TED2003
Dan Dennett: The illusion of consciousness
Dan Dennet: Dan Dennett o zavesti
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Readability: 3.2
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Filozof Dan Dennett prepričljivo pojasni: ne samo, da ne razumemo lastne zavesti, polovico časa nas imajo naši možgani aktivno za norca.
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientist
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:26
So I'm going to speak about a problem that I have
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Povedal vam bo nekaj o svoji težavi.
00:29
and that's that I'm a philosopher.
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Problem je v tem, da sem filozof.
00:32
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
00:34
When I go to a party and people ask me what do I do
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Ko grem na zabavo in me ljudje vprašajo,
s čim se ukvarjam,
s čim se ukvarjam,
00:37
and I say, "I'm a professor," their eyes glaze over.
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povem: "Profesor sem."
V odziv dobim odsotne poglede.
V odziv dobim odsotne poglede.
00:42
When I go to an academic cocktail party
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Ko grem na sprejem za akademike
00:44
and there are all the professors around, they ask me what field I'm in
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in so zraven vsi profesorji,
vprašajo, na katerem področju delam.
vprašajo, na katerem področju delam.
00:48
and I say, "philosophy" -- their eyes glaze over.
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Povem, da je to filozofija,
in v odziv dobim odsotne poglede.
in v odziv dobim odsotne poglede.
00:51
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
00:53
When I go to a philosopher's party
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Ko grem na zabavo filozofov,
00:56
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
00:59
and they ask me what I work on and I say, "consciousness,"
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me vprašajo, na čem delam.
Povem: "Na zavesti."
Povem: "Na zavesti."
01:03
their eyes don't glaze over -- their lips curl into a snarl.
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Njihov pogled ni odsoten -
renčati začnejo.
renčati začnejo.
01:08
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
01:09
And I get hoots of derision and cackles and growls
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Požanjem posmeh, hehet in renčanje,
01:15
because they think, "That's impossible! You can't explain consciousness."
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ker si mislijo: "To ni mogoče.
Ne moreš razložiti zavesti."
Ne moreš razložiti zavesti."
01:20
The very chutzpah of somebody thinking
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Predrznost, da bi si kdo upal misliti,
01:22
that you could explain consciousness is just out of the question.
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da lahko razloži zavest,
ne pride v poštev.
ne pride v poštev.
01:26
My late, lamented friend Bob Nozick, a fine philosopher,
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Moj žal preminuli prijatelj Bob Nozick,
odlični filozof,
odlični filozof,
01:30
in one of his books, "Philosophical Explanations,"
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je v svoji knjigi "Filozofske razlage"
01:34
is commenting on the ethos of philosophy --
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komentiral etos filozofije,
01:39
the way philosophers go about their business.
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kako se filozofi lotevajo svojega dela.
01:41
And he says, you know, "Philosophers love rational argument."
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Pravi, veste, da filozofi
ljubijo racionalne argumente.
ljubijo racionalne argumente.
01:45
And he says, "It seems as if the ideal argument
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Trdi tole: "Zdi se, da je idealni argument
01:47
for most philosophers is you give your audience the premises
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za večino filozofov to,
da občinstvu dajo tezo,
da občinstvu dajo tezo,
01:53
and then you give them the inferences and the conclusion,
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potem sklep in nato zaključek
01:58
and if they don't accept the conclusion, they die.
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in če njihov zaključek ni sprejet, umrejo.
02:02
Their heads explode." The idea is to have an argument
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Glavo jim raznese." Treba je
imeti argument,
imeti argument,
02:05
that is so powerful that it knocks out your opponents.
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ki je tako močan, da uniči nasprotnika.
02:09
But in fact that doesn't change people's minds at all.
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A v resnici to sploh ne spremeni
mnenja ljudi.
mnenja ljudi.
02:12
It's very hard to change people's minds
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Težko spremeniš mnenja
02:13
about something like consciousness,
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o nečem takem, kot je zavest
02:15
and I finally figured out the reason for that.
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in končno sem ugotovil,
zakaj je temu tako.
zakaj je temu tako.
02:20
The reason for that is that everybody's an expert on consciousness.
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Razlog je v tem, da smo vsi
strokovnjaki za zavest.
strokovnjaki za zavest.
02:24
We heard the other day that everybody's got a strong opinion about video games.
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Zadnjič smo slišali, da ima vsak
svoje mnenje o video igrah.
svoje mnenje o video igrah.
02:28
They all have an idea for a video game, even if they're not experts.
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Imajo idejo za video igro,
čeprav niso strokovnjaki.
čeprav niso strokovnjaki.
02:31
But they don't consider themselves experts on video games;
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In se tudi nimajo za strokovnjake
za video igre,
za video igre,
le trdna prepričanja imajo.
02:34
they've just got strong opinions.
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02:35
I'm sure that people here who work on, say, climate change
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Prepričan sem, da se ljudje,
ki se ukvarjajo s podnebnimi spremembami
ki se ukvarjajo s podnebnimi spremembami
02:40
and global warming, or on the future of the Internet,
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in globalnim segrevanjem
ali s prihodnostjo interneta,
ali s prihodnostjo interneta,
02:45
encounter people who have very strong opinions
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srečujejo ljudi z zelo trdnimi prepričanji
02:47
about what's going to happen next.
