve se druge vrste stvari,
poput visine robota, mogu napraviti.
poput visine robota, mogu napraviti.
07:02
and see what others kinds of differences
things like robot height would make.
things like robot height would make.
174
410600
3656
Pa je pola ljudi u našem istraživanju
koristilo kraćeg robota,
koristilo kraćeg robota,
07:06
And so half of the people in our study
used a shorter robot,
used a shorter robot,
175
414280
2856
07:09
half of the people in our study
used a taller robot
used a taller robot
176
417160
2416
a druga polovica višeg robota.
07:11
and we actually found
that the exact same person
that the exact same person
177
419600
2256
Otkrili smo da će ista osoba
07:13
who has the exact same body
and says the exact same things as someone,
and says the exact same things as someone,
178
421880
3336
koja ima isto tijelo
i govori iste stvari kao netko,
i govori iste stvari kao netko,
07:17
is more persuasive
and perceived as being more credible
and perceived as being more credible
179
425240
2616
biti uvjerljivija i doimati se
vjerodostojnijom
vjerodostojnijom
07:19
if they're in a taller robot form.
180
427880
1656
ako je u višem robotskom obliku.
07:21
It makes no rational sense,
181
429560
1816
Racionalno to nema smisla,
07:23
but that's why we study psychology.
182
431400
1696
ali zato proučavamo psihologiju.
07:25
And really, you know,
the way that Cliff Nass would put this
the way that Cliff Nass would put this
183
433120
2856
I, znate, kao što bi to Cliff Nass rekao,
07:28
is that we're having to deal
with these new technologies
with these new technologies
184
436000
3016
suočavamo se s ovim novim tehnologijama,
07:31
despite the fact
that we have very old brains.
that we have very old brains.
185
439040
2736
unatoč činjenici da imamo
vrlo stare mozgove.
vrlo stare mozgove.
Ljudska psihologija se ne mijenja
istom brzinom kao tehnologija,
istom brzinom kao tehnologija,
07:33
Human psychology is not changing
at the same speed that tech is
at the same speed that tech is
186
441800
2976
07:36
and so we're always playing catch-up,
187
444800
1816
tako da je stalno nastojimo sustići,
pokušavajući pronaći smisao svijeta
07:38
trying to make sense of this world
188
446640
1656
07:40
where these autonomous things
are running around.
are running around.
189
448320
2336
u kojem smo okruženi
ovim autonomnim stvarima.
ovim autonomnim stvarima.
07:42
Usually, things that talk are people,
not machines, right?
not machines, right?
190
450680
2736
Uobičajeno, ljudi su ti koji govore,
ne strojevi, zar ne?
ne strojevi, zar ne?
07:45
And so we breathe a lot of meaning
into things like just height of a machine,
into things like just height of a machine,
191
453440
4576
Stoga dodajemo mnogo značenja
stvarima poput visine stroja,
stvarima poput visine stroja,
07:50
not a person,
192
458040
1256
ne osobe,
07:51
and attribute that
to the person using the system.
to the person using the system.
193
459320
2360
i pripisujemo to osobi
koja koristi sustav.
koja koristi sustav.
07:55
You know, this, I think,
is really important
is really important
194
463120
2216
Znate, smatram da je ovo uistinu važno
07:57
when you're thinking about robotics.
195
465360
1736
kad razmišljate o robotici.
Ne radi se tu toliko
o rekonstrukciji čovjeka,
o rekonstrukciji čovjeka,
07:59
It's not so much about reinventing humans,
196
467120
2096
08:01
it's more about figuring out
how we extend ourselves, right?
how we extend ourselves, right?
197
469240
3136
nego više o tome kako
proširiti sebe, zar ne?
proširiti sebe, zar ne?
08:04
And we end up using things
in ways that are sort of surprising.
in ways that are sort of surprising.
198
472400
2976
Na kraju koristimo stvari
na načine koji su iznenađujući.
na načine koji su iznenađujući.
08:07
So these guys can't play pool
because the robots don't have arms,
because the robots don't have arms,
199
475400
4256
Dakle, ovi momci ne mogu igrati
biljar jer roboti nemaju ruke,
biljar jer roboti nemaju ruke,
08:11
but they can heckle the guys
who are playing pool
who are playing pool
200
479680
2336
ali mogu provocirati
momke koji igraju biljar
momke koji igraju biljar
08:14
and that can be an important thing
for team bonding,
for team bonding,
201
482040
3176
i to može biti važna stvar
kod timskog zbližavanja,
kod timskog zbližavanja,
08:17
which is kind of neat.
202
485240
1296
što je zgodno.
