TEDxHousesOfParliament
Onora O'Neill: What we don't understand about trust
Onora O'Neill: Kar smo spregledali v zvezi z zaupanjem
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Zaupanje se zmanjšuje in potrebno ga je ponovno zgraditi. To je pogost predlog za izboljšanje sveta ... toda, kot pravi filozofinja Onora O´Neill, ne razumemo najbolje tega, kar predlagamo. S tem, ko obrne vprašanje, pokaže, da so naše tri najpogostejše ideje o zaupanju v resnici zavajajoče. (Snemano na TEDxHousesofParliament.)
Onora O'Neill - Philosopher
Baroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life. Full bio
Baroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So I'm going to talk about trust,
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Spregovorila bom o zaupanju,
00:14
and I'm going to start by reminding you
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in pričela bom tako, da vas spomnim
00:16
of the standard views that people have about trust.
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na običajne poglede,
ki jih imamo ljudje o zaupanju.
ki jih imamo ljudje o zaupanju.
00:20
I think these are so commonplace,
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Mislim, da so ti pogledi že tako vsakdanji,
00:22
they've become clichés of our society.
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da so postali klišeji.
00:25
And I think there are three.
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Mislim, da so trije.
00:27
One's a claim: there has been a great decline in trust,
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Pri prvem gre za izjavo:
obstaja velik padec zaupanja,
obstaja velik padec zaupanja,
00:31
very widely believed.
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ki je zelo razširjena.
00:33
The second is an aim: we should have more trust.
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V drugem primeru gre za cilj:
morali bi imeti več zaupanja.
morali bi imeti več zaupanja.
00:38
And the third is a task: we should rebuild trust.
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In tretji je naloga:
zaupanje je potrebno zgraditi.
zaupanje je potrebno zgraditi.
00:43
I think that the claim, the aim and the task
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Menim, da so tako izjava
kot cilj in tudi naloga
kot cilj in tudi naloga
00:48
are all misconceived.
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napačno zastavljeni.
00:50
So what I'm going to try to tell you today
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Zato bi vam danes rada povedala
00:52
is a different story about a claim, an aim and a task
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drugačno zgodbo o izjavi, cilju in nalogi,
00:56
which I think give one quite a lot better purchase on the matter.
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za katero menim, da ponuja boljšo rešitev.
01:01
First the claim: Why do people think trust has declined?
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Najprej izjava: Zakaj ljudje
mislijo, da zaupanje pada?
mislijo, da zaupanje pada?
01:06
And if I really think about it on the basis of my own evidence,
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Če to bolje premislim na
podlagi mojih osebnih dokazov,
podlagi mojih osebnih dokazov,
01:09
I don't know the answer.
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bi rekla, da ne poznam odgovora.
01:11
I'm inclined to think it may have declined
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Sem pa nagnjena k mišljenju, da medtem
01:15
in some activities or some institutions
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ko je v nekaterih dejavnostih
ali institucijah upadlo,
ali institucijah upadlo,
01:18
and it might have grown in others.
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je v drugih naraslo.
01:20
I don't have an overview.
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Nimam pregleda nad tem.
01:22
But, of course, I can look at the opinion polls,
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Vendar pa lahko pogledam
ankete javnega mnenja,
ankete javnega mnenja,
01:27
and the opinion polls are supposedly
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in te so domnevno
01:29
the source of a belief that trust has declined.
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vir prepričanja o tem,
da je zaupanje upadlo.
da je zaupanje upadlo.
01:33
When you actually look at opinion polls across time,
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Ko pogledaš te ankete skozi čas,
01:37
there's not much evidence for that.
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vidiš, da za to ni ravno veliko dokazov.
01:39
That's to say, the people who were mistrusted
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Se pravi, da ljudjem,
ki jim nismo zaupali
ki jim nismo zaupali
01:41
20 years ago,
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20 let nazaj,
01:43
principally journalists and politicians, are still mistrusted.
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v prvi vrsti novinarjem in
politikom, ne zaupamo niti danes.
politikom, ne zaupamo niti danes.
01:47
And the people who were highly trusted 20 years ago
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In ljudjem, ki smo jim zelo
zaupali 20 let nazaj,
zaupali 20 let nazaj,
01:51
are still rather highly trusted: judges, nurses.
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še vedno precej zaupamo:
sodnikom, medicinskim sestram...
sodnikom, medicinskim sestram...
01:54
The rest of us are in between,
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Vsi ostali pa smo nekje vmes
01:56
and by the way, the average person in the street
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in mimogrede, povprečna oseba na ulici
01:59
is almost exactly midway.