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o tem, kaj se bo zgodilo.
02:50
But they probably don't think of these opinions as expertise.
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A verjetno teh stališč
nimajo za strokovno znanje.
nimajo za strokovno znanje.
02:54
They're just strongly held opinions.
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To so samo globoka prepričanja.
02:56
But with regard to consciousness, people seem to think,
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Ko pride do zavesti,
se zdi, da ljudje mislijo,
se zdi, da ljudje mislijo,
03:00
each of us seems to think, "I am an expert.
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vsak od nas misli: "Strokovnjak sem.
03:03
Simply by being conscious, I know all about this."
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Ker sem pri zavesti, vem vse o tem."
03:06
And so, you tell them your theory and they say,
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Poveste jim svojo teorijo in rekli bodo:
03:08
"No, no, that's not the way consciousness is!
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"Ne, zavest ni taka!
03:09
No, you've got it all wrong."
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Popolnoma se motite."
03:11
And they say this with an amazing confidence.
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In to pravijo neverjetno samozavestno.
03:15
And so what I'm going to try to do today
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Danes bom torej poskusil
03:17
is to shake your confidence. Because I know the feeling --
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skrhati vašo samozavest.
Saj poznam ta občutek.
Saj poznam ta občutek.
03:20
I can feel it myself.
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Tudi sam ga imam.
03:22
I want to shake your confidence that you know your own innermost minds --
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Omajati hočem vaše prepričanje,
da poznate svoj najbolj notranji um,
da poznate svoj najbolj notranji um,
03:28
that you are, yourselves, authoritative about your own consciousness.
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da imate nadzor nad svojo zavestjo.
03:33
That's the order of the day here.
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To je danes na dnevnem redu.
03:36
Now, this nice picture shows a thought-balloon, a thought-bubble.
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Tale slika kaže miselni balon,
miselni mehurček.
miselni mehurček.
03:39
I think everybody understands what that means.
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Mislim, da vsi vemo, kaj to pomeni.
03:41
That's supposed to exhibit the stream of consciousness.
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Prikazovalo naj bi tok zavesti.
03:44
This is my favorite picture of consciousness that's ever been done.
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To je moja najljubša slika zavesti.
03:46
It's a Saul Steinberg of course -- it was a New Yorker cover.
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Gre seveda za Saula Steinberga -
za naslovnico New Yorkerja.
za naslovnico New Yorkerja.
03:49
And this fellow here is looking at the painting by Braque.
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Tale možakar gleda Braquovo sliko.
03:54
That reminds him of the word baroque, barrack, bark, poodle,
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Spominja ga na barok, barako,
lajež (bark), pudlja,
lajež (bark), pudlja,
03:58
Suzanne R. -- he's off to the races.
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Suzanne R. - in tok ga odpelje.
04:00
There's a wonderful stream of consciousness here
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Tu gre za čudovit tok zavesti
04:04
and if you follow it along, you learn a lot about this man.
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in če mu sledite,
se naučite veliko o tem možu.
se naučite veliko o tem možu.
04:08
What I particularly like about this picture, too,
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Pri tej sliki mi je posebej všeč,
04:10
is that Steinberg has rendered the guy
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da je Steinberg tipa napravil
04:12
in this sort of pointillist style.
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v tem točkastem stilu.
04:15
Which reminds us, as Rod Brooks was saying yesterday:
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To nas spominja, kakor je Rod Brooks
včeraj omenil,
včeraj omenil,
04:18
what we are, what each of us is -- what you are, what I am --
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na to, kaj smo, kaj je vsak od nas -
kaj ste vi, kaj sem jaz,
kaj ste vi, kaj sem jaz,
04:22
is approximately 100 trillion little cellular robots.
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to je: približno sto trilijonov
majhnih celičnih robotov.
majhnih celičnih robotov.
04:28
That's what we're made of.
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Iz tega smo narejeni.
04:30
No other ingredients at all. We're just made of cells, about 100 trillion of them.
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Brez drugih sestavin. Samo celice smo,
okoli sto trilijonov le-teh.
okoli sto trilijonov le-teh.
04:34
Not a single one of those cells is conscious;
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Niti ena od teh celic nima zavesti;
04:36
not a single one of those cells knows who you are, or cares.
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niti ena od njih ne ve, kdo ste vi,
niti ji to ni mar.
niti ji to ni mar.
04:41
Somehow, we have to explain
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Nekako pa moramo razložiti,
04:43
how when you put together teams, armies, battalions
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kako, ko sestavimo ekipe,
vojske, bataljone
vojske, bataljone
04:47
of hundreds of millions of little robotic unconscious cells --
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stotin milijonov majhnih
robotskih celic brez zavesti,
robotskih celic brez zavesti,
04:51
not so different really from a bacterium, each one of them --
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ki vsaka zase niso
tako drugačne od bakterije,
tako drugačne od bakterije,
04:55
the result is this. I mean, just look at it.
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kako je rezultat lahko tole.
Samo poglejte.
Samo poglejte.
04:59
The content -- there's color, there's ideas, there's memories,
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Vsebina - barva, ideje, spomini,
05:03
there's history. And somehow all that content of consciousness
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zgodovina. Nekako je vsa ta
vsebina zavesti
vsebina zavesti
05:07
is accomplished by the busy activity of those hoards of neurons.