Ljudi koji postanu zbilja dobri
u upravljanju tim sustavima,
u upravljanju tim sustavima,
08:18
People who get really good
at operating these systems
at operating these systems
203
486560
2496
08:21
will even do things
like make up new games,
like make up new games,
204
489080
2056
smislit će stvari poput novih igara,
08:23
like robot soccer
in the middle of the night,
in the middle of the night,
205
491160
2136
kao, recimo, robotski nogomet usred noći,
gurajući uokolo kante za smeće.
08:25
pushing the trash cans around.
206
493320
1456
08:26
But not everyone's good.
207
494800
1576
No, nisu svi dobri u tome.
Dosta ljudi ima problema
s upravljanjem tim sustavima.
s upravljanjem tim sustavima.
08:28
A lot of people have trouble
operating these systems.
operating these systems.
208
496400
2496
08:30
This is actually a guy
who logged into the robot
who logged into the robot
209
498920
2256
Ovo je, zapravo, lik
koji se ulogirao u robota
koji se ulogirao u robota
i oko mu je bilo okrenuto za 90° ulijevo.
08:33
and his eyeball was turned
90 degrees to the left.
90 degrees to the left.
210
501200
2376
On to nije znao,
08:35
He didn't know that,
211
503600
1256
pa se na kraju sudarao sa svime u uredu,
08:36
so he ended up just bashing
around the office,
around the office,
212
504880
2176
zalijetao ljudima u stolove,
postalo mu je neugodno,
postalo mu je neugodno,
08:39
running into people's desks,
getting super embarrassed,
getting super embarrassed,
213
507080
2616
smijao se tome - glasnoća
mu je bila previsoka.
mu je bila previsoka.
08:41
laughing about it --
his volume was way too high.
his volume was way too high.
214
509720
2336
08:44
And this guy here
in the image is telling me,
in the image is telling me,
215
512080
2136
A ovaj lik ovdje na slici mi govori:
08:46
"We need a robot mute button."
216
514240
2096
"Treba nam gumb za utišavanje robota".
08:48
And by that what he really meant
was we don't want it to be so disruptive.
was we don't want it to be so disruptive.
217
516360
3496
Time je mislio reći da ne želimo
da bude toliko ometajući.
da bude toliko ometajući.
08:51
So as a robotics company,
218
519880
1616
Tako da smo kao tvrtka robotike
08:53
we added some obstacle
avoidance to the system.
avoidance to the system.
219
521520
2456
dodali izbjegavanje prepreka u sustav.
Dobio je mali laserski daljinometar
koji bi mogao vidjeti prepreke,
koji bi mogao vidjeti prepreke,
08:56
It got a little laser range finder
that could see the obstacles,
that could see the obstacles,
220
524000
3056
tako da kad bih ja, kao upravitelj
robota, rekla da se zabije u stolicu,
robota, rekla da se zabije u stolicu,
08:59
and if I as a robot operator
try to say, run into a chair,
try to say, run into a chair,
221
527080
3136
09:02
it wouldn't let me,
it would just plan a path around,
it would just plan a path around,
222
530240
2496
ne bi mi dozvolio, nego bi
isplanirao put koji vodi okolo,
isplanirao put koji vodi okolo,
09:04
which seems like a good idea.
223
532760
1856
što se čini kao bolja ideja.
09:06
People did hit fewer obstacles
using that system, obviously,
using that system, obviously,
224
534640
3176
Ljudi su se, naravno, manje
sudarali koristeći taj sustav,
sudarali koristeći taj sustav,
09:09
but actually, for some of the people,
225
537840
2096
no, zapravo, za neke ljude,
09:11
it took them a lot longer
to get through our obstacle course,
to get through our obstacle course,
226
539960
2856
trebalo je puno više vremena
da prođu cijeli poligon s preprekama
da prođu cijeli poligon s preprekama
09:14
and we wanted to know why.
227
542840
1560
pa smo htjeli znati zašto.
09:17
It turns out that there's
this important human dimension --
this important human dimension --
228
545080
3056
Ispalo je da tu postoji
važna ljudska dimenzija;
važna ljudska dimenzija;
09:20
a personality dimension
called locus of control,
called locus of control,
229
548160
2296
dimenzija osobnosti zvana lokus kontrole,
09:22
and people who have
a strong internal locus of control,
a strong internal locus of control,
230
550480
3136
stoga ljudi koji imaju
snažan unutarnji lokus kontrole,
snažan unutarnji lokus kontrole,
09:25
they need to be the masters
of their own destiny --
of their own destiny --
231
553640
3056
moraju biti upravitelji svojih sudbina
09:28
really don't like giving up control
to an autonomous system --
to an autonomous system --
232
556720
3096
i stvarno ne žele predati
kontrolu autonomnom sustavu,
kontrolu autonomnom sustavu,
09:31
so much so that they will
fight the autonomy;
fight the autonomy;
233
559840
2136
toliko da će se boriti s autonomijom.
