TEDxNorthwesternU
Alice Dreger: Is anatomy destiny?
艾丽丝·德雷格尔：出身决定命运？
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艾丽丝·德雷格尔和她的同伴一起从事于边缘解剖学，例如连体儿和双性人。根据她的观察，在其他的结构特征中，男性和女性的分界线是很模糊的。为我们带来了一个问题：为什么要让我们的生理特征决定我们的命运。
Alice Dreger - Historian
Alice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate. Full bio
Alice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I want you to imagine two couples
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我希望大家设想一下， 两对夫妇
00:18
in the middle of 1979
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在1979年的年中
00:20
on the exact same day, at the exact same moment,
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在相同的一天，相同的时刻
00:23
each conceiving a baby -- okay?
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每对怀上了一个孩子 -- 好
00:25
So two couples each conceiving one baby.
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那么两对夫妇各自都都怀上了一个孩子
00:27
Now I don't want you to spend too much time imagining the conception,
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现在，我不希望大家花太多的时间去想象怀孕
00:30
because if you spend all that time imagining that conception,
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因为如果你花太多时间去想它
00:32
you're not going to listen to me.
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你就不会听我说了
00:34
So just imagine that for a moment.
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所以稍微想一下就好了
00:36
And in this scenario,
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那么在这种情况下
00:38
I want to imagine that, in one case,
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我来设想一下，一个个例是
00:40
the sperm is carrying a Y chromosome,
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携带着Y染色体的精子
00:42
meeting that X chromosome of the egg.
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遇到携带着X染色体的卵子
00:44
And in the other case,
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另一个是
00:46
the sperm is carrying an X chromosome,
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携带着X染色体的精子
00:48
meeting the X chromosome of the egg.
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遇到携带着X染色体的卵子
00:50
Both are viable; both take off.
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两个都存活下来了，两个都开始发育
00:52
We'll come back to these people later.
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我们之后再来看这两对夫妇
00:54
So I wear two hats
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我担任两个角色
00:56
in most of what I do.
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在我所从事的领域
00:58
As the one hat,
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一个角色是
01:00
I do history of anatomy.
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我做解剖学历史研究
01:02
I'm a historian by training,
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我是个史学工作者
01:04
and what I study in that case
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我所研究的是
01:06
is the way that people have dealt with anatomy --
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人类是怎么对待解剖学的——
01:09
meaning human bodies, animal bodies --
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对无论是人类躯体，或是动物躯体——
01:11
how they dealt with bodily fluids, concepts of bodies;
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他们如何处理体液，抽象的躯体
01:14
how have they thought about bodies.
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他们是如何看待躯体的
01:16
The other hat that I've worn in my work
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另一个角色是
01:18
is as an activist,
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一名社会活动家
01:20
as a patient advocate --
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作为一个为病人辩护人的角色——
01:22
or, as I sometimes say, as an impatient advocate --
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或者说，像我有时候说的，作为医生们的病人的辩护人——
01:25
for people who are patients of doctors.
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我是很激进的
01:27
In that case, what I've worked with
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那样的话，在我工作中
01:29
is people who have body types
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所接触到的是一些
01:31
that challenge social norms.
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挑战着社会规范的人
01:33
So some of what I've worked on, for example,
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比如，我接触到的一些人
01:35
is people who are conjoined twins --
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是连体婴儿
01:37
two people within one body.
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两个人共用一个身体
01:39
Some of what I've worked on is people who have dwarfism --
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还有一些是侏儒症患者
01:41
so people who are much shorter than typical.
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他们比一般人要矮小的多
01:44
And a lot of what I've worked on
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另外，许多我接触的人
01:46
is people who have atypical sex --
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他们的性别与众不同 --
01:48
so people who don't have the standard male
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即他们没有很标准的男性特征
01:50
or the standard female body types.
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或者女性特有的身体特征
01:52
And as a general term, we can use the term intersex for this.
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总的来说，这个症状可以被叫做双性人
01:56
Intersex comes in a lot of different forms.
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双性可以有多种的形式
01:58
I'll just give you a few examples
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我来举几个例子
02:00
of the types of ways you can have sex
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来说明你可以具有
02:02
that isn't standard for male or female.
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既不是标准的男性特征也不是标准的女性特征的类型
02:04
So in one instance,
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例子之一
02:06
you can have somebody who has an XY chromosomal basis,
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一个人可以拥有XY染色体
02:09
and that SRY gene on the Y chromosome
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并且，在Y染色体上的SRY基因(雄性性别决定基因)
02:12
tells the proto-gonads, which we all have in the fetal life,
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刺激我们在胎儿时期都有的原始性腺
02:14
to become testes.
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使其变成睾丸
02:16
And so in the fetal life the testes are pumping out testosterone.
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因此在胎儿时期，睾丸分泌睾丸激素
02:19
But because this individual lacks receptors
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但是这个个体缺少受体
02:22
to hear that testosterone,
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来接收睾丸激素
02:24
the body doesn't react to the testosterone.