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ustvarjena z delom množic nevronov.
05:12
How is that possible? Many people just think it isn't possible at all.
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Kako je to mogoče?
Mnogi mislijo, da sploh ni.
Mnogi mislijo, da sploh ni.
05:16
They think, "No, there can't be any
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Mislijo si: "Ne, ne more obstajati
05:18
sort of naturalistic explanation of consciousness."
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nikakršna naravna razlaga zavesti."
05:22
This is a lovely book by a friend of mine named Lee Siegel,
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To je krasna knjiga
mojega prijatelja Leeja Siegla,
mojega prijatelja Leeja Siegla,
05:25
who's a professor of religion, actually, at the University of Hawaii,
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ki je profesor religije
na univerzi na Havajih.
na univerzi na Havajih.
05:28
and he's an expert magician, and an expert
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Je strokovnjak čarodej in strokovnjak
05:30
on the street magic of India, which is what this book is about,
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za indijsko ulično čarovnijo,
o čemer piše knjiga,
o čemer piše knjiga,
05:34
"Net of Magic."
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"Mreža magije".
05:36
And there's a passage in it which I would love to share with you.
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V njej je odlomek, ki bi
ga rad delil z vami.
ga rad delil z vami.
05:39
It speaks so eloquently to the problem.
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Tako jasno govori o težavi.
05:45
"'I'm writing a book on magic,' I explain, and I'm asked, 'Real magic?'
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"Pišem knjigo o magiji," pojasnim,
in vprašajo me: "O pravi magiji?"
in vprašajo me: "O pravi magiji?"
05:50
By 'real magic,' people mean miracles,
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S 'pravo magijo' ljudje mislijo čudeže,
05:52
thaumaturgical acts, and supernatural powers.
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tavmaturška dejanja in nadnaravne moči.
05:54
'No,' I answer. 'Conjuring tricks, not real magic.'
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"Ne," odgovorim.
"O čarovniških trikih, ne o pravi magiji."
"O čarovniških trikih, ne o pravi magiji."
05:58
'Real magic,' in other words, refers to the magic that is not real;
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Z drugimi besedami: 'prava magija'
se nanaša na magijo, ki ni prava;
se nanaša na magijo, ki ni prava;
06:02
while the magic that is real, that can actually be done, is not real magic."
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medtem ko prava magija, tista,
ki jo je možno napraviti, ni prava magija."
ki jo je možno napraviti, ni prava magija."
06:07
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
06:11
Now, that's the way a lot of people feel about consciousness.
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Tako veliko ljudi meni o zavesti.
06:15
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
06:16
Real consciousness is not a bag of tricks.
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Prava zavest ni vreča trikov.
06:18
If you're going to explain this as a bag of tricks,
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Če jo hočete razložiti kot tako,
06:20
then it's not real consciousness, whatever it is.
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potem ni prava zavest, karkoli pač že je.
06:23
And, as Marvin said, and as other people have said,
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In kot so povedali Marvin in drugi:
06:29
"Consciousness is a bag of tricks."
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"Zavest je vreča trikov."
06:32
This means that a lot of people are just left completely dissatisfied
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To pomeni, da veliko ljudi ostane
popolnoma nezadovoljnih
popolnoma nezadovoljnih
06:37
and incredulous when I attempt to explain consciousness.
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in nejevernih, ko skušam razložiti zavest.
06:40
So this is the problem. So I have to
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V tem je torej problem.
Zato moram
Zato moram
06:43
do a little bit of the sort of work
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opraviti nekaj takega dela,
06:46
that a lot of you won't like,
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ki mnogim med vami ne bo všeč
06:50
for the same reason that you don't like to see
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iz enakega razloga, iz katerega
si ne želite
si ne želite
06:52
a magic trick explained to you.
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vedeti, kako poteka čarovniški trik.
06:54
How many of you here, if somebody -- some smart aleck --
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Ko vam kak pametnjakovič
06:58
starts telling you how a particular magic trick is done,
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začne razlagati, kako narediti
nek čarovniški trik, kdo med vami
nek čarovniški trik, kdo med vami
07:01
you sort of want to block your ears and say, "No, no, I don't want to know!
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si hoče zatisniti ušesa in reči:
"Ne, ne, nočem vedeti!
"Ne, ne, nočem vedeti!
07:04
Don't take the thrill of it away. I'd rather be mystified.
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Ne uničite vznemirjenja, raje sem v dvomu.
07:07
Don't tell me the answer."
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Ne povejte mi odgovora."
07:10
A lot of people feel that way about consciousness, I've discovered.
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Ugotovil sem, da ima veliko ljudi
tak odnos do zavesti.
tak odnos do zavesti.
07:13
And I'm sorry if I impose some clarity, some understanding on you.
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In žal mi je, če vam bom vsilil
nekaj pojasnil, nekaj razumevanja.
nekaj pojasnil, nekaj razumevanja.
07:19
You'd better leave now if you don't want to know some of these tricks.
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Če nočete slišati o teh trikih,
raje odidite zdaj.
raje odidite zdaj.
07:24
But I'm not going to explain it all to you.
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A ne bom vam pojasnil vsega.
07:28
I'm going to do what philosophers do.
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Po filozofsko bom to rešil.
