TEDxHousesOfParliament
Onora O'Neill: What we don't understand about trust
Onora O'Neill: 我们误解“信任”
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信任感在降低，我们需要重建信任。这是我们为了建设一个更美好的社会经常听到的提议。但是，哲学家奥诺拉•奥尼尔说，我们并不真正理解我们在建议什么。她逐个分析这些问题，告诉我们对于信任的最普遍的三个观点其实是有误导性的。 （摄于TEDx 议会院）
Onora O'Neill - Philosopher
Baroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life. Full bio
Baroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So I'm going to talk about trust,
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我今天要讲的是信任。
00:14
and I'm going to start by reminding you
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一开始，我要先向你们交代一下，
00:16
of the standard views that people have about trust.
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人们对信任的基本观点。
00:20
I think these are so commonplace,
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我觉得这些观点都很司空见惯，
00:22
they've become clichés of our society.
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在现实社会已经变成陈词滥调了。
00:25
And I think there are three.
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我想一共有这样三点。
00:27
One's a claim: there has been a great decline in trust,
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第一点是主张：信任感已经大幅地降低了。
00:31
very widely believed.
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这已经是有广泛共识的。
00:33
The second is an aim: we should have more trust.
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第二点是目的：我们应该有更多的信任感。
00:38
And the third is a task: we should rebuild trust.
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第三点是任务：我们应该重建信任感。
00:43
I think that the claim, the aim and the task
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我觉得人们对这个主张、目的和任务
00:48
are all misconceived.
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都有错误的认识。
00:50
So what I'm going to try to tell you today
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所以我今天要跟你们说的是
00:52
is a different story about a claim, an aim and a task
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跟这种主张、目的和任务有所不同的观点。
00:56
which I think give one quite a lot better purchase on the matter.
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我想让你们更好地理解信任。
01:01
First the claim: Why do people think trust has declined?
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首先是主张：为什么人们认为信任感在降低呢？
01:06
And if I really think about it on the basis of my own evidence,
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如果我在现有证据的基础上考虑，
01:09
I don't know the answer.
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我真的不知道答案是什么。
01:11
I'm inclined to think it may have declined
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我倾向于认为信任感确实是有降低，
01:15
in some activities or some institutions
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但那是在某些活动中，或者在某些机构里。
01:18
and it might have grown in others.
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而在其他的方面也许是增加的。
01:20
I don't have an overview.
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我没法一概而论。
01:22
But, of course, I can look at the opinion polls,
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但当然了，我可以去看看民意调查，
01:27
and the opinion polls are supposedly
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民意调查应该是
01:29
the source of a belief that trust has declined.
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觉得信任感在降低的出处。
01:33
When you actually look at opinion polls across time,
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但当你真的去看看不同时间的民意调查的话，
01:37
there's not much evidence for that.
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其实没有多少证据支持这个观点。
01:39
That's to say, the people who were mistrusted
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也就是说，那些
01:41
20 years ago,
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在20年前就不被相信的人
01:43
principally journalists and politicians, are still mistrusted.
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主要是记者和政客，现在仍不被信任。
01:47
And the people who were highly trusted 20 years ago
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而20年前就被高度信任的人，
01:51
are still rather highly trusted: judges, nurses.
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比如法官和护士，现在仍得到高度的信任。
01:54
The rest of us are in between,
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剩下的人就是居中了。
01:56
and by the way, the average person in the street
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顺便说一下，在社会上这些居中的人，
01:59
is almost exactly midway.
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差不多就是完全居中。
02:01
But is that good evidence?
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但是这个证据说得过去吗？
02:03
What opinion polls record is, of course, opinions.
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民意调查记录的当然就是一些人们的观点。
02:08
What else can they record?
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要不然民意调查能记录什么？
02:09
So they're looking at the generic attitudes
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不过就是一些普遍的态度。
02:13
that people report when you ask them certain questions.
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你问他们什么，他们就说什么。
02:16
Do you trust politicians? Do you trust teachers?
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你信任政客吗？信任老师吗？
02:20
Now if somebody said to you, "Do you trust greengrocers?
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如果有人问你，“你信任蔬菜商吗？”
02:24
Do you trust fishmongers?
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你信任卖鱼的吗？
02:26
Do you trust elementary school teachers?"
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你信任小学老师吗？
02:28
you would probably begin by saying, "To do what?"