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身体不能对睾丸激素做出反应
02:26
And this is a syndrome called androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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这是一种叫做睾丸不敏感（睾丸女性化）综合征
02:30
So lots of levels of testosterone, but no reaction to it.
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所以，睾丸激素的量很大，但是不能引起反应
02:33
As a consequence, the body develops
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因此，身体就会朝着
02:35
more along the female typical path.
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女性化的趋势发展
02:37
When the child is born, she looks like a girl.
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当婴儿诞生时，她看起来像个女孩儿
02:39
She is a girl. She is raised as a girl.
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她就是女孩儿，并且被当作小姑娘来抚养
02:42
And it's often not until she hits puberty
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大多数情况，直到青春期
02:44
and she's growing and developing breasts,
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她的胸部开始发育的时候
02:46
but she's not getting her period,
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她却没有女性周期
02:48
that somebody figures out something's up here.
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这时我们才会开始怀疑有什么差错
02:50
And they do some tests and figure out
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于是他们检查发现
02:52
that, instead of having ovaries inside and a uterus,
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她并没有卵巢和子宫
02:54
she actually has testes inside, and she has a Y chromosome.
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实际上，在她身体内有睾丸，并且她携带着Y染色体
02:57
Now what's important to understand
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现在，有一个重要问题需要说明的是
02:59
is you may think of this person as really being male,
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大家一定认为这个人实际上是个男孩儿
03:01
but they're really not.
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其实并非如此
03:03
Females, like males,
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女性，和男性一样
03:05
have in our bodies something called the adrenal glands.
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体内有一个器官叫做肾上腺
03:07
They're in the back of our body.
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它在我们身体的后端
03:09
And the adrenal glands make androgens,
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并且肾上腺负责分泌雄性激素
03:11
which are a masculinizing hormone.
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即一种雄性荷尔蒙
03:13
Most females like me -- I believe myself to be a typical female --
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像我一样的大多数女性--我相信我自己是个典型的女性--
03:15
I don't actually know my chromosomal make-up
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我其实不太清楚我的染色体的组成
03:17
but I think I'm probably typical --
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但是我想我应该是有典型的女性——
03:19
most females like me are actually androgen-sensitive.
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大多数像我一样的女性实际上是雄激素敏感的
03:22
We're making androgen, and we're responding to androgens.
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我们分泌雄性激素，并且对它有反应
03:25
The consequence is that somebody like me
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结果是，有的像我一样女性，
03:27
has actually had a brain exposed to more androgens
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大脑暴露在过多的雄性激素下
03:30
than the woman born with testes
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比那个出生时有睾丸的女孩
03:32
who has androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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那个雄性激素不敏感综合征的女孩有的雄性激素还多
03:34
So sex is really complicated; it's not just that intersex people
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所以说性别是个非常复杂的东西；并不是说那些双性的人
03:36
are in the middle of all the sex spectrum --
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就处在男性和女性之间——
03:38
in some ways, they can be all over the place.
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在某些方面，他们可以覆盖整个性特征的范围
03:40
Another example:
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还有一个例子
03:42
a few years ago I got a call from a man who was 19 years old,
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几年前，我接到一个十九岁的男孩打来的电话
03:45
who was born a boy, raised a boy,
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他生下来是个男孩，也被当作男孩来养
03:47
had a girlfriend, had sex with his girlfriend,
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后来有了女朋友，也和女友发生了性关系
03:50
had a life as a guy
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一直过着男孩的生活
03:52
and had just found out that he had ovaries and a uterus inside.
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但是最近，他发现自己体内有卵巢和子宫
03:55
What he had was an extreme form
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他所有的是一种很极端的病症
03:57
of a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
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叫做类固醇21-羟化酶缺乏症
03:59
He had XX chromosomes,
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他携带XX染色体
04:01
and in the womb,
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并且在子宫内的时候
04:03
his adrenal glands were in such high gear
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他的肾上腺很活跃
04:05
that it created, essentially, a masculine hormonal environment.
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从而形成了一个男性荷尔蒙的环境
04:09
And as a consequence, his genitals were masculinzed,
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结果就是，他发育了男性生殖器官
04:11
his brain was subject
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他的大脑接受了
04:13
to the more typical masculine component of hormones.
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更多的典型的男性荷尔蒙
04:15
And he was born looking like a boy -- nobody suspected anything.
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因此他生下来看起来像个男孩儿--根本没人怀疑
04:18
And it was only when he had reached the age of 19
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只有当他长到19岁的时候
04:21
that he began to have enough medical problems
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当他开始遇到生理问题的时候
04:23
actually from menstruating internally,
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其实是在体内出现月经起
04:25
that doctors figured out that, in fact, he was female internally.
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医生发现，实际上他的内部是女性
04:28
Okay, so just one more quick example
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好，我们再来快速的看一个例子
04:30
of a way you can have intersex.
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另一个可能带来两性特征的情况
04:32
Some people who have XX chromosomes
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有XX染色体的一些人
04:34
develop what are called ovotestis,
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会发育一种叫做卵睾的器官
04:36
which is when you have ovarian tissue
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也就是当卵巢组织
04:38
with testicular tissue wrapped around it.