07:31
Here's how a philosopher explains the sawing-the-lady-in-half trick.
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Tako filozof pojasni trik
žaganja ženske na pol.
žaganja ženske na pol.
07:37
You know the sawing-the-lady-in-half trick?
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Saj poznate ta trik, ne?
07:39
The philosopher says, "I'm going to explain to you how that's done.
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Filozof pravi: "Pojasnil vam bom,
kako to poteka.
kako to poteka.
07:43
You see, the magician doesn't really saw the lady in half."
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Veste, čarodej v resnici
ženske ne prežaga na pol."
ženske ne prežaga na pol."
07:48
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
07:50
"He merely makes you think that he does."
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"Samo zavede vas, da mislite, da jo."
07:54
And you say, "Yes, and how does he do that?"
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"In kako to stori?"
07:55
He says, "Oh, that's not my department, I'm sorry."
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On odvrne: "To pa ni
moje področje, žal."
moje področje, žal."
07:57
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
08:02
So now I'm going to illustrate how philosophers explain consciousness.
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Pokazal vam bom, kako
filozofi pojasnijo zavest.
filozofi pojasnijo zavest.
08:05
But I'm going to try to also show you
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Hkrati vam bom tudi skušal pokazati,
08:08
that consciousness isn't quite as marvelous --
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da zavest ni tako čudovita -
08:11
your own consciousness isn't quite as wonderful --
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vaša zavest ni tako krasna -
08:13
as you may have thought it is.
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kot ste mislili, da je.
08:15
This is something, by the way, that Lee Siegel talks about in his book.
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O tem Lee Siegel govori v svoji knjigi.
08:19
He marvels at how he'll do a magic show, and afterwards
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Opisuje, kako bo ustvaril čarovniško
predstavo in kako bodo potem
predstavo in kako bodo potem
08:23
people will swear they saw him do X, Y, and Z. He never did those things.
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ljudje prisegali, da je naredil X, Y in Z.
Teh stvari nikoli ne naredi.
Teh stvari nikoli ne naredi.
08:27
He didn't even try to do those things.
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Niti poskusi ne.
08:29
People's memories inflate what they think they saw.
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Človeški spomini napihnejo to,
kar mislijo, da so videli.
kar mislijo, da so videli.
08:33
And the same is true of consciousness.
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Isto velja za zavest.
08:36
Now, let's see if this will work. All right. Let's just watch this.
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Poglejmo, ali bo tole delovalo. V redu.
Oglejmo si tole.
Oglejmo si tole.
08:43
Watch it carefully.
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Pazljivo glejte.
08:56
I'm working with a young computer-animator documentarian
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Delam z mladim računalniškim animatorjem
08:59
named Nick Deamer, and this is a little demo that he's done for me,
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Nickom Deamerjem, ki je zame
napravil tale demo,
napravil tale demo,
09:04
part of a larger project some of you may be interested in.
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del večjega projekta,
ki vas bo morda zanimal.
ki vas bo morda zanimal.
09:07
We're looking for a backer.
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Iščemo podpornika.
09:10
It's a feature-length documentary on consciousness.
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Gre za celovečerni dokumentarec o zavesti.
09:14
OK, now, you all saw what changed, right?
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No, ste videli, kaj se je spremenilo, ne?
09:20
How many of you noticed that every one of those squares changed color?
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Koliko vas je opazilo, da so
vsi kvadrati spremenili barvo?
vsi kvadrati spremenili barvo?
09:25
Every one. I'll just show you by running it again.
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Vsi. Ponovno vam bom pokazal.
09:34
Even when you know that they're all going to change color,
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Celo ko veste, da bodo
vsi spremenili barvo,
vsi spremenili barvo,
09:39
it's very hard to notice. You have to really concentrate
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je to težko opaziti.
Res se morate osredotočiti,
Res se morate osredotočiti,
09:43
to pick up any of the changes at all.
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da opazite kakršnokoli spremembo.
09:46
Now, this is an example -- one of many --
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To je primer - eden mnogih -
09:51
of a phenomenon that's now being studied quite a bit.
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pojava, ki ga precej preučujemo.
09:53
It's one that I predicted in the last page or two of my
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Predvidel sem ga na zadnjih straneh svoje
09:57
1991 book, "Consciousness Explained,"
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knjige "Pojasnjena zavest" iz leta 1991,
09:59
where I said if you did experiments of this sort,
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kjer sem trdil, da če
izvajate take poskuse,
izvajate take poskuse,
10:02
you'd find that people were unable to pick up really large changes.
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boste ugotovili, da ljudje
ne zaznajo zelo velikih sprememb.
ne zaznajo zelo velikih sprememb.
10:05
If there's time at the end,
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Če bo na koncu čas,
10:07
I'll show you the much more dramatic case.
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vam pokažem veliko bolj
dramatičen primer.
dramatičen primer.
10:10
Now, how can it be that there are all those changes going on,
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Kako je mogoče, da se
dogajajo vse te spremembe,
dogajajo vse te spremembe,
10:15
and that we're not aware of them?
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pa se jih ne zavedamo?
10:18
Well, earlier today, Jeff Hawkins mentioned the way your eye saccades,
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Prejle je Jeff Hawkins omenil,
kako se oko hitro premika,
kako se oko hitro premika,
10:23
the way your eye moves around three or four times a second.