09:34
"If I want to hit that chair,
I'm going to hit that chair."
I'm going to hit that chair."
234
562000
3096
"Ako se ja želim sudariti
s tom stolicom, ja ću se sudariti".
s tom stolicom, ja ću se sudariti".
09:37
And so they would actually suffer
from having that autonomous assistance,
from having that autonomous assistance,
235
565120
3616
Tako da bi oni zapravo patili kad
bi imali tu autonomnu potporu.
bi imali tu autonomnu potporu.
09:40
which is an important thing for us to know
236
568760
2576
Što je važno za nas da znamo,
09:43
as we're building increasingly
autonomous, say, cars, right?
autonomous, say, cars, right?
237
571360
3296
budući da gradimo izrazito
automomne aute, recimo. Zar ne?
automomne aute, recimo. Zar ne?
09:46
How are different people going
to grapple with that loss of control?
to grapple with that loss of control?
238
574680
3360
Kako će se različiti ljudi nositi
s tim gubitkom kontrole?
s tim gubitkom kontrole?
09:50
It's going to be different
depending on human dimensions.
depending on human dimensions.
239
578880
2696
To će biti različito ovisno
o ljudskim dimenzijama.
o ljudskim dimenzijama.
09:53
We can't treat humans
as if we're just one monolithic thing.
as if we're just one monolithic thing.
240
581600
3496
Ne možemo tretirati ljude kao
da smo neka monolitna stvar.
da smo neka monolitna stvar.
09:57
We vary by personality, by culture,
241
585120
2416
Razlikujemo se po osobnosti, kulturi,
čak i po emocionalnom stanju
od trenutka do trenutka,
od trenutka do trenutka,
09:59
we even vary by emotional state
moment to moment,
moment to moment,
242
587560
2456
a biti u mogućnosti osmisliti ove sustave,
10:02
and being able to design these systems,
243
590040
1976
10:04
these human-robot interaction systems,
244
592040
2296
ove sustave komunikacije
između čovjeka i robota,
između čovjeka i robota,
10:06
we need to take into account
the human dimensions,
the human dimensions,
245
594360
2736
moramo uzeti u obzir ljudske dimenzije,
10:09
not just the technological ones.
246
597120
1720
ne samo tehnološke.
10:11
Along with a sense of control
also comes a sense of responsibility.
also comes a sense of responsibility.
247
599640
4296
S osjećajem kontrole
dolazi i osjećaj odgovornosti.
dolazi i osjećaj odgovornosti.
Kad biste bili upravitelj robota
koji koristi neke od ovih sustava,
koji koristi neke od ovih sustava,
10:15
And if you were a robot operator
using one of these systems,
using one of these systems,
248
603960
2856
10:18
this is what the interface
would look like.
would look like.
249
606840
2056
ovako bi sučelje izgledalo.
10:20
It looks a little bit like a video game,
250
608920
1936
Nalikuje malo na videoigru,
10:22
which can be good because
that's very familiar to people,
that's very familiar to people,
251
610880
2976
što može biti pozitivno
jer je to poznato ljudima,
jer je to poznato ljudima,
10:25
but it can also be bad
252
613880
1216
no, može biti i loše
10:27
because it makes people feel
like it's a video game.
like it's a video game.
253
615120
2456
jer se onda ljudi osjećaju
kao da su u videoigri.
kao da su u videoigri.
Imali smo hrpu djece na Stanfordu
koja su se igrala time
koja su se igrala time
10:29
We had a bunch of kids
over at Stanford play with the system
over at Stanford play with the system
254
617600
2856
10:32
and drive the robot
around our office in Menlo Park,
around our office in Menlo Park,
255
620480
2456
i vozila robota uokolo
u našem uredu u Menlo Parku,
u našem uredu u Menlo Parku,
i djeca bi govorila stvari poput:
10:34
and the kids started saying things like,
256
622960
1936
"10 bodova ako pogodiš
onog lika tamo. 20 za onog ondje".
onog lika tamo. 20 za onog ondje".
10:36
"10 points if you hit that guy over there.
20 points for that one."
20 points for that one."
257
624920
3176
I onda bi ih lovili po hodniku.
10:40
And they would
chase them down the hallway.
chase them down the hallway.
258
628120
2016
10:42
(Laughter)
259
630160
1016
(Smijeh)
10:43
I told them, "Um, those are real people.