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被睾丸组织包裹起来的一种器官
04:40
And we're not exactly sure why that happens.
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我们还不能确定它的成因
04:42
So sex can come in lots of different varieties.
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所以说性别可以是很多种形式
04:45
The reason
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拥有这些身体特征的
04:47
that children with these kinds of bodies --
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孩子们——
04:49
whether it's dwarfism, or it's conjoined twinning,
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不论是侏儒症，或者连体婴儿
04:52
or it's an intersex type --
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或者是双性型的——
04:54
are often normalized by surgeons
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常被外科医生手术纠正的原因
04:56
is not because it actually leaves them better off
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实际上并不是为了
04:58
in terms of physical health.
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身体健康
05:00
In many cases, people are actually perfectly healthy.
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因为很多情况下，他们的身体其实都很健康
05:03
The reason they're often subject to various kinds of surgeries
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他们接受各种外科手术的原因
05:06
is because they threaten our social categories.
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是因为他们受到我们社会上对人分类的威胁
05:09
Or system has been based typically on the idea
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或者说社会上已经有一个典型的认识
05:12
that a particular kind of anatomy comes with a particular identity.
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什么样的身体结构，有什么样的特征
05:15
So we have the concept that what it means to be a woman
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因此，我们的概念就是作为一个女人
05:17
is to have a female identity;
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就必须有女性的特性
05:19
what it means to be a black person is, allegedly,
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以此类推，一个黑人
05:21
is to have an African anatomy
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就得具有非洲人的身体结构特征
05:24
in terms of your history.
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在你的履历中
05:26
And so we have this terribly simplistic idea.
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因此我们就有了这种过于简单的认识
05:29
And when we're faced with a body
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当我们面对一个
05:31
that actually presents us something quite different,
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某些方面是与众不同的身体的时候
05:34
it startles us in terms of those categorizations.
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那些不能归类的想法让我们感到吃惊
05:37
So we have a lot of very romantic ideas in our culture
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因此我们的文化中有很多天真的想法
05:39
about individualism.
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是关于个人主义的
05:41
And our nation's really founded on a very romantic concept of individualism.
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并且我们国家建立在一个非常不实际的个人主义的概念上的
05:44
Well you can imagine how startling then it is
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好，你可以想象那多么令人震惊
05:47
when you have children that are born
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当你的两个孩子
05:49
who are two people inside of one body.
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出生的时候是在一个身体中的
05:51
Where I ran into the most heat from this most recently
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我最近一次遇到这种情况是
05:55
was last year the South African runner, Caster Semenya,
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去年的时候，非洲田径运动员，卡斯特尔·塞门亚
05:58
had her sex called into question at the International Games in Berlin.
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在柏林国际比赛中被质疑性别问题
06:01
I had a lot of journalists calling me, asking me,
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许多记者给我打电话，问我
06:04
"Which is the test they're going to run
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“他们会用哪种检测方法
06:06
that will tell us whether or not
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来向大家证明
06:08
Caster Semenya is male or female?"
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卡斯特尔·塞门亚是男还是女？”
06:10
And I had to explain to the journalists there isn't such a test.
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于是我不得不跟他们解释说，根本没有检测的方法
06:13
In fact, we now know
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事实上，我们现在已经了解
06:15
that sex is complicated enough
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性别是非常复杂的
06:17
that we have to admit
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我们不得不承认
06:19
nature doesn't draw the line for us between male and female,
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大自然根本就没有一个明确的分界线来区分男性或女性
06:22
or between male and intersex and female and intersex;
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或者男性和双性以及女性和双性
06:25
we actually draw that line on nature.
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这条分界线实际上是我们自己画的
06:28
So what we have is a sort of situation
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因此我们现在的情况是
06:30
where the farther our science goes,
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科学越发展
06:32
the more we have to admit to ourselves
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我们越得承认
06:34
that these categories
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这些性别的分类形式
06:36
that we thought of as stable anatomical categories
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也就是我们认为很理所当然的身体结构学上的分类
06:38
that mapped very simply
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是过于简单地
06:40
to stable identity categories
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给特性分了类
06:42
are a lot more fuzzy than we thought.
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实际情况要比我们想象的模糊的多
06:44
And it's not just in terms of sex.
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并且这不仅仅是关于性别的问题
06:46
It's also in terms of race,
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也同样是关于种族的问题
06:48
which turns out to be vastly more complicated
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这个复杂程度
06:50
than our terminology has allowed.
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远不是我们的学术语言所能形容的
06:52
As we look, we get into all sorts of uncomfortable areas.
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如我们所见，我们涉及各种各样艰难的领域
06:55
We look, for example, about the fact
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我们来看一个例子，现实情况是
06:57
that we share at least 95 percent of our DNA
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我们用95%的人类的DNA
06:59
with chimpanzees.
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与大猩猩进行对比
07:01
What are we to make of the fact
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得出的事实是
07:03
that we differ from them only really by a few nucleotides?