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你可能会问，“信任他们去做什么？”
02:32
And that would be a perfectly sensible response.
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这是一个非常明智的反问。
02:35
And you might say, when you understood the answer to that,
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当你明白问题到底是什么, 你会说，
02:40
"Well, I trust some of them, but not others."
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“嗯。我相信一些人，不相信另一些人。”
02:44
That's a perfectly rational thing.
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非常理性的回答。
02:46
In short, in our real lives,
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简而言之，在我们现实生活中，
02:49
we seek to place trust in a differentiated way.
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我们以不同的方式来寻求信任。
02:52
We don't make an assumption that the level of trust
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我们不对信任感的程度做假设。
02:56
that we will have in every instance of a certain type
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我们会对特定类型进行具体分析。
02:59
of official or office-holder or type of person
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那些公务员，官员之类的人，
03:03
is going to be uniform.
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会被类型化。
03:05
I might, for example, say that I certainly trust
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比如说，我会说我当然相信
03:09
a certain elementary school teacher I know
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一个我知道的小学老师
03:11
to teach the reception class to read,
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会教会学生怎么阅读。
03:14
but in no way to drive the school minibus.
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但是我不相信她可以开校车。
03:18
I might, after all, know that she wasn't a good driver.
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也许最终我知道她确实不是个好司机。
03:21
I might trust my most loquacious friend
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我也许相信我那爱喝酒的朋友
03:24
to keep a conversation going
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是个聊天的好伙伴。
03:26
but not -- but perhaps not to keep a secret.
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但我不会相信他是个守得住秘密的人。
03:36
Simple.
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就这么简单。
03:37
So if we've got those evidence in our ordinary lives
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在日常生活中我们有了这样的证据，
03:42
of the way that trust is differentiated,
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说信任感是有区分的，
03:44
why do we sort of drop all that intelligence
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那么为什么民意调查时我们一下子糊涂了，
03:47
when we think about trust more abstractly?
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把信任感想得更概念化了呢？
03:51
I think the polls are very bad guides
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我觉得民意调查是个很差劲的
03:54
to the level of trust that actually exists,
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衡量信任感是否存在的依据。
03:57
because they try to obliterate the good judgment
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因为它抹杀了人们良好的判断力。
04:00
that goes into placing trust.
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对考虑信任感的判断力。
04:04
Secondly, what about the aim?
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第二，那个目的是怎么回事儿呢？
04:06
The aim is to have more trust.
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目的是我们需要更多的信任感。
04:09
Well frankly, I think that's a stupid aim.
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坦白说，我觉得这个目的挺可笑的。
04:12
It's not what I would aim at.
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这不是我想的那个目的。
04:14
I would aim to have more trust in the trustworthy
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我会说，人们应该对值得信赖的（人）更加地信任。
04:17
but not in the untrustworthy.
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而不是去信任不值得信赖的人。
04:20
In fact, I aim positively to try not to trust the untrustworthy.
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实际上，我所说的目的是尽量不要信任不值得信赖的人。
04:27
And I think, of those people who, for example,
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比如说，那些
04:30
placed their savings with the very aptly named Mr. Madoff,
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把自己的积蓄交给那个看起来很象样的
04:35
who then made off with them,
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却把他们的钱都卷走的麦道夫先生
04:38
and I think of them, and I think, well, yes,
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的人，我觉得那些人呀，怎么说呢，对，
04:40
too much trust.
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太容易信任别人了。
04:42
More trust is not an intelligent aim in this life.
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过度地信任别人不是一个很明智的目的。
04:46
Intelligently placed and intelligently refused trust
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明智地信任和明智地选择不信任
04:50
is the proper aim.
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才是正确的目的。
04:52
Well once one says that, one says, yeah, okay,
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那么有人说，好呀，好，
04:56
that means that what matters in the first place
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这不就是说最重要的
04:59
is not trust but trustworthiness.
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不是要去信任，而是（对方的）信誉度吗？
05:02
It's judging how trustworthy people are
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就是说要判断别人在某些方面
05:05
in particular respects.
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是否值得信任。
05:07
And I think that judgment requires us to look at three things.
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我觉得要想正确做出判断需要考虑三点。
05:10
Are they competent? Are they honest? Are they reliable?