260
631200
1936
Rekla bih im: "To su prave osobe.
10:45
They're actually going to bleed
and feel pain if you hit them."
and feel pain if you hit them."
261
633160
3296
Oni će zaista krvariti i
osjećati bol ako ih pogodite".
osjećati bol ako ih pogodite".
I oni bi na to: "U redu, shvaćamo".
10:48
And they'd be like, "OK, got it."
262
636480
1616
10:50
But five minutes later,
they would be like,
they would be like,
263
638120
2056
Ali pet minuta poslije, oni bi opet:
"20 bodova za onog lika tamo, taj
baš izgleda kao da ga se treba pogoditi".
baš izgleda kao da ga se treba pogoditi".
10:52
"20 points for that guy over there,
he just looks like he needs to get hit."
he just looks like he needs to get hit."
264
640200
3616
Podsjeća malo na "Enderovu igru", zar ne?
10:55
It's a little bit
like "Ender's Game," right?
like "Ender's Game," right?
265
643840
2136
Postoji stvarni svijet
na toj drugoj strani
na toj drugoj strani
10:58
There is a real world on that other side
266
646000
1936
i smatram da je naša odgovornost
kao ljudi koji osmišljavaju ta sučelja
kao ljudi koji osmišljavaju ta sučelja
10:59
and I think it's our responsibility
as people designing these interfaces
as people designing these interfaces
267
647960
3416
da pomognu ljudima zapamtiti
11:03
to help people remember
268
651400
1256
da postoje stvarne posljedice
njihovih djelovanja
njihovih djelovanja
11:04
that there's real consequences
to their actions
to their actions
269
652680
2256
11:06
and to feel a sense of responsibility
270
654960
2296
i da osjećaju odgovornost
11:09
when they're operating
these increasingly autonomous things.
these increasingly autonomous things.
271
657280
3280
kad upravljaju ovim
sve više autonomnim stvarima.
sve više autonomnim stvarima.
11:13
These are kind of a great example
272
661840
2296
Ovi su, recimo, sjajan primjer
11:16
of experimenting with one
possible robotic future,
possible robotic future,
273
664160
3256
eksperimentiranja s jednom od
mogućih budućnosti robota,
mogućih budućnosti robota,
11:19
and I think it's pretty cool
that we can extend ourselves
that we can extend ourselves
274
667440
3856
i smatram da je stvarno kul
što možemo produžiti svoje djelovanje
što možemo produžiti svoje djelovanje
11:23
and learn about the ways
that we extend ourselves
that we extend ourselves
275
671320
2336
i učiti o načinima toga
11:25
into these machines
276
673680
1216
u ovim strojevima,
dok u isto vrijeme imamo
mogućnost izraziti svoju čovječnost
mogućnost izraziti svoju čovječnost
11:26
while at the same time
being able to express our humanity
being able to express our humanity
277
674920
2696
11:29
and our personality.
278
677640
1216
i svoju osobnost.
11:30
We also build empathy for others
279
678880
1576
Također gradimo empatiju za druge
11:32
in terms of being
shorter, taller, faster, slower,
shorter, taller, faster, slower,
280
680480
3216
tako što postajemo
niži, viši, brži, sporiji,
niži, viši, brži, sporiji,
11:35
and maybe even armless,
281
683720
1416
možda čak i bezruki,
11:37
which is kind of neat.
282
685160
1336
što je nekako zgodno.
11:38
We also build empathy
for the robots themselves.
for the robots themselves.
283
686520
2536
Također gradimo empatiju za same robote.
Ovo je jedan od mojih omiljenih robota.
11:41
This is one of my favorite robots.
284
689080
1656
11:42
It's called the Tweenbot.
285
690760
1456
Zove se Tweenbot.
11:44
And this guy has a little flag that says,
286
692240
1976
Ima zastavicu na kojoj piše:
"Pokušavam doći do
ovog raskrižja na Manhattanu".
ovog raskrižja na Manhattanu".
11:46
"I'm trying to get
to this intersection in Manhattan,"
to this intersection in Manhattan,"
287
694240
2576
11:48
and it's cute and rolls
forward, that's it.
forward, that's it.
288
696840
2776
Sladak je i kotrlja se
unaprijed, to je sve.
unaprijed, to je sve.
11:51
It doesn't know how to build a map,
it doesn't know how to see the world,
it doesn't know how to see the world,
289
699640
3456
Ne zna kako mapirati,
ne zna kako vidjeti svijet,
ne zna kako vidjeti svijet,
11:55
it just asks for help.
290
703120
1256
samo traži upute.