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人类和大猩猩的DNA只是在一些核苷酸上有所不同
07:06
And as we get farther and farther with our science,
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科技越发展
07:09
we get more and more into a discomforted zone
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我们越会涉及到让人苦恼的领域
07:11
where we have to acknowledge
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我们必须承认
07:13
that the simplistic categories we've had
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那些沿用的简单的分类
07:15
are probably overly simplistic.
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是过于简单化了
07:17
So we're seeing this
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正因如此，我们正在审视着
07:19
in all sorts of places in human life.
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人类生活中的各个领域
07:21
One of the places we're seeing it, for example,
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其中的一个领域，举个例子
07:23
in our culture today, in the United States today,
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就是我们的文化领域，当今美国的文化领域
07:25
is battles over the beginning of life and the end of life.
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热议着生命的起源和终结
07:28
We have difficult conversations
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我们有一个艰难的讨论
07:30
about at what point we decide a body becomes a human,
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关于我们什么时候从一个躯体变成了一个人类
07:33
such that it has a different right than a fetal life.
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从而有了不同于胎儿的权利
07:36
We have very difficult conversations nowadays --
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我们当今有一个非常有争议的话题——
07:38
probably not out in the open as much as within medicine --
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也许在外部不如在医学界内争论的激烈——
07:41
about the question of when somebody's dead.
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是关于何时认定为人死亡的疑问
07:43
In the past, our ancestors never had to struggle so much
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过去，人死的时候
07:45
with this question of when somebody was dead.
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我们的祖先从来不会过多的纠结于此
07:47
At most, they'd stick a feather on somebody's nose,
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最多也就是把一个羽毛粘在人的鼻子下
07:49
and if it twitched, they didn't bury them yet.
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如果羽毛动了，旁人就不会把他们埋掉
07:51
If it stopped twitching, you bury them.
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如果羽毛不动，就会埋了他们
07:54
But today, we have a situation
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但是如今的情况都是
07:56
where we want to take vital organs out of beings
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我们希望把死者的器官
07:58
and give them to other beings.
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移植到其他人的身体上
08:00
And as a consequence,
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结果
08:02
we're stuck with having to struggle with this really difficult question
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我们开始纠结在上面所提到的难题中
08:04
about who's dead,
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关于到底死了没有
08:06
and this leads us to a really difficult situation
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这导致我们进入一个很困难的情况
08:08
where we don't have such simple categories as we've had before.
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这个情况没有之前简单的分类了
08:11
Now you might think that all this breaking-down of categories
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现在你也许会想，所有的这些正在崩溃的分类
08:14
would make somebody like me really happy.
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也许会让像我这样的人感到高兴
08:16
I'm a political progressive, I defend people with unusual bodies,
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我是一个在政治观点上不断进步的人，我维护那些身体异于常人的人
08:19
but I have to admit to you that it makes me nervous.
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但是我必须承认，这种改变让我感到不安
08:21
Understanding that these categories
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认识到这些分类制度
08:23
are really much more unstable than we thought makes me tense.
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比我们想象的还不稳定，使我感到紧张
08:26
And it makes me tense
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同时，我的紧张来自于
08:28
from the point of view of thinking about democracy.
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民主的观点
08:30
So in order to tell you about that tension,
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所以，为了告诉大家这种紧张的程度
08:32
I have to first admit to you that I'm a huge fan of the Founding Fathers.
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我首先要承认，我是国父们的忠实粉丝
08:35
I know they were racists, I know they were sexist,
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我知道他们是种族主义者，他们是男性至上主义者
08:37
but they were great.
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但是他们非常伟大
08:39
I mean, they were so brave and so bold
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我的意思是，他们是如此的英勇、无畏
08:42
and so radical in what they did
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并且积极的从事他们的事业
08:45
that I find myself watching that cheesy musical "1776" every few years,
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我自己每隔几年就要重新去欣赏那个挺土的音乐剧“1776”（美国建国史的音乐剧）
08:48
and it's not because of the music, which is totally forgettable.
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并不是因为音乐好，音乐是完全可以被忽略的
08:51
It's because of what happened in 1776
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是因为1776年围绕着
08:53
with the Founding Fathers.
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建国者们发生的事情
08:55
The Founding Fathers were, for my point of view,
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建国者们，我认为他们是
08:57
the original anatomical activists,
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最早的解剖学活动家
08:59
and this is why.
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这是我爱他们的原因
09:01
What they rejected was an anatomical concept
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他们反对了一个解剖学的概念
09:04
and replaced it with another one
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并且用另一个取而代之
09:06
that was radical and beautiful and held us for 200 years.
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这个新进的美好的概念保持了200年
09:09
So as you all recall,
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大家回忆一下
09:11
what our Founding Fathers were rejecting was a concept of monarchy,
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我们的建国者们反对的是一个君主制度的概念
09:14
and the monarchy was basically based
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并且这个君主制是基于
09:16
on a very simplistic concept of anatomy.
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过于简单化的解剖学概念上的
09:18
The monarchs of the old world
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旧体制下的帝王们
09:20
didn't have a concept of DNA,
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没有DNA的概念
09:22
but they did have a concept of birthright.
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但是他们遵从的是“出身”的理念
09:24
They had a concept of blue blood.