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spada skoraj točno v sredino.
02:01
But is that good evidence?
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Toda ali je to dober dokaz?
02:03
What opinion polls record is, of course, opinions.
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Javnomnenjske ankete so
namreč točno to, mnenja.
namreč točno to, mnenja.
02:08
What else can they record?
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Kaj drugega pa lahko pokažejo?
02:09
So they're looking at the generic attitudes
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Torej, opazujejo nek splošen odnos
02:13
that people report when you ask them certain questions.
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ljudi, ko jim postaviš neko vprašanje.
02:16
Do you trust politicians? Do you trust teachers?
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"Ali zaupate politikom?
Ali zaupate učiteljem?"
Ali zaupate učiteljem?"
02:20
Now if somebody said to you, "Do you trust greengrocers?
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Če pa bi vas vprašali: "Ali zaupate
trgovcem sadja in zelenjave?"
trgovcem sadja in zelenjave?"
02:24
Do you trust fishmongers?
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"Ali zaupate ribarnicam?
02:26
Do you trust elementary school teachers?"
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Ali zaupate učiteljem v osnovni šoli?"
02:28
you would probably begin by saying, "To do what?"
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bi najbrž hiteli z odgovorom:
"Da počnejo kaj?"
"Da počnejo kaj?"
02:32
And that would be a perfectly sensible response.
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In to bi bil tudi izjemno smiseln odgovor.
02:35
And you might say, when you understood the answer to that,
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In če ste razumeli odgovor
na to, bi lahko rekli:
na to, bi lahko rekli:
02:40
"Well, I trust some of them, but not others."
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"No, nekaterim zaupam, nekaterim pa ne."
02:44
That's a perfectly rational thing.
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To je povsem racionalna stvar.
02:46
In short, in our real lives,
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Skratka, v našem realnem življenju
02:49
we seek to place trust in a differentiated way.
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zaupamo na razpršen način.
02:52
We don't make an assumption that the level of trust
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Ne domnevamo, da bo stopnja zaupanja,
02:56
that we will have in every instance of a certain type
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ki jo lahko sicer v celoti uživa nek določen
02:59
of official or office-holder or type of person
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uradnik ali vodja pisarne in podobni,
03:03
is going to be uniform.
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nekaj, kar bo enotno za vse.
03:05
I might, for example, say that I certainly trust
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Lahko na primer rečem, da zaupam
03:09
a certain elementary school teacher I know
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meni znani učiteljici v osnovni šoli,
03:11
to teach the reception class to read,
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da uči brati prvošolce,
03:14
but in no way to drive the school minibus.
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vendar pa ji ne bom zaupala,
da vozi šolski avtobus.
da vozi šolski avtobus.
03:18
I might, after all, know that she wasn't a good driver.
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Navsezadnje bi lahko tudi vedela,
da ni dobra voznica.
da ni dobra voznica.
03:21
I might trust my most loquacious friend
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Morda bom svojemu najbolj
zgovornem prijatelju zaupala,
zgovornem prijatelju zaupala,
03:24
to keep a conversation going
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da skrbi za razpravo,
03:26
but not -- but perhaps not to keep a secret.
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najbrž pa ne tudi tega,
da lahko drži skrivnost zase.
da lahko drži skrivnost zase.
03:36
Simple.
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Preprosto.
03:37
So if we've got those evidence in our ordinary lives
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Torej, če imamo v konkretnem
življenju dokaze,
življenju dokaze,
03:42
of the way that trust is differentiated,
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da je zaupanje nekaj razpršenega,
03:44
why do we sort of drop all that intelligence
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čemu potem zavržemo to vedenje,
03:47
when we think about trust more abstractly?
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ko o zaupanju razmišljamo abstraktno?
03:51
I think the polls are very bad guides
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Menim, da so ankete slab pokazatelj
03:54
to the level of trust that actually exists,
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stopnje zaupanja, ki obstaja v resnici,
03:57
because they try to obliterate the good judgment
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to pa zato, ker zabrišejo zdravo presojo,
04:00
that goes into placing trust.
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ki jo uporabljamo pri oblikovanju zaupanja.
04:04
Secondly, what about the aim?
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Drugič, kaj pa glede cilja?
04:06
The aim is to have more trust.
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Cilj je imeti več zaupanja.
04:09
Well frankly, I think that's a stupid aim.
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Resnici na ljubo, mislim,
da je to neumen cilj.
da je to neumen cilj.