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要看他们是否称职？是否诚实？是否可靠？
05:15
And if we find that a person is competent
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如果我们觉得一个人是称职的，
05:18
in the relevant matters,
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在他自己的领域是称职的。
05:19
and reliable and honest,
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而且是诚实可靠的。
05:21
we'll have a pretty good reason to trust them,
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我们就有理由去相信他们，
05:23
because they'll be trustworthy.
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因为他们是可信赖的。
05:26
But if, on the other hand, they're unreliable, we might not.
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但是反过来，如果他们不可靠，那我们就不能信任他们。
05:29
I have friends who are competent and honest,
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我有一些诚实可靠的朋友，
05:32
but I would not trust them to post a letter,
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但我就信不着他们去帮我寄信，
05:33
because they're forgetful.
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因为他们很健忘。
05:36
I have friends who are very confident
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我有些非常自信的朋友，
05:39
they can do certain things,
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他们很能干，
05:41
but I realize that they overestimate their own competence.
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但是我觉得他们有些过于自信。
05:45
And I'm very glad to say, I don't think I have many friends
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当然我很高兴的是，我的朋友都是
05:48
who are competent and reliable but extremely dishonest.
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称职可靠，又不是非常不诚实的。
05:51
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
05:52
If so, I haven't yet spotted it.
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也许有，我还没发现。
05:56
But that's what we're looking for:
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我们需要的就是：
05:58
trustworthiness before trust.
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信任别人之前要看他的信誉度。
06:00
Trust is the response.
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信任是我们的反应。
06:02
Trustworthiness is what we have to judge.
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信誉度是需要我们来判断的。
06:04
And, of course, it's difficult.
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所以当然这不是容易做到的。
06:06
Across the last few decades, we've tried to construct
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过去的几十年里，我们努力地建立
06:09
systems of accountability for all sorts of institutions
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各种机构里的问责制度，
06:13
and professionals and officials and so on
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是否达到专业水准或者官方要求等等
06:15
that will make it easier for us to judge their trustworthiness.
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这些（问责制度）使我们更容易判断（这些机构）是否有信誉。
06:19
A lot of these systems have the converse effect.
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很多机构都有这样的逆反应。
06:23
They don't work as they're supposed to.
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他们不象他们应该做的那样做事。
06:24
I remember I was talking with a midwife who said,
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我记得和我一个助产士聊天，她说
06:29
"Well, you see, the problem is it takes longer
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”你看看，现在的问题是我要
06:31
to do the paperwork than to deliver the baby."
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办个什么手续比接生一个孩子还难！“
06:35
And all over our public life, our institutional life,
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在我们的公共生活里，我们的机构生活里，
06:38
we find that problem,
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我们发现很多问题。
06:40
that the system of accountability
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这些机构里的问责制度
06:43
that is meant to secure trustworthiness
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这些能保障自己的信誉
06:45
and evidence of trustworthiness
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能作为值得信任的依据的制度
06:48
is actually doing the opposite.
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往往施行起来是相反的。
06:50
It is distracting people who have to do difficult tasks,
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这就使人们难以专注自己的工作，
06:54
like midwives, from doing them
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比如助产士们，
06:57
by requiring them to tick the boxes, as we say.
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让他们把时间浪费在填表上。就象我刚提到的。
07:00
You can all give your own examples there.
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你们其实都有这样的经历。
07:02
So so much for the aim.
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关于目的要讲的很多很多。
07:04
The aim, I think, is more trustworthiness,
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我想这个目的更重要的是对方的信誉度。
07:07
and that is going to be different
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那就完全不一样了。
07:09
if we are trying to be trustworthy
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比如说我们努力去成为值得信任的人，
07:11
and communicate our trustworthiness to other people,
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把我们值得信任的一面展示给别人。
07:14
and if we are trying to judge whether other people
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比如说我们先判断别人，
07:17
or office-holders or politicians are trustworthy.
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官员或者政客是否值得信任。
07:20
It's not easy. It is judgment, and simple reaction,
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这不是容易的事。这是判断，是迅速反应，
07:25
attitudes, don't do adequately here.
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是态度，在这里都讲不完。
07:30
Now thirdly, the task.
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那么第三点，关于任务。
07:33
Calling the task rebuilding trust, I think,
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这个任务叫做重建信任感。
07:37
also gets things backwards.