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他们有贵族的概念
09:26
They had the idea that the people who would be in political power
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他们认为，身在政治权力下的人
09:29
should be in political power
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就应该掌握权力
09:31
because of the blood being passed down
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是因为贵族血统要
09:33
from grandfather to father to son and so forth.
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从祖父到父亲到儿子一代代传承
09:36
The Founding Fathers rejected that idea,
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建国者们反对这种观点
09:38
and they replaced it with a new anatomical concept,
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他们用一种新的解剖上的概念取而代之
09:41
and that concept
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那种概念就是
09:43
was all men are created equal.
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人人平等
09:45
They leveled that playing field
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他们消除了等级观念
09:47
and decided the anatomy that mattered
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并且确定解剖学的重要性
09:49
was the commonality of anatomy,
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在于全民平等
09:51
not the difference in anatomy,
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而不是出身的贵贱
09:53
and that was a really radical thing to do.
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在当时那确实是一个很激进的改革
09:56
Now they were doing it in part
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某种程度上，这种改革现在仍然在进行
09:58
because they were part of an Enlightenment system
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因为他们是启蒙运动系统的一部分
10:00
where two things were growing up together.
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两件事情是共同发展的
10:02
And that was democracy growing up,
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民主制度在当时正在形成
10:04
but it was also science growing up at the same time.
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但同时科技也在发展
10:07
And it's really clear, if you look at the history of the Founding Fathers,
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非常明显的是，如果你注意一下建国者的历史
10:09
a lot of them were very interested in science,
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他们中的许多人都对科学很感兴趣
10:11
and they were interested in a concept
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并且他们都对自然主义世界这个概念
10:13
of a naturalistic world.
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很感兴趣
10:15
They were moving away from supernatural explanations,
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他们摒弃超自然的说法
10:18
and they were rejecting things like a supernatural concept of power,
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他们排斥那些关于超自然力量的说法
10:21
where it transmitted
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因为超自然力量的概念被传播
10:23
because of a very vague concept of birthright.
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是基于非常模糊的身世的理念
10:26
They were moving towards a naturalistic concept.
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他们倡导自然主义的概念
10:28
And if you look, for example, in the Declaration of Independence,
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如果你观察会发现，例如在独立宣言中
10:31
they talk about nature and nature's God.
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他们提及到自然和自然之神
10:34
They don't talk about God and God's nature.
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他们没有提到上帝和上帝的自然
10:36
They're talking about the power of nature
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他们提到自然的力量
10:38
to tell us who we are.
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来解释我们是谁
10:40
So as part of that,
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因此作为其中的一部分
10:42
they were coming to us with a concept
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他们为我们带来一个概念
10:44
that was about anatomical commonality.
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那就是人人生来平等
10:46
And in doing so, they were really setting up in a beautiful way
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为此 他们确实为将来的民权运动
10:49
the Civil Rights movement of the future.
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铺垫了一个很美好的道路
10:51
They didn't think of it that way, but they did it for us, and it was great.
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他们想不到将来会怎样，但是他们为我们奠定了基础，这是非常伟大的
10:54
So what happened years afterward?
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那么数年后发生了什么呢？
10:56
What happened was women, for example,
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例如在女性身上都发生了什么
10:58
who wanted the right to vote,
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她们渴望投票的权利
11:00
took the Founding Fathers' concept
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按照建国者的概念
11:02
of anatomical commonality being more important
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人人平等要远重要于
11:04
than anatomical difference
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人的出身
11:06
and said, "The fact that we have a uterus and ovaries
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她们说：“我们有子宫和卵巢是事实
11:08
is not significant enough in terms of a difference
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这些不同完全不足以
11:11
to mean that we shouldn't have the right to vote,
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意味着我们没有投票权
11:13
the right to full citizenship,
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没有充分的公民权利
11:15
the right to own property, etc., etc."
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没有私人财产权等等”
11:17
And women successfully argued that.
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女性的主张获得了成效
11:19
Next came the successful Civil Rights movement,
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接下来便是成功的民权运动
11:22
where we found people like Sojourner Truth
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运动中出现了像索杰纳·特鲁思这样的人
11:24
talking about, "Ain't I a woman?"
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她的名言“我就不是女人吗？”
11:26
We find men
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我们知道男人
11:28
on the marching lines of the Civil Rights movement
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曾经在民权运动的发展路线上
11:30
saying, "I am a man."
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有句名言“我是个男人”
11:32
Again, people of color
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此外，有色人群
11:34
appealing to a commonality of anatomy over a difference of anatomy,
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呼吁人人平等而不应种族歧视
11:36
again, successfully.
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再者，
11:38
We see the same thing with the disability rights movement.
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我们看到同样的成功案例发生在伤残人士的权利运动中
11:42
The problem is, of course,
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问题是，当然
11:44
that, as we begin to look at all that commonality,
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当我们开始去审视所有的公民
11:46
we have to begin to question
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我们不得不开始质疑
11:48
why we maintain certain divisions.