04:12
It's not what I would aim at.
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To ni nekaj, k čemur bi sama težila.
04:14
I would aim to have more trust in the trustworthy
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Jaz bi težila k temu, da bolj
zaupam tistim, ki so tega vredni,
zaupam tistim, ki so tega vredni,
04:17
but not in the untrustworthy.
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ne pa tistim, ki tega niso.
04:20
In fact, I aim positively to try not to trust the untrustworthy.
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Pravzaprav sem bolj gotova v to, da ne
zaupam tistim, ki niso zaupanja vredni.
zaupam tistim, ki niso zaupanja vredni.
04:27
And I think, of those people who, for example,
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In menim, da tisti, ki so npr.
04:30
placed their savings with the very aptly named Mr. Madoff,
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zaupali svoje prihranke g. Madoffu
(finančni goljuf, op.p.),
(finančni goljuf, op.p.),
04:35
who then made off with them,
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le-ta pa jih je odnesel s seboj,
04:38
and I think of them, and I think, well, yes,
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in ko pomislim nanje, pomislim, da
04:40
too much trust.
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je šlo za preveč zaupanja.
04:42
More trust is not an intelligent aim in this life.
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Več zaupanja ni pameten cilj v tem življenju.
04:46
Intelligently placed and intelligently refused trust
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Pametno dajanje in pametno
zavračanje zaupanja
zavračanje zaupanja
04:50
is the proper aim.
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pa je ustrezen cilj.
04:52
Well once one says that, one says, yeah, okay,
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Nekoč je nekdo rekel, prav,
04:56
that means that what matters in the first place
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torej v prvi vrsti ni pomembno
04:59
is not trust but trustworthiness.
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zaupanje, temveč vrednost zaupanja.
05:02
It's judging how trustworthy people are
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Gre za presojo, kako
zaupanja vredni so ljudje
zaupanja vredni so ljudje
05:05
in particular respects.
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v konkretnem pogledu.
05:07
And I think that judgment requires us to look at three things.
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In ta presoja od nas zahteva,
da pogledamo na tri stvari.
da pogledamo na tri stvari.
05:10
Are they competent? Are they honest? Are they reliable?
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Ali so ti ljudje kompetentni?
Ali so iskreni? Ali so zanesljivi?
Ali so iskreni? Ali so zanesljivi?
05:15
And if we find that a person is competent
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In če ugotovimo, da je oseba kompetentna
05:18
in the relevant matters,
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v določenih zadevah,
05:19
and reliable and honest,
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da je zanesljiva in iskrena,
05:21
we'll have a pretty good reason to trust them,
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potem imamo dober razlog, da ji zaupamo.
05:23
because they'll be trustworthy.
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Ker bodo zaupanja vredni.
05:26
But if, on the other hand, they're unreliable, we might not.
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Če pa so po drugi strani nezanesljivi,
potem jim ne bomo zaupali.
potem jim ne bomo zaupali.
05:29
I have friends who are competent and honest,
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Imam prijatelje, ki so
kompetentni in iskreni,
kompetentni in iskreni,
05:32
but I would not trust them to post a letter,
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ampak jim ne bom zaupala,
da mi odpošljejo pošiljko,
da mi odpošljejo pošiljko,
05:33
because they're forgetful.
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ker so pozabljivi.
05:36
I have friends who are very confident
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Imam prijatelje, ki so zelo samozavestni,
05:39
they can do certain things,
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lahko naredijo nekatere stvari,
05:41
but I realize that they overestimate their own competence.
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toda spoznala sem, da so
precenili svoje kompetence.
precenili svoje kompetence.
05:45
And I'm very glad to say, I don't think I have many friends
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Z veseljem lahko rečem, da mislim,
da nimam veliko prijateljev,
da nimam veliko prijateljev,
05:48
who are competent and reliable but extremely dishonest.
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ki so kompetentni in zanesljivi,
a skrajno neiskreni.
a skrajno neiskreni.
05:51
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
05:52
If so, I haven't yet spotted it.
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Če pa so, tega nisem opazila.
05:56
But that's what we're looking for:
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In vendar je to tisto, kar iščemo:
05:58
trustworthiness before trust.
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vrednost zaupanja pred zaupanjem.
06:00
Trust is the response.
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Zaupanje je le odziv.
06:02
Trustworthiness is what we have to judge.
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Vrednost zaupanja je tisto,
kar je potrebno presojati.
kar je potrebno presojati.