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这又是弄反了的。
07:38
It suggests that you and I should rebuild trust.
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这个任务建议你和我要重建信任。
07:43
Well, we can do that for ourselves.
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好吧，我们能对自己这么做，
07:46
We can rebuild a bit of trustworthiness.
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我们能重建一些自己的信誉，
07:48
We can do it two people together trying to improve trust.
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我们可以互相努力增加我们的信任。
07:52
But trust, in the end, is distinctive
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但关根到底，信任是很独特的。
07:55
because it's given by other people.
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因为（信任）是来自他人的。
07:58
You can't rebuild what other people give you.
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你不可能重建别人对你的看法。
08:01
You have to give them the basis
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你需要做出努力
08:04
for giving you their trust.
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让人家信任你。
08:07
So you have to, I think, be trustworthy.
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我是说，你要成为一个值得信赖的人。
08:10
And that, of course, is because you can't fool
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当然，这就是说你不能
08:12
all of the people all of the time, usually.
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在永远愚弄住所有的人，一般来说。
08:16
But you also have to provide usable evidence
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你得提供一些有用的依据，
08:21
that you are trustworthy.
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让别人知道你是值得信赖的。
08:22
How to do it?
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应该怎么做？
08:24
Well every day, all over the place, it's being done
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其实每天，在不同得地方，
08:27
by ordinary people, by officials, by institutions,
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普通人，办公人员，各个机构都在努力（博得信任），
08:30
quite effectively.
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往往做得很有效呢。
08:32
Let me give you a simple commercial example.
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我给你举个简单的商家营销的例子，
08:35
The shop where I buy my socks says I may take them back,
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有个商店说（如果不满意）我可以把买的袜子退回去，
08:39
and they don't ask any questions.
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他们绝不问任何问题。
08:41
They take them back and give me the money
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他们收退货，我拿退货款。
08:43
or give me the pair of socks of the color I wanted.
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或者给我换是我喜欢颜色的袜子。
08:46
That's super. I trust them
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这很好。我信任他们。
08:48
because they have made themselves vulnerable to me.
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因为他们让我觉得他们是处于弱势。
08:51
I think there's a big lesson in that.
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我觉得这很有教益。
08:53
If you make yourself vulnerable to the other party,
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如果对于别人，你使自己处于弱势，
08:56
then that is very good evidence that you are trustworthy
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这就是个很好的值得信任的依据。
09:00
and you have confidence in what you are saying.
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对自己说的话就有自信。
09:03
So in the end, I think what we are aiming for
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所以最终呢，我们的意图
09:06
is not very difficult to discern.
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就不那么难辨别了。
09:09
It is relationships in which people are trustworthy
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人们是否值得信任是一种人和人之间的关系。
09:13
and can judge when and how the other person
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我们可以判断什么时候人们是如何
09:17
is trustworthy.
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值得你信任的。
09:18
So the moral of all this is,
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从道义上说，
09:22
we need to think much less about trust,
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我们要少考虑信任，
09:25
let alone about attitudes of trust
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更不要说对信任的态度，
09:29
detected or mis-detected by opinion polls,
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或者凭着民意测验来判断或者误判，
09:33
much more about being trustworthy,
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让我们更关注于成为值得信赖的人。
09:35
and how you give people adequate, useful
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关注于如何提供恰当、有益
09:39
and simple evidence that you're trustworthy.
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简单的依据让人们觉得你是可以信赖的。
09:42
Thanks.
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谢谢！
09:43
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Onora O'Neill - PhilosopherBaroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life.
Why you should listen
Philosopher Baroness Onora O'Neill thinks we are perverting trust. Considering how much stock we put into trust and assessing trusting attitudes, it's something we don't really understand, argues O'Neill. What we really need, she says, is not trust -- but trustworthiness. In addition to her study of how we (wrongly) approach trust and accountability in civic life, O'Neill also focuses on bioethics and international justice.
O'Neill's most recent book, co-written with Neil Manson is Rethinking Informed Consent in Bioethics, published in 2007. She was Principal of Newnham College, a college of the University of Cambridge, from 1992 to 2006, and President of the British Academy from 2005 to 2009. In early 2013 O'Neill was confirmed as the new Chair of England's Equality and Human Rights Commission. She is a crossbench member of the House of Lords.
Onora O'Neill | Speaker | TED.com