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为什么我们去维护一个固定的界限
11:50
Now mind you, I want to maintain some divisions,
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现在，需要提醒大家的是，我希望去保持一些界限
11:52
anatomically, in our culture.
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身体结构上的，在我们的文化范围被内
11:54
For example, I don't want
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举个例子，我不希望
11:56
to give a fish the same rights as a human.
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给予鱼和人类一样的权利
11:58
I don't want to say we give up entirely on anatomy.
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我不希望我们放弃一切在解剖学上的区分界限
12:00
I don't want to say five-year-olds
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我不希望，一个五岁的孩子
12:02
should be allowed to consent to sex or consent to marry.
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可以被允许有性行为或者说允许结婚
12:05
So there are some anatomical divisions
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所以说，有一些在解剖学上的界限
12:07
that make sense to me and that I think we should retain.
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对我们来说是有意义的，我想那些应该被保留
12:10
But the challenge is trying to figure out which ones they are
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但是，艰巨的任务是试着去找出哪些是应该保留的
12:13
and why do we retain them and do they have meaning.
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为什么我们要保留它们，它们有什么意义
12:16
So let's go back to those two beings
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所以，让我们回到刚才说到的那两人
12:18
conceived at the beginning of this talk.
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就是演讲一开始所虚构的那两个人
12:20
We have two beings, both conceived
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我们有两对夫妇
12:22
in the middle of 1979 on the exact same day.
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都在1979年年中的同一天怀孕了
12:25
Let's imagine one of them, Mary,
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让我们设想一下，玛丽
12:27
is born three months prematurely,
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提前三个月出生了
12:29
so she's born on June 1, 1980.
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因此她出生于1980年6月1日
12:31
Henry, by contrast, is born at term,
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亨利，相反的，足月出生
12:33
so he's born on March 1, 1980.
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他出生于1980年3月1日
12:36
Simply by virtue of the fact
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仅仅是由于
12:38
that Mary was born prematurely three months,
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玛丽早出生了三个月这个事实
12:40
she comes into all sorts of rights
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她获得各种权利的时间
12:42
three months earlier than Henry does --
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要比亨利早三个月
12:45
the right to consent to sex,
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允许有性行为的权利
12:47
the right to vote, the right to drink.
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选举的权利，喝酒的权利
12:49
Henry has to wait for all of that,
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亨利就不得不等待
12:51
not because he's actually any different in age, biologically,
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他的生理学年龄没有任何不同
12:54
except in terms of when he was born.
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只是因为他出生的时间不同
12:56
We find other kinds of weirdness in terms of what their rights are.
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我们还发现其他一些离奇的权利问题
12:59
Henry, by virtue of being assumed to be male --
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亨利，由于被假定为男性--
13:02
although I haven't told you that he's the XY one --
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尽管我没有告诉过大家他是XY型染色体——
13:04
by virtue of being assumed to be male
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由于被假定为男性
13:07
is now liable to be drafted,
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所以现在要应征入伍
13:09
which Mary does not need to worry about.
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玛丽就不需要去担心这些
13:11
Mary, meanwhile, cannot in all the states
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与此同时，玛丽不能在所有的州
13:13
have the same right that Henry has in all the states,
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像亨利一样享受同样权利
13:15
namely, the right to marry.
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也就是，结婚的权利
13:17
Henry can marry in every state a woman,
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亨利可以在任何一个州结婚
13:20
but Mary can only marry today in a few states a woman.
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但是玛丽如今只能在少数几个州娶一位女性
13:24
So we have these anatomical categories that persist
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因此我们所坚持的一些结构上的生物分类
13:27
that are in many ways problematic and questionable.
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它们在很多方面是有问题并且需要质疑的
13:30
And the question to me becomes:
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对我来说，问题就变成了：
13:32
What do we do,
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我们要做什么
13:34
as our science gets to be so good
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当我们的科学在解剖学上
13:36
in looking at anatomy,
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如此先进的时候
13:38
that we reach the point where we have to admit
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我们已经到了不得不承认
13:41
that a democracy that's been based on anatomy
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基于解剖学上的人的民主
13:44
might start falling apart?
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也许正在崩溃的时候
13:46
I don't want to give up the science,
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我不想对科学失去希望
13:48
but at the same time it kind of feels sometimes
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但是同时，有的时候隐约觉得
13:50
like the science is coming out from under us.
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科学的发展是受到我们影响的
13:52
So where do we go?
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因此我们将走向何方？
13:54
It seems like what happens in our culture
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看起来我们的社会
13:56
is a sort of pragmatic attitude:
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有着一种实用主义的态度：
13:58
"Well, we have to draw the line somewhere,
359
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“好，我必须在某处画一条界限，
14:00
so we will draw the line somewhere."
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那么我就在那画一条界限”
14:02
But a lot of people get stuck in a very strange position.
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但是很多人会因此陷在一个非常尴尬的位置
14:04
So for example,
362
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举个例子
14:06
Texas has at one point decided
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德克萨斯州有一个决定
14:08
that what it means to marry a man
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嫁给一个男人
14:10
is to mean that you don't have a Y chromosome,
365
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意味着你没有Y染色体
14:12
and what it means to marry a woman means you do have a Y chromosome.