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kako se pogled premakne tri-
ali štirikrat na sekundo.
ali štirikrat na sekundo.
10:26
He didn't mention the speed. Your eye is constantly in motion,
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Ni omenil hitrosti.
Vaše oko se stalno giblje,
Vaše oko se stalno giblje,
10:29
moving around, looking at eyes, noses, elbows,
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premika naokoli, gleda
oči, nosove, komolce,
oči, nosove, komolce,
10:32
looking at interesting things in the world.
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opazuje zanimive stvari po svetu.
10:34
And where your eye isn't looking,
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In ko oko ne gleda,
10:36
you're remarkably impoverished in your vision.
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je vaš vid neverjetno slabši.
10:39
That's because the foveal part of your eye,
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To pa zato, ker je fovea očesa,
10:42
which is the high-resolution part,
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ki skrbi za visoko resolucijo,
10:44
is only about the size of your thumbnail held at arms length.
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velika le toliko kot noht,
viden na iztegnjeni roki.
viden na iztegnjeni roki.
10:47
That's the detail part.
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To je detajl, ki ga vidimo.
10:49
It doesn't seem that way, does it?
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Ampak ne zdi se tako, mar ne?
10:52
It doesn't seem that way, but that's the way it is.
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Ne zdi se tako, a tako je.
10:54
You're getting in a lot less information than you think.
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Dobivate veliko manj informacij,
kot si mislite.
kot si mislite.
10:58
Here's a completely different effect. This is a painting by Bellotto.
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Tole je povsem drug učinek.
To je Bellottova slika.
To je Bellottova slika.
11:04
It's in the museum in North Carolina.
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Nahaja se v muzeju v Severni Karolini.
11:06
Bellotto was a student of Canaletto's.
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Bellotto je bil Canalettov študent.
11:09
And I love paintings like that --
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Rad imam take slike -
11:10
the painting is actually about as big as it is right here.
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tale je približno tako velika kot tukaj.
11:14
And I love Canalettos, because Canaletto has this fantastic detail,
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Rad imam Canalettove slike,
ker imajo čudovit detajl,
ker imajo čudovit detajl,
11:17
and you can get right up
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lahko se približate
11:20
and see all the details on the painting.
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in vidite vse detajle na sliki.
11:23
And I started across the hall in North Carolina,
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Začel sem na drugi strani dvorane
v Severni Karolini,
v Severni Karolini,
11:28
because I thought it was probably a Canaletto,
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ker sem mislil, da gre za Canaletta,
11:30
and would have all that in detail.
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in sem to videl v podrobnosti.
11:32
And I noticed that on the bridge there, there's a lot of people --
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Opazil sem, da je na mostu veliko ljudi,
11:35
you can just barely see them walking across the bridge.
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komaj jih lahko vidite, kako ga prečkajo.
11:38
And I thought as I got closer
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Mislil sem, da ko se bom približal,
11:39
I would be able to see all the detail of most people,
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bom lahko videl podrobnosti večine ljudi,
11:42
see their clothes, and so forth.
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njihove obleke in tako naprej.
11:44
And as I got closer and closer, I actually screamed.
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Ko sem bil še bliže, sem kar zakričal.
11:48
I yelled out because when I got closer,
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To pa zato, ker ko sem se približal,
11:50
I found the detail wasn't there at all.
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sem ugotovil, da detajla sploh ni.
11:54
There were just little artfully placed blobs of paint.
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Samo umetelno postavljene
packe barve so bile.
packe barve so bile.
11:58
And as I walked towards the picture,
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Ko sem se bližal sliki,
12:01
I was expecting detail that wasn't there.
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sem pričakoval detajl, ki ga ni bilo.
12:04
The artist had very cleverly suggested people and clothes
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Umetnik je pametno nakazal
ljudi in oblačila
ljudi in oblačila
12:09
and wagons and all sorts of things,
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ter vagone in druge stvari,
12:12
and my brain had taken the suggestion.
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moji možgani pa so sprejeli te znake.
12:15
You're familiar with a more recent technology, which is -- There,
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Novejša tehnologija je - vidite -
12:21
you can get a better view of the blobs.
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lahko bolje vidite packe.
12:23
See, when you get close
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Ko se približate,
12:25
they're really just blobs of paint.
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so to res le barvne packe.
12:30
You will have seen something like this -- this is the reverse effect.
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Tole ste že videli; gre za obraten učinek.
12:44
I'll just give that to you one more time.
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Še enkrat vam bom pokazal.
12:47
Now, what does your brain do when it takes the suggestion?
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Kaj vaši možgani storijo, ko dobijo namig?
12:54
When an artful blob of paint or two, by an artist,
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Ko spretna umetnikova packa ali dve
12:59
suggests a person -- say, one of
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namigne na osebo - recimo
13:05
Marvin Minsky's little society of mind --
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majhno družbo umov Marvina Minskega -
13:07
do they send little painters out to fill in all the details in your brain somewhere?
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mar pošljejo majhne slikarje,
da zapolnijo vrzeli v možganih?
da zapolnijo vrzeli v možganih?
13:12
I don't think so. Not a chance. But then, how on Earth is it done?
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Mislim, da ne. Niti slučajno.