11:56
The nice thing about people
291
704400
1336
Lijepa stvar kod ljudi je
11:57
is that it can actually depend
upon the kindness of strangers.
upon the kindness of strangers.
292
705760
3096
da se, zapravo, može oslanjati
na ljubaznost stranaca.
na ljubaznost stranaca.
12:00
It did make it across the park
to the other side of Manhattan --
to the other side of Manhattan --
293
708880
3896
On je uspio stići preko parka
na drugu stranu Manhattana,
na drugu stranu Manhattana,
12:04
which is pretty great --
294
712800
1256
što je odlično,
samo zato što bi ga ljudi podigli
i usmjerili u pravom smjeru.
i usmjerili u pravom smjeru.
12:06
just because people would pick it up
and point it in the right direction.
and point it in the right direction.
295
714080
3456
(Smijeh)
12:09
(Laughter)
296
717560
936
To je super, zar ne?
12:10
And that's great, right?
297
718520
1256
12:11
We're trying to build
this human-robot world
this human-robot world
298
719800
2696
Pokušavamo izgraditi
svijet ljudi i robota,
svijet ljudi i robota,
12:14
in which we can coexist
and collaborate with one another,
and collaborate with one another,
299
722520
3416
u kojem možemo supostojati
i surađivati jedni s drugima
i surađivati jedni s drugima
12:17
and we don't need to be fully autonomous
and just do things on our own.
and just do things on our own.
300
725960
3376
pa ne moramo biti posve autonomni
i samo raditi na svoj način.
i samo raditi na svoj način.
Zapravo možemo raditi stvari zajedno.
12:21
We actually do things together.
301
729360
1496
12:22
And to make that happen,
302
730880
1256
Da bismo to postigli,
12:24
we actually need help from people
like the artists and the designers,
like the artists and the designers,
303
732160
3256
stvarno trebamo pomoć ljudi
poput umjetnika i dizajnera,
poput umjetnika i dizajnera,
kreatora politike, pravnika,
12:27
the policy makers, the legal scholars,
304
735440
1856
12:29
psychologists, sociologists,
anthropologists --
anthropologists --
305
737320
2216
psihologa, sociologa, antropologa,
treba nam više perspektiva u prostoriji,
12:31
we need more perspectives in the room
306
739560
1816
12:33
if we're going to do the thing
that Stu Card says we should do,
that Stu Card says we should do,
307
741400
2976
ako ćemo učiniti ono što nam je
Stu Card rekao da bismo trebali,
Stu Card rekao da bismo trebali,
12:36
which is invent the future
that we actually want to live in.
that we actually want to live in.
308
744400
3936
a to je stvaranje budućnosti
u kojoj uistinu želimo živjeti.
u kojoj uistinu želimo živjeti.
12:40
And I think we can continue to experiment
309
748360
2656
I smatram da možemo
nastaviti eksperimentirati
nastaviti eksperimentirati
12:43
with these different
robotic futures together,
robotic futures together,
310
751040
2176
s ovim različitim
budućnostima robota zajedno
budućnostima robota zajedno
12:45
and in doing so, we will end up
learning a lot more about ourselves.
learning a lot more about ourselves.
311
753240
4680
i na taj način naučiti
puno više o sebi samima.
puno više o sebi samima.
12:50
Thank you.
312
758720
1216
Hvala vam.
12:51
(Applause)
313
759960
2440
(Pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Leila Takayama - Social scientistLeila Takayama conducts research on human-robot interaction.
Why you should listen
Leila Takayama is an acting associate professor of Psychology at the University of California, Santa Cruz, where she founded and leads the Re-Embodied Cognition Lab. Her lab examines how people make sense of, interact with, and relate to new technologies. Prior to academia, she was a researcher at GoogleX and Willow Garage, where she developed a taste for working alongside engineers, designers, animators, and more. Her interdisciplinary research continues in her current work on what happens when people interact with robots and through robots.
Takayama is a World Economic Forum Global Futures Council Member and Young Global Leader. In 2015, she was presented the IEEE Robotics & Automation Society Early Career Award. In 2012, she was named a TR35 winner and one of the 100 most creative people in business by Fast Company. She completed her PhD in Communication at Stanford University in 2008, advised by Professor Clifford Nass. She also holds a PhD minor in Psychology from Stanford, a master's degree in Communication from Stanford, and bachelor's of arts degrees in Psychology and Cognitive Science from UC Berkeley (2003). During her graduate studies, she was a research assistant in the User Interface Research (UIR) group at Palo Alto Research Center (PARC).
Photo: Melissa DeWitt
Leila Takayama | Speaker | TED.com