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同时如果你娶一个女人意味着你有Y染色体
14:14
Now in practice they don't actually test people for their chromosomes.
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现实中，他们实际上不会去检测染色体
14:17
But this is also very bizarre,
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但是这也非常奇怪
14:19
because of the story I told you at the beginning
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因为我一开始告诉了大家那个关于
14:21
about androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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雄激素不敏感综合征的故事
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If we look at one of the founding fathers of modern democracy,
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如有我们看一下现代民主制度的奠基人之一
14:26
Dr. Martin Luther King,
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马丁·路德·金 博士
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he offers us something of a solution in his "I have a dream" speech.
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在他的“我有一个梦想”的演讲中，为我们提供了一个解决方法
14:31
He says we should judge people "based not on the color of their skin,
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他认为我们“不应该根据一个人的肤色
14:34
but on the content of their character,"
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而是应该根据他的品格”去评判一个人
14:36
moving beyond anatomy.
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摒弃人种差异
14:38
And I want to say, "Yeah, that sounds like a really good idea."
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我想说“是的，那听起来确实是个好方法”
14:41
But in practice, how do you do it?
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但实际操作中，你怎么去做？
14:43
How do you judge people based on the content of character?
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你如何根据他的品德去评判他？
14:46
I also want to point out
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我还想指出
14:48
that I'm not sure that is how we should distribute rights in terms of humans,
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我不太确定我们应该如何分配人类的权利
14:51
because, I have to admit, that there are some golden retrievers I know
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因为，我不得不承认，有些黄金猎犬
14:54
that are probably more deserving of social services
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比起我知道的一些人似乎更应该
14:56
than some humans I know.
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得到社会的帮助
14:58
I also want to say there are probably also some yellow Labradors that I know
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我还想说，我知道有些拉布拉多似乎
15:01
that are more capable of informed, intelligent, mature decisions
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比有些40岁左右的人在性关系问题上
15:04
about sexual relations than some 40-year-olds that I know.
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更慎重，更聪明，更能作出成熟的决定
15:07
So how do we operationalize
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因此我们如何去衡量
15:10
the question of content of character?
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品德的问题？
15:12
It turns out to be really difficult.
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结果证明是非常困难的
15:14
And part of me also wonders,
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我还想知道
15:16
what if content of character
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如果品德的好坏
15:18
turns out to be something that's scannable in the future --
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在未来可以被扫描出来——
15:21
able to be seen with an fMRI?
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也许可以用核磁共振成像看见？
15:23
Do we really want to go there?
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我们真的愿意走到那一步吗？
15:25
I'm not sure where we go.
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我不确定我们将走向何方
15:27
What I do know is that it seems to be really important
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我知道的是应该思考一下
15:29
to think about the idea of the United States being in the lead
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美国所引领的民主存在的问题
15:32
of thinking about this issue of democracy.
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看起来是非常重要的
15:34
We've done a really good job struggling with democracy,
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我们在争取民主的问题上已经做得非常好了
15:37
and I think we would do a good job in the future.
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我认为今后同样会做的更好
15:39
We don't have a situation that Iran has, for example,
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我们情况和伊朗不同，比如
15:42
where a man who's sexually attracted to other men
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一个男人在性方面对其他男人有吸引力
15:44
is liable to be murdered,
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那么他是可以被杀的
15:46
unless he's willing to submit to a sex change,
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除非他愿意改变自己的性取向
15:48
in which case he's allowed to live.
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那么他将可以活下来
15:50
We don't have that kind of situation.
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我们没有那样的情况
15:52
I'm glad to say we don't have the kind of situation with --
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我非常高兴的说我们没有那样的情况--
15:55
a surgeon I talked to a few years ago
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对一位外科医生说，那是在数年之前
15:57
who had brought over a set of conjoined twins
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他带来一个连体婴儿
16:00
in order to separate them, partly to make a name for himself.
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希望可以帮助他们分离，某种程度上也想让自己出名
16:02
But when I was on the phone with him,
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但是当我跟他通电话时
16:04
asking why he was going to do this surgery --
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问他为什么希望做这个手术——
16:06
this was a very high-risk surgery --
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因为这是个危险性很高的手术——
16:08
his answer was that, in this other nation,
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他答道，在这个国家
16:10
these children were going to be treated very badly, and so he had to do this.
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这样的孩子将会被残忍的对待，因此他必须要帮助他们这么做
16:13
My response to him was, "Well, have you considered political asylum
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我对他的回答是，“恩，你为他们考虑过政治避难
16:16
instead of a separation surgery?"
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而不是进行手术吗？”
16:19
The United States has offered tremendous possibility
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美国为像这样的孩子保持他们自己的特征
16:21
for allowing people to be the way they are,
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提供了很大的可能
16:24
without having them have to be changed for the sake of the state.
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他们从不用为了国家改变自己的身体
16:27
So I think we have to be in the lead.
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因此我认为我们应该要引领这种思想
16:29
Well, just to close, I want to suggest to you
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好，说到这里，我想提醒大家
16:32
that I've been talking a lot about the fathers.