06:04
And, of course, it's difficult.
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Seveda je to težko.
06:06
Across the last few decades, we've tried to construct
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Zadnjih nekaj desetletij
smo si prizadevali zgraditi
smo si prizadevali zgraditi
06:09
systems of accountability for all sorts of institutions
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sisteme odgovornosti za
različne vrste institucij,
različne vrste institucij,
06:13
and professionals and officials and so on
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strokovnjakov, uradnikov ipd.,
06:15
that will make it easier for us to judge their trustworthiness.
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pri katerih bi lahko lažje
presojali, koliko so zaupanja vredni.
presojali, koliko so zaupanja vredni.
06:19
A lot of these systems have the converse effect.
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Velik del teh sistemov
deluje z obratnim učinkom.
deluje z obratnim učinkom.
06:23
They don't work as they're supposed to.
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Ne delujejo tako, kot se od njih pričakuje.
06:24
I remember I was talking with a midwife who said,
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Spomnim se, ko sem govorila
z babico, ki je rekla:
z babico, ki je rekla:
06:29
"Well, you see, the problem is it takes longer
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"Veste, problem je, ker nam več časa vzame
06:31
to do the paperwork than to deliver the baby."
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delo s papirji, kot pa porod otroka."
06:35
And all over our public life, our institutional life,
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V celotnem javnem življenju,
našem institucionalnem življenju,
našem institucionalnem življenju,
06:38
we find that problem,
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vidimo ta problem,
06:40
that the system of accountability
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da ta sistem odgovornosti,
06:43
that is meant to secure trustworthiness
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ki naj bi skrbel za vrednost zaupanja
06:45
and evidence of trustworthiness
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in dokaze o vrednosti zaupanja,
06:48
is actually doing the opposite.
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dela ravno obratno.
06:50
It is distracting people who have to do difficult tasks,
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Gre za oviranje ljudi, ki naj
bi izvajali težke naloge,
bi izvajali težke naloge,
06:54
like midwives, from doing them
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kot npr. babice, da se namesto svojega dela
06:57
by requiring them to tick the boxes, as we say.
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od njih zahteva, da delajo
kljukice, kot pravimo.
kljukice, kot pravimo.
07:00
You can all give your own examples there.
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Vsak od vas lahko ponudi kakšen tak primer.
07:02
So so much for the aim.
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Toliko o cilju.
07:04
The aim, I think, is more trustworthiness,
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Cilj, tako mislim, je vrednost zaupanja
07:07
and that is going to be different
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in to se bo spremenilo le,
07:09
if we are trying to be trustworthy
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če bomo poskusili sami biti zaupanja vredni
07:11
and communicate our trustworthiness to other people,
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in to prenašali tudi na druge.
07:14
and if we are trying to judge whether other people
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In če bomo presojali ali so ljudje,
07:17
or office-holders or politicians are trustworthy.
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najsi bodo vodje pisarn
ali politiki, vredni zaupanja.
ali politiki, vredni zaupanja.
07:20
It's not easy. It is judgment, and simple reaction,
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To ni enostavno. Gre vendarle
za presojo in preprosta reakcija
za presojo in preprosta reakcija
07:25
attitudes, don't do adequately here.
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ali nagnjenje ni nujno ustrezno.
07:30
Now thirdly, the task.
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In tretjič, naloga.
07:33
Calling the task rebuilding trust, I think,
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Reči le, da je naloga
ponovno zgraditi zaupanje,
ponovno zgraditi zaupanje,
07:37
also gets things backwards.
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nas ne bo pripeljalo prav daleč.
07:38
It suggests that you and I should rebuild trust.
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Kajti to bi pomenilo, da bi jaz in vi
morali ponovno zgraditi zaupanje.
morali ponovno zgraditi zaupanje.
07:43
Well, we can do that for ourselves.
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No, lahko bi to naredili zase.
07:46
We can rebuild a bit of trustworthiness.
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Nekaj zaupanja vrednosti
lahko ponovno zgradimo.
lahko ponovno zgradimo.
07:48
We can do it two people together trying to improve trust.
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Lahko to naredimo v dvoje, da izboljšamo zaupanje.
07:52
But trust, in the end, is distinctive
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Toda zaupanje je nenazadnje drugačno,
07:55
because it's given by other people.
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saj je nekaj, kar dobiš od drugih.
07:58
You can't rebuild what other people give you.
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Ne moreš kar zgraditi nečesa,
kar ti lahko dajo drugi.
kar ti lahko dajo drugi.