Ampak, kako pa se potem to zgodi?
Ampak, kako pa se potem to zgodi?
13:17
Well, remember the philosopher's explanation of the lady?
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Se spomnite filozofske razlage ženske?
13:22
It's the same thing.
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Gre za isto stvar.
13:25
The brain just makes you think that it's got the detail there.
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Možgani vas napeljejo, da mislite,
da obstaja ta detajl.
da obstaja ta detajl.
13:28
You think the detail's there, but it isn't there.
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Mislite, da je tam, vendar ga ni.
13:31
The brain isn't actually putting the detail in your head at all.
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Možgani sploh ne slikajo
detajla v vaši glavi.
detajla v vaši glavi.
13:34
It's just making you expect the detail.
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Samo navedejo vas, da ga pričakujete.
13:37
Let's just do this experiment very quickly.
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Naredimo hiter poskus.
13:40
Is the shape on the left the same as the shape on the right, rotated?
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Je oblika na levi ista kot tista na desni,
ki je obrnjena?
ki je obrnjena?
13:45
Yes.
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Da.
13:47
How many of you did it by rotating the one on the left
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Koliko vas je v mislih
obrnilo levo obliko,
obrnilo levo obliko,
13:49
in your mind's eye, to see if it matched up with the one on the right?
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da bi videli, ali se ujema z desno?
13:52
How many of you rotated the one on the right? OK.
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Koliko vas je obrnilo desno? OK.
13:56
How do you know that's what you did?
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Kako veste, da ste to storili?
13:58
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
14:01
There's in fact been a very interesting debate
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Zadnjih dvajset let v kognitivni znanosti
14:03
raging for over 20 years in cognitive science --
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poteka zelo zanimiva razprava,
14:06
various experiments started by Roger Shepherd,
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Roger Shepherd je sprožil več poskusov
14:08
who measured the angular velocity of rotation of mental images.
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merjenja kotne hitrosti
rotacije miselnih slik.
rotacije miselnih slik.
14:13
Yes, it's possible to do that.
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Ja, to se da meriti.
14:15
But the details of the process are still in significant controversy.
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A podrobnosti postopka
so še vedno kontroverzne.
so še vedno kontroverzne.
14:22
And if you read that literature, one of the things
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Če berete to literaturo,
14:25
that you really have to come to terms with is
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se morate sprijazniti s tem,
14:28
even when you're the subject in the experiment, you don't know.
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da tudi kot subjekt v poskusu,
ne morete vedeti.
ne morete vedeti.
14:30
You don't know how you do it.
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Ne veste, kako se to zgodi.
14:32
You just know that you have certain beliefs.
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Veste samo, da ste v nekaj prepričani.
14:35
And they come in a certain order, at a certain time.
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Prepričanja si sledijo v določenem redu,
v določenem času.
v določenem času.
14:38
And what explains the fact that that's what you think?
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Kako pojasniti, da je to to, kar mislite?
14:40
Well, that's where you have to go backstage and ask the magician.
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Hja, to je čas, da greste v zaodrje
in vprašate čarodeja.
in vprašate čarodeja.
14:44
This is a figure that I love: Bradley, Petrie, and Dumais.
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Tale mi je všeč:
Bradley, Petrie in Dumais.
Bradley, Petrie in Dumais.
14:48
You may think that I've cheated,
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Mislite, da sem goljufal,
14:50
that I've put a little whiter-than-white boundary there.
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da sem označil malo preveč belo mejo?
14:55
How many of you see that sort of boundary,
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Koliko vas vidi mejo,
14:57
with the Necker cube floating in front of the circles?
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kjer Neckerjeva kocka lebdi pred krogi?
15:00
Can you see it?
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Jo vidite?
15:02
Well, you know, in effect, the boundary's really there, in a certain sense.
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Veste, v bistvu je meja nekako res tam.
15:07
Your brain is actually computing that boundary,
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Možgani ustvarjajo to mejo,
15:10
the boundary that goes right there.
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ki poteka točno tukaj.
15:15
But now, notice there are two ways of seeing the cube, right?
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Opazite, da lahko kocko
vidite na dva načina?
vidite na dva načina?
15:17
It's a Necker cube.
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To je Neckerjeva kocka.
15:19
Everybody can see the two ways of seeing the cube? OK.
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Jo lahko vsi vidite na dva načina?
Prav.
Prav.
15:23
Can you see the four ways of seeing the cube?
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Jo lahko vidite na štiri načine?
15:27
Because there's another way of seeing it.
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Ker obstaja še en način.
15:29
If you're seeing it as a cube floating in front of some circles,
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Če jo vidite kot kocko,
ki lebdi pred nekaj krogi,
ki lebdi pred nekaj krogi,
15:32
some black circles, there's another way of seeing it.
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nekaj črnimi krogi,
potem obstaja še en način gledanja.
potem obstaja še en način gledanja.
15:35
As a cube, on a black background,
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Kot kocka na črnem ozadju,
15:37
as seen through a piece of Swiss cheese.
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ki jo gledamo skozi
švicarski sir.
švicarski sir.
15:39
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
15:42
Can you get it? How many of you can't get it? That'll help.
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Vidite? Koliko vas vidi? To bo pomagalo.
15:48
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
15:50
Now you can get it. These are two very different phenomena.