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我已经谈论了很多前人的事情
16:34
And I want to think about the possibilities
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我还想考虑一下
16:37
of what democracy might look like, or might have looked like,
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民主会是什么样子，或者是已经是什么样子的可能性
16:39
if we had more involved the mothers.
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如果我们可以让更多的母亲参与进来
16:42
And I want to say something a little bit radical for a feminist,
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我还想说对女权主义者有点激进的话
16:45
and that is that I think that there may be
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那就是我认为
16:47
different kinds of insights
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不同的人
16:49
that can come from different kinds of anatomies,
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也许可以带来不同的的观察视角
16:51
particularly when we have people thinking in groups.
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特别是当我们习惯于群体性思维的时候
16:54
Now for years, because I've been interested in intersex,
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我已经对双性人感兴趣很多年了
16:56
I've also been interested in sex difference research.
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也对性别差异也进行了多年的研究
16:58
And one of the things that I've been really interested in
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我十分感兴趣的事情之一是
17:00
is looking at the differences between males and females
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去观察世界范围内男性与女性之间
17:03
in terms of the way they think and operate in the world.
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在思考问题和解决问题上的差别
17:06
And what we know from cross-cultural studies
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我们从跨文化研究中得知
17:09
is that females, on average --
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女性，平均的看——
17:11
not everyone, but on average --
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当然不是每个人，而是平均的看——
17:13
are more inclined to be very attentive
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更倾向于留意
17:15
to complex social relations
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复杂的社会关系
17:17
and to taking care of people
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同时更加关心、同情
17:19
who are basically vulnerable within the group.
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人群中的弱势群体
17:22
And so if we think about that,
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那么如果我们这么认为
17:24
we have an interesting situation on our hands.
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我们发现一个有趣的情况
17:26
Years ago, when I was in graduate school,
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数年前，当我读研究生的时候
17:28
one of my graduate advisers who knew I was interested in feminism --
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我的一位指导教授知道我对女权运动很感兴趣——
17:30
I considered myself a feminist, as I still do --
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我自认是女权主义者，一直是——
17:33
asked a really strange question.
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他问了我一个很怪的问题
17:35
He said, "Tell me what's feminine about feminism."
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他说：“告诉我女权主义女性化在哪里”
17:38
And I thought, "Well that's the dumbest question I've ever heard.
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我想“恩……这是我听过的最让我哑口无言的问题
17:40
Feminism is all about undoing stereotypes about gender,
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女权主义是所有消除陈腐性别观念的一切活动的统称，
17:43
so there's nothing feminine about feminism."
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因此，女权主义不存在女性化”
17:46
But the more I thought about his question,
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但是，进一步解读这个问题，
17:48
the more I thought there might be something feminine about feminism.
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我想的更多的是，也许女权主义存在着一些女性化
17:51
That is to say, there might be something, on average,
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也就是说，也许有一些，总的说来
17:54
different about female brains from male brains
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女性的思维不同于男性的部分
17:57
that makes us more attentive
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使得我们更加富有警惕性
17:59
to deeply complex social relationships
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对于复杂的社会关系
18:02
and more attentive to taking care of the vulnerable.
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并且更加注意关心那些弱势群体
18:05
So whereas the fathers were extremely attentive
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但是前人们细心的
18:08
to figuring out how to protect individuals from the state,
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指出如何保护个人不受国家的影响
18:11
it's possible that if we injected more mothers
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如果我们在这个概念中注入如更多的母性
18:13
into this concept,
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是可能的
18:15
what we would have is more of a concept
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我们将拥有的要远多于一个概念
18:17
of, not just how to protect,
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不仅仅是如何保护
18:19
but how to care for each other.
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而是如何照顾彼此
18:21
And maybe that's where we need to go in the future,
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也许这就是我们未来要走的路
18:24
when we take democracy beyond anatomy,
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当我们抛开人种的分别来讲民主——
18:26
is to think less about the individual body,
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也就是较少的考虑到人的个体
18:28
in terms of the identity,
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关于人的身份特性，
18:30
and think more about those relationships.
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而是更多的考虑人们之间的关系
18:32
So that as we the people try to create a more perfect union,
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因此，当人们试图创造一个更加美好的联合体的时候
18:35
we're thinking about what we do for each other.
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我们需要考虑的是我们为他人都做了什么
18:38
Thank you.
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谢谢
18:40
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Alice Dreger - HistorianAlice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate.
Why you should listen
Alice Dreger is a professor of clinical medical humanities and bioethics at the Feinberg School of Medicine of Northwestern University in Chicago. She describes her focus as "social justice work in medicine and science" through research, writing, speaking and advocacy.
She's written several books that study subjects on the edge of norm-challenging bodies, including One of Us: Conjoined Twins and the Future of Normal and Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex and Intersex in the Age of Ethics.
She says: "The question that has motivated many of my projects is this: Why not change minds instead of bodies?"
JOIN OUR LIVE Q&A with Alice Dreger on June 28, 1pm Eastern, in TED Conversations.
Alice Dreger | Speaker | TED.com