08:01
You have to give them the basis
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Morate jim dati osnovo
08:04
for giving you their trust.
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za to, da vam pričnejo zaupati.
08:07
So you have to, I think, be trustworthy.
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Torej biti morate vredni zaupanja.
08:10
And that, of course, is because you can't fool
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To pa zato, ker ne morete slepiti
08:12
all of the people all of the time, usually.
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vseh ljudi ves čas - vsaj običajno ne.
08:16
But you also have to provide usable evidence
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Toda pri tem morate zagotoviti
tudi uporabne dokaze,
tudi uporabne dokaze,
08:21
that you are trustworthy.
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da ste vredni zaupanja.
08:22
How to do it?
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Kako to narediti?
08:24
Well every day, all over the place, it's being done
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Vsak dan in vsepovsod to že počno
08:27
by ordinary people, by officials, by institutions,
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običajni ljudje, uradniki, ustanove,
08:30
quite effectively.
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in to kar učinkovito.
08:32
Let me give you a simple commercial example.
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Naj vam dam preprost trgovski primer.
08:35
The shop where I buy my socks says I may take them back,
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Trgovina, kjer kupujem nogavice,
pravi, da jih lahko vrnem
pravi, da jih lahko vrnem
08:39
and they don't ask any questions.
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brez vsakih vprašanj.
08:41
They take them back and give me the money
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Vzamejo jih in mi povrnejo denar
08:43
or give me the pair of socks of the color I wanted.
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ali pa mi ponudijo par
nogavic v barvi, ki jo želim.
nogavic v barvi, ki jo želim.
08:46
That's super. I trust them
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To je super. Jaz jim zaupam,
08:48
because they have made themselves vulnerable to me.
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ker so se mi pokazali, da so lahko ranljivi.
08:51
I think there's a big lesson in that.
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Menim, da je v tem velik nauk.
08:53
If you make yourself vulnerable to the other party,
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Če ste pripravljeni vašo
ranljivost pokazati drugemu,
ranljivost pokazati drugemu,
08:56
then that is very good evidence that you are trustworthy
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je to kar tehten dokaz,
da ste vredni zaupanja.
da ste vredni zaupanja.
09:00
and you have confidence in what you are saying.
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In tudi vi verjamete temu, kar govorite.
09:03
So in the end, I think what we are aiming for
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Torej na koncu mislim,
da to, proti čemur stremimo,
da to, proti čemur stremimo,
09:06
is not very difficult to discern.
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ni prav težko dojeti.
09:09
It is relationships in which people are trustworthy
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To je odnos, v katerem so
ljudje zaupanja vredni
ljudje zaupanja vredni
09:13
and can judge when and how the other person
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in lahko sami presodijo,
kdaj in kako je druga oseba
kdaj in kako je druga oseba
09:17
is trustworthy.
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vredna zaupanja.
09:18
So the moral of all this is,
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In nauk vsega tega je,
09:22
we need to think much less about trust,
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da moramo manj razmišljati o zaupanju,
09:25
let alone about attitudes of trust
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pri miru je potrebno pustiti
odnos do zaupanja,
odnos do zaupanja,
09:29
detected or mis-detected by opinion polls,
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ki ga zaznavamo iz javnomnenjskih anket,
09:33
much more about being trustworthy,
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več pa o tem, kako biti zaupanja vreden,
09:35
and how you give people adequate, useful
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in tem, kako ljudem dajete ustrezne, uporabne
09:39
and simple evidence that you're trustworthy.
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in preproste dokaze, da ste zaupanja vredni.
09:42
Thanks.
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Hvala.
09:43
(Applause)
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(Aplavz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Onora O'Neill - PhilosopherBaroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life.
Why you should listen
Philosopher Baroness Onora O'Neill thinks we are perverting trust. Considering how much stock we put into trust and assessing trusting attitudes, it's something we don't really understand, argues O'Neill. What we really need, she says, is not trust -- but trustworthiness. In addition to her study of how we (wrongly) approach trust and accountability in civic life, O'Neill also focuses on bioethics and international justice.
O'Neill's most recent book, co-written with Neil Manson is Rethinking Informed Consent in Bioethics, published in 2007. She was Principal of Newnham College, a college of the University of Cambridge, from 1992 to 2006, and President of the British Academy from 2005 to 2009. In early 2013 O'Neill was confirmed as the new Chair of England's Equality and Human Rights Commission. She is a crossbench member of the House of Lords.
Onora O'Neill | Speaker | TED.com