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Zdaj vidite. To sta dva
različna pojava.
različna pojava.
15:55
When you see the cube one way, behind the screen,
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Ko kocko vidite izza zaslona,
16:01
those boundaries go away.
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meje izginejo.
16:03
But there's still a sort of filling in, as we can tell if we look at this.
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A ostaja še določeno polnilo,
kot lahko vidimo tule.
kot lahko vidimo tule.
16:08
We don't have any trouble seeing the cube, but where does the color change?
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Nimamo težav videti kocko,
a kje se spremeni barva?
a kje se spremeni barva?
16:12
Does your brain have to send little painters in there?
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Ali možgani pošljejo
na delo majhne slikarje?
na delo majhne slikarje?
16:15
The purple-painters and the green-painters
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Se vijolični in zeleni malarji
16:17
fight over who's going to paint that bit behind the curtain? No.
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borijo za to, kdo bo pobarval
kos za zaslonom? Ne.
kos za zaslonom? Ne.
16:20
Your brain just lets it go. The brain doesn't need to fill that in.
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Možgani se ne ukvarjajo s tem.
Ni jim treba zapolniti tega.
Ni jim treba zapolniti tega.
16:29
When I first started talking about
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Ko sem začel govoriti o primeru
16:32
the Bradley, Petrie, Dumais example that you just saw --
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Bradleya, Petrieja in Dumaisa,
ki ste ga pravkar videli,
ki ste ga pravkar videli,
16:36
I'll go back to it, this one --
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naj ga še enkrat pokažem -
16:40
I said that there was no filling-in behind there.
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sem dejal, da tam ni polnila.
16:47
And I supposed that that was just a flat truth, always true.
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Predvideval sem, da je to splošna resnica,
da vedno drži.
da vedno drži.
16:50
But Rob Van Lier has recently shown that it isn't.
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A Rob van Lier je pred kratkim pokazal,
da ni tako.
da ni tako.
16:55
Now, if you think you see some pale yellow --
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Če mislite, da vidite bledo rumeno,
17:00
I'll run this a few more times.
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bom še nekajkrat pokazal.
17:02
Look in the gray areas,
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Glejte na siva območja,
17:06
and see if you seem to see something sort of shadowy moving in there --
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morda boste videli nekakšne sence,
ki se premikajo.
ki se premikajo.
17:11
yeah, it's amazing. There's nothing there. It's no trick.
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Noro, ne? Nič ni tam. Nobenega trika ni.
17:18
["Failure to Detect Changes in Scenes" slide]
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(Nezmožnost opaziti spremembe na slikah)
17:24
This is Ron Rensink's work, which was in some degree
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To je delo Rona Rensinka, ki ga je nekako
17:26
inspired by that suggestion right at the end of the book.
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navdihnil predlog na koncu knjige.
17:30
Let me just pause this for a second if I can.
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Naj ustavim tole za trenutek.
17:32
This is change-blindness.
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To je slepota za spremembo.
17:34
What you're going to see is two pictures,
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Videli boste dve sliki,
17:36
one of which is slightly different from the other.
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kjer je ena malce drugačna.
17:38
You see here the red roof and the gray roof,
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Tu sta rdeča in siva streha
17:41
and in between them there will be a mask,
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in med njima bo maska
17:43
which is just a blank screen, for about a quarter of a second.
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za četrtinko sekunde,
kar je samo prazen zaslon.
kar je samo prazen zaslon.
17:47
So you'll see the first picture, then a mask,
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Videli boste prvo sliko, potem masko,
17:49
then the second picture, then a mask.
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potem drugo sliko, potem masko.
17:51
And this will just continue, and your job as the subject
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To se bo nadaljevalo, vi pa morate
17:55
is to press the button when you see the change.
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pritisniti gumb, ko vidite spremembo.
17:58
So, show the original picture for 240 milliseconds. Blank.
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Pokažimo original za 240 milisekund.
Praznina.
Praznina.
18:06
Show the next picture for 240 milliseconds. Blank.
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Druga slika za 240 milisekund. Praznina.
18:12
And keep going, until the subject presses the button, saying,
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In tako naprej, dokler udeleženec
ne pritisne gumba,
ne pritisne gumba,
18:16
"I see the change."
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kar pomeni: "Vidim spremembo."
18:18
So now we're going to be subjects in the experiment.
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Bodimo zdaj mi udeleženci poskusa.
18:21
We're going to start easy. Some examples.
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Začeli bomo enostavno. Nekaj primerov.
18:30
No trouble there.
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Brez težav..
18:32
Can everybody see? All right.
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Vsi vidite? V redu.
18:35
Indeed, Rensink's subjects took only a little bit more
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Rensinkovi udeleženci so potrebovali
18:39
than a second to press the button.
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malo več kot sekundo za pritisk na gumb.
18:46
Can you see that one?
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Vidite tole?
18:55
2.9 seconds.
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2,9 sekunde.
19:04
How many don't see it still?
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Koliko vas še vidi?
19:07
What's on the roof of that barn?
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Kakšna je streha na tistem seniku?
19:09
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
19:20
It's easy.
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Enostavno je.
19:46
Is it a bridge or a dock?
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Je most ali dok?
19:52
There are a few more really dramatic ones, and then I'll close.
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Še nekaj bolj dramatičnih pride,
potem pa končam.
potem pa končam.
19:56
I want you to see a few that are particularly striking.
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Morate videti nekaj prav osupljivih.
20:00
This one because it's so large and yet it's pretty hard to see.
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Tale je tako velika, a vseeno
jo je težko opaziti.
jo je težko opaziti.
20:07
Can you see it?
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Vidite?
20:10
Audience: Yes.
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(občinstvo:) Da.
20:12
Dan Dennett: See the shadows going back and forth? Pretty big.
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(Dan Dennett:) Vidite, kako gredo sence
naprej in nazaj? Noro.
naprej in nazaj? Noro.
20:23
So 15.5 seconds is the median time
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Tule je povprečni čas
20:27
for subjects in his experiment there.
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udeležencev, 15,5 sekund.
20:29
I love this one. I'll end with this one,
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Tega obožujem. Ta bo zadnji,
20:32
just because it's such an obvious and important thing.
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ker je tako očiten in pomemben.
20:37
How many still don't see it? How many still don't see it?
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Koliko vas še ne vidi?
Koliko vas še ne vidi?
Koliko vas še ne vidi?
20:43
How many engines on the wing of that Boeing?
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Koliko motorjev je na krilu tega Boeinga?
20:46
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
20:47
Right in the middle of the picture!
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Sredi slike!
20:53
Thanks very much for your attention.
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Hvala za pozornost.
20:54
What I wanted to show you is that scientists,
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Pokazati sem vam hotel, da znanstveniki,
20:59
using their from-the-outside, third-person methods,
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ki uporabljajo metode od zunaj,
z vidika tretje osebe,
z vidika tretje osebe,
21:03
can tell you things about your own consciousness
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lahko povedo stvari o vaši zavesti,
21:05
that you would never dream of,
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o katerih vi ne bi niti sanjali,
21:07
and that, in fact, you're not the authority
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in da vi niste tak gospodar
21:09
on your own consciousness that you think you are.
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svoje zavesti, kot mislite, da ste.
21:11
And we're really making a lot of progress
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Velik napredek dosegamo
21:13
on coming up with a theory of mind.
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pri razvoju teorije uma.
21:16
Jeff Hawkins, this morning, was describing his attempt
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Jeff Hawkins je zjutraj opisoval poskus
21:22
to get theory, and a good, big theory, into the neuroscience.
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priti do dobre velike teorije
v nevroznanosti.
v nevroznanosti.
21:26
And he's right. This is a problem.
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Prav ima. V tem je problem.
21:31
Harvard Medical School once -- I was at a talk --
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Nekoč sem bil na predavanju
Harvardske šole medicine,
Harvardske šole medicine,
21:33
director of the lab said, "In our lab, we have a saying.
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kjer je direktor laboratorija dejal:
"Pri nas imamo pregovor,
"Pri nas imamo pregovor,
21:37
If you work on one neuron, that's neuroscience.
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da če delate na enem nevronu,
je to nevroznanost.
je to nevroznanost.
21:40
If you work on two neurons, that's psychology."
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Če delate na dveh, pa je psihologija."
21:43
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
21:47
We have to have more theory, and it can come as much from the top down.
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Potrebujemo več teorije
in ta lahko pride tudi od zgoraj.
in ta lahko pride tudi od zgoraj.
21:50
Thank you very much.
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Hvala lepa.
21:52
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientistDan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes.
Why you should listen
One of our most important living philosophers, Dan Dennett is best known for his provocative and controversial arguments that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes in the brain. He argues that the brain's computational circuitry fools us into thinking we know more than we do, and that what we call consciousness — isn't. His 2003 book "Freedom Evolves" explores how our brains evolved to give us -- and only us -- the kind of freedom that matters, while 2006's "Breaking the Spell" examines belief through the lens of biology.
This mind-shifting perspective on the mind itself has distinguished Dennett's career as a philosopher and cognitive scientist. And while the philosophy community has never quite known what to make of Dennett (he defies easy categorization, and refuses to affiliate himself with accepted schools of thought), his computational approach to understanding the brain has made him, as Edge's John Brockman writes, “the philosopher of choice of the AI community.”
“It's tempting to say that Dennett has never met a robot he didn't like, and that what he likes most about them is that they are philosophical experiments,” Harry Blume wrote in the Atlantic Monthly in 1998. “To the question of whether machines can attain high-order intelligence, Dennett makes this provocative answer: ‘The best reason for believing that robots might some day become conscious is that we human beings are conscious, and we are a sort of robot ourselves.'"
In recent years, Dennett has become outspoken in his atheism, and his 2006 book Breaking the Spell calls for religion to be studied through the scientific lens of evolutionary biology. Dennett regards religion as a natural -- rather than supernatural -- phenomenon, and urges schools to break the taboo against empirical examination of religion. He argues that religion's influence over human behavior is precisely what makes gaining a rational understanding of it so necessary: “If we don't understand religion, we're going to miss our chance to improve the world in the 21st century.”
Dennett's landmark books include The Mind's I, co-edited with Douglas Hofstaedter, Consciousness Explained, and Darwin's Dangerous Idea. Read an excerpt from his 2013 book, Intuition Pumps, in the Guardian >>
Dan Dennett | Speaker | TED.com